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    Default Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

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    I have been playing Dungeons & Dragons for about half of my life, first introduced to the game at the tail end of v3.5. I have been playing 5E since its release, and it is my favorite version of the game. I feel like the rules are simple, elegant, and cohesive... for the most part. But no game is truly perfect, even to an individual, and there are some rules that I feel were suboptimally implemented. Some build options in the game outshine others, leading to an oversaturation in play. Meanwhile, other build options are so underwhelming that they are neglected an are often called for reworks.

    In this thread, I present my list of houserules (listed in red) which have the sole purpose of trying to make bad options good, and the best options merely great. In doing so, I hope to allow players at my table a greater breadth of concepts to explore, simply by making everything worth playing. These changes are to the monk, which was recently brought to my attention by the illustrious Treantmonk. This is one of my more involved reworks, which basically just cranks up a lot of the numbers so that monks can afford to use their features.

    Martial Arts
    Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons (which are shortswords, and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property).
    You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:
    • You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
    • You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts table. (1d6 at 5th, 1d8 at 9th, 1d10 at 13th, and 1d12 at 17th)
    • When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action on your turn.
    • When you spend 1 or more ki points as part of your action, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action on your turn.

    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    I step up the scaling for damage so that monks can stay competitive with other classes. I also fold in the Ki-Fueled Attacks option feature from Tasha's which makes integrating subclass features easier.

    Ki
    Starting at 2nd level, your training allows you to harness the mystic energy of ki. Your access to this energy is represented by a pool of ki points. You have a number of ki points equal to your Monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
    You can spend these points to fuel various ki features. You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more ki features as you gain levels in this class.
    When you spend a ki point, it is unavailable until you finish a short or long rest, at the end of which you draw all of your expended ki back into yourself. You must spend at least 30 minutes of the rest meditating to regain your ki points.
    Some of your ki features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
    Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The official monk runs out of ki points so fast at low levels that it is depressing. The class features are predicated on you spending at least 1 ki point per turn, and you just can't sustain that at low levels.

    Step of the Wind
    You can spend 1 ki point on your turn to move with unparalleled grace. For that turn, your speed and jump distance are doubled, and your movement doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The official Step of the Wind is unilaterally worse than Cunning Action from the rogue. I know you shouldn't really be comparing features of different classes against one another, but that comparison best illustrates just what's wrong with this feature. I make it a significantly stronger feature to account for the fact that it is drawing from the same resource as the main thing your supposed to be doing.

    Unarmored Movement
    Starting at 2nd level, your speed increases by 10 feet while you are not wearing armor or wielding a shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain monk levels, as shown in the Monk table.
    In addition, when you make an attack with an unarmed strike against a creature, you don’t provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or miss.
    At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move.
    Spoiler: Notes
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    The entire playstyle of the monk is: move in, punch, punch, move out. This is much the same as the rogue. The difference is that the only native way a monk had to do that drew from the most important resource they had. To circumvent this, most people saw Mobile as a feat tax the monk had to take as early as possible. With that in mind, I just give them the important part of mobile for free. We can do it with the swashbuckler, so why can't we do it with the monk?

    Monastic Tradition
    When you reach 3rd level, you commit yourself to a monastic tradition. Your choice grants you features at 3rd level and again at 6th, 13th, and 17th level.
    Spoiler: Notes
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    I move a Tradition feature to make room for a tier break feature below.

    Ability Score Improvement
    When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 10th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    I add an impactful feature at 10th level, alongside Purity of Body. This is the same level that a rogue gets an extra ASI. I would rather add a unique feature, but I ran out of ideas after hammering out all the ones below.

    Stunning Strike
    Starting at 5th level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent’s body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack as part of your action, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Perhaps the most unexpected change, a nerf to the monk's iconic feature. As I mention above, the monk's playstyle is: move in, punch, punch, move out. At 5th level, every time you punch you are also potentially debuffing your target. This gives the monk a reputation as a minor battlefield controller. This reputation is somewhat misguided, but it manifests in one very specific thing: the monk is expected to stunlock bosses and eat through Legendary Resistance. I want to reign in any feature that just gets spammed at the table. Basically, I want the monk to feel like they can do other things besides burning ki to Flurry of Stuns every turn, without making it more expensive to use this feature.

    Diamond Soul
    Beginning at 9th level, your mastery of ki grants you proficiency in all saving throws.
    Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 ki point to reroll it and take the second result.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Another feature that adds to the monks reputation. It is this feature which leads to the idea that monks have good saves. Sadly it doesn't come into play until mid-Tier 3, after many campaigns end. I give it as a kind of Tier 2 capstone.

    Abundant Step
    At 11th level, you can use a bonus action on your turn and spend 1 ki point to gain a magical fly speed equal to your walking speed until the end of your turn. While you have this fly speed, you also gain the effect of a freedom of movement spell.
    When your turn ends, you float gently to the ground if you are still aloft.

    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    A brand new tier break feature. Veterans of v3.5 or Pathfinder might recognize the name, but the mechanics have been redone. The idea here is that barbarians get better durability at 11th, fighters get better damage, and rogues get better utility, so the monk should get better mobility. Now you can run up into the air and try to stun a flying enemy, or slip through magical restraints to attack your foe.

    Decisive Strike
    By 14th level, you have learned the truth inherent to practicing a single kick one thousand times. Once on your turn, when you make an attack roll with an unarmed strike or monk weapon and miss, you can reroll it and take the second result.

    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    One unfortunate consequence of my change to stunning strike is that if you miss with an attack, you have lost half of your stun attempts for that turn. This is to make that less of a concern. Shamelessly stolen from the Arcane Archer, but given during a more appropriate tier.

    Ki Sense
    At 15th level, you can open your senses to see the ki of other creatures. You can use a bonus action on your turn and spend 2 ki points to gain truesight to a range of 30 feet for 1 minute.

    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    I fully admit that by this point I just needed to make levels feel meaningful. This is a mirror to the rogue's Blindsense, which is to deal with some of the hurdles magical enemies can throw at you.

    Empty Body
    Beginning at 18th level, you can use a bonus action on your turn and spend 4 ki points to become invisible for 1 minute. During that time, you also have resistance to all damage but force damage.
    Additionally, you can spend 8 ki points to cast the astral projection spell, without needing material components. When you do so, you can’t take any other creatures with you.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    At this level, and for this cost, I think you should be able to do this without having to give up your Attack action.

    Perfect Self
    At 20th level, you attain perfect control over the flow of your own ki. You can use Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind without spending ki points.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    For your capstone, you can use your basic ki features for free.
    Last edited by thoroughlyS; 2021-05-06 at 04:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Issues:
    Monk DPR falls off in T3/4. As they reach "I can flurry every round", their DPR stops growing with more Ki.

    Your T3/4 boosts are... a reroll on one attack on their turn (14), going invisible in combat every combat (18), and capstone (which is a bit late).

    Stunning Strike:
    You wording doesn't match the spoiler comments. Did you intend this be once per round? Your wording doesn't do that.

    It makes it once per attack during your attack action, I think. Except bonus actions are a kind of action, so arguably it just blocks it from reactions? Or maybe not. It is unclear.


    Also, note that Gloom 3/Fighter 2/Monk 6 becomes a better stunner than the Monk 11; it can alpha-strike 6 stuns on round 1.

    Perfect Self
    This becomes a bit non-linear in effect, sort of like damage reduction. Subclasses that spend 1 ki repeatedly get huge boosts to endurance, a similar subclass that spends it in bigger chunks gets less of a boost.

    If this was in the base class, subclasses and the like would factor it in. But you'd have to audit every subclass.

    Ki Sense
    "until the end of your turn." sad face; between turns you have no ability to see them.

    It is a "ping". Are you daredevil or something?

    ---

    Things to consider.

    1) Make stunning strike 1/action or bonus action. This removes boost from 3rd attack in an action, and makes the monk attack (2 tries to land) and bonus (2 tries to land) interesting.

    Also maybe make it trigger "for free" on a natural 20 (not a crit, as that makes expanded crit range a bit too synergystic) not counting towards that. A little bit of serindipity is fun.

    2) Some kind of targetted DPR boost at 11 and 17. My variant gave the monk a free Ki to spend on anything except healing on every one of their turns.

    In theory subclass features fill in that gap, but classes without subclasses at 11/17 tend to get huge raw power boosts, and subclass features tend not to measure up.

    3) To fix Step of the Wind, I waited until 11, where I let the monk take 2 different bonus action Ki abilities.

    4) One change I did was to make Str be a somewhat useful 3rd tier attribute by letting you add it to damage when you are unarmored (via MA). Your AC is Dex+Wis, and your damage is Dex+Str.

    The main goal was to make the 8 strength monk less of a thing; modest investment in strength makes you hit harder. Dex is still stricktly better, as it adds to attacks, damage and AC.

    5) My version of Perfect Self was 2 free Ki on your turn (to spend on anything, including healing now, upgrading the level 11 feature)

    6) At 17, I added the ability to burn Ki to reroll attacks you make or attacks against you. Limited only by spending Ki. It fits the approaching perfection thing.

    That is your level 14 feature here, but on steriods. Also, the ability to reroll to fish for 20s to stun is amusing if expensive. The free Ki from the level 11 feature, together with your large Ki pool, makes something that burns Ki like crazy fun to use.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Monk DPR falls off in T3/4. As they reach "I can flurry every round", their DPR stops growing with more Ki.
    I meant to elaborate on this, but guess I forgot. My goal with this rework is to redefine the monk's main action routine on each turn. Ideally, the monk's turn is move, Attack action (attempt stunning strikes after 5th level), bonus action martial arts attack, move out. I don't want them relying on Flurry of Blows for reasonable damage. But I want to do this in a way that isn't just more attacks like the fighter. That's why I let them retry an attack at 14th, and why I give them basically permanent advantage with a bonus action minute long invisibility. taking their improved chance to hit into account, I want them to deal respectable damage. After looking at the numbers again, I can agree that they still underperform.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Stunning Strike:
    You wording doesn't match the spoiler comments. Did you intend this be once per round? Your wording doesn't do that.

    It makes it once per attack during your attack action, I think. Except bonus actions are a kind of action, so arguably it just blocks it from reactions? Or maybe not. It is unclear.


    Also, note that Gloom 3/Fighter 2/Monk 6 becomes a better stunner than the Monk 11; it can alpha-strike 6 stuns on round 1.
    The intention is that a monk can only attempt to stun when they make an attack as part of their main action, not with a bonus action or reaction. The phrase "your action" precludes bonus actions. Also, even in the printed game, a Gloom Stalker 3/Fighter 2/ Monk 5+ can make more stun attempts than a Monk 10+ (5 vs 4). The only difference is neither can make stun attempts with a bonus action using my rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Perfect Self
    This becomes a bit non-linear in effect, sort of like damage reduction. Subclasses that spend 1 ki repeatedly get huge boosts to endurance, a similar subclass that spends it in bigger chunks gets less of a boost.

    If this was in the base class, subclasses and the like would factor it in. But you'd have to audit every subclass.
    I am intending to do that, but I also feel that the main benefit of this is free stuns and movement each turn. Another poster in my other thread said they felt like this was too much, and it seems like you agree. I like your idea for a free "temporary ki point" each turn...
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Ki Sense
    "until the end of your turn." sad face; between turns you have no ability to see them.

    It is a "ping". Are you daredevil or something?
    I wasn't sure how strong I wanted this to be, do you think it could be more like Empty Body (a minute duration)? Also Daredevil's power is always active and more like blindsight. This is more like the Byakugan from Naruto, I guess?



    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    1) Make stunning strike 1/action or bonus action. This removes boost from 3rd attack in an action, and makes the monk attack (2 tries to land) and bonus (2 tries to land) interesting.

    Also maybe make it trigger "for free" on a natural 20 (not a crit, as that makes expanded crit range a bit too synergystic) not counting towards that. A little bit of serindipity is fun.
    I don't like that because my version of the monk has the potential to be very bonus action heavy, and I want to let the monk get their use out of the Attack action. Finding extra attacks was already an avenue monks could go for, so I don't feel bad about it still existing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    2) Some kind of targetted DPR boost at 11 and 17. My variant gave the monk a free Ki to spend on anything except healing on every one of their turns.

    In theory subclass features fill in that gap, but classes without subclasses at 11/17 tend to get huge raw power boosts, and subclass features tend not to measure up.
    I don't think answer should be "more ki" in the middle levels. The changes I introduce are done to make it more likely that a monk can reach a target and land a hit. This boosts DPR indirectly in a way that fits the theme of the monk. I am open to other suggestions for features though, especially because I'd like to replace the ASI at 10th.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    3) To fix Step of the Wind, I waited until 11, where I let the monk take 2 different bonus action Ki abilities.
    But Step of the Wind is horrible when you get it. Why wait so long to fix it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    4) One change I did was to make Str be a somewhat useful 3rd tier attribute by letting you add it to damage when you are unarmored (via MA). Your AC is Dex+Wis, and your damage is Dex+Str.

    The main goal was to make the 8 strength monk less of a thing; modest investment in strength makes you hit harder. Dex is still stricktly better, as it adds to attacks, damage and AC.
    I don't really like that. The monk already cares about two stats why give them a feature that only works if they bump a third?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    5) My version of Perfect Self was 2 free Ki on your turn (to spend on anything, including healing now, upgrading the level 11 feature)
    As I mentioned above, I like this a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    6) At 17, I added the ability to burn Ki to reroll attacks you make or attacks against you. Limited only by spending Ki. It fits the approaching perfection thing.

    That is your level 14 feature here, but on steriods. Also, the ability to reroll to fish for 20s to stun is amusing if expensive. The free Ki from the level 11 feature, together with your large Ki pool, makes something that burns Ki like crazy fun to use.
    Ok, so it seems like you agree with boosting accuracy, but you want them to be able to do it more than once a turn? I could see that...
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    I have reigned in the capstone so that now you can only use the basic ki features for free.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    I meant to elaborate on this, but guess I forgot. My goal with this rework is to redefine the monk's main action routine on each turn. Ideally, the monk's turn is move, Attack action (attempt stunning strikes after 5th level), bonus action martial arts attack, move out. I don't want them relying on Flurry of Blows for reasonable damage. But I want to do this in a way that isn't just more attacks like the fighter.
    Why not? Their main damage feature is literally called "flurry of blows." Two is not a flurry. If anything, they should have more attacks than the fighter. In 3.path they were designed to emulate the massive number of attacks available to two-weapon fighters, which is (with feats) more than twice what baseline fighters get. They draw thematically from anime and martial arts movies where "impossibly fast combatant hits a guy a thousand times in a second" is second only to "exactly one single perfect attack and then the other guy dies about five seconds later" in terms of demonstrating mastery. It's actually kind of goofy that they fall so far behind fighters in baseline 5e, and IMO the most obvious part of any monk fix is correcting that. Conveniently, adding a third hit to either flurry or their base attack routine at level 11 is exactly what they need to become competitive with other martials in 3-4, damage-wise, as well.

    (Alternately you could make them iaijutsu masters who make one attack per round, but that's a complete mechanical rework and is honestly better represented by reflavoring the rogue.)

    I wasn't sure how strong I wanted this to be, do you think it could be more like Empty Body (a minute duration)? Also Daredevil's power is always active and more like blindsight. This is more like the Byakugan from Naruto, I guess?
    I'd start with "until the beginning of your next turn" so you can keep it up permanently but have to keep spending ki, and see how the play feels from there.

    Beyond that, I really like the Step of the Wind changes; Abundant Step and Ki Sense are also good changes to give them more out of combat utility, always a sticking point for martials. That said, I might tweak Abundant Step a bit more. The freedom of movement is excellent, but the discount fly speed is bad. You can already run along any surface, jump utterly stupid distances, and take no damage from falling (along with potentially being able to jump from shadow to shadow or fly for real). Fly that ends when your turn does doesn't actually give you any new tools, it just says "a bunch of your old tools are now obsolete and you accomplish the same thing in a less fun and thematic way that is now vulnerable to antimagic and dispelling." It would be reasonable to make it just 1 ki for freedom of movement, or perhaps just add freedom of movement to Step of the Wind at level 11.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    I don't want to just add more attacks, because that was how they decided to define the fighter in 5E. For better or worse, that is not the monk's thing anymore, just like metamagic is now the sorcerer's thing. Giving them an extra attack at 11th level (either on their action or on Flurry of Blows) is just making them mini-fighters. And I want this to be a monk which doesn't rely on Flurry of Blows. I want to move them away from using it every turn.

    As for Abundant Step, gaining a flying speed was how the Psi Warrior gave better mobility, which seemed fitting. I originally was going to make it teleporting (like in v3.5 and Pathfinder), but I liked the idea that they were still traveling from point to point. For what it's worth, this doesn't replace your old movement features, so you don't always need to rely on it. This is for stunning the dragon and slipping out of Bigby's hand.
    Last edited by thoroughlyS; 2023-11-07 at 02:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    I don't really like that. The monk already cares about two stats why give them a feature that only works if they bump a third?
    1) A 12 under most systems is cheap, and it grants a +1 to damage.
    2) It opens up a new monk build; a strength/dex monk that focuses on damage.
    3) As it stands, strength is less useful for monks than most other combatants. So investing in it is sub-optimal. And the fact that martial artists are all weaklings feels bad to me.

    By adding strength+dex to monk unarmed damage, I bump monk damage by a few points under a "typical" monk build "for free". And I encourage monks that aren't physically weak.

    To me, there is nothing wrong with a class having a use for 3, 4 or 5 of the attributes. You just (a) don't assume they are high (I assume a 12 or 14 strength) for how much they boost, (b) have to make sure if they are high it doesn't break things.

    A Tortle 16/16 monk under "add both" deals 1d4+6 damage with a punch, times 2, at level 1. That is strong, but not game breaking.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    I have reduced the cost of Abundant Step, and reworked Ki Sense to be 2 ki points for 1 minute of truesight.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    I'm not sure I buy into the assertion about Ki points that "the class features are predicated around spending at least 1 ki every round." At least, not at low levels, when +WIS mod to your ki pool is the most impactful. At that level, a monk's reliable 2 attacks per round are at their most significant relative to other classes' melee capabilities, and the ki features they have are potent enough relative to the power curve of those levels that they should, I think, be sparse in uses. It's not as though they're long-rest based like the poor Sorcerers.

    It's for similar reasons that I think the proposed low-level mobility changes are overkill. I'm not unsympathetic to giving monks more skirmishing potential at the early stages of the game, but giving them mini-Mobile AND folding both aspects of Step of the Wind into one AND removing Step of the Wind's action economy cost AND keeping the same base movement increases takes things too far in the opposite direction, and all in one level. We've gone from Monks falling behind Cunning Action (you invited the comparison) to them significantly outstripping it. (This complaint is definitely not a paid shill for the Rogues Guild to keep Rogues as the most efficiently mobile martial, no siree...)

    I apprectiate the shaving down of stunning strike, since it's such a ki-hog as printed.

    I don't have any problems with proposed higher-level changes. They all seem like either clear improvements or preference-based lateral moves.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    It's for similar reasons that I think the proposed low-level mobility changes are overkill. I'm not unsympathetic to giving monks more skirmishing potential at the early stages of the game, but giving them mini-Mobile AND folding both aspects of Step of the Wind into one AND removing Step of the Wind's action economy cost AND keeping the same base movement increases takes things too far in the opposite direction, and all in one level. We've gone from Monks falling behind Cunning Action (you invited the comparison) to them significantly outstripping it.
    Cunning Action is free, and a rogue will reliably use it nearly every turn in every encounter (barring use of subclass features or two-weapon fighting). If a 2nd-level monk wants to use Step of the Wind every turn, they will spend basically all of their ki points on it (assuming two encounters per short rest with an average encounter length of three rounds).

    The mini-Mobile is because most people view it as a feat tax on the monk. I alleviate that tax.

    If you think my changes are too much, I recommend making Step of the Wind a bonus action again, but that's basically it.
    Last edited by thoroughlyS; 2021-05-06 at 08:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    Cunning Action is free, and a rogue will reliably use it nearly every turn in every encounter (barring use of subclass features or two-weapon fighting). If a 2nd-level monk wants to use Step of the Wind every turn, they will spend basically all of their ki points on it (assuming two encounters per short rest with an average encounter length of three rounds).

    The mini-Mobile is because most people view it as a feat tax on the monk. I alleviate that tax.

    If you think my changes are too much, I recommend making Step of the Wind a bonus action again, but that's basically it.
    Ok. I think I understood your reasoning correctly on the first read, then, and we just have very diverging ideas; I don't think Monks should be using Ki abilities every round; they already outstrip the Rogue in other areas, so having to spend a currency to perform on par with the Rogue in this department seems fair to me. I also don't really believe there is such a thing as a "feat tax", but that's an argument for another thread.
    Last edited by Catullus64; 2021-05-06 at 08:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    just dropping in to say that this is the simplest and best-argued Monk revision i've seen (and i'm thinking of trying to sell my DM on it!).
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    A tangential point in another thread reminded me to ask whether you think Stillness of Mind is fine as-is. I've always thought it was a bit clunky, as it requires an action to end a frightened or charmed effect... but Frightened, and even more so Charmed, are two of the conditions most likely to control what you do with your action in the first place. Either keeping the action cost but adding in a proviso that makes sure you can always use it, or ditching the action cost and giving it limited use (either flat # of uses or Ki cost).
    Last edited by Catullus64; 2021-05-11 at 11:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by sethdmichaels View Post
    just dropping in to say that this is the simplest and best-argued Monk revision i've seen (and i'm thinking of trying to sell my DM on it!).
    Thank you. My aim for these tweaks is to make things work like I assume the designers expected they would. Because of that, my changes are usually pretty simple and intuitive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    A tangential point in another thread reminded me to ask whether you think Stillness of Mind is fine as-is.
    Stillness of Mind is fine as is because it is a ribbon. The real benefit at that level is Evasion.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Overall I think these are good good changes. The MA scaling and the feat at 10th are the two most-needed changes imo. Abundant Step is nice. Everything else is... eh. I'm not super into it. Just seems like a lot of extra stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    (1d6 at 5th, 1d8 at 9th, 1d10 at 13th, and 1d12 at 17th)
    I like this. I like that its just a slight ramping up of DPR that starts after 5th level when the monk starts to need it.
    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    equal to your Monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
    Awkward. Mostly benefits the monk in the early levels (before 10) when they're already pretty strong.

    Maybe instead there could be something like a 10th level 1/LR features that allows you to refresh all your ki points as an action without require a short rest. That'd be about as strong in practice and imo would do more to mitigate the real issue with ki: that you run out FAST if you don't get a Short Rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    on your turn to move with unparalleled grace. For that turn, your speed and jump distance are doubled, and your movement doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.
    This seems fine, I don't think SOTW sees much use currently.

    I do think its incredibly wrong-headed to compare this ability to cunning action, which is a way larger part of the rogue's kit relatively speaking. It's also worth pointing out that part of what makes SOTW good with base monk is that it is combined with Monk's huge unarmored movement buffs. A monk who has +15 movement gets a lot more mileage out of a BA disengage than a rogue does.

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    In addition, when you make an attack with an unarmed strike against a creature, you don’t provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or miss.
    Completely unnecessary. Monks don't need to weave in and out of combat, and if you want to do that, several subclasses have more interesting ways of doing this already.

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    Starting at 5th level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent’s body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack as part of your action, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn.
    I don't like hand-holding mechanics. If people want to waste all their ki on SS that's on them, its not a fault of the system. Personally I'm wholly against reducing monk's flexibility, as that's one of it's core appeals.
    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    Beginning at 9th level, your mastery of ki grants you proficiency in all saving throws.
    Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 ki point to reroll it and take the second result.
    Hm. One of the things I conventionally really like about monk is that it has a few features like this at high levels that are actually really appealing. Personally I don't see a need to give this to the monk this early. They're plenty strong at 9th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    By 14th level, you have learned the truth inherent to practicing a single kick one thousand times. Once on your turn, when you make an attack roll with an unarmed strike or monk weapon and miss, you can reroll it and take the second result.
    Kensei has this exact ability at 17th. Kinda seems meh.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Wait, I think I'm misunderstanding something.

    When you spend ki as a part of your action you can strike, but the only feature that spends ki as a part of an action is The stunning strike?

    Oh, and props on a VERY readable Homebrew! For that reason alone I am far more likely to present this to my players than many other monk tweaks out there. Ease of access is on point, my dude!

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Completely unnecessary. Monks don't need to weave in and out of combat, and if you want to do that, several subclasses have more interesting ways of doing this already.
    Given how prevalent the opinion is that Mobility is a feat tax for monks, I would guess more people feel like monk should be dipping in-and-out of melee. This is my solution to the same problem Treantmonk and Kane0 see with the monk's action economy: if you want to benefit from the monk's mobility you need to lose out on damage output (which I think lower than something like a TWF rogue).
    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    I don't like hand-holding mechanics. If people want to waste all their ki on SS that's on them, its not a fault of the system. Personally I'm wholly against reducing monk's flexibility, as that's one of it's core appeals.
    Actually, this one is an artifact from when I had a different capstone. I can probably remove it here.
    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Hm. One of the things I conventionally really like about monk is that it has a few features like this at high levels that are actually really appealing. Personally I don't see a need to give this to the monk this early. They're plenty strong at 9th level.
    I agree with Treantmonk that one of the monks supposed strengths (its high defenses) doesn't really see play at most tables. Sure, they have Evasion before Tier 3, but so does the rogue. I shuffle it around so that an average monk player might be able to benefit from it before the campaign ends.
    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Kensei has this exact ability at 17th. Kinda seems meh.
    My tweaks are primarily focused around the PHB. If a player ever came to me with a kensei, I'd rework the sublcass as well.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    When you spend ki as a part of your action you can strike, but the only feature that spends ki as a part of an action is The stunning strike?
    That is an adaptation of one of the optional class features from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. It is also worth noting that most subclasses for monk give ki features that use an action.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    I fall into the silent majority that has played with a fair few monks and thinks they're completely fine - both when analysed from the perspective of player satisfaction and from the perspective of flat numerical analysis. There are plentiful tools at a DM's disposal to make the PHB monk work (short rest lots, provide foes with mediocre con, don't let players watch video by bald white youtube man). But either way, like, Monk is not issue-free, and you can't just hurl it at every single campaign ever and be certain that the player will enjoy it every time. I think this goes a good distance towards fixing that.

    Here's my notes
    • I like the unarmored movement change and would certainly lobby for it if they were rebuilding monk from scratch. However, you already get to disengage freely when using the drunken master, open hand, astral self, and arguably mercy and sun soul. It also basically negates the buff to step of the wind.
      Since it's kind of overlapping with benefits granted by other features I think I'd prefer a feature that had some kind of tradeoff, so that the subclass features listed above still feel strong. I've always liked the effect "you can expend 15ft of movement to move 5 feet without provoking opportunity attacks". Maybe that would be nice instead??
    • The powerspike at 9th is absolutely huge. That should come at 11th instead! I'd move diamond soul to 11th, and tack the new abundant step feature onto unarmored movement.
    • I would ignore what others are saying about Decisive Strike because it is a monstrously powerful effect and essentially grants one free attack per turn. Your monk's damage remains rock solid at higher levels. The fact it overlaps with Kensei doesn't matter too much because the two effects can proc off each other's bonus attacks.
    • Personally I wouldn't add Wis mod to Ki, I'd allow monks to recover an amount of Ki equal to their Wis mod as an action once per short or long rest. This is because I'm hesitant about keeping their "nova potential" in check at about 5th level. I like the buff to multiclassing though, it's wise. Perhaps Level + Prof bonus instead??


    All in all, I think it's just about sat in the goldilocks zone of reworks - it doesn't change too much, and doesn't change too little. If I had to guess where its power sat in the grand scheme of things, I'd say it is probably overshadowing rogue significantly in combat, and is easily keeping up with an average barbarian or fighter. Looks alright, and I prefer these changes to the ones in Tasha's. Much better focused on their issues at higher levels.
    Last edited by luuma; 2021-09-29 at 03:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by luuma View Post
    I like the unarmored movement change and would certainly lobby for it if they were rebuilding monk from scratch. However, you already get to disengage freely when using the drunken master, open hand, astral self, and arguably mercy and sun soul. It also basically negates the buff to step of the wind.
    Since it's kind of overlapping with benefits granted by other features I think I'd prefer a feature that had some kind of tradeoff, so that the subclass features listed above still feel strong. I've always liked the effect "you can expend 15ft of movement to move 5 feet without provoking opportunity attacks". Maybe that would be nice instead??
    Ideally, I would look over subclasses and make tweaks to them as necessary. I think the Open Hand feature for example is still useful because removing a reaction can be so much more than just Disengaging for you. Similarly, while my version of Step of the Wind and Unarmored Movement have overlapping benefits it is not redundant because they are times when you may want to not provoke opportunity attacks while not spending attacks (like if you want to run past a bunch of people and hit a backrow combatant).
    Quote Originally Posted by luuma View Post
    The powerspike at 9th is absolutely huge. That should come at 11th instead! I'd move diamond soul to 11th, and tack the new abundant step feature onto unarmored movement.
    That is an interesting idea, but I would like to give Diamond Soul as early as feasible, because it is a hallmark feature of the monk. They are supposed to have good saves.
    Quote Originally Posted by luuma View Post
    I would ignore what others are saying about Decisive Strike because it is a monstrously powerful effect and essentially grants one free attack per turn. Your monk's damage remains rock solid at higher levels. The fact it overlaps with Kensei doesn't matter too much because the two effects can proc off each other's bonus attacks.
    This is a case where I would probably tweak the subclass. I just haven't had a kensei at my table.
    Quote Originally Posted by luuma View Post
    Personally I wouldn't add Wis mod to Ki, I'd allow monks to recover an amount of Ki equal to their Wis mod as an action once per short or long rest. This is because I'm hesitant about keeping their "nova potential" in check at about 5th level. I like the buff to multiclassing though, it's wise. Perhaps Level + Prof bonus instead??
    That seems overly complicated, especially considering I have toned down the most spammable thing a monk does already. I would postulate that you won't see a 5th level monk do more in any one combat using my system or yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by luuma View Post
    All in all, I think it's just about sat in the goldilocks zone of reworks - it doesn't change too much, and doesn't change too little. If I had to guess where its power sat in the grand scheme of things, I'd say it is probably overshadowing rogue significantly in combat, and is easily keeping up with an average barbarian or fighter. Looks alright, and I prefer these changes to the ones in Tasha's. Much better focused on their issues at higher levels.
    I wouldn't discount rogues so much. Two-weapon fighting significantly impacts their damage, if that is what a character wants to do.
    Last edited by thoroughlyS; 2021-12-13 at 03:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    I think I stand by most of my points. Personally I still think 9th shouldn't be such a gigantic powerspike level - it'd be nice to give diamond soul earlier, but diamond soul is exceptional, and 9th level is a pretty arbitrary level to grant it an outstanding save feature, an improved martial arts die, and wall-running.

    In an ideal world, the free "mobile" benefit wouldn't tread on any other monk feature's toes at all. I appreciate that each of those benefits has a very slight niche over each other, but I think we both agree there's still a lot of overlap there. Regardless, it is not your fault that this necessary monk capability is absent from the core class and peppered sporadically through the subclasses and ki features. I certainly can't complain that you've added it in!

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    That seems overly complicated, especially considering I have toned down the most spammable thing a monk does already. I would postulate that you won't see a 5th level monk do more in any one combat using my system or yours.
    This varies table to table - when I run the game, I allow roughly one short rest per combat, so an extra 3 ki would definitely do more! Changing it to "recover n ki as an action" means that this variance is removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    I wouldn't discount rogues so much. Two-weapon fighting significantly impacts their damage, if that is what a character wants to do.
    This really isn't true unless they have another source of advantage. Hiding as a bonus action is usually about the same increase to DPR as a single extra d6 attack -even if they take some feat like crossbow expert over an ASI. Rogues are generally better off with a d8 light crossbow or rapier, and they'd fall behind this monk at 5th and remain behind til about 11th or so
    Last edited by luuma; 2021-09-30 at 04:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    A part of me wants to see if we can multi-class this with Berserkers to create a Maksed wrestler as presented by Tulok the Barbarian. The 11th level of Monk and it's special ability makes me think of all the high flying moves possible.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by luuma View Post
    I think I stand by most of my points. Personally I still think 9th shouldn't be such a gigantic powerspike level - it'd be nice to give diamond soul earlier, but diamond soul is exceptional, and 9th level is a pretty arbitrary level to grant it an outstanding save feature, an improved martial arts die, and wall-running.
    In my attempts to hack away at 5e, I have tended to put "you are good at saves" abilities at level 11 or higher in martial classes.

    This (a) prevents double-dipping via multiclassing, and (b) helps populate the back-10, and (c) lines up with when spellcasters get their T3/4 spells.

    The Paladin existing level 6 ability is the exception to this.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    I'd be wary of Step of the Wind as written because you can easily get a BA Dash and so you can get truly absurd movement.

    Although I do tend to agree that Mobile is kind of a feat tax, many subclasses have ways of handling it so I think a better solution might be to follow the Fighter's ASI progression. That way you can grab mobile easily if you want it, but the subclass features that already grant something similar mean that they can spend those ASI.

    I like Abundant Step, but given that Monks have slow fall (I think you have them keeping their abilities that weren't listed) I wouldn't even bother with the gently float to the ground. If through whatever shenanigans they get super high in the air and slow fall can't cover the fall damage so be it.

    Decisive Strike is a copy of Kensei's Unerring Accuracy so I would probably try for something else.

    My last comment is that because of the change in Ki (more at early levels, less at high levels) you might want to readjust the ki for Empty Body. Spending 8 ki when you had 18 to use Astral Projection is one thing, spending 8 ki when you have 11 ki is something else entirely. Even the 4 ki to transform is a much bigger cost then it was before. Similarly ki hungry subclasses have been unintentionally(?) hurt by this ki change and would potentially need to be adjusted.
    Last edited by Sorinth; 2021-10-19 at 12:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    I like Abundant Step, but given that Monks have slow fall (I think you have them keeping their abilities that weren't listed) I wouldn't even bother with the gently float to the ground. If through whatever shenanigans they get super high in the air and slow fall can't cover the fall damage so be it.
    This way they don't have to sacrifice their reaction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    Decisive Strike is a copy of Kensei's Unerring Accuracy so I would probably try for something else.
    As mentioned above, in an ideal world I would rework the subclasses as well. The Kensei would get a different thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    My last comment is that because of the change in Ki (more at early levels, less at high levels) you might want to readjust the ki for Empty Body. Spending 8 ki when you had 18 to use Astral Projection is one thing, spending 8 ki when you have 11 ki is something else entirely. Even the 4 ki to transform is a much bigger cost then it was before. Similarly ki hungry subclasses have been unintentionally(?) hurt by this ki change and would potentially need to be adjusted.
    My change gives monks higher ki at all levels. At 18th level, you have 18 + WIS mod, not anywhere near 11.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5.1E — Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    This way they don't have to sacrifice their reaction.

    As mentioned above, in an ideal world I would rework the subclasses as well. The Kensei would get a different thing.

    My change gives monks higher ki at all levels. At 18th level, you have 18 + WIS mod, not anywhere near 11.
    Sorry I misread the Ki to be proficiency bonus + Wisdom.

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