Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 78
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Northwest AR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by prototype00 View Post
    I wonder whats a good bonus action use for a Warlock (aside from spells, that is). Telekinetic seems interesting (and is a half feat for mental stats) if you're playing a spiked growth Genie-Lock (and for repositioning squishy party members in melee).
    Telekinetic is a fantastic choice for just about any non-Chainlock, or even Chainlocks who don't have the Investment Invocation. It's a good choice for many casters, in fact. Most casters lack good options for frequent use of their Bonus Action, and even the ones that do have some (like Clerics and Druids, or Warlocks with Hex) have to expend limited resources on them. So picking up something useful to do with your Bonus Action from range that doesn't cost resources is great. The fact that it's also a half-feat for your primary casting stat, and gets you a useful cantrip, is even better.

    Maddening Hex Invocation is another option for weaponizing your Warlock's Bonus Action, provided the target is currently under the influence of your Hex, Hexblade's Curse, or similar.

    Relentless Hex Invocation is similar to Maddening, trading out the damage against the cursed target for increased mobility through Bonus Action teleportation. (This can be hard to pull off in practice though, since the BA to move your Hex to a new target competes with the BA needed to teleport close to that new target.)

    Shield Master's Bonus Action Shove is an option for a melee Warlock with Shield proficiency, like a Hexblade or a Warlock with a Fighter/Cleric dip. You just need a high enough STR/Athletics bonus to capitalize on it. Unlike Telekinetic, it can be used not only to shove enemies to move them, but also to shove them prone.

    Polearm Master is an option for a Sword Pact Warlock.

    Goblin Warlocks can Disengage or Hide with their Bonus Actions.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2021-04-12 at 11:11 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by prototype00 View Post
    I wonder whats a good bonus action use for a Warlock (aside from spells, that is). Telekinetic seems interesting (and is a half feat for mental stats) if you're playing a spiked growth Genie-Lock (and for repositioning squishy party members in melee).
    Celestial Warlocks have Healing Light; it's better than Healing Word to bring back fallen Allies, but most of the time you are only really using them on turns where you have a fallen ally (or if you yourself are low on hit points, specially if you have the Gift of the Ever Living Ones invocation).

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Fathomless Warlock uses a bonus action to attack with its tentacle and a bonus action to summon it. You can use it proficiency/day, so at higher levels your bonus action will be spoken for most of the time.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2017

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I know this; what still has not been determined is WHAT happens when you take the Bonus Action? Does the Familiar attack immediately or on its own turn, using its own action? (this is how an Artificer's pet works, IIRC) )If immediately, does it use its reaction, or is it for free?

    IF the attack happens the moment you take your bonus action (whether for free or at the cost of the familiar's reaction), then yes, Familiar could use its own Action to turn invisible and attack again, with advantage, on the following turn when you take the Bonus Action again. In fact, if it's entirely for free and it goes before you on initiative, it could use all its actions in combat to ready an action to become invisible right after it attacks at your command, functionally being invisible for the entire combat.



    I agree, that's my interpretation as well, and the one I'm assuming in this thread. I just make a note that other people interpret it differently (and, in fact, on my first read of the ability that's how I interpreted it also, it was only upon later reflection that I, somewhat grudgingly, accepted that the intent is to have the familiar use its own action to attack after you use your bonus action).

    The fact that the ability says "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.", and NOT "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to attack" is a strong indication that this is the intended meaning


    My interpretation is definitely different. I think the intent is that familiar attacks when the Warlock uses their action.

    Familiars have their own turn, with their own action, and with just Pact of the Chain the Warlock can "forgo one attack" to let the familiar attack with its reaction.

    This is necessary for a lot of logistical reasons. If the warlock simply commanded the attack, then the sprite or the warlock were knocked unconscious, then the action is wasted. And the sprite may go before them, so you make a command, that then has to be remembered and carried out after every single turn on the board? Makes no sense.

    It makes far more sense that Investment is a boost, changing it from being an action (because a chain pact warlock only has one attack, so in practical terms it was taking an action originally) to a bonus action, and still using the reaction.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post
    My interpretation is definitely different. I think the intent is that familiar attacks when the Warlock uses their action.

    Familiars have their own turn, with their own action, and with just Pact of the Chain the Warlock can "forgo one attack" to let the familiar attack with its reaction.

    This is necessary for a lot of logistical reasons. If the warlock simply commanded the attack, then the sprite or the warlock were knocked unconscious, then the action is wasted. And the sprite may go before them, so you make a command, that then has to be remembered and carried out after every single turn on the board? Makes no sense.

    It makes far more sense that Investment is a boost, changing it from being an action (because a chain pact warlock only has one attack, so in practical terms it was taking an action originally) to a bonus action, and still using the reaction.
    I get where you're coming from, but I feel that if the intent was for the familiar to use its reaction then it would explicitly say so in the invocation. It doesn't say that. Instead it says you command it to take the Attack action. It can only do that on its turn, otherwise it would cost its reaction.

    I am aware that Pact of the Chain has language for granting the familiar a reaction by the Warlock taking their own Attack action, but I don't think they would rely on awareness of that language to define the invocation correctly. Instead they would follow the "It does what it says, not anything it doesn't say" style, which would expect us to recognize that a creature can only take the Attack action on its turn.

    Note that the invocation explicitly says you command the familiar to take "the Attack action." Not like the language in the Pact of the Chain that says "use its reaction to make one attack of its own." The Attack action is specifically an action, not a reaction, and it is not synonymous with "making an attack."

    It's also not disqualifying that the action would be wasted if the familiar was knocked unconscious before its turn rolled around. Look at the Command spell. If you Command a target to Grovel, it falls prone on its turn and then ends its turn... unless your party kills it first, in which case your spell and the action you used to cast it were wasted. I don't actually see any clause in the Find Familiar or Pact of the Chain that would cause the familiar to vanish if the Warlock is knocked unconscious, so as far as I can see it would still take the Attack action on its turn if the Warlock got knocked unconscious between the bonus action to command and the familiar's actual turn.
    Last edited by Evaar; 2021-04-12 at 07:02 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2017

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Evaar View Post
    I get where you're coming from, but I feel that if the intent was for the familiar to use its reaction then it would explicitly say so in the invocation. It doesn't say that. Instead it says you command it to take the Attack action. It can only do that on its turn, otherwise it would cost its reaction.

    I am aware that Pact of the Chain has language for granting the familiar a reaction by the Warlock taking their own Attack action, but I don't think they would rely on awareness of that language to define the invocation correctly. Instead they would follow the "It does what it says, not anything it doesn't say" style, which would expect us to recognize that a creature can only take the Attack action on its turn.

    Note that the invocation explicitly says you command the familiar to take "the Attack action." Not like the language in the Pact of the Chain that says "use its reaction to make one attack of its own." The Attack action is specifically an action, not a reaction, and it is not synonymous with "making an attack."

    It's also not disqualifying that the action would be wasted if the familiar was knocked unconscious before its turn rolled around. Look at the Command spell. If you Command a target to Grovel, it falls prone on its turn and then ends its turn... unless your party kills it first, in which case your spell and the action you used to cast it were wasted. I don't actually see any clause in the Find Familiar or Pact of the Chain that would cause the familiar to vanish if the Warlock is knocked unconscious, so as far as I can see it would still take the Attack action on its turn if the Warlock got knocked unconscious between the bonus action to command and the familiar's actual turn.

    I see your logic, but... why not just say the Familiar can attack then? Why make it cost a bonus action on top of the invocation?

    I'm thinking they copied the ranger without remembering that the Familiar isn't taking its turn on the same turn as you, which makes a big difference. And, there is absolutely nothing that says you can't take the attack action when it isn't your turn. You just normally can't take actions, but nothing would prevent an ability from granting an ally an out of turn action. The phrasing is a bit odd, but I believe things like flinds and such do allow for off-turn actions. Or Orc Warchiefs.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post
    I see your logic, but... why not just say the Familiar can attack then? Why make it cost a bonus action on top of the invocation?
    Because designers thought it would be too powerful to do so, probably. The invocation is good enough at that cost, so I suppose they were right. And it's not like a bonus action is a HUGE cost; as noted above, most Warlocks don't have a reliable use of their bonus actions, this invocation gives one. On the other hand, if you DO have a good reliable use of the bonus action (see the Fathomless Warlock, for instance) the invocation loses a lot of it's value, and it would do so whether the familiar attacked on its own turn or immediately.

    I'm thinking they copied the ranger without remembering that the Familiar isn't taking its turn on the same turn as you, which makes a big difference. And, there is absolutely nothing that says you can't take the attack action when it isn't your turn. You just normally can't take actions, but nothing would prevent an ability from granting an ally an out of turn action. The phrasing is a bit odd, but I believe things like flinds and such do allow for off-turn actions. Or Orc Warchiefs.
    Neither Flinds nor Orc Warchiefs allow that.

    I'd say the difference in phrasing:
    "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action."
    Vs.

    "when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack with its reaction."
    Makes the RAW pretty clear.

    I also just realized; the Familiar CAN attack twice in the same round, but at the considerable cost of your action, the familiar's reaction, your bonus action, and the familiar action. Still, there might be situations where that's useful, specially if for some reason you cannot take any action on the round that's more effective than another poison attempt.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2021-04-12 at 11:51 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I also just realized; the Familiar CAN attack twice in the same round, but at the considerable cost of your action, the familiar's reaction, your bonus action, and the familiar action. Still, there might be situations where that's useful, specially if for some reason you cannot take any action on the round that's more effective than another poison attempt.
    For example, if your familiar is far away from you and you're not in the fight at all. E.g. it's escorting an elemental to a remote fight while you take a short rest for more elementals.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

    Why Mark of Storms Warlocks Are Better Tanks Than Most Fighters

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post
    I see your logic, but... why not just say the Familiar can attack then? Why make it cost a bonus action on top of the invocation?

    I'm thinking they copied the ranger without remembering that the Familiar isn't taking its turn on the same turn as you, which makes a big difference. And, there is absolutely nothing that says you can't take the attack action when it isn't your turn. You just normally can't take actions, but nothing would prevent an ability from granting an ally an out of turn action. The phrasing is a bit odd, but I believe things like flinds and such do allow for off-turn actions. Or Orc Warchiefs.
    I don’t see anything in the Flind or Orc War Chief that does that. The Flind allows bites as a bonus action, or forces an enemy to make a melee weapon attack on its own turn. Nothing saying “Take the Attack action.”

    Of course there’s no rule saying you specifically can’t take the Attack action outside of your turn. The rule is that you take actions on your turn.

    On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.
    Reactions and actions are two different things, which is why the Incapacitated condition says you can’t take “actions or reactions.” Reactions can happen outside your turn. Actions can’t. The Attack action is an action.

    It doesn’t allow you to just have the familiar attack without costing a bonus action because that’s how it works for all the other pet based classes, like the Beast Master or the Battle Smith. Certain classes get access to more situational pets like the Hexblade’s Accursed Specter that requires only a verbal command (costing no action) but in general permanent pets cost part of the character’s action economy to utilize.

    I think I’ve made my case pretty conclusively. If you can find me an example of something causing an Attack action (not just “an attack”) outside of a creature’s turn, we can revisit.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2017

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Interesting, I never noticed this before (probably because attacking with a familiar isn't usually a very solid strategy). If I understand correct, you can use an action (which I suppose counts as you taking the Attack action, e.g. if you have feats like Shield Master or PAM; does it use just one of your attacks if you have more than one, or does it use all of them?) in order to have your familiar attack as a reaction (so presumably the attack is right away). With the Investment invocation, you can use a bonus action to command your familiar to take the Attack action, in which case they probably don't do so until their turn.

    So from this is seems like you could spend an action to make your familiar attack, then have them use their action to turn invisible on their turn. If you have the Investment invocation, then you could just have them attack twice, once as a reaction and once as an action. Of course, you're probably using your action for Eldritch Blast, unless you're having your familiar scout ahead.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    For example, if your familiar is far away from you and you're not in the fight at all. E.g. it's escorting an elemental to a remote fight while you take a short rest for more elementals.
    Hmm, a few things to check with your DM about this particular circumstance:

    1- are you using Voice of the Chain Master to know what's going on? I understand the RAW is ambiguous about whether it just extends the range of the communication and the sense sharing, or whether it also gets rid of the action cost of the sense sharing. If your DM interprets it as you still having to use your action every round to see through your familiar's eyes, you wouldn't be able to take the attack action. On the other hand, this same DM might let your familiar say "we are under attack" telepathically and you'd start taking the attack action even without knowing anything about what's going on at the battle site. But it does feel weird to me to "be in initiative order" under those circumstances.

    2- does taking the Attack action interrupt your short rest, even if, in fact YOU are not doing anything except taking the abstract Attack action? A DM might rule that being involved in combat, even from a distance, would interrupt the short rest. Can you read a book while taking the Attack action every turn? :)
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2021-04-13 at 12:29 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Interesting, I never noticed this before (probably because attacking with a familiar isn't usually a very solid strategy). If I understand correct, you can use an action (which I suppose counts as you taking the Attack action, e.g. if you have feats like Shield Master or PAM; does it use just one of your attacks if you have more than one, or does it use all of them?) in order to have your familiar attack as a reaction (so presumably the attack is right away).
    Not quite. You take the Attack action. You can forgo one of the attacks that action would give you in order to cause your familiar to attack as a reaction.

    So if you’re a straight class Warlock, that’s your whole Attack action. If you’re a Warlock 3/Fighter 5, you would still make one attack as part of the Attack action.

    By my reading you definitely can use the Shield Master bonus action, as that only requires that you take the Attack action. Which you did.

    PAM is trickier because it says you have to take the Attack action and only attack with a qualifying weapon. So if you take the attack action and never actually make an attack roll with a qualifying weapon, I don’t think that counts. If you had Extra Attack from a multiclass and do make an attack with a qualifying weapon, I would probably count it... because you aren’t wielding your familiar; you forwent one of your attacks in order to allow it to make an attack.

    But this is pretty unlikely to come up because what even is this build where you use a Polearm and go Chain Pact and want your familiar to make attacks instead of you?

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2021

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by prototype00 View Post
    I think it’s going to be a bit of a hard sell to DMs to say that after the sprite takes it’s “attack action” according to Investment that it still has yet another action to take on the same turn to go invisible.
    I don't see why that is a problem. The cost for the familiar's attack is your action (or bonus action) PERIOD
    Remember that Find familiar says the familiar has his own turn and initiative, so commanding him to attack on the warlock's turn shouldn't interfere with the familiar's turn.


    EDIT: I read the other posts and kinda understand now where the confusion is coming from ("taking an attack action" vs "making an attack"). I still think that it makes no logical sense to forgo both your bonus action and the familiar's turn to make an attack, BUT now I'm not convinced my original interpretation is RAW (it's barely even RAI for that matter)
    Last edited by javianhalt; 2021-04-13 at 08:28 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by prototype00 View Post
    I wonder whats a good bonus action use for a Warlock (aside from spells, that is).
    Moving Hex to a new target is the traditional one, but if you're making Sprite attacks instead of your own attacks, that becomes less of a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by javianhalt View Post
    EDIT: I read the other posts and kinda understand now where the confusion is coming from ("taking an attack action" vs "making an attack"). I still think that it makes no logical sense to forgo both your bonus action and the familiar's turn to make an attack, BUT now I'm not convinced my original interpretation is RAW (it's barely even RAI for that matter)
    Taking the Attack Action (on any other action) outside your turn has no impact on your turns actions. If that's how the feature words the ability of the Sprite to attack with your bonus action, it definitely still gets its own full turn as well. It would have to explicitly call out that it takes the Attack Action on its turn, or that it takes the Attack Action (implied now), but loses its action on its turn.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Taking the Attack Action (on any other action) outside your turn has no impact on your turns actions. If that's how the feature words the ability of the Sprite to attack with your bonus action, it definitely still gets its own full turn as well. It would have to explicitly call out that it takes the Attack Action on its turn, or that it takes the Attack Action (implied now), but loses its action on its turn.
    Actions, such as the Attack action, are different things from reactions or non-actions. Making an attack is not the same thing as taking the Attack action. Actions are things you do on your turn.

    If you don’t believe that is accurate, please cite an example of an action - such as Dodge, Attack, Cast A Spell, etc - that you use outside your turn and which doesn’t have exception language built into the effect (i.e. if it says “the creature immediately takes the Dodge action, no action required” or something like that).

    Quote Originally Posted by javianhalt View Post
    EDIT: I read the other posts and kinda understand now where the confusion is coming from ("taking an attack action" vs "making an attack"). I still think that it makes no logical sense to forgo both your bonus action and the familiar's turn to make an attack, BUT now I'm not convinced my original interpretation is RAW (it's barely even RAI for that matter)
    I don't see why that's confusing. It works the same way as the Battle Smith Artificer's Steel Defender, or the Beast Master Ranger's updated pet options. You take a bonus action to command it, and then the pet takes the resulting action on its turn. The only differences are 1) the familiar has a different initiative and 2) the familiar could already take non-Dodge actions on its turn because it was specific to Pact of the Chain that you could have it attack at all in the first place, and it was before they had any standardized approach to how they wanted pets to work.

    If you don't think the familiar's attack action is worth both your bonus action and the familiar's action, then don't take the invocation. However, the Sprite's attack action (as boosted by Investment) is much more valuable than the Steel Defender's or the Beast of the Land's, for example. To my mind it's worth both the action economy requirement and the invocation to access.
    Last edited by Evaar; 2021-04-13 at 11:59 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Evaar View Post
    Actions, such as the Attack action, are different things from reactions or non-actions. Making an attack is not the same thing as taking the Attack action. Actions are things you do on your turn.

    If you don’t believe that is accurate, please cite an example of an action - such as Dodge, Attack, Cast A Spell, etc - that you use outside your turn and which doesn’t have exception language built into the effect (i.e. if it says “the creature immediately takes the Dodge action, no action required” or something like that).
    That is not correct. On your turn, you can take an action. Nothing says actions are only things you can take on your turn. If some other ability gives you the ability to take an action outside your turn (without using your reaction), there's no limitation that says you cannot.

    If you don't believe that to be accurate, please cite where in the PHB it says that actions can only occur on your turn.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    That is not correct. On your turn, you can take an action. Nothing says actions are only things you can take on your turn. If some other ability gives you the ability to take an action outside your turn (without using your reaction), there's no limitation that says you cannot.

    If you don't believe that to be accurate, please cite where in the PHB it says that actions can only occur on your turn.
    I did above already.

    On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.
    Or from "Actions in Combat"

    When you take an action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.
    Or from "Reactions"

    A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's.
    So we have definitions of Actions and they're only mentioned as occurring on your turn. And we have a definition of Reactions, specifying it can happen on someone else's turn. So unless you have something that contradicts that, the clear conclusion is actions are things you do on your turn, and reactions are the exception that proves that rule.
    Last edited by Evaar; 2021-04-13 at 12:21 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Those say on your turn, you can take actions. Not that you can only take actions on your turn. There's no general rule in the latter format.

    So if something gives you an action out of turn, you're fine and it doesn't have to specify it doesn't use your on turn action.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    We really need a Sage Advice or an errata for this...

    Sadly, I don't have a Twitter account, so I can't ask the designers this question myself.
    Last edited by ATHATH; 2021-04-13 at 02:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Is this a good OJEBUWIP WHAT IN THE NINE ABYSSES, or a bad OJFBUEWIP WHAT IN THE NINE ABYSSES?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Jake View Post
    "Oh no, I'm bleeding out of my eyes...it's only now that I see that the delivery fee isn't a substitute for tipping your pizza guy!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Arguss View Post
    "No" means "yes".
    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    My other idea was to be a troglodyte were-cockroach and just smell bad in people's squares.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Evaar View Post
    I did above already.

    Or from "Actions in Combat"

    Or from "Reactions"

    So we have definitions of Actions and they're only mentioned as occurring on your turn. And we have a definition of Reactions, specifying it can happen on someone else's turn. So unless you have something that contradicts that, the clear conclusion is actions are things you do on your turn, and reactions are the exception that proves that rule.
    Isn't that a bit like arguing that you can only use an action (e.g. cast a spell, Dodge, ready an action) after initiative is rolled? Clearly you can cast a spell outside of combat; Dodging and readying actions are more controversial but there's no conceptual reason why you couldn't.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

    Why Mark of Storms Warlocks Are Better Tanks Than Most Fighters

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    I'd like to point out that the Investment invocation doesn't say that the familiar takes the Attack action when you use your bonus action.

    It says that you tell them to do so. Never gives it the chance of attacking out of turn (like Evaar said this is the same wording as the Steel Defender feature).
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

    Want to try a WereWolf or Mafia game? Do you already know it and want to play it? Nothing currently recruiting.


  22. - Top - End - #52
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    That is not correct. On your turn, you can take an action. Nothing says actions are only things you can take on your turn. If some other ability gives you the ability to take an action outside your turn (without using your reaction), there's no limitation that says you cannot.

    If you don't believe that to be accurate, please cite where in the PHB it says that actions can only occur on your turn.
    I believe the only example of Actions taken in combat outside one's turn which are not reactions are Legendary Actions. So, are you claiming that this invocation turns your Familiar into a Legendary Creature? :p
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2021-04-13 at 02:47 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Isn't that a bit like arguing that you can only use an action (e.g. cast a spell, Dodge, ready an action) after initiative is rolled? Clearly you can cast a spell outside of combat; Dodging and readying actions are more controversial but there's no conceptual reason why you couldn't.
    No, because turns are specific to combat. See "The Order Of Combat" in the PHB.

    When there is no combat, you instead refer to the "How To Play" section. You just say what you want to do and the DM decides what happens.

    If someone could get around to citing an actual example of taking an action outside of your turn in combat that would be great. Otherwise, I again assert that reactions are the exception that proves the rule (in the original meaning of that phrase).

    If anyone wants to make an actual cited argument to the contrary rather than just asserting it without any evidence or example, I'd be happy to hear it.

    EDIT

    Because I'm obsessing at this point, here's a relevant Crawford tweet:
    Remember that you can take a bonus action only on your own turn.
    Here's the language from the "Bonus Actions" section of "The Order Of Combat":
    Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action.
    Here again is the language from the "Your Turn" section of "The Order Of Combat":
    On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action.
    Nothing in the Bonus Action language explicitly says you can ONLY take a bonus action on your turn, just that some abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. Nothing in the Your Turn section explicitly says you can ONLY take an action on your turn, just that on your turn you can take one action.

    And yet, you can only take a bonus action on your turn. Are we good? Is this conclusive enough yet?
    Last edited by Evaar; 2021-04-13 at 02:50 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2017

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    I can't find anything that explicitly says that actions can only happen on your turn. I also can't find anything that grants an action when it isn't your turn...except maybe the samurai? They have Strength Before Death which uses your reaction to grant you a full turn, but that doesn't prove anything since it is basically just adding a new turn to the initiative count.

    Personally, I don't see any reason to have a familiar take a turn separate from you anyways, which neatly solves the problem. And I'd be a bit miffed with using my bonus action to declare an attack, then potentially having nothing happen because my familiar doesn't get a turn or gets taken out.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Evaar View Post
    If anyone wants to make an actual cited argument to the contrary rather than just asserting it without any evidence or example, I'd be happy to hear it.
    The burden of the proof so far remains on you. What you've cited so far shows my position to be correct.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    The burden of the proof so far remains on you. What you've cited so far shows my position to be correct.
    It absolutely doesn't.

    I even linked Crawford above stating you can only take a bonus action on your turn. Is there some reason an action should be held to a different standard?

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    I just skimmed the post, but I didn't see another point on the familiar covered. It isn't what it is. You can re-summon your familiar and all of a sudden you have which ever of the familiars you want at this time. It's an imp today because your running Descent. Could be a sprite tomorrow or a quasit or whatever. What your familiar is isn't a choose once, stuck forever deal.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    The burden of the proof so far remains on you. What you've cited so far shows my position to be correct.
    Except you didn't support your position with anything while Evaar brought examples for their position both from ruled and other features.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    I just skimmed the post, but I didn't see another point on the familiar covered. It isn't what it is. You can re-summon your familiar and all of a sudden you have which ever of the familiars you want at this time. It's an imp today because your running Descent. Could be a sprite tomorrow or a quasit or whatever. What your familiar is isn't a choose once, stuck forever deal.
    The problem is that to change forms you need to spend a slot and money, while to simply dismiss/summon it you spend nothing.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

    Want to try a WereWolf or Mafia game? Do you already know it and want to play it? Nothing currently recruiting.


  29. - Top - End - #59
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Northwest AR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    The problem is that to change forms you need to spend a slot and money
    Money, yes. It costs 10 gp in materials per casting. (Which can be a lot at very low levels, but isn't that burdensome once you get past the first few levels, provided your DM doesn't make those specific material components exceedingly hard to come by.)

    However, you don't necessarily have to spend a slot, since Chainlocks and Wizards can cast Find Familiar as a Ritual.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2021-04-13 at 04:54 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    Money, yes. It costs 10 gp in materials a pop. (Which can be a lot at very low levels, but isn't that much once you get past the first few levels.)

    However, you don't necessarily have to spend a slot, since Chainlocks and Wizards can cast Find Familiar as a Ritual.
    Right! Somehow I forgot that one of the iconic ritual spells was a ritual spell xD thanks.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

    Want to try a WereWolf or Mafia game? Do you already know it and want to play it? Nothing currently recruiting.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •