The Ranger (Class Redesign)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Update: I did a "Ranger Rehaul" that replaces the Re-Niche Ranger.

https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/RBQo63eVoWN2


Some notes.

Re-Hauled the Ranger.

Has a Monster Manual, filling it up is something a Ranger attempts to do. This is a replacement for Favored Enemy, but is still sorta favored enemy. Need to add language that denotes your advantage to checks applies to specific types and not the broad creature types... So, like if you have a Red Dragon in your Monster Manual, you don't get the advantage on int checks when dealing with Gold Dragons.

Natural Explorer (and Favored Terrain) has been combined with Hide in Plain Sight. HiPS starts small and grows.

Land's Stride is a 2nd level feature that grows as you gain levels.

Expanded some ideas from the Ranger to give the core class some flow. Now, instead of just getting Feral Senses, you start with Explorer's Sense. I put a chain of features with Iron Mind, Steel Will, and Adamantine Determination as the Ranger should be able to resist some of the nastier effects when you get higher level.

Damage Progression will be in the Subclass. Hopefully :P. I want subclasses to get weird (Warden).

Spoiler: Old Stuff

Show

First, just want to say that I worked on this under very little sleep, now that I've actually gotten sleep, I'll take another go over it to flesh some things out lol.

Gave the ranger tool Proficiency so they can make maps. Seriously, why is this not already a thing?

Etymologist, seperate the language learning from the favored enemy feature for a bit of fluff and because the Ranger can change Favored Enemies... Changing languages so much could get weird.

Favored Enemy is about knowledge, so, I expanded it to give you some useful information that you don't have to wonder if the DM will tell you or not. What does a intelligent check of 10 represent when learning about a creature? Each DM will have a different answer. This gives you a direct way of knowing certain things. No, it doesn't give you bonus damage, but you can direct allies into using certain abilities rather than others. This is good in combat but where it excels is when you're hidden and can survey a group of enemies and pick out the threat. Great also for DMs who tweak their enemies as assuming everything is stock can lead to bad times but also is a bit metagamey. Made it a bit more flexible so you aren't stuck with a completely useless feature because you took a wrong turn at Albuquerque (which, would only be possible if magic is involved). Add Charisma check advantage, mostly because it's thematic with the existing Favored Enemy fluff. Needs some retooling/rewording tho.

Natural Explorer/Favored Terrain stays about the same, I mean, it's a good ribbon feature. Made it more flexible though, cause like, Rangers should be good at learning and exploring and not just about staying in one place. Oh, I want to put some anti-exhaustion stuff in this feature at level 6 and 13, which won't come up often, but will be nice add ons.


The base Ranger has a lot of Rogue + Fighter in it. I reimagined Cunning Action to be Explorer's Footwork. Dash, Hide, and Escaping a Grapple.

Ranger now gets the same number of ASI as the Rogue.

Land's Stride got a minor, but much needed, buff.

HiPS... Part of me wanted to just remove this feature but the other part of me thinks it's pretty dang thematic and cool. Like, it should just be part of the base stealth rules, but, it's not so might as well keep it. Gave it a pretty good buff, you only need to reapply it when you get damaged. You can't get the bonus to stealth unless you aren't moving and take no actions like before, but it makes more thematic sense that you can move and do stuff, then run away and hide (like real camo).

Steel Will is now a base Ranger feature and I might change it around a bit tho. Maybe just immunity to frighten or something.

Vanish got a huge buff. It needs to be reworded a bit but, as long as you meet the requirements of hiding or being hidden, creatures have to physically be able to see you in order to find you. Yeah, this is niche tho, plenty of games won't get to 20, won't be stealthed focused, and other things but this gives the Ranger a niche capstone that, with a little work on the player's side, can go a long way.

Hunter Subclass...

Will put some fluff in to say something like "everyone is your favored enemy"

I'm thinking of just giving the Hunter access to all three Hunter's Prey options (gonna rename to Hunting Styles) since they don't overlap as you need specific weapons to use each style.


For 7th level, might throw in a mental saving throw defense option. Maybe "Iron Will" and have it be advantage on specific saves and then have Steel Will be a companion feature on the base class side.

For Slayer basically replicated the Warlock's Life Drinker invocation, HipS is basically a worse "One with shadows". Will probably remove the Favored Enemy requirement for For Slayer.

Superior Hunter's Defense was left alone because holy abyss is that a great feature, a little late, but still great.

+++++

Warden will be a 1/3 caster with druid/ranger spells.

Witcher will be based mostly around cantrips.

I have no real plans for beast master.

Maybe a Chef subclass that has a feature called "Flavored Enemy".

++++++

I think the core ranger needs to have three thing.

+ Knowledge about how to kill things, the ranger should be able to tell their allies what the best course of action should be. Sneak in, with or without the rogue, survey the enemies and come up with a plan of attack. The Ranger doesn't have all the tools, but, should be able to get the right tools.
+ Knowledge about environment.
+ Be a mix of Fighter/Rogue with a dash of other things sprinkled in. The Ranger is a hybrid class after all.

[Kane0]

Before I go too deep into what you have there i'll try to narrow down some of my expectations so my feedback might actually be useful.

Firstly; is any of this supposed to interact with Tasha's Ranger alternatives or is all of that thrown out?

Etymologist, seperate the language learning from the favored enemy feature for a bit of fluff and because the Ranger can change Favored Enemies... Changing languages so much could get weird.

Good move. Is FE supposed to function as a Ribbon or a central feature in this Ranger? Same question goes for Natural Explorer/Terrain.

Favored Enemy is about knowledge, so, I expanded it to give you some useful information that you don't have to wonder if the DM will tell you or not. What does a intelligent check of 10 represent when learning about a creature? Each DM will have a different answer. This gives you a direct way of knowing certain things.

Adding a Battlemaster type read-your-enemy feels fitting and a good ribbon. This might conflict with the standard advantage on Int checks regarding FE though?

Natural Explorer/Favored Terrain stays about the same, I mean, it's a good ribbon feature. Made it more flexible though, cause like, Rangers should be good at learning and exploring and not just about staying in one place. Oh, I want to put some anti-exhaustion stuff in this feature at level 6 and 13, which won't come up often, but will be nice add ons.

As a Ribbon it's fine yeah, though with stock ranger it's presented as a major feature and so feels lacking. If you're expanding on a ribbon at later levels it probably isn't really a ribbon though.

The base Ranger has a lot of Rogue + Fighter in it. I reimagined Cunning Action to be Explorer's Footwork. Dash, Hide, and Escaping a Grapple.

I've also thought a counterpart to cunning action would be great for the Ranger. 'Prey' like the Rogue hide and flee (Hide/Disengage) whereas 'Predators' like the Ranger hunt and chase (Search/Dash)

Ranger now gets the same number of ASI as the Rogue.

I suppose this is largely because you stripped out casting? Personally I don't know why it gets thrown away as often as it does, maybe make it a default 1/3rd caster class instead of a 1/2 caster one if it bothers you that Rangers are as capable spellcasters as Artificers and Paladins (arguable given spells known rather than prepped).

Land's Stride got a minor, but much needed, buff.

Eh, level 9 is pretty late to not be bothered by natural difficult terrain. This is the kind of level where things like Sleet Storm, Erupting Earth and Ice Storm become common, and some races get this at level 1.

HiPS... Part of me wanted to just remove this feature but the other part of me thinks it's pretty dang thematic and cool. Like, it should just be part of the base stealth rules, but, it's not so might as well keep it. Gave it a pretty good buff, you only need to reapply it when you get damaged. You can't get the bonus to stealth unless you aren't moving and take no actions like before, but it makes more thematic sense that you can move and do stuff, then run away and hide (like real camo).

One of my personal major issues with Ranger is that virtually nothing tells you it's a stealth focused (merely stealth capable) class until Tier 3. The Rogue gets that Stealth aspect drilled in before their subclass comes along, but the Ranger has Stealth on the proficiency list, one dot point in a ribbon and one spell on his list that implies Stealth as a thing they are good at. The fact that the post tier-2 stealth features are rather poor or extremely late rip-offs of the Rogue's stealth features is just salt in the wound.

Steel Will is now a base Ranger feature and I might change it around a bit tho. Maybe just immunity to frighten or something.

Again really late but not outright bad. Funny that even the Fighter doesn't get to ignore being scared of things.
But then again, maybe i'm just really used to martial features dropping off a cliff once you hit tiers 3 and 4. It's certainly a pattern.

Vanish got a huge buff.

See my thoughts on HiPS

Hunter, Warden & Witcher

I think you may start having trouble with subclasses in general because you've taken out spellcasting on a class that already leans pretty heavily on subclasses for its power budget (my term, i'm sure there's a better one around).

I think the core ranger needs to have three things.

+ Knowledge about how to kill things. The Ranger doesn't have all the tools, but, should be able to get the right tools.
+ Knowledge about environment.
+ Be a mix of Fighter/Rogue with a dash of other things sprinkled in. The Ranger is a hybrid class after all.

Agreed in broad terms. Rangers definitely fight but they fight smarter, not harder. They approach situations and conflict like a predator, not like a soldier. They make use of nature in a practical sense rather than revere it.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Before I go too deep into what you have there i'll try to narrow down some of my expectations so my feedback might actually be useful.

Firstly; is any of this supposed to interact with Tasha's Ranger alternatives or is all of that thrown out?

Mostly thrown out, I kinda forgot about it but the features either are more magical than I want or not as in depth.

Good move. Is FE supposed to function as a Ribbon or a central feature in this Ranger? Same question goes for Natural Explorer/Terrain.

Mostly a ribbon, but like the original, it does give some mechanical benefits with regard to knowledge, just like the original but it's expanded.

Adding a Battlemaster type read-your-enemy feels fitting and a good ribbon. This might conflict with the standard advantage on Int checks regarding FE though?

That's the thing, Int checks don't specifically call out what you can learn. So with Int checks you can still recall information about their rituals, their culture, or like their favorite food.

As a Ribbon it's fine yeah, though with stock ranger it's presented as a major feature and so feels lacking. If you're expanding on a ribbon at later levels it probably isn't really a ribbon though.

I'm very ok with it not being a true ribbon.

I've also thought a counterpart to cunning action would be great for the Ranger. 'Prey' like the Rogue hide and flee (Hide/Disengage) whereas 'Predators' like the Ranger hunt and chase (Search/Dash)

I thought about adding Bonus Action (Perception) to the Hunter subclass. Actually, I think I will do that since, yeah, Hunter.

I suppose this is largely because you stripped out casting? Personally I don't know why it gets thrown away as often as it does, maybe make it a default 1/3rd caster class instead of a 1/2 caster one if it bothers you that Rangers are as capable spellcasters as Artificers and Paladins (arguable given spells known rather than prepped).

Yeah, without casting the Ranger starts being built more like the Monk and I kinda prefer that. I'm not against a casting Ranger, but, casting ranger feels more like a subclass.

Eh, level 9 is pretty late to not be bothered by natural difficult terrain. This is the kind of level where things like Sleet Storm, Erupting Earth and Ice Storm become common, and some races get this at level 1.

I agree which is why I changed it to "any difficult terrain" and not just natural. With Explorer's Footwork the Ranger already gets to "ignore" difficult terrain in a way earlier in the class but this totally nullifies it so they can dash through difficult terrain.

One of my personal major issues with Ranger is that virtually nothing tells you it's a stealth focused (merely stealth capable) class until Tier 3. The Rogue gets that Stealth aspect drilled in before their subclass comes along, but the Ranger has Stealth on the proficiency list, one dot point in a ribbon and one spell on his list that implies Stealth as a thing they are good at. The fact that the post tier-2 stealth features are rather poor or extremely late rip-offs of the Rogue's stealth features is just salt in the wound.

Oh, don't get me wrong, the Ranger probably should just be a subclass. But the way I see the class is that at first it works on the knowledge/fighting but truly becomes a ranger when it can also stalk their prey. But I'm more redesigning what is already there than completely overhauling the Ranger. Maybe that's the same thing and I'm just be pedantic but it's like a remaster (redesign) and remake (overhaul)... If that makes sense.

Again really late but not outright bad. Funny that even the Fighter doesn't get to ignore being scared of things.
But then again, maybe i'm just really used to martial features dropping off a cliff once you hit tiers 3 and 4. It's certainly a pattern.

I think the only class that is truly well designed in 5e, like, from top to bottom, is the Rogue. Even classes like the Wizard need better design because their design is "no design" (my wizard is an example of having class features on a wizard... Need to relook at it and others someday).

Fighters should definitely have better mental saves at the very least. Indomitable should be a better feature, like, idk... Just auto-save on short rest. Being able to say "no" is a powerful and awesome feature.

See my thoughts on HiPS

Yeah, HiPS should be a base rule sort of thing. But, I see the first 10 levels of Ranger and the second 10 levels as having different ideologies, first you learn and kill, then to be a true predator you learn to stalk better... It's messy but that seems to be WotC's deisgn? I'm not sure they put a lot of effort into the Ranger though.

Actually, you know what, putting Hide in Plain Sight under Natural Explorer (really takes it out of ribbon territory) would work thematically. Make it where the bonus to stealth increases with levels so dipping isn't really broken... Hmmm...

I think you may start having trouble with subclasses in general because you've taken out spellcasting on a class that already leans pretty heavily on subclasses for its power budget (my term, i'm sure there's a better one around).

Personally I think the Ranger subclasses, other than Hunter, should probably fall under more utility than power. So with Witcher it would be more about being able to do elemental damage when needed and Warden more about setting traps via magic.

Agreed in broad terms. Rangers definitely fight but they fight smarter, not harder. They approach situations and conflict like a predator, not like a soldier. They make use of nature in a practical sense rather than revere it.

The biggest issue is that "fighting smarter" isn't part of the core rule design, the game promotes the Goku rule of fighting... Hit it really, really, hard. Together.


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Edit 1

A more ""thematic"" HiPS is when it's mixed in with Natural Explorer

Natural Explorer (+HiPS)

Starting at 1st level, you are particularly familiar with surveying environments and adapting to surviving in such regions. Choose two type of favored terrain: arctic, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, or swamp. This choice represents where you have been in the past and where you may be going in the future.

When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you're proficient in.

While traveling for an hour or more in your favored terrain, you gain the following benefits:

* Difficult terrain doesn't slow your group's travel.
* Your group can't become lost except by magical means.
* Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.
* If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
* When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.
* While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.


With a week of downtime, you may exchange a favored terrain with another one from the list above.


Additionally, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.

Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. This bonus increases by +2 at 6th level and again at 13th and 19th level.

You must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit if you are damaged while wearing the camouflage.

Starting at 6th level, you gain two additional favored terrains. When traveling in a group equal to or less than your proficiency bonus, you may move stealthily at a normal pace. You may switch out a single favored terrain with another one as part of a long rest.

Starting at 13th level, all terrains are considered favored terrains. You remove one level of exhaustion whenever you take a short rest and all levels of exhaustion at the end of a long rest.

You automatically know if the environment is being affected by a creature's lair. When you enter a lair of a creature, you may make an Wisdom (Survival) or Intelligence (Nature) check to determine the type of creature that has made the lair its home. The DC for the check is equal to the CR of the creature.


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Edit 2

Removing Favored Enemy and replacing it with "Monster Manual" could be, uh, fun.

Monster Manual

Starting at 1st level you gain a book called a monster manual. As you adventure you can write information about the creatures you have encountered.


You start off with a number of creatures in the book of your choice equal to 1 + your Wisdom Modifier. You gain an additional number of creature entries equal to your natural explorer bonus.

To add more creatures to your monster manual, you must watch these creatures in or out of combat. As an action, you can choose a creature you can see and call upon nature to whisper their secrets to you. You may do this a number of times per long rest equal to your Wisdom modifier.


If you lose your monster manual, or it is destroyed, you may commune with nature for one hour. This destroys your old monster manual and creates a new one.


You learn the following facts about creatures in your monster manual.

* Ability Scores
* Actions
* Max Hit Points
* Saving Throws
* Skills

Starting at 6th level, nature whispers additional lore about the creatures you place in your monster manual.

* Condition Immunities
* Damage Resistances
* Damage Immunities
* Damage Vulnerabilities


___
**Starting at 13th level**, nature warns you of additional information on the creatures placed in your monster manual.

* Legendary Actions
* Legendary Resistance (and max number of them)
* Lair Actions

[Kane0]

Righto thanks for that, time to dive in then.

Chassis: All seems fine here, keeping everything as-is plus the bonus tool prof

Etymologist: Odd to note that the languages are based off Prof bonus rather than Int or Wis, but not necessarily a bad thing.

FE: Lots to dissect here. Firstly it's a big chunk of text, especially for a ribbon, and it scales. What is it you want this ability to do? I know you're trying not to change up too much but you've gutted casting so I figure we can take the big pair of scissors to this and just take the parts that are really needed. For example toss the creature type stuff entirely, as an action you can take a look at a creature and determine X, Y and Z. At level 6 this becomes a bonus action and at 13 you can learn additional things.
A note on that though, some DMs might really hate it. I know a few that don't want information like that in the hands of players, for a variety of reasons. Maybe BM fighter and MM rogue get passes because of the time it takes or they're subclasses getting it at a later level or whatever but it's worth noting. Maybe put some sort of limit like Wis mod times per short/long rest so it doesn't get spammed on everything the Ranger encounters.

NE: Again a lot of writing for a ribbon. I'm not feeling the need for it to be terrain-limited, just let it apply everywhere and gradually open up more uses at levels 6 and 13. This would be the passive feature as opposed to FE which is an active ability. Oh and getting a climb and/or swim speed at some point feels appropriate as part of this ability.

Explorer's Footwork: Good counterpart to Cunning Action, though I would trade out Hide for something else to avoid it feeling too similar to the Rogue

Land's Stride: Level 8 ignore all difficult terrain, plus the bonuses vs plants. Nice. In fact, if you wanted to push the stealth thing you could swap out the plant ribbon for something like the original camouflage ability, which brings in stealth earlier on and opens up space for a different feature later on.

HiPS: Can we remove the 1 min prep? Maybe just 'after a long rest you can camouflage yourself to suit one terrain type, gaining a +5 to your stealth checks in that terrain and being able to hide without being obscured by going prone'. You've waited a long time for this, make it great.

Steel Will: roughly compares to the Rogue's late Wis save prof, but I wouldn't call it exceptional. At this point a party would have a number of ways of dealing with fear effects but I suppose it's one less party member to that needs it.

Vanish: I just don't like this one sorry. Pass Without Trace is a 2nd level spell that the stock Ranger has, plus the Druid and some other places like subclasses/races. This is 3 tiers too late, and high level threats don't track you, they scry you. You could make this straight up nondetection and render the Ranger completely invisible to any sort of tracking or magical divination attempt but is that too magical for this version of it? There is also pretty much no combat application to this either, which feels like a big loss for a capstone (i'm aware that not all capstones are combat focused but you've stated the ranger is a fighter-rogue blend and at this point I'm definitely feeling way more rogue than fighter influence, and even stroke of luck is great in a fight).

Overall:
Looking at the whole package, I found myself comparing this to the Rogue (given your statement on it being best designed, losing the casting and getting things like explorer's footwork and the extra ASI)
- You trade one skill prof for better HP and armor
- Expertise and reliable talent becomes FE/NE and languages
- Sneak attack becomes style and extra attack, but no damage progression beyond that at level 5
- Evasion and uncanny dodge become land stride and... actually there feels like there's a gap here, like the ranger needs some sort of defensive or reaction feature. Rogue's are really slippery with these and I don't think the Ranger can compete with that as it is here.
- Cunning action vs Explorer's Footwork
- Steel Will vs Slippery Mind
- Blindsense and Elusive vs HiPS and Feral Senses

Actually, that raises a concern. This version of the ranger doesn't have any way to increase it's damage aside from the standard style and extra attack. There is no damage progression past level 5, and that's a bit of a dealbreaker when you're talking about a martial class. There's no rage, martial arts/flurry, smite/IDS, sneak attack, action surge/Extra-extra attack or hex/hunter's mark. To me it's screaming for its own damage enhancing feature, maybe stealing something like Skirmish or Sudden Strike from previous editions.
Similarly, martials tend to get at least one or two longevity features in the early to mid levels (Danger Sense, Aura of Protection, Second Wind, Evasion, etc) but the Ranger is missing that. It's packed full of utility features with the barest minimum of combat which becomes apparent really quickly.

Under this light, to me it really does feel like a rather intensive alternate-class-feature suite for the Rogue rather than a class of its own. Granted this is still way better than just pointing at the scout rogue but I do think that there is just something missing (probably because I can't put aside the fact that stock has casting), even if you added a damage feature that would just feel like an alternative to sneak attack. BUT that is purely personal taste, it could be 100% samey-feeling to me and that wouldn't impact how it functions at all.

I think i'll refrain from touching subclasses until the base is finalized, don't want to offload all the problems there and leave an unsatisfying foundation.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Righto thanks for that, time to dive in then.

Chassis: All seems fine here, keeping everything as-is plus the bonus tool prof

Etymologist: Odd to note that the languages are based off Prof bonus rather than Int or Wis, but not necessarily a bad thing.

FE: Lots to dissect here. Firstly it's a big chunk of text, especially for a ribbon, and it scales. What is it you want this ability to do? I know you're trying not to change up too much but you've gutted casting so I figure we can take the big pair of scissors to this and just take the parts that are really needed. For example toss the creature type stuff entirely, as an action you can take a look at a creature and determine X, Y and Z. At level 6 this becomes a bonus action and at 13 you can learn additional things.
A note on that though, some DMs might really hate it. I know a few that don't want information like that in the hands of players, for a variety of reasons. Maybe BM fighter and MM rogue get passes because of the time it takes or they're subclasses getting it at a later level or whatever but it's worth noting. Maybe put some sort of limit like Wis mod times per short/long rest so it doesn't get spammed on everything the Ranger encounters.

NE: Again a lot of writing for a ribbon. I'm not feeling the need for it to be terrain-limited, just let it apply everywhere and gradually open up more uses at levels 6 and 13. This would be the passive feature as opposed to FE which is an active ability. Oh and getting a climb and/or swim speed at some point feels appropriate as part of this ability.

Explorer's Footwork: Good counterpart to Cunning Action, though I would trade out Hide for something else to avoid it feeling too similar to the Rogue

Land's Stride: Level 8 ignore all difficult terrain, plus the bonuses vs plants. Nice. In fact, if you wanted to push the stealth thing you could swap out the plant ribbon for something like the original camouflage ability, which brings in stealth earlier on and opens up space for a different feature later on.

HiPS: Can we remove the 1 min prep? Maybe just 'after a long rest you can camouflage yourself to suit one terrain type, gaining a +5 to your stealth checks in that terrain and being able to hide without being obscured by going prone'. You've waited a long time for this, make it great.

Steel Will: roughly compares to the Rogue's late Wis save prof, but I wouldn't call it exceptional. At this point a party would have a number of ways of dealing with fear effects but I suppose it's one less party member to that needs it.

Vanish: I just don't like this one sorry. Pass Without Trace is a 2nd level spell that the stock Ranger has, plus the Druid and some other places like subclasses/races. This is 3 tiers too late, and high level threats don't track you, they scry you. You could make this straight up nondetection and render the Ranger completely invisible to any sort of tracking or magical divination attempt but is that too magical for this version of it? There is also pretty much no combat application to this either, which feels like a big loss for a capstone (i'm aware that not all capstones are combat focused but you've stated the ranger is a fighter-rogue blend and at this point I'm definitely feeling way more rogue than fighter influence, and even stroke of luck is great in a fight).

Overall:
Looking at the whole package, I found myself comparing this to the Rogue (given your statement on it being best designed, losing the casting and getting things like explorer's footwork and the extra ASI)
- You trade one skill prof for better HP and armor
- Expertise and reliable talent becomes FE/NE and languages
- Sneak attack becomes style and extra attack, but no damage progression beyond that at level 5
- Evasion and uncanny dodge become land stride and... actually there feels like there's a gap here, like the ranger needs some sort of defensive or reaction feature. Rogue's are really slippery with these and I don't think the Ranger can compete with that as it is here.
- Cunning action vs Explorer's Footwork
- Steel Will vs Slippery Mind
- Blindsense and Elusive vs HiPS and Feral Senses

Actually, that raises a concern. This version of the ranger doesn't have any way to increase it's damage aside from the standard style and extra attack. There is no damage progression past level 5, and that's a bit of a dealbreaker when you're talking about a martial class. There's no rage, martial arts/flurry, smite/IDS, sneak attack, action surge/Extra-extra attack or hex/hunter's mark. To me it's screaming for its own damage enhancing feature, maybe stealing something like Skirmish or Sudden Strike from previous editions.
Similarly, martials tend to get at least one or two longevity features in the early to mid levels (Danger Sense, Aura of Protection, Second Wind, Evasion, etc) but the Ranger is missing that. It's packed full of utility features with the barest minimum of combat which becomes apparent really quickly.

Under this light, to me it really does feel like a rather intensive alternate-class-feature suite for the Rogue rather than a class of its own. Granted this is still way better than just pointing at the scout rogue but I do think that there is just something missing (probably because I can't put aside the fact that stock has casting), even if you added a damage feature that would just feel like an alternative to sneak attack. BUT that is purely personal taste, it could be 100% samey-feeling to me and that wouldn't impact how it functions at all.

I think i'll refrain from touching subclasses until the base is finalized, don't want to offload all the problems there and leave an unsatisfying foundation.

Honestly, the Rogue is my favorite Fighter (sword n board) so I'm a bit biased on the Rogue (though, tbf, it gets some sick abilities late levels).

Anyways... I think the damage progression should be in the Sub-classes. This way damage versus utility can be balanced out a lot better and you can do some weird stuff with it. But yeah, biggest issue with the Ranger and having the core class give a damage progression is that it will come off as either looking like the Fighter (more attacks), Rogue (extra damage), or Paladin (limited use smites) and I just don't like that lol. I think the Ranger can have a lot of different damage progressions with the subclasses to make them stand out a bit.

Giving the base class some offense, some defense, and some utility and letting the subclasses build off that might be the best way to make the Ranger really stand out.

After reading your original response a couple times I realized that in its base form, the Ranger is just too much of a mess. I still think that it should be a subclass but if it is a class, I think removing Favored Enemy fluff and replacing it with something else that is thematic is the way to go. Favored Enemy just... It's so restrictive and weird.

So I gave the Ranger a Pokedex. I mean, I call it a monster manual, cause lol meta, but it's basically a Ranger thematic pokedex.

I'm only a little sorry about calling it a pokedex in the previous sentence.

The Ranger already has a niche that is about knowing enemies, exploring, and all that... So let's give the Ranger something to do with it. The Ranger is creating a book of all the monsters they can, to share their knowledge.

Also, Natural Explorer doesn't need to be a ribbon.

There's a way to both make the Ranger thematically a predator and turn Natural Explorer into a real class feature. Shove HiPS inside Natural Explorer.

I know, I know, I'm crazy but this allows the Natural Explorer/Favored Terrain to mesh better with the Ranger being a hunter as part of the base class (the subclass needs a new name, like, some sort of Apex Predator name). Tying some class features into the Natural Explorer Bonus allows HiPS to scale with level instead of just being a flat bonus. This does mean that level 1 dips are very nice, but, a lot of level 1-3 dips are very nice (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, etc...) so that isn't a huge concern. I think keeping the 1 minute prep time is fine as it's mostly thematic and it wouldn't be something you do in combat. It's not as fast as a spell, but not as slow as a ritual.

Land's Stride mixed with Explorer's Footwork allows Land's Stride to scale with level and show how the Ranger grows. At low level the Ranger can ignore non-magical terrain, but eventually can ignore magical and non-magical terrain.

I removed Vanish. It was feeling off. I like the idea of it and may put it in a Subclass though. But yeah... There are other ways of going.

Explorer's Sense gives a boost to initiative. It also shows that the Ranger is starting to hone into their instincts and bridges into Feral Senses (can't call anything Feral Instincts since, you know, barbarian).


I modified Steel Will. It is now Iron Mind, Steel Will, and Adamantine Determination.

Iron Mind is a Warden Class feature from 4e.

Steel Will supplements Iron Mind and gives an immunity to frightened.

Iron Determination is the big one in this line. Immunity to "magic subjugation". Needs to be reworded but basically, the Ranger can't be mind controlled. Which, if you're going up against some of the nastier monsters, this will be really nice to have. It's not the best capstone, but, it isn't Foe Slayer either.

Sorry been up for a while and need sleep but I've re-hauled a lot. The more I look at the Ranger the more I hate it though haha.


Edit

I think I'm going to take away shield proficiency and put that into the Warden Subclass. The base ranger doesn't really scream "shield" to me as they are all about stalking and hunting and that's not something you would do with a shield. Most of the rangers in fictions from Crocodile Dundee to Geralt don't really use a shield.

Wardens would get it since their main thing is Thorn Whip, which is about bringing enemies closer and keeping them close. Other Rangers are about hitting and getting away or hitting from afar.

[Kane0]

After reading your original response a couple times I realized that in its base form, the Ranger is just too much of a mess. I still think that it should be a subclass but if it is a class, I think removing Favored Enemy fluff and replacing it with something else that is thematic is the way to go. Favored Enemy just... It's so restrictive and weird.

The Ranger already has a niche that is about knowing enemies, exploring, and all that... So let's give the Ranger something to do with it. The Ranger is creating a book of all the monsters they can, to share their knowledge.

Putting aside how meta it is;
- Would it be better to make the NE bonus a die that increases in size? 5e tends to shy away from straight numberical bonuses especially if it exceeds prof bonus.
- How specific are we talking with these creatures? If I've got zombie in the book does that also work for ogre zombie or a zombie with a template added to it? What about one specific zombie with a name and backstory?

It sounds like a really strong feature, but also very dependant on your DM. That goes for the BM fighter and MM rogue features too so I guess we can leave that in the 'lets see how it plays out' category.

Shove HiPS inside Natural Explorer.

Sure could, but it makes NE even more bloated. There's plenty of more elegant ways to get across the same thematics in the mechanics.
For example: Natural Explorer
- You get your choice of a Climb or Swim speed equal to your move speed
- You gain Expertise in your choice of Animal Handling, Nature, Stealth or Survival
- While traveling you can move at normal speed or remain alert to danger while performing another activity (foraging, navigating, tracking, etc).

Then for improvements each time you can do thing like:
- another expertise from the list
- HiPS camouflage
- Removing exhaustion
- Knowing when/what Lair actions and effects are active

Putting the BA movement and Nature's Stride together into one feature is a good move.

Explorer's Sense gives a boost to initiative. It also shows that the Ranger is starting to hone into their instincts and bridges into Feral Senses (can't call anything Feral Instincts since, you know, barbarian).

Yeah seems good, it's late enough that it can't be easily stacked for ridiculous bonuses to Init but is a substantial bonus and does stack so you are reliably going first or among the first. I suppose some subclasses would really capitalize on that?

I modified Steel Will. It is now Iron Mind, Steel Will, and Adamantine Determination.

That's a good chain, and feels thematically cohesive with the Exhaustion recovery.

I still think that it should be a subclass but-
The more I look at the Ranger the more I hate it though

In my experience this is the biggest factor in how these things turn out. Go with what draws you; you can fight the urge and try to make it work as a full class but if you don't feel like it should be then it won't be your best work. I don't think anybody would begrudge you for making a Ranger subclass even if they disagree that it should be like that.

Edit
I think I'm going to take away shield proficiency and put that into the Warden Subclass.

Wardens would get it since their main thing is Thorn Whip, which is about bringing enemies closer and keeping them close. Other Rangers are about hitting and getting away or hitting from afar.

Fair enough, though this does present the base class as a little bit more rogue and a little bit less fighter than it is already.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Putting aside how meta it is;
- Would it be better to make the NE bonus a die that increases in size? 5e tends to shy away from straight numberical bonuses especially if it exceeds prof bonus.
- How specific are we talking with these creatures? If I've got zombie in the book does that also work for ogre zombie or a zombie with a template added to it? What about one specific zombie with a name and backstory?

It sounds like a really strong feature, but also very dependant on your DM. That goes for the BM fighter and MM rogue features too so I guess we can leave that in the 'lets see how it plays out' category.


Sure could, but it makes NE even more bloated. There's plenty of more elegant ways to get across the same thematics in the mechanics.
For example: Natural Explorer
- You get your choice of a Climb or Swim speed equal to your move speed
- You gain Expertise in your choice of Animal Handling, Nature, Stealth or Survival
- While traveling you can move at normal speed or remain alert to danger while performing another activity (foraging, navigating, tracking, etc).

Then for improvements each time you can do thing like:
- another expertise from the list
- HiPS camouflage
- Removing exhaustion
- Knowing when/what Lair actions and effects are active

Putting the BA movement and Nature's Stride together into one feature is a good move.


Yeah seems good, it's late enough that it can't be easily stacked for ridiculous bonuses to Init but is a substantial bonus and does stack so you are reliably going first or among the first. I suppose some subclasses would really capitalize on that?


That's a good chain, and feels thematically cohesive with the Exhaustion recovery.


In my experience this is the biggest factor in how these things turn out. Go with what draws you; you can fight the urge and try to make it work as a full class but if you don't feel like it should be then it won't be your best work. I don't think anybody would begrudge you for making a Ranger subclass even if they disagree that it should be like that.


Fair enough, though this does present the base class as a little bit more rogue and a little bit less fighter than it is already.

The system likes to say it doesn't give flat number bonuses but it does all the time with stuff like HiPS, Magic Weapon, Dueling Style, Rage, and a bunch of other stuff (like the cover rules too). Having a class that uses flat numbers is fine.

Especially if it helps the class stand out a bit.

Basically, whatever entrees you see in the Monster Manual would be peaceable in the Ranger's Monster Manual. Bob the Bone Devil would be put in as "bone devil". Now if a DM wanted to make a homebrew monster then that could be put in too.

Expertise is a stronger feature overall and that gets a nice boost with Reliable Talent at 10th level. Even with my additions, MM is borderline ribbon. I'm removing most of the ability check bonuses from the MM feature.

Natural Explorer being bloated isn't really an issue as "spellcasting" is way more bloated of a feature(s) and they give you so much more than what Natural Explorer does. It's only "bloated" compared to what martials get.

I'm all for a change on Natural Explorer but I don't think bloat is the issue. I also like HiPS starting at first level as it gives the ranger a mechanical identity of being sneaky in their own way like Rage or Sneak Attack. I think removing the "favored" in favored terrain is a good idea though. Making this a straight up wilderness feature is the way to go.


**Edit**

I condensed MM and NE for simplicity and mixed them around a bit. Had them end at level 10 so I can make Vanish a thing again that works off MM and NE. Vanish now makes it where the Ranger has learned how to deal with higher level threats that have special senses, and works off HiPS, so there's some connection to earlier features.

Monster Manual is now pretty much 100% ribbon. I mean, you still get some use out of it in a round about way, but, it's not a pseudo-ribbon anymore and won't be confusing on that end.

**Edit 2**

Monster Manual is now called Creature Catalogue for clarity sake.