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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    I am planning to run a campaign where the PC's are all shipwrecked on a unknown island and are isolated from the rest of the world. My hope is that they will explore, forage, hunt, and build as they look to settle and carve a niche for themselves in the island. I am a little worried that Goodberry might suck out alot of fun by negating the hunting/foraging aspect, and that the party may never engage in those activities.

    I do have several ideas to help mitigate overreliance though;

    I am going to have a Party Morale tracker and eating the same food over a long period of time will negatively affect Morale. However eating well prepared & varied meals will grant a bonus to Morale. Also gathering herbs or hunting for pelts and exotic materials is still valuable for crafting, and I will have homebrew items & potions available to craft.


    Looking to hear from similar DM's experiences and opinions if I should be worried about Goodberry or let it go. Feedback and advice is appreciated!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    The simplest solution would be to simply have the spell not exist for your campaign. Alternatively you can have the spell’s component used, be consumed upon casting.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    You can just be upfront about the fact that the sustenance element of goodberry is against the survival theme you're going with, and cut that part. Your call whether you also make the spell require actual berries (that shouldn't be too hard to come across in that case) or just have it create purely magical constructs that recover HP without having any food value. Really, if you're going to try to make a survival subgame here, you can create a general rule that magically generated food can have whatever magical effects (for Goodberry and Heroes' Feast), but won't nourish a person. If your players are down with the theme, they should be content with that.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    The material component for Goodberry is mistletoe. Although this component isn't consumed when you cast the spell, it's literally consumed when the players eat the goodberries (magically enhanced mistletoe). This means that instead of removing Goodberry, you can make mistletoe hunting an important part of their survival strategy!

    Here are some tips on how to track down mistletoe:

    • Basic description. Mistletoe is a parasitic plant that grows in trees. It's about the size of a bird's nest. It can be hard to spot if you aren't sure what you're looking for. A player with high Intelligence (Nature) should know what it looks like, and a player with high Wisdom (Perception) can spot it.
    • Wintertime tracking trick. Mistletoe is evergreen, but it refuses to grow in evergreen trees. This means that when a tree loses its leaves in the winter, any mistletoe in it will look like a bright green tuft. A player with high Intelligence (Nature) could use this fact to spot mistletoe with their passive Perception alone, even if their Wisdom (Perception) is low.
    • Summertime tracking trick. In extreme cases, mistletoe infestations can completely kill a tree. If the players find an area full of leafless trees in the middle of summer, a mistletoe outbreak was the cause! A player with high Intelligence (Nature) could use this fact to spot mistletoe with their passive Perception alone, even if their Wisdom (Perception) is low.
    Last edited by GalacticAxekick; 2021-04-08 at 05:32 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Owlbears come from people eating nothing but good berries. Every day you eat nothing except goodberries, make a con save. The DC is 5+the number of days you've eaten nothing but goodberries. When you fail 10 such saves, you transform into an owlbear permanently. Before the transformation is permanent there are warning signs like feather growth.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Don't you have to find an existing berry bush with fresh berries already grown to cast Goodberry on? That's how the 3.PF version works anyway. So they're still foraging, the spell is just making their foraging a lot more efficient.

    Edit: Taking a look at it, no, apparently. It just makes berries from nothing. That is...absolutely bizarre for Druid; part of their theme (subtly) in previous editions is they're pretty light on Conjuration [Creation] spells, but heavy on Transmutation spells that manipulate the EXISTING environment. Stuff like Entangle requiring there actually being greenery around to work, and Goodberry needing an existing berry bush. The mistletoe was just a focus a Druid needed to cast ALL of their spells.

    Anyway...change it to that.

    After that, I think that's fine. Look at it this way: survival (as in hunting for food/shelter/etc.) is not the only challenge the party is going to be facing. If the party Druid is burning one of their 2 spells per day on making sure everyone doesn't starve to death...well that's one less spell the Druid has making sure the party doesn't, well, DIE to death from some monster.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2021-04-08 at 07:06 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Oh, also, goodberries attract owlbears.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Set up weird magical effects on the island. If none of your wizards are Transmuters, make Transmutation spells require a higher level slot; if you're starting at 1st level, bump them up to needing a 3rd level slot. If they're still there at 5th level, then cool, they get some reduction of one aspect of their needs after several levels of needing them.

    I'd set up several such effects... Conjuration requires an extra level (crimping Create Food and Water), evocations require one less (minimum one), Illusions get a bonus level when cast (so, use a 2nd level slot, get treated as if it's 3rd). They MIGHT be able to figure out a way around these things... weird rituals they devise, or simple things like "Abjuration spells remove the level effects for 1 spell per level of slot used in the spell, but then expires)... something the players can figure out, and might be understandable with some time and study (i.e. it takes them a while to make the Arcana Check). I'd exempt cantrips.

    It helps encourage the survival theme, still lets them use their magics, but makes the thematically difficult spells harder, and shakes up their expectations in a weird situation.
    The Cranky Gamer
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Some possible solutions that aren't too obtrusive:

    1: Goodberries heal HP as usual but don't provide sustenance. This keeps it an efficient healing spell while also keeping it easy for you to maintain a survival-based game.

    2: When you cast goodberry you cannot cast it again nor get your spell slot back until all the goodberries are gone (either eaten or expired). This means the PCs can benefit from goodberries as usual but can't spam and stock up on them to completely obviate food requirements.

    3: The material component for goodberry is used when cast, so you can't just use a focus you have to find mistletoe. This means as DM you can control PC access to it.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    2: When you cast goodberry you cannot cast it again nor get your spell slot back until all the goodberries are gone (either eaten or expired). This means the PCs can benefit from goodberries as usual but can't spam and stock up on them to completely obviate food requirements.
    Goodberries already expire in 24 hours.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Two Tales of Tellene, available from DriveThruFiction
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    A few ways come to mind.

    1) Salt the water. This will force the PCs to either find a source of drinkable water, or burn another spell on creating/purifying it.

    At some point, the spellcasters will realize that burning their spell slots for nutrition is eating into their overall potential.

    2) This:

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    Alternatively you can have the spell’s component used, be consumed upon casting.
    If you're stranding them, I assume you're chosing which items get stranded with them. Without an item that lets them cast the goodberry spell, no goodberries. Finding a few sprigs of mistletoe can be a game-changer.

    Related: isn't part of the whole hunting/gathering situation also an option to limit the martial classes? The party will be significantly weaker if they don't have any balls of bat guano, longswords, or arrows.

    3) Add a large group of NPCs the party is responsible for. No way will they have enough spell slots to goodberry for 40 extra people. This is also well out of "I rolled a 25 on Survival" range. You can then put groves of mango trees, herds of wild pigs, stashes of jarred food, etc. where the PCs can find it.

    4) Add significant stat boosts to real food. Make the PCs want to hunt wild boar, not eat one small red berry.
    4a) Alternative. there's a nasty disease, toxin, or other ugliness that the local plants and animals have adjusted to. Eating them staves off the negative effect. Eating rations or good berries does not.
    Basically, pick carrot or stick.

    5) Or, you could shrug and say "this is one of the side effects of someone picking a nature-based divine spellcaster" and just focus on other things to find, like parts of a sail or carpentry tools to make a ship.

    Good luck! Your idea sounds interesting.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    3) Add a large group of NPCs the party is responsible for. No way will they have enough spell slots to goodberry for 40 extra people. This is also well out of "I rolled a 25 on Survival" range. You can then put groves of mango trees, herds of wild pigs, stashes of jarred food, etc. where the PCs can find it.
    This is the solution every "survival adventure" published module or Adventure Path I've played has taken, and it's always fun.

    A bit of general advice to thee OP as well. A lot of what people are suggesting sort of make a faulty assumption: taht the survival mode is going to last the whole game. It will not, and should not.

    Your PCs are going to make progress. They're going to level. Eventually one of a few things is going to happen:

    1.) They secure a reliable source of food, water, and shelter for themselves, so foraging is no longer an issue.

    2.) They make it back to civilization.

    3.) They die.

    4.) Your players drop the game/start griping about it constantly.

    Either way, your survival plot really only works up to like...level 6 or so. Not because of any major power shift at that level, actually, but just due to the fact that there's only so much staying power a survival plot HAS. Eventually it ends and the game moves on, or people get bored and stop playing.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    It's not just the PC's who are stranded. There are a few dozen sailors to feed as well. How many castings of Goodberry do you have? Yeah, some of the guys will start to starve if the PCs don't do something. And how are they going to rule their piece of the island without loyal followers?

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Just use Gritty Realism rule so the spell slot matters. Goodberry becomes a good option for the day you failed at foraging. (and a good source of healing the rest of the time).

    If you're NOT playing by Gritty Realism, then exhaustion from food will probably never happen anyway, and you have create Food and Water, Purify water, and a lot of other spells you'll need to ban/homebrew.

    GR is (IMO) the best way to make foraging relevant past level 3.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    1.) They secure a reliable source of food, water, and shelter for themselves, so foraging is no longer an issue.
    High-level magic really ends a lot of "normal" problems. One casting of create food and water is 45 pounds of food and 30 gallons of water, for example. Failing that, hunters bring back a ton of game when they've been magically informed where the animals are, and also, are made invisible and/or flying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    2.) They make it back to civilization.
    This, in my opinion, is the real goal. If the PCs hit the first option before the second option, the second option doesn't feel as much like a victory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    3.) They die.
    Barring a lucky crit or horrifyingly bad luck in character classes, this should not happen from hunger, thirst or disease. Simply put, this is the background on which the other threats should be painted. Again my opinion, but the PCs should be injured because of the obstacles found while trying to find food and shelter, not because they didn't have it. That, and dying of hunger/thirst/disease in D&D takes a few days even without medicine or magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    4.) Your players drop the game/start griping about it constantly.
    This was my last campaign, mostly. I introduced survival mechanics with bonuses for doing them well, the players never really got into it because other things kept getting their attention. Then COVID hit and I didn't want to run a downer campaign anymore.

    Either way, your survival plot really only works up to like...level 6 or so. Not because of any major power shift at that level, actually, but just due to the fact that there's only so much staying power a survival plot HAS. Eventually it ends and the game moves on, or people get bored and stop playing.[/QUOTE]

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Oh, I should add: butchering a livestock animal gives FAR AND ABOVE more food than a Survival skill check. Growing up, I knew my share of hunters and farmers. You'd get thirty pounds of meat from even a small pig or goat, probably more. A full-sized boar or deer? 75, 100, could be more. That's assuming skilled butchers, of course, which might include a PC with the right skill training and tools.

    Perhaps the issue isn't "where do we get the game?" but "how do we keep 50 pounds of raw pork from spoiling in the tropical air?" Otherwise, hunting animals for food could end up with a lot being wasted (or, in this context, requiring purify food and drink to be cast daily, which just moves the problem you're having to a lower spell level). Having the players salvage or build a smoker, jerky drying rack, or meat locker (ice cave?) could vastly improve their meat yield's lifespan and therefore effective amount.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    I would maybe go further and cut rangers and druids from the class options for players.

    If survival is a theme then you probably don't want any one PC being that good at it that a whole aspect of the game is dominated by them.

    On the other hand, if you go for adruid or ranger class and can't survive in the wilderness then it kind of undermines your class identity.

    If you have these classes in the game then you kinda can't win.

    Most players are pretty good with restrictions if they are up-front... less good with nerf later on or restrictions when they have already begun to plan a character.


    Just say you want to play a game with characters stranded in an unforgiving world and adapting and learning how to survive is an important part.

    Either players will buy into that as a concept or they won't. If they think it sounds fun then I imagine they will see why some changes are needed for it to remain fun. If they don't think it is a fun concept, then this is probably not the group to run it with anyway.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Just use the DMG gritty rests optional rule. You can even boost durations of spells lasting 1 hour or more by a factor of 8 (this keeps spells like hex that "should be" always up between short rests still work reasonably, and mage armor goes from 1 short rest to half the period between long rests; if you take 2 short rests between long rests (3 days of adventure, 7 days of rest) spells last about as long as they do in vanilla).

    Goodberry now lasts 8 days and produces 10 person-days of food for a 1st level slot. A 3rd level Druid and Ranger together has 8 slots they can use, for 80 person days every long rest.

    A long rest requires a full week, plus 1 day to do stuff like cast the spell; 8 days. So a 3rd level Druid and Ranger, doing nothing but goodberry spamming, can keep 10 people in food (but not water), and has 1 day in 8 to do other stuff (but no spell slots).

    At 2nd level they have 5 slots, so 5 people. At 1st level, the druid has 2 slots, so 2 people fed indefinitely.

    By 3rd level you have tiny hut, which at 8x duration lasts 64 hours, or 2.5 days. So 3-4 casts are required for a safe long rest. Still useful, as it provides a few days of shelter, but not a free long rest.

    You also get create food and water, which is 15 person days per 3rd level slot. Two slots over 8 days means you can keep 3.75 people fed indefinitely at level 5.

    Gritty rests help make time scale of adventures not be single days, but closer to fortnights. Requiring enough supplies and safety to rest for a full week to get your spell slots and HD back becomes a serious problem.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2021-04-12 at 11:13 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    smile Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    The material component for Goodberry is mistletoe. Although this component isn't consumed when you cast the spell, it's literally consumed when the players eat the goodberries (magically enhanced mistletoe). This means that instead of removing Goodberry, you can make mistletoe hunting an important part of their survival strategy!

    Here are some tips on how to track down mistletoe:

    • Basic description. Mistletoe is a parasitic plant that grows in trees. It's about the size of a bird's nest. It can be hard to spot if you aren't sure what you're looking for. A player with high Intelligence (Nature) should know what it looks like, and a player with high Wisdom (Perception) can spot it.
    • Wintertime tracking trick. Mistletoe is evergreen, but it refuses to grow in evergreen trees. This means that when a tree loses its leaves in the winter, any mistletoe in it will look like a bright green tuft. A player with high Intelligence (Nature) could use this fact to spot mistletoe with their passive Perception alone, even if their Wisdom (Perception) is low.
    • Summertime tracking trick. In extreme cases, mistletoe infestations can completely kill a tree. If the players find an area full of leafless trees in the middle of summer, a mistletoe outbreak was the cause! A player with high Intelligence (Nature) could use this fact to spot mistletoe with their passive Perception alone, even if their Wisdom (Perception) is low.
    This is great, a simple nerf to the spell that still keeps its usefulness. The suggested information for hunting down mistletoe is fantastic thank you!

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    By 3rd level you have tiny hut, which at 8x duration lasts 64 hours, or 2.5 days. So 3-4 casts are required for a safe long rest. Still useful, as it provides a few days of shelter, but not a free long rest.
    That is still a free long rest ?

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Osuniev View Post
    That is still a free long rest ?
    You cant cast spells during a rest. If you have to cast Tiny Hut repeatedly to make it last the length of a rest, you can't rest in the hut.

    Your allies could, though! Which would be a very kind self-sacrificial thing for you to do for them
    Last edited by GalacticAxekick; 2021-04-14 at 04:04 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    There was youtube video on something like this, solution they came up with was making the goodberry spell consume its component parts with the first use.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    You cant cast spells during a rest. If you have to cast Tiny Hut repeatedly to make it last the length of a rest, you can't rest in the hut.

    Your allies could, though! Which would be a very kind self-sacrificial thing for you to do for them
    A long rest RAW is only interrupted by ONE HOUR of strenuous activity such as spellcasting. If playing Gritty Realism, it seems even more logical you can do things during these 7 days. I would expect Ritual Casting tiny hut every evening to be among those things, just like setting up the campfire, cooking, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    I would maybe go further and cut rangers and druids from the class options for players.

    If survival is a theme then you probably don't want any one PC being that good at it that a whole aspect of the game is dominated by them.
    I think it would be a shame to ban ranger from the type of play where they shine. (Ban the Outlander background though).

    I think the proper way to play a Ranger in a Survival campaign is : they will be REALLY good at what they do, but they cannot do everything at once. So for example they can spend a day hunting/foraging, and they'll get loads of food (IIRC, 1d6+WIS modifier rations DOUBLED, or is that only in their favourite terrain ?), but that means someone else has to take care of the water. Or the campfire. Or the lookout for enemies. Etc...
    Last edited by Osuniev; 2021-04-15 at 06:45 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Osuniev View Post
    A long rest RAW is only interrupted by ONE HOUR of strenuous activity such as spellcasting.
    "If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it."

    The way you read this, "Strenuous activity is one hour of:
    • walking
    • fighting
    • casting spells
    • or similar adventuring activity"


    When in fact, "Strenuous activity is:
    • one hour of walking
    • fighting
    • casting spells
    • or similar adventuring activity"


    ANY amount of fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity is strenuous enough to interrupt a rest.

    If playing Gritty Realism, it seems even more logical you can do things during these 7 days. I would expect Ritual Casting tiny hut every evening to be among those things, just like setting up the campfire, cooking, etc...
    If we're playing Gritty Realism, and it takes one week of downtime to recover from casting a spell, I would expect the ritual version of that spell to still be pretty strenuous. Certainly more strenuous than setting a campfire or cooking.

    I think a good analogy for ritual casting Tiny Hut would be moving a barn. It only takes a few minutes, and everyone involved will be fine the next morning, but nobody involved could call that a "rest day".
    Last edited by GalacticAxekick; 2021-04-15 at 02:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Yep, so 2 PCs and 14 days both with tiny hut can take turns covering each other, and the second one is down 3 3rd level spells.

    ... of course, my tiny hut is a bubble of force, but not indestructible. It has HP.

  26. - Top - End - #26
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    "If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it."

    The way you read this, "Strenuous activity is one hour of:
    • walking
    • fighting
    • casting spells
    • or similar adventuring activity"


    When in fact, "Strenuous activity is:
    • one hour of walking
    • fighting
    • casting spells
    • or similar adventuring activity"
    I understand how you read it, but I do believe that reading makes less sense. And FWIW, the game designers rule it just like I do :
    https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/20...hortlong-rest/

    Of course, Sage advice isn't RAW. For what it's worth, the French translation of that rule makes it explicit that whatever the strenuous activity, ONE HOUR of it is needed to interrupt a Long Rest.
    Last edited by Osuniev; 2021-04-26 at 07:57 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Default Re: Concerned about Goodberry in a Survival campaign

    I mean, you can have a long rest while fighting your way through a dungeon by that reading. So long as the periods of walking/fighting/spellcasting are all less than 1 hour.

    "I start my long rest as I enter the dungeon".

    Seems strange.

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