The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

[Evaar]

Hi.

This struck me yesterday and I haven't really seen anyone talking about it. Everyone sort of presumes the Imp is the best pet for the Pact of the Chain Warlock.

With the release of Tasha's, I would say it's the Sprite and it's because of the new invocation: Investment of the Chain Master.

There are two main things we care about here. First, you can command your familiar to make an attack with a bonus action. Second, if your familiar would force a saving throw, it uses your spell save DC.

The Sprite has a fly speed of 40 and its primary attack option is its Shortbow, for which it has a range of 40 feet, +6 to hit, and deals 1 damage. Not super accurate at higher levels, but workable. We don't care about the damage. I don't see any other familiars with a ranged attack, and the little things are fragile so we want to be able to keep it out of harm's way. The rider on the attack forces a target it hits to make a Constitution saving throw against DC 10 --- but wait, replace that with your spell save DC because of the invocation -- or be poisoned for 1 minute. No follow-up saves.

If it rolls 5 or lower, it's unconscious unless it takes damage or someone spends an action waking it up. That's just gravy. Even if it wakes up, it's still poisoned.

The specific language of the poisoned condition here is extremely potent. I think it clearly was designed around the Save DC being very easy to pass. With this invocation, that is no longer the case. Pretty soon the DM WILL start targeting it, and when that happens it's going to die. Hide it around corners as best you can. But even if it dies, that's one hit your allies didn't take.

Unfortunately, it does rely on a bonus action to use so that doesn't benefit all patrons equally. Fathomless, for example, has a pretty busy bonus action already with its tentacle proficiency times per day. However the Celestial, Fiend, or Genie can all make excellent use of this. Also consider the Celestial's access to healing in coordination with the Gift of the Ever Living Ones invocation, which maximizes healing rolls you receive.

But this isn't here to propose a full build. I just wanted to stick up for Griffin McElroy's least favorite soda - Sprite.

[OldTrees1]

Oh yes they can be pretty good. Personally I am still a fan of the Pseudodragon for the telepathy.

[Greywander]

Between its alignment detection and ranged poison attack, the sprite can be pretty useful. I don't think it's better than the imp, but it can be used for a few things that the imp can't, so it depends on what you're trying to do.

Something to remember is that the way the poison ability is worded, the target has to roll a 5 or less to fall asleep. The DC doesn't matter; it's not failing the DC by 5 or more, it's rolling 5 or less regardless of the DC. Even without any bonus to the save, that's only going to happen 25% of the time. A lot of monsters have really good CON as well, making it impossible to roll a 5 or lower.

Just something to keep in mind. It's not as though this makes the sprite useless, but the sleep aspect of their poison is unreliable at best, and useless at worst. If that's why you're taking a sprite, you should reconsider. But the sprite does offer some other benefits that aren't found on the imp.

[Evaar]

Something to remember is that the way the poison ability is worded, the target has to roll a 5 or less to fall asleep.

Yes, I went over that in the original post. The sleep effect is just a side benefit, we're mainly here for the poisoned condition.

I don't see why the imp is better at this point. Before Tasha's, sure, but at this point the Sprite provides unmatched combat ability and it's still an invisible scout. The imp is more resilient, but I'm not clear what that resilience really does for us if it's not otherwise threatening.

Also, I feel like this point isn't really sinking in - the poison has a duration of 1 minute with no follow up saves. Can anyone find another source of the poisoned condition that lasts for the entirety of combat that doesn't allow saves each turn? Or an equivalent effect like 1 minute blindness with no follow up saves?

[ATHATH]

Yes, I went over that in the original post. The sleep effect is just a side benefit, we're mainly here for the poisoned condition.

I don't see why the imp is better at this point. Before Tasha's, sure, but at this point the Sprite provides unmatched combat ability and it's still an invisible scout. The imp is more resilient, but I'm not clear what that resilience really does for us if it's not otherwise threatening.

The sprite also has extra utility in the form of its Heart Sight ability.

Something else that's often overlooked is that although the sprite can't use its action to attack, it CAN still use its action to become invisible again after you use your bonus action to make it attack, effectively giving it advantage on the first attack you order it to make each round. Your familiar might or might not even be able to hold its action to become invisible again immediately after you order it to attack (instead of having to wait for its turn to come around in the initiative order), depending on if your DM rules that using your bonus action to command your familiar to attack consumes your familiar's reaction like sacrificing one of your attacks from the Attack action does.

Sprites combo especially well with putrid undead from the Summon Undead spell, which can force poisoned enemies to make a save vs. paralysis on each hit. Things get even nastier if you throw an Oathbreaker Paladin into the mix, whose Aura of Hate can buff the damage of your undead minion and who can deal massive damage to paralyzed enemies with crit-smites. It's a shame that Pact Magic spell slots cap out at 5th level instead of 6th- Warlock summoners kind of get their gimmicks handicapped in higher level play due to their Tasha's summons (aside from the ones from Summon Fiend) never getting their third attacks (as far as I'm aware, Warlocks can't upcast spells into their Mystic Arcanum slots).

The sprite itself can also theoretically get in on that Aura of Hate action if you can make it count as a fiend (Find Familiar says that the familiar "is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast"; I don't know how that clause would interact with a familiar whose form wouldn't normally count as a beast), although I wouldn't recommend getting it that close to the action.

[Evaar]

Something else that's often overlooked is that although the sprite can't use its action to attack, it CAN still use its action to become invisible again after you use your bonus action to make it attack, effectively giving it advantage on the first attack you order it to make each round. Your familiar might or might not even be able to hold its action to become invisible again immediately after you order it to attack (instead of having to wait for its turn to come around in the initiative order), depending on if your DM rules that using your bonus action to command your familiar to attack consumes your familiar's reaction like sacrificing one of your attacks from the Attack action does.

My reading is the sprite takes the attack action on its turn. If it took the Sprite's reaction and was used immediately, I expect the invocation would explicitly say that. Instead the language is more similar to what we see in the Battle Smith or Beast Master (but slightly different because it's presented in the invocation rather than as part of the feature). But I do agree the language could be clearer, and I had the same confusion when I first read it.

Sprites combo especially well with putrid undead from the Summon Undead spell, which can force poisoned enemies to make a save vs. paralysis on each hit.

Good find!

(as far as I'm aware, Warlocks can't upcast spells into their Mystic Arcanum slots).

Correct.

The sprite itself can also theoretically get in on that Aura of Hate action if you can make it count as a fiend (Find Familiar says that the familiar "is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast"; I don't know how that clause would interact with a familiar whose form wouldn't normally count as a beast), although I wouldn't recommend getting it that close to the action.

Eh, technically no. Aura of Hate works on melee weapon damage rolls. Maybe your DM would let you give it a dagger, but the shortbow doesn't qualify. You could do this with an Imp if you really wanted to, but as you point out you don't want any familiar that close to the action at that level.

[ATHATH]

My reading is the sprite takes the attack action on its turn. If it took the Sprite's reaction and was used immediately, I expect the invocation would explicitly say that. Instead the language is more similar to what we see in the Battle Smith or Beast Master (but slightly different because it's presented in the invocation rather than as part of the feature). But I do agree the language could be clearer, and I had the same confusion when I first read it.

Hm, maybe this is worth asking Sage Advice over.

Eh, technically no. Aura of Hate works on melee weapon damage rolls. Maybe your DM would let you give it a dagger, but the shortbow doesn't qualify. You could do this with an Imp if you really wanted to, but as you point out you don't want any familiar that close to the action at that level.

Ah, forgot about that bit. Nice catch.

[Chaosmancer]

I finally took this with my sprite, (I was moving things around and I really want her to have some more combat ability, because she has been an invaluable scout and source of knowledge). I've altered the invocation a little bit, but first some other things to talk about.

The familiar's turn is weird, and the rules are weird here. So, the familiar takes its own turn, according to the spell. It is supposed to have its own initiative and its own action and bonus action. The Pact of the Chain allows you to forgo your attack action (or one of your attacks if you somehow have multiple) to allow your familiar to take the attack action. Investment allows you to have your familiar take the attack action as a bonus action.

At no point is any of this called out as a reaction, so the Sprite can take their turn, and turn invisible, then you can command them to attack on your turn.


Now, none of this is going to apply at my table, because to keep our lives simpler, we've always just had the familiar take their turn simultaneously with the warlock, and Pact of the chain just let them attack. So, since the bonus action attack wasn't being used we did two other things. 1) A bonus to hit and damage equal to Cha Mod. 2) A bonus to hp equal to Cha plus level.

That second one, combined with Inspiring Leader gives my familiar a respectable 28 effective hp. However, the poison save is something I have talked to the DM about and we may end up nerfing it if it becomes too much. It has the potential to be disruptively powerful

[Tanarii]

Something to remember is that the way the poison ability is worded, the target has to roll a 5 or less to fall asleep. The DC doesn't matter; it's not failing the DC by 5 or more, it's rolling 5 or less regardless of the DC. Even without any bonus to the save, that's only going to happen 25% of the time. A lot of monsters have really good CON as well, making it impossible to roll a 5 or lower.

Rolling a 5 or lower will always be a 25% chance. But the Sprite's ability says the result must be a 5 or lower, so it's as you say.

I was confused at first, then realized you and the OP aren't stating the feature as written.

[prototype00]

As mentioned in the other Warlock thread, my main concern is the accuracy of the Sprite. That Arrow is only ever going to be a +6 all the way up to T4 (some fair number of my games are in T3) with absolutely nothing boosting it and by the end of T2, +6 is really not going to cut it to hit anything. Like you will be hitting (I predict) around 25% - 30% of the time, is that enough for a whole invocation?

On the other hand, your DC is going up, maybe that makes up for it?

[diplomancer]

As mentioned in the other Warlock thread, my main concern is the accuracy of the Sprite. That Arrow is only ever going to be a +6 all the way up to T4 (some fair number of my games are in T3) with absolutely nothing boosting it and by the end of T2, +6 is really not going to cut it to hit anything. Like you will be hitting (I predict) around 25% - 30% of the time, is that enough for a whole invocation?

On the other hand, your DC is going up, maybe that makes up for it?

If your DM rules that the attack happens on your turn, as a result of your bonus action, leaving the sprite's turn free, he can use his action to become invisible, thus attacking with advantage; that helps the accuracy remain relevant until higher levels.

[Sherlockpwns]

As mentioned in the other Warlock thread, my main concern is the accuracy of the Sprite. That Arrow is only ever going to be a +6 all the way up to T4 (some fair number of my games are in T3) with absolutely nothing boosting it and by the end of T2, +6 is really not going to cut it to hit anything. Like you will be hitting (I predict) around 25% - 30% of the time, is that enough for a whole invocation?

On the other hand, your DC is going up, maybe that makes up for it?

A few things: DM dependent, but you can theoretically equip the sprite with a magic bow.

This ability shines brightest when you get it at level 5 and is certainly accurate enough trough level 11. So like many abilities it has a power curve. After that you’ll find poison immune and resistance more and the accuracy will drop. At worst this means you only attack with poison every OTHER turn. Shoot, go invis next turn, shoot again the following turn. +6 with adv is plenty to carry you in t3.

As previously stated summon undead becomes the bread and butter here, which also is going to start to drop off at t3.

So yeah, this combo is great (I wrote a thread about it already), but it’s similar to the moon Druid at t1. At t2 against poisonable enemies it is going to wreck house. At t3 you’ll use it less. If you ever reach t4 you’d use it rarely if ever. But that’s ok, it’s the origin of your story not the end point.

[diplomancer]

A few things: DM dependent, but you can theoretically equip the sprite with a magic bow.

This ability shines brightest when you get it at level 5 and is certainly accurate enough trough level 11. So like many abilities it has a power curve. After that you’ll find poison immune and resistance more and the accuracy will drop. At worst this means you only attack with poison every OTHER turn. Shoot, go invis next turn, shoot again the following turn. +6 with adv is plenty to carry you in t3.

It's not worth it to give up your one attack in a turn to have advantage on that same one attack on your next turn; your chances of hitting once are exactly the same (with the disadvantage that you will always be hitting your enemy later rather than sooner, and that's usually pretty bad), and your chances of hitting twice go from "low" to "zero". Of course, being invisible does have defensive advantages, but it's a rare combat that the sprite can't get full cover in between shooting, considering his size.

As previously stated summon undead becomes the bread and butter here, which also is going to start to drop off at t3.

So yeah, this combo is great (I wrote a thread about it already), but it’s similar to the moon Druid at t1. At t2 against poisonable enemies it is going to wreck house. At t3 you’ll use it less. If you ever reach t4 you’d use it rarely if ever. But that’s ok, it’s the origin of your story not the end point.

The advantage that an invocation (or a spell) has over a subclass feature is that you can swap it out at any level up; so get Investment of the Chain Master early, and drop it when enemies AC start to get too high.

[javianhalt]

The advantage that an invocation (or a spell) has over a subclass feature is that you can swap it out at any level up; so get Investment of the Chain Master early, and drop it when enemies AC start to get too high.

This!
The versatility with invocations allows you to build yourself through the levels instead of being locked into something or having to plan ahead too many levels.

[diplomancer]

This!
The versatility with invocations allows you to build yourself through the levels instead of being locked into something or having to plan ahead too many levels.

It's why I believe the over-emphasis on static"builds" over dynamic "characters" tends to short-sell the Warlock compared to other classes.

[follacchioso]

That's right, although it is such a good invocation that I would keep it anyway, even in tier 4. At that point you are probably using the familiar mainly for spying and gathering information, while you eat crisps in your lair on the other side of the plane, and the ability to knock out a low CR minion or guard is always useful.

[Greywander]

Something to remember is that thanks to Bounded Accuracy weak enemies are always just as weak. Any enemy your familiar could take on at low to mid levels they will still be able to take on at higher levels. The only reason the familiar becomes less useful is because you're facing tougher monsters, but you're never exclusively facing tough monsters. Things like goblins are viable enemies all the way to tier 4, you just need to be fighting more of them for them to pose a threat to the party. I suppose it does become true that the familiar's help is less needed as your warlock (and the rest of the party) becomes stronger and can more easily take on such enemies without the familiar's help.

[Sherlockpwns]

It's not worth it to give up your one attack in a turn to have advantage on that same one attack on your next turn; your chances of hitting once are exactly the same (with the disadvantage that you will always be hitting your enemy later rather than sooner, and that's usually pretty bad), and your chances of hitting twice go from "low" to "zero". Of course, being invisible does have defensive advantages, but it's a rare combat that the sprite can't get full cover in between shooting, considering his size.



The advantage that an invocation (or a spell) has over a subclass feature is that you can swap it out at any level up; so get Investment of the Chain Master early, and drop it when enemies AC start to get too high.

You are never giving up your action for this. At most it’s your bonus action. The advantage is that it frees up your bonus action every other turn, but you are correct it’s not useful if you have no bonus actions to do.

[diplomancer]

You are never giving up your action for this. At most it’s your bonus action. The advantage is that it frees up your bonus action every other turn, but you are correct it’s not useful if you have no bonus actions to do.

I was talking about the sprite; it's better for the sprite to keep attacking than to attack-turn invisible-attack-turn invisible, etc

[MaxWilson]

I was talking about the sprite; it's better for the sprite to keep attacking than to attack-turn invisible-attack-turn invisible, etc

Can you clarify what scenario you're thinking of that gives the sprite the option to "keep attacking" twice per round? Is this a hypothetical about if the warlock isn't physically present?

[prototype00]

Can you clarify what scenario you're thinking of that gives the sprite the option to "keep attacking" twice per round? Is this a hypothetical about if the warlock isn't physically present?

I think he is referring to the following scenarios:

1. Warlock with Investment of the chain master gets Sprite to take the attack action every round as a bonus action.

Vs

2. Warlock with Investment of the Chain Master gets Sprite to attack as a bonus action, Sprite takes the next round to go invisible. Then attacks against next round.

[MaxWilson]

I think he is referring to the following scenarios:

1. Warlock with Investment of the chain master gets Sprite to take the attack action every round as a bonus action.

Vs

2. Warlock with Investment of the Chain Master gets Sprite to attack as a bonus action, Sprite takes the next round to go invisible. Then attacks against next round.

Oh, so this is about examining whether the bonus action attack also costs the Sprite its action, preventing it from turning invisible? You might be right.

[diplomancer]

Can you clarify what scenario you're thinking of that gives the sprite the option to "keep attacking" twice per round? Is this a hypothetical about if the warlock isn't physically present?

I believe there is an ambiguity in the rules about Investment of the Chain Master, whether the attack happens when you take the bonus action, "for free" (from the Sprite's perspective), or whether, after you take the bonus action, the sprite can use its own action to attack on its own turn. For the sake of this discussion, I'm assuming the second interpretation is the right one.

The post I was responding to also seems to assume this interpretation, specially this part:

At worst this means you only attack with poison every OTHER turn. Shoot, go invis next turn, shoot again the following turn. +6 with adv is plenty to carry you in t3.

I was pointing out that this is not an effective use of the Sprite's action (i.e, atacking once every other turn, with Advantage from being invisible) and that it's more effective to attack once every turn, without bothering on becoming invisible (Here of course I'm ignoring the defensive advantages of invisibility, which I believe are smaller for a tiny flying creature with a ranged attack that can easily find full cover at the end of most of its rounds; I'm just comparing the offensive capability of the two options, attack-attack-attack-attack-etc vs attack-turn invisible-attack-turn invisible-etc). I was not suggesting that the sprite would be attacking twice, either on the same turn or on the same round.

Of course, if the ability is interpreted that the Sprite attacks immediately when you use your bonus action, "for free", then, since it CAN'T attack on its own turn, it could indeed then turn invisible with its action and attack with advantage on your next bonus action. But then it would not be attacking only every other turn, which was suggested by the post I was responding to.

Edit: I just realized that there IS a situation where the attack-turn invisible-attack again might be the recommended course of action; when the Warlock has another decent use of his Bonus Action; for the Sprite to turn invisible does not cost the Warlock's bonus action, so, though it is, in abstract, less efficient than just attacking, there may be situations where it would work better (and some situations where it would be almost mandatory, like a Celestial Warlock using Healing Light as his Bonus Action to heal a fallen Ally).

[follacchioso]

I was talking about the sprite; it's better for the sprite to keep attacking than to attack-turn invisible-attack-turn invisible, etc

By RAW familiars cannot take the Attack action. A warlock with Chain Pact can forgo their Attack action to let the familiar attack instead. With the Investment invocation, the warlock can instead use a Bonus Action instead of that. Otherwise the familiar does not attack on their turn.

From the Find Familiar spell:

Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal.

From Pact of the Chain:

Pact of the Chain
You learn the find familiar spell, it doesn't count against your number of known spells, and you can cast it as a ritual. Your familiar can take on a more powerful form, and when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack with its reaction.

[prototype00]

I believe there is an ambiguity in the rules about Investment of the Chain Master, whether the attack happens when you take the bonus action, "for free" (from the Sprite's perspective), or whether, after you take the bonus action, the sprite can use its own action to attack on its own turn. For the sake of this discussion, I'm assuming the second interpretation is the right one.

I think it’s going to be a bit of a hard sell to DMs to say that after the sprite takes it’s “attack action” according to Investment that it still has yet another action to take on the same turn to go invisible.

I veer more towards the conservative interpretation which is good T1-T2 and heck T3-T4 you have a 25% chance to get 21 or higher and slam someone with a DC 23 poisoned so that isn’t nothing.

[diplomancer]

By RAW familiars cannot take the Attack action. A warlock with Chain Pact can forgo their Attack action to let the familiar attack instead. With the Investment invocation, the warlock can instead use a Bonus Action instead of that. Otherwise the familiar does not attack on their turn.

From the Find Familiar spell:

Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal.

From Pact of the Chain:

Pact of the Chain
You learn the find familiar spell, it doesn't count against your number of known spells, and you can cast it as a ritual. Your familiar can take on a more powerful form, and when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack with its reaction.

I know this; what still has not been determined is WHAT happens when you take the Bonus Action? Does the Familiar attack immediately or on its own turn, using its own action? (this is how an Artificer's pet works, IIRC) )If immediately, does it use its reaction, or is it for free?

IF the attack happens the moment you take your bonus action (whether for free or at the cost of the familiar's reaction), then yes, Familiar could use its own Action to turn invisible and attack again, with advantage, on the following turn when you take the Bonus Action again. In fact, if it's entirely for free and it goes before you on initiative, it could use all its actions in combat to ready an action to become invisible right after it attacks at your command, functionally being invisible for the entire combat.

I think it’s going to be a bit of a hard sell to DMs to say that after the sprite takes it’s “attack action” according to Investment that it still has yet another action to take on the same turn to go invisible.

I veer more towards the conservative interpretation which is good T1-T2 and heck T3-T4 you have a 25% chance to get 21 or higher and slam someone with a DC 23 poisoned so that isn’t nothing.

I agree, that's my interpretation as well, and the one I'm assuming in this thread. I just make a note that other people interpret it differently (and, in fact, on my first read of the ability that's how I interpreted it also, it was only upon later reflection that I, somewhat grudgingly, accepted that the intent is to have the familiar use its own action to attack after you use your bonus action).

The fact that the ability says "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.", and NOT "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to attack" is a strong indication that this is the intended meaning

[MaxWilson]

I believe there is an ambiguity in the rules about Investment of the Chain Master, whether the attack happens when you take the bonus action, "for free" (from the Sprite's perspective), or whether, after you take the bonus action, the sprite can use its own action to attack on its own turn. For the sake of this discussion, I'm assuming the second interpretation is the right one.

*snip* I was pointing out that this is not an effective use of the Sprite's action (i.e, atacking once every other turn, with Advantage from being invisible) and that it's more effective to attack once every turn, without bothering on becoming invisible

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying, I understand now what you're saying.

My experience with Sprite familiars is that between the +6 to hit and the Con save, inflicting Poisoned isn't reliable against nontrivial monsters. I think it winds up causing Poisoned around 1 round in 3, against mid-CR monsters. This isn't terrible for a bonus action but it's also not fantastic for an invocation that competes with other invocations like Tomb of Levistus and Voice of the Chain Master. Obviously the ability ti make your familiar attack as a bonus action gets a lot better if the familiar has a stronger attack, e.g. Sprite familiar + Investment of the Chain Master + Hideous Gnawing (Cthulhu 5e pg 60, 3d6 extra piercing damage if advantage or adjacent ally) + Frightful Familiar (ibid, your bonus action to trigger 1/short rest Fear against creatures of familiar's choice within 60' that are aware of it, until start of its next turn, Wis save to negate) + Sanity Threatening Familiar (ibid, creatures who see it attack take 4d6 psychic damage and are stunned until start of its next turn, Int save to take half damage and be unable to see the familiar until it's next turn instead of being stunned). If you go all in on enhancing your familiar + Eldritch Blast it could be a pretty powerful bonus action... but that's a lot of eggs in one basket.

From my experience with it, I liked it, but I don't think it makes my top 5 list of most desired invocations. There are too many other ways to impose disadvantage more reliably, e.g. summoning Constrictor Snakes.

But if your DM runs things such that the Sprite can get advantage every round then maybe that would make it worth it.

[diplomancer]

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying, I understand now what you're saying.

*snip*

From my experience with it, I liked it, but I don't think it makes my top 5 list of most desired invocations. There are too many other ways to impose disadvantage more reliably, e.g. summoning Constrictor Snakes.

But if your DM runs things such that the Sprite can get advantage every round then maybe that would make it worth it.

I'd say the main advantage is the lack of concentration; so, naturally, using your concentration summoning Constrictor Snakes should be more powerful.

[Tanarii]

I know this; what still has not been determined is WHAT happens when you take the Bonus Action? Does the Familiar attack immediately or on its own turn, using its own action? (this is how an Artificer's pet works, IIRC) )If immediately, does it use its reaction, or is it for free?

But if the sprite uses its action when the warlock uses a bonus action, the point being made is that in this particular case there is a point to alternating attacks with invisibility to gain advantage. The warlock can use their bonus action for something on the off-turns,

[prototype00]

I wonder whats a good bonus action use for a Warlock (aside from spells, that is). Telekinetic seems interesting (and is a half feat for mental stats) if you're playing a spiked growth Genie-Lock (and for repositioning squishy party members in melee).