Where does the "ToB is too strong" myth come from?

[Gnaeus]

Picking the best and moat broken sorcerer spells there are, and maybe dropping polymorph, doesn't suddenly drop the sorcerer 2 tiers until he gets wish at 18 because he didn't take charm person, disguise self, or locate object.

Polymorph is a straight up combat spell. Yes, it has some out of combat uses that can generally be done better with lower level spells. But when people say Polymorph is broken strong they don’t mean as a disguise or a source of swim speed. They mean “I’m going use one combat action to turn the fighter into a huge weapon using form with additional natural attacks and 30 strength and fire subtype and flight so he can go own this combat”. If you changed the duration to “until end of combat” it would still be a top 4th level spell.

[noob]

Polymorph is a straight up combat spell. Yes, it has some out of combat uses that can generally be done better with lower level spells. But when people say Polymorph is broken strong they don’t mean as a disguise or a source of swim speed. They mean “I’m going use one combat action to turn the fighter into a huge weapon using form with additional natural attacks and 30 strength and fire subtype and flight so he can go own this combat”. If you changed the duration to “until end of combat” it would still be a top 4th level spell.

You have used polymorph vastly differently from how my team used to.
It was mostly "polymorph in something very small and inconspicuous" "polymorph creatures with contingent spells in small stuff to have easily transportable masses of contingent spell triggering at once" "polymorph in something big and strong to throw stuff in teleportation circles(very efficient in terms of logistics for thieving)" and a dozen of other shenanigans like that.

[H_H_F_F]

Polymorph is a straight up combat spell. Yes, it has some out of combat uses that can generally be done better with lower level spells. But when people say Polymorph is broken strong they don’t mean as a disguise or a source of swim speed. They mean “I’m going use one combat action to turn the fighter into a huge weapon using form with additional natural attacks and 30 strength and fire subtype and flight so he can go own this combat”. If you changed the duration to “until end of combat” it would still be a top 4th level spell.

I agree Polymorph is a huge combat spell, but it's still useful ooc. My point was that you could easily create a sorcerer taking 90% of the cheesiest spells and great spells otherwise, to be a combat machine capable of winning any and all encounters, and not be very useful ooc. That does not, in my view, make you equivalent to a tier 4 martial like an ubercharger, that could destroy almost any single enemy he can charge. Being able to win combat, full stop, is NOT tier 4 in my opinion, and that was the view I was arguing against.

[Gnaeus]

You have used polymorph vastly differently from how my team used to.
It was mostly "polymorph in something very small and inconspicuous" "polymorph creatures with contingent spells in small stuff to have easily transportable masses of contingent spell triggering at once" "polymorph in something big and strong to throw stuff in teleportation circles(very efficient in terms of logistics for thieving)" and a dozen of other shenanigans like that.

So....
something easily done with lower level spells....
Something polymorph with it’s one minute/level is bad at, which is also borderline cheating, and which is also essentially a combat use because the main time you need masses of spells triggering at once is combat, so thank you for proving my point to the extent this is viable...
So it makes you good at throwing stuff. That’s nice. I’ve never felt the need to throw things quickly. I’m sure that’s actually why people polymorph. To throw gear faster.

[noob]

Something polymorph with it’s one minute/level is bad at, which is also borderline cheating, and which is also essentially a combat use because the main time you need masses of spells triggering at once is combat, so thank you for proving my point to the extent this is viable....

It was used for infiltrating a building by destroying a bunch of enchantments thus allowing to teleport in then flee away right after stealing a bunch of things.
And can you tell me which low level spell allows you to sneak in despite guards with see invisibility or high detection checks?
Anything that is invisible is extra suspicious.

[Drelua]

It was used for infiltrating a building by destroying a bunch of enchantments thus allowing to teleport in then flee away right after stealing a bunch of things.
And can you tell me which low level spell allows you to sneak in despite guards with see invisibility or high detection checks?
Anything that is invisible is extra suspicious.

Just in core, dimension door's the same level, alter self or disguise self might work, major image is 3rd. Polymorph only works if they have see invisibility up but not detect magic, since it's not gonna work out great if a squirrel jumps in through the window and it has a magic aura. It's certainly a viable use of the spell, there's probably easier ways to do it but if you don't have any of those handy it works. Just probably not what most players would think of first when you could just turn the Barbarian into a raging 7-headed hydra at minimum caster level.

[Smegskull]

It lets you have infinite turns in a round.
Also the abilities were not given counters like with magic and psionics (counter spell, anti-magic field, etc)
Also there aren't proper use limits like spell slots per day or power points.

[Elves]

It lets you have infinite turns in a round.

To be clear, the infinite turn loops are niche charop builds.

Also the abilities were not given counters like with magic and psionics (counter spell, anti-magic field, etc)

The supernatural maneuvers are prey to antimagic field just like any su ability. The others are primarily instantaneous.

Also there aren't proper use limits like spell slots per day or power points.

The effects can't be used on subsequent turns and have action costs to refresh, so in some ways they're more use-limited. And there are no maneuvers that are unbalanced to use repeatedly the way many spells would be. Add to that it lacks many of the problems of per-day resources, like the 15-minute adventuring day.

[Smegskull]

To be clear, the infinite turn loops are niche charop builds.
.....
And there are no maneuvers that are unbalanced to use repeatedly the way many spells would be.

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

The effects can't be used on subsequent turns and have action costs to refresh, so in some ways they're more use-limited.

In some ways yes, it will depend on the DM play stile and campaign... Just like allowing or banning the book does.

Add to that it lacks many of the problems of per-day resources, like the 15-minute adventuring day.

That is a problem with a character blowing his wad. Allowing a 15 min adventuring day is also a DM's choice (like allowing the book)

It's almost like balancing all this is the DM's whole job 🤨

I like to think of ToB as 4e alpha.

[Elves]

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

The white raven tactics loops mean that you use obscure gimmicks to use that maneuver over and over again within single turn.

That's different from being able to use an effect an unlimited number of times per day, but within the normal action and recovery framework. (Which in practice usually amounts to no more than twice per encounter.)

Unlimited also means a lot less than you'd think when you have maneuvers that are primarily useful in combat. Remember, a typical day with 4 encounters will only have 10-20 combat rounds. Spellcasters are casting a spell every round by mid levels, and their spells are both stronger and wider in scope than maneuvers.

I like to think of ToB as 4e alpha.

The funny part, which I've said it before, is that the maneuver recovery system is probably better designed than the AEDU framework 4e chose.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If a whole book should be banned for a few broken tricks (instead of just banning the tricks), we should ban the PHB first, all Faerun books second. Also, use limitations aren't such a big deal; otherwise Warlocks and reserve feats would be a big deal, and they're not. The real question is, on average, what are you doing with your action in combat? "Something decent every turn" isn't necessarily better than "something way too good in round 1 and then sipping tea letting the mooks mop up."

[noob]

alter self or disguise self might work, major image is 3rd. Polymorph only works if they have see invisibility up but not detect magic, since it's not gonna work out great if a squirrel jumps in through the window and it has a magic aura. It's certainly a viable use of the spell, there's probably easier ways to do it but if you don't have any of those handy it works. Just probably not what most players would think of first when you could just turn the Barbarian into a raging 7-headed hydra at minimum caster level.

Alter self and disguise self are heavily restrained in what it can make you look like and can not fill the purpose I indicated unless you have the right type or are initially very small (an humanoid getting close is more suspicious than a small bird).
Detect magic is extremely limited in range which means that they need you to get close(60 feet something like that) to a guard to find you that way also it takes concentration and works in a cone so they will be restrained to moving one move action per turn and detect only in one direction.
If they have that spell that allows to see magical auras without concentration they could detect you easily but it is something like level 5 I believe.

[Ignimortis]

If a whole book should be banned for a few broken tricks (instead of just banning the tricks), we should ban the PHB first, all Faerun books second. Also, use limitations aren't such a big deal; otherwise Warlocks and reserve feats would be a big deal, and they're not. The real question is, on average, what are you doing with your action in combat? "Something decent every turn" isn't necessarily better than "something way too good in round 1 and then sipping tea letting the mooks mop up."

Basically, this. The PHB sets a terrible precedent for anything called "balance", and banning 50% of it is more conductive to building a more balanced and fun game than banning any other sourcebook (even the Faerun ones).

It lets you have infinite turns in a round.

So, one broken maneuver that is still up to DM's interpretation (does WRT allow you to target yourself?) and needs you to circumvent the recharge mechanic somehow. You'd have to be a Warblade with multiple Swift actions per turn, or somehow be able to do anything but move without your Standard+Swift actions. Like Elves said, it's a very niche charop build that is very easily countered by any GM permanently by saying "you can't WRT yourself".

Also the abilities were not given counters like with magic and psionics (counter spell, anti-magic field, etc)
Also there aren't proper use limits like spell slots per day or power points.

Does a weapon swing need a counterspell to counter it? Does a Fighter need a "swings per day" mechanic? Turning every single power source into X/day akin to spellcasting is boring and unfun. BTW, Binders basically have their stuff at-will with a "cooldown" of a few rounds, which results in basically the same rate of use as maneuvers.

[noob]

So, one broken maneuver that is still up to DM's interpretation (does WRT allow you to target yourself?) and needs you to circumvent the recharge mechanic somehow. You'd have to be a Warblade with multiple Swift actions per turn, or somehow be able to do anything but move without your Standard+Swift actions. Like Elves said, it's a very niche charop build that is very easily countered by any GM permanently by saying "you can't WRT yourself".

No it is not easily cancellable with this change: just get two martial initiators with WRT and a way to recover it in a single round and have them WRT each other.
But you can fix it by instead saying any given creature can benefit from the effect of WRT only once per turn.
Or write that WRT does not allows to decrease the initiative of the target so that it is closer to what was probably intended: a way to help an ally with a low initiative to play before the opponents.

[Drelua]

Alter self and disguise self are heavily restrained in what it can make you look like and can not fill the purpose I indicated unless you have the right type or are initially very small (an humanoid getting close is more suspicious than a small bird).
Detect magic is extremely limited in range which means that they need you to get close(60 feet something like that) to a guard to find you that way also it takes concentration and works in a cone so they will be restrained to moving one move action per turn and detect only in one direction.
If they have that spell that allows to see magical auras without concentration they could detect you easily but it is something like level 5 I believe.

You didn't explain the exact circumstances, alter self would be less reliable but if you scope the place out and use disguise self to look like someone important who just left, that's one way to infiltrate a building. I'm not saying polymorph doesn't work, but usually infiltration can be done with lower level spells, if you happen to have them available. Detect magic is a cantrip with a duration of concentration, and it can be used as a trap trigger I think, so it's not hard to have it up.

Sometimes the guards have see invisibilty but not detect magic or true seeing, so polymorph works. It works, it's just not the first thing I'd want it for. If I had it prepared and a situation like that comes up, great, but I'd have prepared expecting to turn one of my friends into a hydra.

No it is not easily cancellable with this change: just get two martial initiators with WRT and a way to recover it in a single round and have them WRT each other.
But you can fix it by instead saying any given creature can benefit from the effect of WRT only once per turn.
Or write that WRT does not allows to decrease the initiative of the target so that it is closer to what was probably intended: a way to help an ally with a low initiative to play before the opponents.

Okay, so limit it to once per round. I don't see a way around that. For Crusaders it's dependent on having that maneuver granted that turn, I think there's ways to make sure that happens but I'm not too familiar with the class so I'm not sure, but unless you know what you're doing it's not guaranteed. For Warblades they'd be stuck with a standard action attack, and I don't think I've gamed with anyone that would sit there and say "I attack then use white raven tactics on myself" until everything was dead. I definitely haven't played with any GMs that would allow it. So yeah, there's an ability that's fairly easy to abuse in theory, that next to no GMs would allow. That's true of many books, I don't see how it's a big deal.

[Elves]

Yeah I said this earlier and it seems like a consensus, 1/round is a good nerf.

Another nerf could be target can't have HD higher than yourself or yourself +2, but then the text gets too long.

[Darg]

WRT being used to have infinite cycle of turns is excessively shaky.

1. The meaning of ally is another character not yourself. An example of this in action can be found under bardic music in the PHB: inspire courage is "allies", inspire competence is "ally", and inspire greatness is you or an "ally". It follows the glossary definition exactly. You can't use competence on yourself but you can use the other 2 to affect yourself.
2. Crusader being able to reset the granted maneuvers every turn requires one to turn off their brain. Nothing in the book says that the classes share known maneuvers between classes which is what is required for this to work. It's like saying an ultimate magus can cast any wizard spell he knows as a sorcerer spell. Just because ToB doesn't have a multi-class section like the PHB/XPH doesn't mean it wouldn't follow that example (otherwise dipping a level grants you the effect of upwards of 7-8 feats)

When you break down all the "broken" things in ToB, one can clearly see they are not broken. Rather the one reading them simply haven't pieced the effects together properly because of biased assumption. Even iron heart surge is completely blown out of proportion. Conditions are specific. Effect can be a little more broad, but is consistently used when describing the effect of spells or abilities. "Affecting you" means that you are the target, not just within the area of an effect. Finally, if it can be measured in rounds then turning off the sun only brings the end only 9 rounds sooner. It says measured in rounds not billions of years. Seriously, this last one really limits what spell, effect, or condition it could remove as the books tell you what they are.

[CIDE]

In my own experience with various tables and DM's the people that usually thought ToB was OP were the same people that also thought Monk was a great class (or even an OP class) because it had no dead levels. I'm not sure that comparison really requres any additional information.

[noob]

2. Crusader being able to reset the granted maneuvers every turn requires one to turn off their brain. Nothing in the book says that the classes share known maneuvers between classes which is what is required for this to work. It's like saying an ultimate magus can cast any wizard spell he knows as a sorcerer spell. Just because ToB doesn't have a multi-class section like the PHB/XPH doesn't mean it wouldn't follow that example (otherwise dipping a level grants you the effect of upwards of 7-8 feats)

I believe the way to make the crusader recover all its granted maneuver each turn was based on having two different initiating classes then gaining levels in a TOB prc and using a shaky reading which is that the prcs does not specifies it must increases the number of maneuvers known and the number of maneuver granted of the same class so you increase the number of maneuvers known for another class and increase the number of maneuver granted of the crusader until the crusader have more crusader maneuvers granted than crusader maneuvers known.
So the trick I knew required for classes to not share maneuvers known else the crusader could not get more maneuvers granted than maneuvers known.

[Drelua]

I believe the way to make the crusader recover all its granted maneuver each turn was based on having two different initiating classes then gaining levels in a TOB prc and using a shaky reading which is that the prcs does not specifies it must increases the number of maneuvers known and the number of maneuver granted of the same class so you increase the number of maneuvers known for another class and increase the number of maneuver granted of the crusader until the crusader have more crusader maneuvers granted than crusader maneuvers known.
So the trick I knew required for classes to not share maneuvers known else the crusader could not get more maneuvers granted than maneuvers known.

That doesn't seem like it could work, unless I'm missing something. Crusaders start with 5 maneuvers known, and get 4 granted per turn when they hit level 20. You could take Extra Granted Maneuver, but that can only be taken once, so you'd need an effective Crusader level of 20 with only 2 9 actual crusader levels. (Edit: looked at maneuvers known when I should have looked at readied. So it's doable, at level 20)

Not saying it can't work, someone smarter than me probably figured out a way around that, but it clearly takes a fair bit of effort to do reliably. Just realized it doesn't work for Warblades either, I forgot their recovery action is a standard and a swift.

[Elves]

The way the trick works is you start by taking other martial adept levels and/or Martial Study feats up to the point that you can't learn 5 crusader maneuvers because there aren't enough left to learn. Thus you end up with fewer known than granted. You can also take TOB PRC levels and bus the maneuvers readied to crusader but the maneuvers known to warblade or swordsage. You get an extra granted maneuver for each extra readied maneuver from a TOB prc so you end up with more granted than if you single classed crusader.

It doesn't require that you share known maneuvers between classes; it relies on the fact that you don't.

Darg, even under your reading, idiot crusader still works with 2 participants as people have pointed out. And the body outside body loop works fine, since it's your clones who are WRTing you. IIRC there was a psionics based loop as well.

[Morphic tide]

That doesn't seem like it could work, unless I'm missing something. Crusaders start with 5 maneuvers known, and get 4 granted per turn when they hit level 20. You could take Extra Granted Maneuver, but that can only be taken once, so you'd need an effective Crusader level of 20 with only 2 9 actual crusader levels. (Edit: looked at maneuvers known when I should have looked at readied. So it's doable, at level 20)

Not saying it can't work, someone smarter than me probably figured out a way around that, but it clearly takes a fair bit of effort to do reliably. Just realized it doesn't work for Warblades either, I forgot their recovery action is a standard and a swift.

Actually, ToB classes don't use +1 Initiator Level, PRCs have their own separate progression tables. It hinges on the fact that the Maneuvers Readied function of them automatically increases Maneuvers Granted by the same amount in addition to them being splittable, making it so that one level of Crusader needs to get three additional Maneuvers Readied or Granted to "break" into an Idiot Crusader. Which means +2 Readied from PRCs while Maneuvers Known is siloed into Warblade or Swordsage, alongside Extra Granted Maneuver, which is generally done as a three-level package of Crusader 1/Master of Nine 2 at the end of a build so you get 9th-level Maneuvers in it.

[Darg]

Looking through all the PRCs and none of them tell you to pick a class to apply the maneuvers benefits to. This means it applies to each of your classes. This also strongly suggests that known maneuvers are shared between multiclasses.

I also found a multiclass section that says to keep track of readied and expended maneuvers separately for each class. So you either share the pool of known maneuvers between classes (most likely now that I'm reading it) or you keep the pools separate (nothing actually says this is the case). When you ready maneuvers, nothing is preventing you from readying the same maneuvers already readied by a different class.

Either way, it is impossible for idiot crusader to work because you aren't starving the crusader of known maneuvers.

[Elves]

Looking through all the PRCs and none of them tell you to pick a class to apply the maneuvers benefits to. This means it applies to each of your classes. This also strongly suggests that known maneuvers are shared between multiclasses.

It's at the start of the chapter. Copypaste:

If you have levels in two or more martial adept standard classes (for example, you are a multiclass swordsage/war-blade), you must decide to which of your existing martial adept classes the new maneuvers known or maneuvers readied apply.

Maneuvers Known: When you gain additional maneu-vers known, these simply add to the maneuvers known of one martial adept standard class you already possess.

Maneuvers Readied: When indicated, you gain the ability to ready one or more additional martial maneuvers. If you have more than one martial maneuver progression, you must choose which progression the additional readied maneuver slot applies to.

...

If you choose to add the maneuver readied to a martial maneuver progression derived from crusader class levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver you can ready.

...

Recovery: You retain the same recovery method or meth-ods you already use. If you have levels in more than one martial adept class, you choose which recovery method you will use based on which adept class the new maneuver you are learning applies to.

[Psyren]

“I hate to just say ‘use Tome of Battle,’ but....”
“IRON HEART SUUUUUURGE I TURN OFF THE SUN”
“Iron Heart Surge I’m immune to this thread!”
“White Raven Tactics I replay this whole thread again!”
“Have you accepted Spheres of Power as your personal Lord and Savior?”

I sprayed my drink everywhere so thanks for that

ToB is too strong at low levels. Or if not too strong, then at least extremely strong, to the point where there is a legit argument for warblade and crusader being two of the top three base classes in the whole game.

Most campaigns start at level 1 and don't make it past mid-levels. That's an easy recipe for ToB domination. Who cares if it evens out later on? It's OP now. If that level range comprises the bulk of your experience with the book, I don't see why you'd come to any other conclusion.


A core barbarian doesn't even get a second attack until level 6, by which point the warblade and crusader have been spent the past five levels making her look like a clown because their baseline at-will power level is as good as or better than her 1/day rage power level.

I still wouldn't call it "too strong" but the sticker shock for this level range is a valid observation. A GM who is similarly not using maneuvers and watches the crusader rip through his lizardfolk/gnolls/etc might reasonably arrive at such a conclusion too. And of course the fluff/thematic concerns can be a turnoff as well, just as they can be for psionics.

With all that said, I always recommend to GMs that they give it a try, and similarly that Path of War is worth a look too.

[loky1109]

You don't often see DMs claiming the Warlock is broken just because they can do stuff at will, so that's not the reason.

Broken != too strong actually. Even weak option can totally broke the game if DM isn't ready. Example. Module can be build about exhaustion PC's recourses. Spell slots, turn attempts, smites, rage, etc. Of course Warlock and ToB classes seems broken in this game.
Many games imply some exhaustion PC's recourses not necessarily as obviously, but this is hidden idea somewhere in head.

[Calthropstu]

Broken != too strong actually. Even weak option can totally broke the game if DM isn't ready. Example. Module can be build about exhaustion PC's recourses. Spell slots, turn attempts, smites, rage, etc. Of course Warlock and ToB classes seems broken in this game.
Many games imply some exhaustion PC's recourses not necessarily as obviously, but this is hidden idea somewhere in head.

You should see what happens when too strong meets too weak.

[Drelua]

Actually, ToB classes don't use +1 Initiator Level, PRCs have their own separate progression tables. It hinges on the fact that the Maneuvers Readied function of them automatically increases Maneuvers Granted by the same amount in addition to them being splittable, making it so that one level of Crusader needs to get three additional Maneuvers Readied or Granted to "break" into an Idiot Crusader. Which means +2 Readied from PRCs while Maneuvers Known is siloed into Warblade or Swordsage, alongside Extra Granted Maneuver, which is generally done as a three-level package of Crusader 1/Master of Nine 2 at the end of a build so you get 9th-level Maneuvers in it.

Not gonna lie, still don't entirely get it but that's okay. I think I know enough to see that this isn't something you could pull of with nearly any GM.

I think this is one answer to the original question. People googled ToB, heard about this, and decided to shut it down without actually looking at how many questionable steps are involved. CharOp forums can make things look bad if you don't understand how creative people can get when they're looking for things they can break.

[Elves]

It's actually really simple.

- Crusaders automatically refresh maneuvers at the end of their turn if they have no maneuvers left that are withheld.
- So if they had granted maneuvers equal to their readied maneuvers, they'd have all their maneuvers refreshed every turn.
- White Raven Tactics grants an extra turn, so that would mean you could use it again on the free turn it grants you...and again and again, ad infinitum.

After taking Extra Granted Maneuver, however, your granted maneuvers are always 2 lower than your readied maneuvers.

But wait...what if you didn't actually know enough maneuvers to fill your full complement of readied maneuvers?

When you take levels in an initiator PRC, you can increase your readied and granted maneuvers without increasing your known maneuvers. So if you do that twice with master of nine 2, your crusader readied/granted maneuvers are technically 7/5, but you only have 5 maneuvers known, so after granting all 5 of those there are no more withheld, prompting the refresh button.


Even without White Raven Tactics, crusader getting all their mvs refreshed each turn seems unintended; TOB editors may have had a blind assumption that people would always add PRC mvs known and readied to the same class, but they didn't put that in the text.

[Lans]

There are first level manuevers that provide extra attacks, and a stance that adds an average of rage+.5 to damage. This is overshadows anything but a whirling barbarian till level 6 where it has the ability to move over 10 feet and do something slightly relevant