New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 69
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2021

    Default How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Eschew materials lets you cast spells without material components that costs 1 gp or less. Thing is, a spell component pouch gives the caster an infinite amount of every material component that has no listed cost. Here's a list of spells that require a material component that has a listed cost less than or equal to 1 gp:

    Detect Thoughts: 1 cp
    Gentle Repose: 1 cp per eye on corpse
    Fabricate: The original material (only applies to items for which the raw materials to craft cost 1 gp or less)

    That's it. 3 spells in the entirety of the player's handbook that fall under this condition. There may be others in non core books, but the point is that there are very, very few cases where this feat is useful. In my game, I've increased the gp equivalence to 250 gp, which allows for you cast stuff like identify, stoneskin, true seeing, and others without paying. I don't know if this is the best way to solve this, but please let me know if y'all have a better solution (or a reason not to change it in the first place).

    Edit: I've been informed that it is a move action to take a component out of the component pouch. Eschew materials let's you bypass that, making it much better than I originally thought. Thanks for the feedback!

    Edit (again): Previous edit has been questioned, looking in chapter 8 (Combat) of the players handbook under the actions in combat section, it specifically says preparing a spell component to cast a spell is a free action that provokes no attack of opportunity. Continue informing me of eschew materials use cases, nothing to see here.
    Last edited by Hachristo; 2021-04-09 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Retraction Retracted

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    well to be fair spell pouch isn't infinite like some magical arrow quivers. the materials are so common and so cheap keeping track of them would be a nuisance. if a caster was in an isolated environment for an extended time the dm would be well within fairness to begin saying you run out. it is also used a lot in monsters for whom it would be strange to carry a pouch or have anatomical reasons not to wear one.
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    EU
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Does it need "fixing"? It does exactly what it says: you can play a caster without having to worry about your component pouch getting damaged or lost, or being somewhere where the handwaving doesn't work (stuck in a desert, another plane, and so on).

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Yeah the point of this feat is not to be in the narrow zone of "components you can't get automatically from a pouch that cost 1 gp or less". It's supposed to substitute for the pouch entirely.
    Excel sheet for 3.5 -- Native support for stacking rules and multiple forms; as lightweight as possible otherwise. (links currently broken, if you want a copy LMK)

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Just a note: plane shift requires a tuning fork made from a material from the plane in question. Obtaining such can be a real pain if there're reasons why you wouldn't be able to get one despite what's printed in the rules for a spell component pouch. For instance, it's a demiplane created by an enemy spellcaster and you have no way to get material from said plane. Eschew Materials would allow you to go there, whereas it's unlikely a DM would allow you to do so with just a spell component pouch. Yes, this is Rule 0, and yes, it goes against RAW of the pouch. It's still a point to be made, however.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2021

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    Does it need "fixing"? It does exactly what it says: you can play a caster without having to worry about your component pouch getting damaged or lost, or being somewhere where the handwaving doesn't work (stuck in a desert, another plane, and so on).
    Honestly I would much rather buy spare pouches than expend a feat, especially if I'm not a human. I suppose that a lot of the feats available to casters in core at first level aren't the greatest (Spell Penetration, Spell Focus, Spell Mastery), but you could always play the long game and get a metamagic feat. If I was running a game where I was super tactical and had all my enemies try to sunder the caster's pouch, I would be more hesitant to buff the feat, but currently most of my players prefer a casual, easy going game, so I don't have such considerations.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Think about how big a spell pouch is, how much weight the materials would take up, and realize that the only reason it is infinite is because the DM allows it to be. It's simply a handwave device, but that doesn't mean you should take it for granted. It can be sundered, AoE'd, or taken from you. Getting an item out of the pouch is a move action. Eschew materials makes it so you don't have to bother getting the items out.
    Last edited by Darg; 2021-04-09 at 01:25 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2021

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Just a note: plane shift requires a tuning fork made from a material from the plane in question. Obtaining such can be a real pain if there're reasons why you wouldn't be able to get one despite what's printed in the rules for a spell component pouch. For instance, it's a demiplane created by an enemy spellcaster and you have no way to get material from said plane. Eschew Materials would allow you to go there, whereas it's unlikely a DM would allow you to do so with just a spell component pouch. Yes, this is Rule 0, and yes, it goes against RAW of the pouch. It's still a point to be made, however.
    That's actually a really cool usage I hadn't thought about. Thanks for the input!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2021

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Getting an item out of the pouch is a move action. Eschew materials makes it so you don't have to bother getting the items out.
    If that's true than I retract any complaints. Eschew Materials OP

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Tula, Russia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Hachristo View Post
    Here's a list of spells that require a material component that has a listed cost less than or equal to 1 gp:

    Detect Thoughts: 1 cp
    Gentle Repose: 1 cp per eye on corpse
    Fabricate: The original material (only applies to items for which the raw materials to craft cost 1 gp or less)

    That's it. 3 spells in the entirety of the player's handbook that fall under this condition. There may be others in non core books, but the point is that there are very, very few cases where this feat is useful.
    Dragon scale costs 1 gp
    It's material component for:
    Dragon Breath (Spell Compendium)
    Dragonskin (Spell Compendium)
    Hide from Dragons (Spell Compendium)
    Scorch (Spell Compendium)
    Sense of the Dragon (Races of the Dragon)
    Summon Aspect of Bahamut (Races of the Dragon)
    Wall of Scales (Races of the Dragon)

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Just a note: plane shift requires a tuning fork made from a material from the plane in question. Obtaining such can be a real pain if there're reasons why you wouldn't be able to get one despite what's printed in the rules for a spell component pouch. For instance, it's a demiplane created by an enemy spellcaster and you have no way to get material from said plane. Eschew Materials would allow you to go there, whereas it's unlikely a DM would allow you to do so with just a spell component pouch. Yes, this is Rule 0, and yes, it goes against RAW of the pouch. It's still a point to be made, however.
    Doesn't work. Eschew Materials only allows you to ignore material components. The tuning fork is a focus component.

    Also, the tuning fork doesn't need to be made from something from the target plane. It just needs to be "A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures." What metal corresponds to what plane is left to the DM, so that they have control over how easy or difficult it is to get the right tuning fork.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Doesn't work. Eschew Materials only allows you to ignore material components. The tuning fork is a focus component.

    Also, the tuning fork doesn't need to be made from something from the target plane. It just needs to be "A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures." What metal corresponds to what plane is left to the DM, so that they have control over how easy or difficult it is to get the right tuning fork.
    After looking things over, you're correct.

    Though the same still applies for simulacrum and ice assassin.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-04-09 at 01:49 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Troacctid's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Hachristo View Post
    If that's true than I retract any complaints. Eschew Materials OP
    It is not true.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jack_Simth's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    It is not true.
    More specifically, it's a free action most of the time, full-round when grappling.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    It's pretty useful if you like magic jar, lets you cast spells while possession people who don't have a pouch.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Some of it is to save roleplay time. You just assume that the cavalcade of "free" but weird stuff (including, oddly, the live spider you need to swallow for spider climb) are there with every pouch but if you lose your pouch, I guess you could roleplay looking for a spider to swallow, etc. And it is easier to have the pouch, or the feat, than roleplaying hunting up every free thing of every spell you cast, or can cast, that has a free but weird material component.

    Mind you, an illusionist sans spell component pouch or eschew materials feat can get quite far with just a fleecy coat that they can take little bits of fleece off of at need.

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Things mentioned so far
    Numerous components cost 1g to 2cp.

    Using a Pouch while being grappled is a full round action

    Simulacrum and ice assassin tom foolery. ( I disallow this, the items in those cases are more of a focus that is consumed not a cheap spell component). 99% of ice assassin usage doesn't fly.

    Here is one that isn't mentioned yet.

    Bluffing while spell casting. If you silent and still a spell that uses components you can still easily be called out and the spell can be identified. You MUST have eschew mats to pull off a con using most magic.

    I have always seen Eschew Mats as metamagic modifier, but instead of playing the metamagic game like silent and still (+1 adjustment was the minimum when 3rd first came out) but the OG designers didn't want to punish casters with another penalty. Instead they opted to have this apply to all spells cast by the feat holder.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder999 View Post
    It's pretty useful if you like magic jar, lets you cast spells while possession people who don't have a pouch.
    I must admit, I hadn't thought of that.

    … are there any builds (or monsters) that would noticeably make use of this? I seem to recall one Undead-piloting build, maybe?

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    In my campaign sorcerers and similar get eshew materials for free. Not that it comes up a lot but it just feels right to leave the fiddling with bat guano and other obscure ingredients to the wizards.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    If you have a DM that likes to capture you a lot and you end up in jail with no equipment, this feat is mandatory.

    The usefulness of this feat id directly proportional to how RAW your DM is on components. Arcane focus also removes a lot of the need for this too.
    Last edited by Zaile; 2021-04-09 at 06:55 PM.
    Signature verification required.

    Latest Homebrew: The Battledancer 5e Dragonfire Adept 5e

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by gijoemike View Post
    I have always seen Eschew Mats as metamagic modifier, but instead of playing the metamagic game like silent and still (+1 adjustment was the minimum when 3rd first came out) but the OG designers didn't want to punish casters with another penalty. Instead they opted to have this apply to all spells cast by the feat holder.
    A spell cast with Eschew Materials can be cast with no material components. Spells without material components are not affected. Spells with material components with a cost of more than 1 gp are not affected. An eschewed spell uses up a spell slot of the spell’s normal level
    The feat was, to my knowledge, first published in Deities in Demigods, as a 3.0 source. The feat very clearly has a metamagic cost of +0.

    It should be noted that, for whatever reason, your game going into Epic level, taking Eschew Material becomes a bit of a power play, as it is a requirement for possibly one of the second most exploitable feats in the entire game, Ignore Material Components losing out only to Epic Spellcasting as a means of generating wealth (casting time of Fabricate and the high level requirement really thwarts it).

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    It is not true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    More specifically, it's a free action most of the time, full-round when grappling.
    Where is this? It's a move action to retrieve a stored item. Did I skip over some text somewhere?

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Earth and/or not-Earth
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Where is this? It's a move action to retrieve a stored item. Did I skip over some text somewhere?
    It's on the table of free actions in the Actions in Combat section.
    I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Crake's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Hachristo View Post
    Eschew materials lets you cast spells without material components that costs 1 gp or less. Thing is, a spell component pouch gives the caster an infinite amount of every material component that has no listed cost. Here's a list of spells that require a material component that has a listed cost less than or equal to 1 gp:

    Detect Thoughts: 1 cp
    Gentle Repose: 1 cp per eye on corpse
    Fabricate: The original material (only applies to items for which the raw materials to craft cost 1 gp or less)

    That's it. 3 spells in the entirety of the player's handbook that fall under this condition. There may be others in non core books, but the point is that there are very, very few cases where this feat is useful. In my game, I've increased the gp equivalence to 250 gp, which allows for you cast stuff like identify, stoneskin, true seeing, and others without paying. I don't know if this is the best way to solve this, but please let me know if y'all have a better solution (or a reason not to change it in the first place).

    Edit: I've been informed that it is a move action to take a component out of the component pouch. Eschew materials let's you bypass that, making it much better than I originally thought. Thanks for the feedback!

    Edit (again): Previous edit has been questioned, looking in chapter 8 (Combat) of the players handbook under the actions in combat section, it specifically says preparing a spell component to cast a spell is a free action that provokes no attack of opportunity. Continue informing me of eschew materials use cases, nothing to see here.
    So I can spam fabricate daily to make 750gp items out of nothing and then sell them for easy money? With just the investment of a single feat, I can make thousands of gp per day? Nice.
    World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
    The new Quick Vestige List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    It's on the table of free actions in the Actions in Combat section.
    That says to prepare it, not bring it out of storage though. It also doesn't say that it is a special property of the spell component pouch either. I guess technically the rules don't require you to have the component in hand to cast as it only requires you to possess the item, but then that invalidates the need for the grapple component retrieval rule. Except for the specific rule requiring components to be in hand while grappled... Although I think the intent is for components to be in hand/touching your body in some way, maybe it is something they wanted to do away with similar to overrun on a charge which is mentioned in a few separate places.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Earth and/or not-Earth
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    That says to prepare it, not bring it out of storage though. It also doesn't say that it is a special property of the spell component pouch either. I guess technically the rules don't require you to have the component in hand to cast as it only requires you to possess the item, but then that invalidates the need for the grapple component retrieval rule. Except for the specific rule requiring components to be in hand while grappled... Although I think the intent is for components to be in hand/touching your body in some way, maybe it is something they wanted to do away with similar to overrun on a charge which is mentioned in a few separate places.
    What does preparing a component mean, if not taking it out of storage?
    I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    What does preparing a component mean, if not taking it out of storage?
    For a focus it could be positioning it to be used as a focus. For components it could be dumping the sand out of the small vial holding it, throwing some tarts, unwrapping a bit of flesh, drip a few drops of water, etc. It really doesn't fit the iconic image of a wizard to simply dump all that stuff outside of containers to keep materials separate and preserved into a bag. I mean, water evaporates fairly quickly you know?

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2021

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    So I can spam fabricate daily to make 750gp items out of nothing and then sell them for easy money? With just the investment of a single feat, I can make thousands of gp per day? Nice.
    I haven't had anyone in my game try this; obviously this should not be the case. I would make fabricate's component a focus instead of a material, as technically the component is not expended, just transformed in shape.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jack_Simth's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Hachristo View Post
    I haven't had anyone in my game try this; obviously this should not be the case. I would make fabricate's component a focus instead of a material, as technically the component is not expended, just transformed in shape.
    Just run it like the psionic version: the original materials are the targets, not a component. Also prevents bypasses via things like spell-like abilities.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Drelua's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How to Fix Eschew Materials

    It's not a particularly powerful feat, but I'd say it's plenty useful. The smart thing to do if you take it is to continue using your components pouch so people still think you need it, then if you get captured they'll take it and won't know you can still cast all your spells. It doesn't usually matter, but when it does you'll be very glad to have it. It is very DM dependent of course, but it's still pretty good for core.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronikoce View Post
    If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to hold it for me you wouldn't say they were wielding the candlestick. If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to club an intruder to death you would say they were wielding the candlestick. The act of using the held item for a purpose such as intruder clubbing changes the word that ought to be used.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •