Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat? Let's Play Starcraft 2: Heart of the Swarm

[Artanis]

Marines might be the optimal unit in game, but in universe they seem much more like cannon fodder against most threats. They could equip Marines in heavily armored suits like Marauders and Firebats get, but instead the cheap mass produced baseline suits get used. So im not really sure they dominate the battlefield that much? If they did and weren't seen as disposable, you'd probably see better gear for them

I think part of it is what they run into against other proper militaries. Against "normal" infantry, they might as well be Adeptus Astartes - nigh-unkillable walking tanks with enough firepower to turn a person into red paste. Against the vast technology of the Protoss, the numberless hyper-evolved swarms of the Zerg, or the sheer firepower of a Siege Tank line though...

[Tvtyrant]

I think part of it is what they run into against other proper militaries. Against "normal" infantry, they might as well be Adeptus Astartes - nigh-unkillable walking tanks with enough firepower to turn a person into red paste. Against the vast technology of the Protoss, the numberless hyper-evolved swarms of the Zerg, or the sheer firepower of a Siege Tank line though...

It also has the classic 40K problem of troops needing to be closer to comparable than the game can really show. A Marine might be able to kill a lot of zerglings before getting run over, but the game probably isn't going to have groups of 10 zerglings for 2 marines and 1 protoss. Or how it should take thousands of rounds to kill an Ultralisk, rts games don't work great with realism.

[noob]

Marines might be the optimal unit in game, but in universe they seem much more like cannon fodder against most threats. They could equip Marines in heavily armored suits like Marauders and Firebats get, but instead the cheap mass produced baseline suits get used. So im not really sure they dominate the battlefield that much? If they did and weren't seen as disposable, you'd probably see better gear for them

You do get super awesome gear for marines in nova covert obs(ex: magrail and super stim pack). I think that there is probably lots of epic gear spread among many laboratories that are taking huge times being brought to the battlefield and so that are only at some places (the issue is that going upscale in production takes time and the leaders have an hard time seeing which new tech is the most useful on the battlefield which is why the elite groups gets to pick only one of the super improvements per unit: it is for seeing which one is the most useful and should be included in the baseline gear/design later)

[Keltest]

I mean, Marines are also unironically the strongest unit in the game. They just suffer high casualties.

[The Glyphstone]

I think part of it is what they run into against other proper militaries. Against "normal" infantry, they might as well be Adeptus Astartes - nigh-unkillable walking tanks with enough firepower to turn a person into red paste. Against the vast technology of the Protoss, the numberless hyper-evolved swarms of the Zerg, or the sheer firepower of a Siege Tank line though...

I suppose it depends on the writer. In at least one book - I Mengsk, which I haven't read personally but have been told on reliable authority is badly written - a entire squad of resocialized marines and firebats is apparently slaughtered by some random civilian miners with guns and a couple of Goliath walkers (used as a cannon-fodder diversion by the titular character to set up an ambush, as it happens). I'd be curious if there was an example of Terran marines being portrayed as badasses in other fiction to balance that out.

[Keltest]

I suppose it depends on the writer. In at least one book - I Mengsk, which I haven't read personally but have been told on reliable authority is badly written - a entire squad of resocialized marines and firebats is apparently slaughtered by some random civilian miners with guns and a couple of Goliath walkers (used as a cannon-fodder diversion by the titular character to set up an ambush, as it happens). I'd be curious if there was an example of Terran marines being portrayed as badasses in other fiction to balance that out.

In Heaven's Devils, you get to follow Raynor, Tychus and their friends in the namesake squad as they act as heroes in the Guild Wars. The later parts of the books mark a pretty heavy contrast between the resoc marines and the fully trained and intelligent ones with free will in terms of effectiveness and survivability.

Liberty's Crusade is also a book retelling of the events of Rebel Yell, the terran campaign in SC1. And while it has a bizarre author self insert fanfic character, its otherwise fairly accurate, and portrays marines as reasonably competent and effective.

[The Glyphstone]

In Heaven's Devils, you get to follow Raynor, Tychus and their friends in the namesake squad as they act as heroes in the Guild Wars. The later parts of the books mark a pretty heavy contrast between the resoc marines and the fully trained and intelligent ones with free will in terms of effectiveness and survivability.

That does make sense, I was never quite clear on how well-trained resocs were, or if the Dominion could imprint training alongside the behavioral modifications.

Liberty's Crusade is also a book retelling of the events of Rebel Yell, the terran campaign in SC1. And while it has a bizarre author self insert fanfic character, its otherwise fairly accurate, and portrays marines as reasonably competent and effective.

Somehow, I can't help but feel put on the spot here...

[Keltest]

That does make sense, I was never quite clear on how well-trained resocs were, or if the Dominion could imprint training alongside the behavioral modifications.

It varies a bit, and there are several levels of resoc, depending on how badly its needed. As a rule of thumb, resocs will fight like robots. Theyll do exactly what you tell them to do, and thats about it. You ask one to guard this post, he will stand there until he is forcibly removed or given new orders, even if the rest of the position is overrun and the squad is regrouping further back.

[noob]

It varies a bit, and there are several levels of resoc, depending on how badly its needed. As a rule of thumb, resocs will fight like robots. Theyll do exactly what you tell them to do, and thats about it. You ask one to guard this post, he will stand there until he is forcibly removed or given new orders, even if the rest of the position is overrun and the squad is regrouping further back.

So 100% of the player controlled marines are basically resocs or acts as resocs (obeying unerringly orders and taking as few initiative as possible)?
Is it actually a bad thing (in terms of military efficiency) with a player controlling them behind?
In terms of actual quality of life it is considered horrible but it is written in the wiki that as time progressed resoc techs got less intrusive and that some of the less hardly resocialised could disobey in case of extreme stress(such as the overrun case).

[Artanis]

I suppose it depends on the writer. In at least one book - I Mengsk, which I haven't read personally but have been told on reliable authority is badly written - a entire squad of resocialized marines and firebats is apparently slaughtered by some random civilian miners with guns and a couple of Goliath walkers (used as a cannon-fodder diversion by the titular character to set up an ambush, as it happens). I'd be curious if there was an example of Terran marines being portrayed as badasses in other fiction to balance that out.

It's been a long time, so I don't remember exactly which book it's in (I THINK it's Heaven's Devils) where "standard" troops basically need anti-tank weapons to even think about fighting Marines.

[Keltest]

It's been a long time, so I don't remember exactly which book it's in (I THINK it's Heaven's Devils) where "standard" troops basically need anti-tank weapons to even think about fighting Marines.

CMC armor is vulnerable to needleguns, which is why their Gauss Rifles fire specific spiked anti-armor rounds.

[Artanis]

CMC armor is vulnerable to needleguns, which is why their Gauss Rifles fire specific spiked anti-armor rounds.

Sorta. Don't forget that their gauss rifles shoot very large spikes at ridiculously high velocities.

[Keltest]

Sorta. Don't forget that their gauss rifles shoot very large spikes at ridiculously high velocities.

... yes? Is that not what i said?

[The Glyphstone]

Buying black market gauss rifles is probably easier than getting black market CMC suits, too. So depending on the proliferation of anti armor weaponry, that could also account for the variable performance of Marines against regular enemies.

[Keltest]

Buying black market gauss rifles is probably easier than getting black market CMC suits, too. So depending on the proliferation of anti armor weaponry, that could also account for the variable performance of Marines against regular enemies.

Theres a "civilian" model for non-armored troopers called the AGR-14 Gauss rifle. Its what Spectres wield and it is, i think, commercially available to mercenaries and other paramilitary groups. The C-10 Impaler that marines use is only really suitable for armored wielders just due to the sheer size and recoil.

[The Glyphstone]

So far that's 2 votes for Apocalypse/1 vote for Primal Drop Pods, and a resounding chorus of "meh, who cares" for the Swarm Host evolution....

[Psyren]

Apoc is closest to her co-op ultimate so I'll go with that.

RE: Terran gear - while the gameplay abstracts literally everything under the sun being made of minerals and/or vespene gas, it's possible some of the rarer stuff in-universe requires specific raw materials that aren't always widely available or easy transport, and thus why some innovations aren't mass-produced.

[Keltest]

Apoc is closest to her co-op ultimate so I'll go with that.

RE: Terran gear - while the gameplay abstracts literally everything under the sun being made of minerals and/or vespene gas, it's possible some of the rarer stuff in-universe requires specific raw materials that aren't always widely available or easy transport, and thus why some innovations aren't mass-produced.

In general, anything that is the result of an upgrade (for example, the combat shields) is not considered standard issue and shouldnt be assumed to be present in a given media piece unless its specifically brought up.

[The Glyphstone]

New Folsom was specifically colonized because it was rich in the 'catalytic elements needed to produce neosteel', which are used to make vehicle armor I guess. So there are definitely rare elements that get abstracted into minerals.

[Keltest]

New Folsom was specifically colonized because it was rich in the 'catalytic elements needed to produce neosteel', which are used to make vehicle armor I guess. So there are definitely rare elements that get abstracted into minerals.

As a quick rule of thumb, any volcanic planet was colonized specifically to mine from. Char, Redstone, New Folsom, its literally all they have going for it.

My rock friend says this is not entirely implausible, since liquid rock moves in a way that the solid surface of the earth does not, but also i struggle to imagine that a planet would have rare resources near the surface that wouldnt be better found in asteroids and the like instead.

[Traab]

As a quick rule of thumb, any volcanic planet was colonized specifically to mine from. Char, Redstone, New Folsom, its literally all they have going for it.

My rock friend says this is not entirely implausible, since liquid rock moves in a way that the solid surface of the earth does not, but also i struggle to imagine that a planet would have rare resources near the surface that wouldnt be better found in asteroids and the like instead.

I wonder if an argument can be made that asteroids and such might be less reliable to work with as they dont have stable orbits like planets do and being smaller would yield less resources for the cost of setting up shop on them. Its also entirely possible they do both, but the resources on these volcano planets are rich enough to be worth mining as well as the standard asteroid mining efforts.

[Psyren]

I find it interesting because in Mass Effect, the hothouse and volcanic planets tend to be the richest in resources too. I don't know nearly enough about geology or astrophysics to know how realistic that is, but for two games to independently land on that paradigm at least suggests to me that someone did the research.

...either that or they both just wanted cool backdrops and excuses for us to be there.

[Traab]

I find it interesting because in Mass Effect, the hothouse and volcanic planets tend to be the richest in resources too. I don't know nearly enough about geology or astrophysics to know how realistic that is, but for two games to independently land on that paradigm at least suggests to me that someone did the research.

...either that or they both just wanted cool backdrops and excuses for us to be there.

Did a quick google search and found this

Volcanic eruptions also bring precious metals and minerals to the surface where it can be harvested, such as gold, silver, sulfur and diamonds.

So its a hop skip and a jump to finding unobtanium and other assorted imaginary metals on volcano worlds. But yeah, also not impossible its done for awesome backdrops and loud declarations about who is standing at higher elevations and relative power levels.

[Psyren]

But yeah, also not impossible its done for awesome backdrops and loud declarations about who is standing at higher elevations and relative power levels.

Here, have a chuckle

[The Glyphstone]

I also suspect it is less research and more a Stock Sci-Fi Trope.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I also suspect it is less research and more a Stock Sci-Fi Trope.

Possible logic merging the two:
* We want dramatic backdrops of exploding volcanoes
* But why would anyone live on or visit these worlds
* Minerals they can't find elsewhere!
* PR approved. Push to production.

It's become a trope because it's just plausible enough (given the common stock of knowledge) and it makes for spectacular scenes.

[Thomas Cardew]

I also suspect it is less research and more a Stock Sci-Fi Trope.

A lot of Stock Sci-Fi tropes fall back on someone actually having done the research in the past. In our own solar system, Venus is as close as we have to a volcano planet and it has a ton of metal. Planets act as large catches for metal asteroids with their giant gravity wells, concentrating it. A lot of the metals like gold and cobalt in the Earth's crust are deposits from asteroid impacts. The primordial stuff sunk into the core. If volcano planets are recently formed (on cosmological timeframes) there would be a lot more surface material than in older planets.

Additionally, asteroids are mostly metal poor. About 75% of asteroids are mostly carbon, 17% are silicate, and ~5% are metallic which mostly means nickel-iron. Materials like uranium and other heavy metals are going to be rare in asteroids and there's a whole lot less asteroid mass than there is planet mass. In real life, we have to deal with the tyranny of gravity wells and the rocket equation to get it out. In most sci-fi that's a solved/non-existent problem. So dig it out of the ground if you don't have problem taking it somewhere else later.

Also, there's a lot to be said for free heat and molten metal floating around to make your material processing easier.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: Update 17: In Which The Apocalypse Is Now

Show

March 30th. 2506:

It took almost a week for the rest of the Swarm to assemble at our staging point, during which Sarah was nowhere to be seen. The Raiders used that time as well, filtering through all the prisoners rescued from New Folsom and getting the equipment salvaged off the garrison back into service. I did manage to get a shuttle ride over to the Hyperion to see Kate in the infirmary; there was hugging, crying, apologies for being a total b**** all my life, the usual stuff. Admiral Horner offered to let me stay on the Hyperion, and have a medic remove the parasite, but I turned him down for now. That weird gut feeling that kept popping up told me my part was done in all this, but I still wanted to see it through to the end. I did raid their canteen vending machines, though, while studiously ignoring the fact that my crush on Horner had disappeared...one uncomfortable self-revelation of maturity was enough for now.


April 2nd, 2506:

People who try to express big groups by saying things like 'their numbers blotted out the very stars in the sky' shouldn't do that unless they've actually seen what it's like to be in space, surrounded by so many Zerg that you really can't see the stars anymore. Sarah must have stripped Char to the bone, along with calling in every last scattered brood from the entire sector. But it was time for another war council, the last one before we moved on Korhal. I sat near everyone else in her chamber, with Valerian and Horner on their end of the screen. Mr. Raynor was there as well, looking slightly less skeletal, but he hung in the back without speaking or looking at Sarah.



“It's time, Valerian. I'm going to attack Korhal now, and I'm going to kill Arcturus. I need to know where you stand.”

Valerian looked tired despite being back in his fancy noble costume, or something reasonably close.



“I stand for my people, Kerrigan. I've accepted that my father is beyond redemption and must be removed from power. But I must ask one thing of you – bring your swarm down outside the city, give us time to evacuate the civilians.”

Sarah hesitated. She didn't like the idea – this would be the hardest fight of her life, and he wanted to make it harder by giving the Royal Guards time to fortify. A glance at the four of us, who had somehow turned into her advisors, showed that uncertainty. Obviously, I was all in favor of minimizing civilian casualties. Zagara's clicking mandibles and shifting legs belayed her distaste for spending Zerg lives to preserve feeble Terrans. Stukov's ravaged face was impassive, reflecting his honest indifference; they were all peasants anyways, it didn't matter if they died here and now or later somewhere else. Dehaka was literally drooling at the thought of all the essence he and his pack could devour, hating the notion of permitting it to escape.

If it came down to a simple majority, as it had on Skygeirr Station, the city would burn. But while Sarah was looking at us, I was looking back past her at the screen, and saw Raynor staring back at us. He seemed almost confused, like he was searching for something and didn't know if it was there or not. When Sarah turned back to the screen he looked away again, but I knew she had made up her mind.



“I was wrong about you, Valerian. You're not like your father. I'll give you your chance, make the most of it.”

April 9, 2506:

I had hoped to see Korhal again when this was all over, but I had never planned to do so from the point of view of an invading alien armada. Sarah's forces numbered in the millions, but this was still the throneworld capital of the Dominion and its orbital defenses were second to none. Unopposed, they would shred even the Swarm's best efforts at a mass landing; Sarah needed to clear a beachhead first. Abathur dug up some old sequences for spore cannons, fusing them with the virophage to create bile launchers that could dismantle Korhal's own defenses while also firing into space against any Dominion ships contesting the landing.



The only problem was that the launchers were defenseless until they finished rooting themselves into the ground, and the Dominion troops were diligently hunting down anything that landed intact.



So Sarah went down herself, in a modified one-woman drop pod. She did a superhero landing, of course, obliterating the small outpost and clearing space for drones to set up her hive cluster.



When the next launcher pod made it through the defenses, she was there to guard it in person this time, along with a scattered handful of other Zerg.





The Dominion reaction forces that showed up this time were slaughtered. She didn't even need her minions to help out on defense.



A second launcher made it down to start digging in, and the counterattack on that one didn't fare any better. Sarah was practically a one-woman army between her banelings and broodlings, the stationary crawlers set up around the cannon were almost an afterthought.



When a pod was set to land in the middle of a Dominion base, she went out to meet it and proved to be just as vicious on offense. What I can only call some sort of psionic nuke blast wiped the entire thing clear off the face of the planet.



Sarah singlehandedly shredding armies left Abathur free to do his own experiments, back at base. He'd made new swarm hosts, that could burrow fast or something? I hadn't been consulted on this one, and I really didn't care. Swarm hosts were boring and ugly anyways.



Sarah blowing up bases with her new psi-nuke power was more fun to watch anyways. It was practically a disappointment when she finally bred up a horde of hydralisks to escort her around and guard the bile launchers with her.



Useful, maybe, since that big boom took a long time to recharge. But still not as entertaining.



The Dominion finally got it into their heads to attack bile launchers after they were implanted, but that Hydralisk horde had other things to say about the notion.



Plus, it was too late anyways, as the last of the Drakken pulse cannons covering Augustgrad and its suburbs was melted into acidic goo. Now it was time to really go on the offensive.



Augustgrad itself was pretty walled up, with four main gates controlling access to the city center. The more gates Sarah could open up, the easier it would be to flood the city from multiple directions.





Under cover of the bile launchers, Stukov and Zagara both landed assault forces to push through the secondary gates while Sarah concentrated her troops on taking Imperial Boulevard.



Dominion troops were still trying to raid the bile cannons, even though they had already failed at stopping a landing. Abathur's speedy burrowing hosts were kinda useful here, but it still seemed like a waste of time and effort. I guess Sarah just wanted to keep Abathur happy by letting him play with his toys at least once.



Meanwhile, pods full of Zerg were landing all over the place now, spitting out small clusters of troops that proceeded to lay waste to any Dominion property in sight.



Sarah, it seemed, was resolved to buying Valerian the time he needed by showboating. Her big boom attack was certainly spectacular, and she was resorting to it constantly. At times, it even seemed like she was delaying attacks on Dominion strongpoints specifically so she could open up with the nuke.





And speaking of letting Abathur play with his toys, she also bred up a squadron of Brood Lords to lead the final assault on the main gates, instead of falling back to her usual bread and butter of roaches and hydralisks.





With the final gate collapsing, the Dominion's forces were in full retreat. Or full withdrawal, at least – I couldn't shake the feeling that it felt way too orderly and calm for what should have been a panic-riddled out. Something told me the soon-to-be ex-Emperor still had more tricks up his sleeve...

And it's time to VOTE. Let's pick an Ultralisk Evolution!

1) Torrasque Strain: Can resurrect from death at full health every 60 seconds.
2) Noxious Strain: Gains a light-damage passive AoE, and can deal burst AoE on a cooldown:

[Traab]

Nicely written man. As for the choice, I know everyone says they are meant to be meat shields so them self reviving is probably the best, but I honestly enjoy turning them into aoe devastators with monarch blades and poison aoe damage. Its just FUN to use them as meat shields that tear apart everything in their path. Not that I honestly use them often anyways.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Spoiler: Update 17: In Which The Apocalypse Is Now

Show

She did a superhero landing, of course

This is a fun mental image.