Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spikes

[LaZodiac]

The Tezzert story seems to suggest that he thinks at least Bant will be able to stand against the Phyrexians to a meaningful degree. I do think it's sort of lazy and dumb if the secret to beating Phyrexians is just "have a bunch of angels around" though.

It was established in the New Capenna storyline that angelic powers do well to fight off the oil. It won't be the super secret kill all of them instantly button, but it will certainly help.

[Emmerlaus]

Speaking of angelic powers helping fight the corruption, I'm excited for White's Sun Twilight in my angel deck. Its really the new best and improved Martial Coup AND the phyrixian mites token will be awesome to change into angels, thanks to Divine Visitation

[Androgeus]

It was established in the New Capenna storyline that angelic powers do well to fight off the oil. It won't be the super secret kill all of them instantly button, but it will certainly help.

Is it any angels or just Capennan Angels due to being able to be turned in to halo? It didn’t seem to go all that well for Mirodin’s angels (although I guess being part metal likely put them on the back foot)

Edit: wait are Capenna’s angel tokens 3/3’s instead of the usual 4/4 because the demons had been siphoning halo from them?

[LaZodiac]

Is it any angels or just Capennan Angels due to being able to be turned in to halo? It didn’t seem to go all that well for Mirodin’s angels (although I guess being part metal likely put them on the back foot)

Edit: wait are Capenna’s angel tokens 3/3’s instead of the usual 4/4 because the demon’s had been siphoning halo from them?

The story as presented is that the holy magics of angels in general are good at fighting back against the oil, it just took them awhile to work out how to concentrate that divine power into a juicebox for people to drink. Mirran angels being part machine made it easier to be subverted, as well.

Yeah I could see that being the case.

[Fable Wright]

So the interesting way to do it would be the nature of Bant's Angels to anoint a champion. Sending a small wave of dudes hopped up on Phyrexian-resisting Angel power as a shock force, then recycling that blessing to the next wave both greatly limits the potential spread of the oil AND means that your main force, the Angel battery, isn't at risk of a Phyrexian superweapon coming out of nowhere and taking them out. An integration of Bant's once-signature Exalted mechanic, a few details from New Capenna, and the imagery of wave after wave of hopeless knights charging off against the darkness could lead to a really cool image and story beat of the one force who could beat back Phyrexia.

I mean, they're probably going to have the resolution be grinding up Bant's angels into magic cocaine that wins the war to give Elspeth another thing to angst about, I guess, but the other thing makes for a cool 'what could have been'.

[LaZodiac]

So the interesting way to do it would be the nature of Bant's Angels to anoint a champion. Sending a small wave of dudes hopped up on Phyrexian-resisting Angel power as a shock force, then recycling that blessing to the next wave both greatly limits the potential spread of the oil AND means that your main force, the Angel battery, isn't at risk of a Phyrexian superweapon coming out of nowhere and taking them out. An integration of Bant's once-signature Exalted mechanic, a few details from New Capenna, and the imagery of wave after wave of hopeless knights charging off against the darkness could lead to a really cool image and story beat of the one force who could beat back Phyrexia.

I mean, they're probably going to have the resolution be grinding up Bant's angels into magic cocaine that wins the war to give Elspeth another thing to angst about, I guess, but the other thing makes for a cool 'what could have been'.

The liquifying angels is a thing the demons did after the fact. Bant's angels just hyper-exalting one dude to 1v1 the Phyrexian's one divinely chosen knight, Dark Souls style, is EXACTLY how this is going to play out on Bant. Rafiq is going to kill SO many machine-demons and it is going to be wild.

[enderlord99]

I was playing against an Azorius deck. I had a Lich's Mastery on the battlefield and cast Approach of the Second Sun. My opponent tried to counter it, so I tutored up a Pact of Negation with my Wishclaw Talisman, and countered their counter. Approach gains 7 life and puts itself 7th; Lich's draws 7 cards, the last of which is Approach. My opponent can see that I have an Approach in hand, knows I already cast one earlier, and (in case you forgot) is playing an Azorius deck. On their turn, they use the Talisman I had to give them to tutor up... something. Remember: they are playing an Azorius deck, know that I have a noncreature spell in hand that will win me the game if it resolves, know that I might potentially have a counterspell myself, and just tutored something.

Since I won next turn in exactly the implied fashion, the only conclusions I can think of are that either my opponent was an idiot, or they were playing an Azorius control deck that somehow didn't have Dovin's Veto in it.

[Emmerlaus]

By the way, what's your opinion for infect/toxic strategy in Commander? Does the player playing it is the archnemesis if he plays infect or not at yor table? Are you dreading the newest set impact on the game when it comes to getting 10 poison tokens?

[LaZodiac]

By the way, what's your opinion for infect/toxic strategy in Commander? Does the player playing it is the archnemesis if he plays infect or not at yor table? Are you dreading the newest set impact on the game when it comes to getting 10 poison tokens?

The solution to dealing with infect and toxic is to kill them. Like, genuinely, the strategy is not strong enough in Commander to kill you unless you're way too turtly. Stab them! They'll die!

[Amidus Drexel]

By the way, what's your opinion for infect/toxic strategy in Commander? Does the player playing it is the archnemesis if he plays infect or not at yor table? Are you dreading the newest set impact on the game when it comes to getting 10 poison tokens?

The solution to dealing with infect and toxic is to kill them. Like, genuinely, the strategy is not strong enough in Commander to kill you unless you're way too turtly. Stab them! They'll die!

Agreeing with Zodi here. Aggro is not a particularly strong archetype in commander in general, and if you're trying to get a poison kill it's pretty likely that none of the other players are going to even have the tools in their deck to contribute to your gameplan (regardless of whether they wanted to). At least a normal aggro deck is assuming that somebody else declares attacks and you don't actually have to hit your opponents for 120 - with infect, it's extremely likely you'll have to deal every single one of those 30 poison counters yourself.

Beating infect in EDH is pretty much the same as beating infect in the 1v1 formats (where infect is also not terribly strong of a strategy right now) - contest the board (with removal or with your own creatures), and fight over their card draw and pump spells on the stack when applicable. In 1v1 formats, infect shines against non-interactive combo decks that are slower than it. Be interactive, and you will crush them a significant portion of the time.

[Lord Raziere]

The liquifying angels is a thing the demons did after the fact. Bant's angels just hyper-exalting one dude to 1v1 the Phyrexian's one divinely chosen knight, Dark Souls style, is EXACTLY how this is going to play out on Bant. Rafiq is going to kill SO many machine-demons and it is going to be wild.

That won't end well.

Maybe its just the fact that I've read Invasion series and most of Otaria, as well as having read Chandra's book and knows roughly what happens on Innistrad, but.....White mana tends to fail in MtG lore a lot of the time. Like White Mana just has a poor track record in general lorewise, especially when its trying to do good so that some black mana villain can get the upper hand for suspense only for some imperfect hero of the other three colors to step up to the plate to deal with the problem. Maybe things have changed enough and maybe this is just a mistaken impression of mine, but....White mana tends to fail. its position of establishing order a lot tends to make a prime worf/punching bag to signal the status quo being destroyed. and thats when they're not the villain! I certainly can't recall any particular instance in MtG where White mana good guys get a clean victory.

[LaZodiac]

That won't end well.

Maybe its just the fact that I've read Invasion series and most of Otaria, as well as having read Chandra's book and knows roughly what happens on Innistrad, but.....White mana tends to fail in MtG lore a lot of the time. Like White Mana just has a poor track record in general lorewise, especially when its trying to do good so that some black mana villain can get the upper hand for suspense only for some imperfect hero of the other three colors to step up to the plate to deal with the problem. Maybe things have changed enough and maybe this is just a mistaken impression of mine, but....White mana tends to fail. its position of establishing order a lot tends to make a prime worf/punching bag to signal the status quo being destroyed. and thats when they're not the villain! I certainly can't recall any particular instance in MtG where White mana good guys get a clean victory.

Well if it helps any, Elesh Norn is also white mana, and the main character of this arc is effectively Elspeth, so it'll cancel each other out.

[Mystic Muse]

By the way, what's your opinion for infect/toxic strategy in Commander? Does the player playing it is the archnemesis if he plays infect or not at yor table? Are you dreading the newest set impact on the game when it comes to getting 10 poison tokens?

Given I'm going to have 3 different poison decks when ONE cones out, no I'm not dreading it.

Yes, you become the archenemy, especially with how much a thing proliferate is.

Whether it's good is another matter, and I'm not convinced the answer is 'yes.'

[Techwarrior]

By the way, what's your opinion for infect/toxic strategy in Commander? Does the player playing it is the archnemesis if he plays infect or not at yor table? Are you dreading the newest set impact on the game when it comes to getting 10 poison tokens?

Personally, I like what infect does as a combat strategy in the format. What I don't like is the Atraxa proliferate decks that just hit everyone for 1 Poison and then plan to kill you with proliferate as that is very difficult to interact with.

I tend towards pretty black/white views when it comes to cardboard as long as everyone is following with the Rule 0 conversation we had at the beginning of the table. I play everything from low power to cEDH though depending on what the table is interested and capable of bringing.

To answer the archenemy question: if I can only meaningfully interact with your strategy via player removal, I'm going to have to employ that. Infect is a threat. When it is on board, I don't skew my decision making to "everything Infect guy has must go" unless you've proven in game that's how I have to interact with your deck. That said, Infect is a threat, and that means I have to deal with that with whatever I have available to me at the time.

[enderlord99]

Do you think it would be possible to have a zombie planeswalker keep their spark, through a combination of lazotep and the reality chip?

[LaZodiac]

Do you think it would be possible to have a zombie planeswalker keep their spark, through a combination of lazotep and the reality chip?

I mean you wouldn't even really need the lazotep if you had the reality chip, but yeah. It's basically comparable to compleation- you'd need to use the chip to lock their soul inside their animate corpse, maybe within a cartouche?

[enderlord99]

I mean you wouldn't even really need the lazotep if you had the reality chip, but yeah. It's basically comparable to compleation- you'd need to use the chip to lock their soul inside their animate corpse, maybe within a cartouche?

My reasoning for the addition of lazotep was that their flesh would still be organic matter, whereas those who are compleated (including planeswalkers) are pure metal. Since the hypothetical zombie-walker's spark, while still inside them, isn't connected in the exact same way it was in life (though it may be similar) their flesh might rot away when they planeswalk; lazotep is insurance against that.

[LaZodiac]

My reasoning for the addition of lazotep was that their flesh would still be organic matter, whereas those who are compleated (including planeswalkers) are pure metal. Since the hypothetical zombie-walker's spark, while still inside them, isn't connected in the exact same way it was in life (though it may be similar) their flesh might rot away when they planeswalk; lazotep is insurance against that.

An interesting wrinkle, but naw. The compleated walkers got meat in them still. Nothing is perfectly machine in New Phyrexia. A theoretical zombie planeswalker still has their spark protecting their meats, even if they've gone sour.

[enderlord99]

Nothing is perfectly machine in New Phyrexia.

...I should have realized that, considering they claim that everything is.

[LaZodiac]

...I should have realized that, considering they claim that everything is.

Well, yeah. One of the fun inherent contradictions of Phyrexia is that they do not fully practice what they preach. Sheoldred goes out of her way to select a perfect face every morning, and Elesh Norn still has her glistening red tendons and muscle-tissues out on display. No one is fully robot.

[enderlord99]

Spoiler: No context

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[JNAProductions]

Okay, I don't think this was discussed yet.

With Ichormoon Gauntlet, I think you can take infinite turns with just four Planeswalkers, provided they have Loyalty values of at least 10, 7, 4, and 1.

Spoiler: Expanded Details

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Starting at 10, 7, 4, and 1.

Three Proliferates gets you to 13, 10, 7, and 4.
Extra turn drops you to 1 on the 13 Walker.

Next turn, you start with 10, 7, 4, and 1. Repeat!

[enderlord99]

Four planeswalkers, one with at least 10 loyalty, isn't exactly the sort of thing you say "just" about.

[JNAProductions]

Four planeswalkers, one with at least 10 loyalty, isn't exactly the sort of thing you say "just" about.

Fair! But I play kinda casually, so it might make a fun win-condition for a Commander deck.

[Techwarrior]

Ichormoon is good so that your WotS planeswalkers that don't have upticks do something in your walker deck. I do tend to agree though that if you have a walker on 10 with a 5 card combo you should be able to win the game pretty handily.

[enderlord99]

I was playing against an Azorius deck. I had a Lich's Mastery on the battlefield and cast Approach of the Second Sun. My opponent tried to counter it, so I tutored up a Pact of Negation with my Wishclaw Talisman, and countered their counter. Approach gains 7 life and puts itself 7th; Lich's draws 7 cards, the last of which is Approach. My opponent can see that I have an Approach in hand, knows I already cast one earlier, and (in case you forgot) is playing an Azorius deck. On their turn, they use the Talisman I had to give them to tutor up... something. Remember: they are playing an Azorius deck, know that I have a noncreature spell in hand that will win me the game if it resolves, know that I might potentially have a counterspell myself, and just tutored something.

Since I won next turn in exactly the implied fashion, the only conclusions I can think of are that either my opponent was an idiot, or they were playing an Azorius control deck that somehow didn't have Dovin's Veto in it.

Spore, Techwarrior, and Personification, what do you three think of my most-specific gameplay story yet? Others can answer too, I just know that most of those answers will be "you were both playing control so I don't care"

[Androgeus]

With Ichormoon Gauntlet, I think you can take infinite turns with just four Planeswalkers, provided they have Loyalty values of at least 10, 7, 4, and 1.

My stupid way to combo this is with Tekuthal (the double proliferate guy) and a Jace, Cunning Castaway that’s already made it’s two copies.

[enderlord99]

When did evil ceramic robo-mommy become obsessed with teeth, anyway?

[LaZodiac]

When did evil ceramic robo-mommy become obsessed with teeth, anyway?

Teeth are a natural machine-part of humanity- not quite flesh but not quite not flesh. Also I think she's just learning to expand her creativity.

[Androgeus]

When did evil ceramic robo-mommy become obsessed with teeth, anyway?

When they decided that the art had to not be gory, but still wanted it to be unsettling.