Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat? Let's Play Starcraft 2: Heart of the Swarm

[Lord Torath]

Psyren already pointed out the strategic direction given to the other broodmothers, so I don't need to.

I very much like Glyphstone's reinterpretation. When (in the game) Kerrigan tells Valerian that Col. Orlan has one hour, I rolled my eyes. Seriously, Blizzard? And if it takes longer, what's she going do? Stomp her foot? Lay down on the floor and scream? That was a particularly stupid piece of dialog. At least Valerian's response was intelligent.

I also loved the way the automated starport/factory is (almost certainly) Mira's with a fresh paint job. She wants to help Matt, but she does need to be concerned about her reputation. Totally in character for her. Made me laugh!

Does make we wonder about why they'd use actual crews for most ships when the fully-automated ones - even up to battlecruisers - seem to work well. On the other hand, the Hyperion beats them handily, so maybe that's argument enough. (But probably not). Does make me feel better about letting the fleet suicide itself against Mira's defenses, though.

[Keltest]

There is actually an even bigger variety of Ultralisk called an Omegalisk. They show up like twice, ever. Once in "belly of the beast" trying to gnaw on some marines, and one at each end of the bridge in "In utter darkness" trying to stop you from leaving.

[The Glyphstone]

Does make we wonder about why they'd use actual crews for most ships when the fully-automated ones - even up to battlecruisers - seem to work well. On the other hand, the Hyperion beats them handily, so maybe that's argument enough. (But probably not). Does make me feel better about letting the fleet suicide itself against Mira's defenses, though.

That's the only reason I threw that bit in at all - to the best of my knowledge Starcraft has nothing approaching (sapient) A.I., at least in Terran tech (Protoss are another story). So fully automated ships are entirely non-canonical here, but I'd already written the Raiders to be on the ropes for resources.

[Keltest]

That's the only reason I threw that bit in at all - to the best of my knowledge Starcraft has nothing approaching (sapient) A.I., at least in Terran tech (Protoss are another story). So fully automated ships are entirely non-canonical here, but I'd already written the Raiders to be on the ropes for resources.

Actually, if you select the enemy ships, they use the adjutant portrait. They are actually canonically AI-driven.

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, if you select the enemy ships, they use the adjutant portrait. They are actually canonically AI-driven.

...Huh. Well, you learn something new every day, I guess.

[Keltest]

As far as terran AI goes, its not great, but they do have fully automated combat drones, like spider/widow mines. Ravens are also at the very least remotely piloted. I dont think its ever explicitly stated whether there is a human giving them directions in real time or not. They dont lean into it nearly as hard as the protoss do, but they do utilize it.

[The Glyphstone]

Poking at the wiki, the Umojan Protectorate apparently also leans more heavily into AI usage, beyond acceptable limits in the Dominion. So I guess its not a matter of technical ability so much as it is laws and legality, which of course mercenary pirates couldn't care less about. So hey, another piece of fanon retroactively made into actual canon. That closet is getting pretty large and comfy.

[Psyren]

That's the only reason I threw that bit in at all - to the best of my knowledge Starcraft has nothing approaching (sapient) A.I., at least in Terran tech (Protoss are another story). So fully automated ships are entirely non-canonical here, but I'd already written the Raiders to be on the ropes for resources.

Adjutants were already pointed out (though I would classify them as closer to VI than AI, in Mass Effect terms.) The Science Vessels are also piloted by synthetics, and they may be closer to fully-actualized AI judging by their voicelines.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, adjutants are more VI, explicitly non-sapient which is why I had to throw in that disclaimer. As far as the science vessels, I always thought they were cyborgs, but maybe I was wrong? Lookin at the portrait again does give me an impression of 'rubber face stapled onto a robot'.

[Psyren]

Even if they are cyborgs rather than robots with rubber faces, that's still a form of AI I'd say. No doubt it has something to do with the fact that those ships are working with highly radioactive materials that may or may not be contained.

(It does beg the question of why they only use such technology for that unit.)

[The Glyphstone]

Eh, the whole Terran approach to technology is kinda slapdash and jerry-rigged as a whole, its part of their redneck space cowboy aesthetic.

It does make me want to see a proper UED representation, though, with the two centuries of technical advantage they have over the Koprolu sector. Revitalize the Dominion's scrappy underdog feel in contrast, so to speak - its harder to do that with Protoss because they're ancient aliens.

[Psyren]

Yeah I could easily see the conversation:

Fighter Jockey: "Hey Wyatt, didja hear the boys in R&D cooked up a robo-pilot to fly that science ship carrying vats of fis-sile material we can dump out on them there zerg?"
Engineer: "Whoa Cletus, wait, it can fly a ship? In perfect formation? Why the hell are we still putting human pilots in danger then? Your engines are radioactive too!"
Jockey: *spits chewing tobacco* "If we're not in the jets, how the hell would we get to blow anything up? For a science guy you're awful stupid sometimes."

[Lord Torath]

Yeah, adjutants are more VI, explicitly non-sapient which is why I had to throw in that disclaimer. As far as the science vessels, I always thought they were cyborgs, but maybe I was wrong? Lookin at the portrait again does give me an impression of 'rubber face stapled onto a robot'.

I'm pretty sure Matt Horner specifically says "automated" when describing the factory/starport thingy when it first warps in. So yeah, AI all the way.
Edit: I just played through this again. Matt says the station sends out automated fighters. Mira says "Fully-automated <stations? starports? facilities?> are very expensive!" when you destroy one of hers.

Yeah I could easily see the conversation:

Fighter Jockey: "Hey Wyatt, didja hear the boys in R&D cooked up a robo-pilot to fly that science ship carrying vats of fis-sile material we can dump out on them there zerg?"
Engineer: "Whoa Cletus, wait, it can fly a ship? In perfect formation? Why the hell are we still putting human pilots in danger then? Your engines are radioactive too!"
Jockey: *spits chewing tobacco* "If we're not in the jets, how the hell would we get to blow anything up? For a science guy you're awful stupid sometimes."

Humans. We're so dumb.

[noob]

I'm pretty sure Matt Horner specifically says "automated" when describing the factory/starport thingy when it first warps in. So yeah, AI all the way.

Humans. We're so dumb.

Like "we need expendable workforce on the battlefield that we know will be targeted specifically by the ennemies".
Send in the engineers and make them pilot giant vehicles(SC1)!
Make the giant vehicle frailer and bigger at once(in SC2 they say that the brood war ones were smaller and now the new ones have less hp than the brood war ones)!
Invent AI piloted harvesters? Do not use it to replace the engineers and instead only make temporary variants dropped on demand.
The fact SCVS are still piloted by engineers is probably the most critical symptom of terrans having way too many scientists and not doing anything coherent with those (it is why there is dozens of experimental researches done in corners nobody hears about: the leaders have no clue what engineers and scientists can do nor the value of those people because there is way too many and most of those do not get to say any word about what to do next)

[The Glyphstone]

SCVs are also, canonically, larger than Goliaths. That is just weird, really.

[Keltest]

SCVs are also, canonically, larger than Goliaths. That is just weird, really.

Goliaths are slightly taller. SCVs i think are bulkier.

[Brother Oni]

SCVs are also, canonically, larger than Goliaths. That is just weird, really.

Not really when you start looking at super heavy construction equipment.

For example, the Komatsu P&H L-2350 Loader is bigger than a main battle tank and at 272 tonnes, weighs at least 4 of them.

[Winthur]

Like "we need expendable workforce on the battlefield that we know will be targeted specifically by the ennemies".
Send in the engineers and make them pilot giant vehicles(SC1)!

It doesn't seem like the SCV crews are usually considered skilled labor - lore and character dialogue alludes to them being conscripts fearing for their lives and choosing to stay in the backline for a really small wage. I'd wager that Terran infrastructure comes with an IKEA-style instruction manual. Raynor's Raiders would probably need to agitate for their cause at a lot of colleges if SCV work required a degree. Actual scientists get to stay in the comfy 850 HP engineering bay box.

Make the giant vehicle frailer and bigger at once(in SC2 they say that the brood war ones were smaller and now the new ones have less hp than the brood war ones)!

HP values should be probably considered abstract. Nothing suggests Zealots got "worse" in SC2 even though their effective HP dropped by 10 between games.

Invent AI piloted harvesters? Do not use it to replace the engineers and instead only make temporary variants dropped on demand.

MULEs run on batteries and are made of standard issue beer-can-and-bubblegum engineering, so they can't replace SCVs wholesale yet.

[Psyren]

Like "we need expendable workforce on the battlefield that we know will be targeted specifically by the ennemies".
Send in the engineers and make them pilot giant vehicles(SC1)!
Make the giant vehicle frailer and bigger at once(in SC2 they say that the brood war ones were smaller and now the new ones have less hp than the brood war ones)!
Invent AI piloted harvesters? Do not use it to replace the engineers and instead only make temporary variants dropped on demand.
The fact SCVS are still piloted by engineers is probably the most critical symptom of terrans having way too many scientists and not doing anything coherent with those (it is why there is dozens of experimental researches done in corners nobody hears about: the leaders have no clue what engineers and scientists can do nor the value of those people because there is way too many and most of those do not get to say any word about what to do next)

I think you're overstating the engineer training of SCVs. They're blue-collar workers closer to welders or heavy-machine operators, following a predetermined set of blueprints, not actual physicists. Sure what they do involves a lot of engineering, much like making sturdy bridges or working cars involves a lot of engineering, but once you have the design figured out then the actual mass-production doesn't really need to be done by engineers.

MULEs run on batteries and are made of standard issue beer-can-and-bubblegum engineering, so they can't replace SCVs wholesale yet.

In addition, while great at harvesting and repairs, IIRC they can't build anything new - so SCVs would still be needed.

[noob]

It doesn't seem like the SCV crews are usually considered skilled labor - lore and character dialogue alludes to them being conscripts fearing for their lives and choosing to stay in the backline for a really small wage. I'd wager that Terran infrastructure comes with an IKEA-style instruction manual. Raynor's Raiders would probably need to agitate for their cause at a lot of colleges if SCV work required a degree. Actual scientists get to stay in the comfy 850 HP engineering bay box.

HP values should be probably considered abstract. Nothing suggests Zealots got "worse" in SC2 even though their effective HP dropped by 10 between games.

MULEs run on batteries and are made of standard issue beer-can-and-bubblegum engineering, so they can't replace SCVs wholesale yet.

If the possibility of making an harvesting ai is here then it would probably be possible to make ai directed scvs that are able only to mine and repair thus allowing to only have a dozen of SCVS with engineers per battlefield instead of going up to 80 engineers.
And raynor scvs do often get to build entirely new blueprints that just were uploaded mid mission and you need actual skill to start applying an instruction guide you just got to build a building.
Furthermore terrans (either mules or scvs) can just start repairing a brand newly introduced protoss mechanical unit they just met.(How? That looks complicated as heck)

[Winthur]

If the possibility of making an harvesting ai is here then it would probably be possible to make ai directed scvs that are able only to mine and repair thus allowing to only have a dozen of SCVS with engineers per battlefield instead of going up to 80 engineers.

It could be, but it's evident the tech isn't there. MULEs are furthermore alluded to as not being very "imaginative" and that, outside of the game mechanics, they are still guided by other SCV pilots, possibly alluding to how they can mine from patches that are already being mined by a different SCV.

And raynor scvs do often get to build entirely new blueprints that just were uploaded mid mission and you need actual skill to start applying an instruction guide you just got to build a building.
Furthermore terrans (either mules or scvs) can just start repairing a brand newly introduced protoss mechanical unit they just met.(How? That looks complicated as heck)

Again, I'd either chalk it up to gameplay not being built to make sense of canon implications, or just handwaving it away. Remember that SCVs can also weld a unit or building that is taking heavy damage, so I am going to guess a frantic mess of an intern trying his best to staple more scrap metal onto an Immortal. As for the other thing, I'd still suggest simple IKEA blueprints and gameplay abstraction. Perhaps what isn't seen in game is some sort of foreman overseeing the process.

This is a game where a handful of Marines can take down a Battlecruiser by just shooting up, yet we do not assume all Marines are eagle eyed snipers capable of shooting things out of orbit.

[The_Snark]

Furthermore terrans (either mules or scvs) can just start repairing a brand newly introduced protoss mechanical unit they just met.(How? That looks complicated as heck)

I think at a certain point you have to handwave that away as a game abstraction, much the same way you can't think too closely about how a ground-bound SCV repairs a battlecruiser while it's still in flight, or apparently carries enough raw material inside it to construct an entire orbital command. It's not going to make sense if you examine it.

As for AI-piloted SCVs, maybe they could develop that, but I'm not sure where the incentive is? Remember, this is a society that sticks brainwashed criminals in power armor for foot soldiers. Why spend lots of time, money and effort developing an AI that can replace blue-collar construction workers when the construction workers are cheaper and do the job just fine?

[The Glyphstone]

At least within the quasi-canon of Heroes of the Storm, there is apparently an SCV Pilot's Union that lobbies against replacing SCVs with Protoss probes.

[noob]

At least within the quasi-canon of Heroes of the Storm, there is apparently an SCV Pilot's Union that lobbies against replacing SCVs with Protoss probes.

Protoss probes does not actually builds buildings so if you did that substitution it would mean that scvs would be busy building terran buildings to warp in.
However I have no clue how much lower the wage would be for "building buildings within the safety of an heavily terran controlled planet" and maybe that status is even more horrible than going on the battlefield to risk their lives (abusive bosses calling a meeting each day and then retrograding you for no good reason, being asked to work unpaid overtime and so on)
Also terrans does not have the buildings needed to make probes so it would mean they would be trading those with protosses and maybe it would cost ridiculous amounts of money and thus scvs would have to build their entire buildings from barely any scraps and everything would basically slow to a halt and be dysfunctional.

[Winthur]

At least within the quasi-canon of Heroes of the Storm, there is apparently an SCV Pilot's Union that lobbies against replacing SCVs with Protoss probes.

Slight correction - apparently it's not about replacing SCVs with Probes, but rather incorporating Protoss AI solutions to improve the "automated SCV" concept.

[The Glyphstone]

Right, my bad. Posting from memory on a phone leads to key details going missing.

[Psyren]

If the possibility of making an harvesting ai is here then it would probably be possible to make ai directed scvs that are able only to mine and repair thus allowing to only have a dozen of SCVS with engineers per battlefield instead of going up to 80 engineers.
And raynor scvs do often get to build entirely new blueprints that just were uploaded mid mission and you need actual skill to start applying an instruction guide you just got to build a building.
Furthermore terrans (either mules or scvs) can just start repairing a brand newly introduced protoss mechanical unit they just met.(How? That looks complicated as heck)

No one is saying blue collar work doesn't require skill, just that there is a difference in education requirement between following step-by-step instructions and determining or customizing something brand new on the fly. SCVs fall into the former rather than the latter.

As for their ability to repair protoss mechanical units - first of all the Terrans have military schematics on all of their units now, so I'm not sure where you're getting "they just met" from. And second of all, while the in-game sprites/models don't show this, I expect the Terran repairs to those units and buldings look ugly and jank as all hell, which explains why protoss might consider doing so themselves to be dishonorable or undesirable despite the utility of keeping a damaged unit around longer. Remember, Protoss can be really weird about honor, even fighting allies and getting units killed/all their stuff broken with no hard feelings at the end (see Safe Haven.)

I think at a certain point you have to handwave that away as a game abstraction, much the same way you can't think too closely about how a ground-bound SCV repairs a battlecruiser while it's still in flight, or apparently carries enough raw material inside it to construct an entire orbital command. It's not going to make sense if you examine it.

To be fair, it's more like the SCV creates a self-construction rig that then helps to finish building itself. The SCV has to be there the entire time, but you can see the robot arms they slap into that initial foundation also working - moving and welding stuff. Furthermore, while they're not nearly as sophisticated about it as the Protoss, Terrans do have warp technology so it's not hard to imagine that all those minerals that get delivered to the CC are being transferred to the SCVs doing construction on more of a JIT basis without a conveyor belt.

[The Glyphstone]

Because I was intensely bored, and these new 'meme' things are all the rage with kids these days:

Spoiler: Am I doing it right?

Show

[noob]

Because I was intensely bored, and these new 'meme' things are all the rage with kids these days:

Spoiler: Am I doing it right?

Show

I wonder why Warfield(the general that ignores the most the idea of "adapting" and thus would probably just do nothing as a reaction to that) is warned of the creation of changelings.
I think that if you want to spread distrust in the terran command chain you would probably warn other people of the existence of changelings because other generals might be able to actually adapt to the situation instead of going "the gorgon failed? send in the next gorgon!".
I still can not understand why I can not stop myself from loving Warfield(is it the fact he reminds me of Dugalle due to being killed by Kerrigan or is it because the flaws of Warfield reminds me of my own?).

[Lord Torath]

Ah, duGalle. I was recently going through "The Story So Far", and was surprised to discover no mention at all of the UED fleet or their attempts to create a new overmind and reclaim the sector in the name of Earth. The closest we get is that Kerrigan rebuilt her powerbase with help from various people, including Artanis and Raynor. Very little mention of anything that happened in Brood War.