Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spikes

[Tvtyrant]

So, this is my first time posting to this thread... is it kosher to request deckbuilding help here? I've got a stompy dinosaur deck in Arena (for... historic brawl, I think is the format..? Not great with knowing which is what) that seems to be standing the test of time, but I think there's room for improvement. See it here if such things are allowed.

With all decks the question is "am I the control or the aggressor?" If you are the aggressor you need to have threats that kill the opponent more rapidly then they outvalue you, and if you are control you want to delay dying until you outvalue the opponent.

This deck is too slow to be the aggressor except against blue control decks, and doesn't slow down aggressive decks enough to get to the bombs. Stompy tends to curve out at three drops for this reason with creatures like Leatherback Baloth which are really big for that cheap.

So the question is how do you slow them down or speed yourself up? I don't know the format so I can't tell you exactly what to do, but looking at Tron in Pauper vs. Modern vs. Post in Legacy would help.

Pauper tron uses Moment's Peace which is a fog with flashback. That grants two turns against aggro, by which time they probably have Tron and go over the opponent.

Modern Tron has board wipes and is blindingly fast, turn 3 tron is fairly normal so they get 7 drops turn 3. Then they gum up the board with giant lifelinkers, or Karn starts killing things, etc.

Legacy Post uses lands which act as fogs, Maze of Ith and Glacial Chasm, to keep then alive until they cast Eldrazi and win.

I would look at reducing your curve regardless of approach, and then choosing whether to turn some ramp into aggressive creatures or control effects.

[TeChameleon]

Unless I messed up the search string, Arbor Elf doesn't exist in Arena. Closest equivalent is Sculptor of Winter (one green and one colourless) or Jaspera Sentinel (tap both this card and another creature), which I don't... think offer enough benefit to be worth swapping out?

I made this deck in 2019, then kinda fell outta playing MtG:A because no-one I knew played and games against strangers were kind of eh.

Replaced Rabid Bite with Savage Stomp- RB was mostly in there because it was what I had at the time, and I haven't really updated this deck since, well, 2019. Well, that and the Karl Kopinski art made me laugh. Like the Paradise Druid suggestion as well- did them rather than Drover of the Mighty since I already had 3/4 of the Druids, so didn't need to burn as many wildcards to get 'em.

I've actually gotten consistently decent results with Blanchwood Armor, not sure why it's considered bad.

Er... consider going Gruul? I'm not sure what that means. Part of the reason I asked for help here is because I don't know much about deck building, especially the jargon, and Playgrounders are usually patient enough to explain things to the clueless. That being said, while the Regisaur Alpha looks like it has some decent abilities, it... hrm. Not sure how to put this; it doesn't really fit the feel of the deck (which is mostly 'summon big stompy dinosaur, make bigger and stompier').

[Amechra]

Gruul means that the deck runs Green cards and Red cards — all of the two- and three-color combinations have their own nicknames.

The thing about Regisaur Alpha is that it makes Ghalta cost 7 less, and it makes it so that you can attack with Ghalta or Carnage Tyrant the turn you play them, which is effectively like playing them a turn early.

[Giggling Ghast]

Just to add to what Amechra said, Gruul is the Red/Green guild of Ravnica. Hence the nickname.

I played an odd opponent on Arena tonight. His entire deck seemed to be Red burn spells! He only had one creature that brought a burn spell back from the graveyard.

[TeChameleon]

Ah, thank you.

... *sigh*

Wellp, guess I need to work on my deckbuilding skills. Appreciate the help, not sure where to go from here- I simply don't know enough to really even parse all the advice properly, and I'm not sure I want to invest that heavily in figuring out a game

Dunno, will leave it lie for now I think. Thanks again.

[Amechra]

I played an odd opponent on Arena tonight. His entire deck seemed to be Red burn spells! He only had one creature that brought a burn spell back from the graveyard.

That's what we call "burn", my friend.

In all seriousness, that's what burn looked like back before they started pushing creatures and stopped printing good burn spells.

[Techwarrior]

Yea, even Modern Burn lists only run about 12-13 creatures main with a few in the sideboard, and they have access to the best aggressive creatures ever. Red aggro decks in standard formats are generally creature heavy because there isn't enough burn that's worth playing to make a 60 card deck. In formats where that is the case, blanking removal by playing more burn is excellent for the strategy. You get to ignore so much of your opponent's interaction when every spell you cast is a variant of deal 3-4 damage.

In Modern a creature generally needs to be worth at least 4 damage before you feel good about it, although 2 and a removal spell is usually acceptable. That's why turn 1 Goblin Guide is so powerful for that deck. You usually can get 4 damage and a removal there. I speak mostly about modern variants of Burn because that's the format I have the most experience with the archetype.

[Giggling Ghast]

That's what we call "burn", my friend.

In all seriousness, that's what burn looked like back before they started pushing creatures and stopped printing good burn spells.

I’ve heard of burn decks, but they usually have at least some low-cost Haste monsters, don’t they? They just ran out of cards that could hit me.

I guess I should stress again that I’m playing Arena, and you tend to see the same type of decks over and over again. This was the first burn deck I’ve seen on there, and it was kind of a weird burn deck.

[Binks]

Just to add to what Amechra said, Gruul is the Red/Green guild of Ravnica. Hence the nickname.

I played an odd opponent on Arena tonight. His entire deck seemed to be Red burn spells! He only had one creature that brought a burn spell back from the graveyard.

If not for the fact I wasn't playing Arena today, I'd say that might have been me lol :P. I have an almost all instants/sorceries burn deck I run whenever I want to grind a "cast X red spells" daily. You'd be surprised how many decks don't deal with creature light strategies well on Arena, even if burn is garbage slow nowadays. And, even when it doesn't work, the games are at usually at least fast and you can easily get 5-10 red spells cast per game most times.

[Techwarrior]

I’ve heard of burn decks, but they usually have at least some low-cost Haste monsters, don’t they? They just ran out of cards that could hit me.

I guess I should stress again that I’m playing Arena, and you tend to see the same type of decks over and over again. This was the first burn deck I’ve seen on there, and it was kind of a weird burn deck.

There are times where you want to be on a creature-less build in burn. If you expect a ton of the relevant interaction your opponent to bring to be removal then cutting creatures can be the right play. It's also possible your opponent was on a very light creature build and just never drew a creature.

Going back to Modern, if I was playing against UWx control for example and I knew their 75 was a build that was counterspell light and was loaded with removal then I could see trying to get as many of my creatures sided out as possible. 12 creatures is a lot to board out though, and generally isn't worth the trouble in practice, but boarding out slower or particularly low impact creatures is generally the right call in such matchups. As an example, Grim Lavamancer is almost never going to be in my 60 after board against any UW deck since it doesn't do anything the turn it comes down.

[Spore]

[A lot of modern hubbub]

This is Arena we are talking. Historic is the format (going back to Kaladesh at the earliest). That being said Blue/White Tron, Red Burn and some sacrifice decks are kinda meta defining, so you need to survive a bit of damage, try to be able to destroy enchantment or creatures and try to not have creatures that die to fast removal (Fatal Push, so 1 CMC is LLanowar Elves, otherwise look for CMC 3 and above).

[Tvtyrant]

This is Arena we are talking. Historic is the format (going back to Kaladesh at the earliest). That being said Blue/White Tron, Red Burn and some sacrifice decks are kinda meta defining, so you need to survive a bit of damage, try to be able to destroy enchantment or creatures and try to not have creatures that die to fast removal (Fatal Push, so 1 CMC is LLanowar Elves, otherwise look for CMC 3 and above).

That's not modern hubub, that's every format. Old School, Premodern, Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Pauper, Standard. If you made a new format someone would play red deck wins and it would still be true.

MTG is not a game where you can sit there and do nothing for 5 turns and then slam a giant fatty. For instance, I looked through the historic green creatures and you can make a really fast stompy deck that kills turn 3 sometimes and turn 4 usually. You have to do something before turn 3 or you will just die a good portion of the time.


I would probably go something like this:

4 Turntimber Symbiosis
4 Khalni Ambush
4 Tangled Florahedron
4 Lair of the Hydra
18 forest
3 Druid Class
4 Arboreal Grazer
4 Llanowar Tribe
4 Thrashing Brontodon

For the base package, season with stuff like vivien, verdant command, etc. to taste. Turntimber is ramp both ways, lets you use ghalta a lot easier. Ambush is both lands and removal, tangled is ramp if you cast it early or lands later.

[Personification]

That's not modern hubub, that's every format. Old School, Premodern, Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Pauper, Standard. If you made a new format someone would play red deck wins and it would still be true.

MTG is not a game where you can sit there and do nothing for 5 turns and then slam a giant fatty. For instance, I looked through the historic green creatures and you can make a really fast stompy deck that kills turn 3 sometimes and turn 4 usually. You have to do something before turn 3 or you will just die a good portion of the time.


I would probably go something like this:

4 Turntimber Symbiosis
4 Khalni Ambush
4 Tangled Florahedron
4 Lair of the Hydra
18 forest
3 Druid Class
4 Arboreal Grazer
4 Llanowar Tribe
4 Thrashing Brontodon

For the base package, season with stuff like vivien, verdant command, etc. to taste. Turntimber is ramp both ways, lets you use ghalta a lot easier. Ambush is both lands and removal, tangled is ramp if you cast it early or lands later.

That's 34 lands, 4 llanowar's, and no real high end. Is the win on ulting Druid Class?

On an unrelated note, who'd ready for Blade Odric to join the reluctant vampire club with Crovax, Arvad, AU-Mirri, and, to a lesser extent, Yahenni?

[noob]

That's 34 lands, 4 llanowar's, and no real high end. Is the win on ulting Druid Class?

On an unrelated note, who'd ready for Blade Odric to join the reluctant vampire club with Crovax, Arvad, AU-Mirri, and, to a lesser extent, Yahenni?

They are saying that you should complete with other cards and mentions some.
So no 34 lands strategies.

[enderlord99]

I just had a game where I got a land with no types besides "land" and with the following abilities:

• Hexproof
• Indestructable
• "You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game"

It took more than an additional hour after that for my opponent to concede. I'm not complaining; I'm just confused as to what they expected to happen.

[noob]

I just had a game where I got a land with no types besides "land" and with the following abilities:

• Hexproof
• Indestructable
• "You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game"

It took more than an additional hour after that for my opponent to concede. I'm not complaining; I'm just confused as to what they expected to happen.

They did not have a wish to pull a Bane of Bala Ged to progressively make you exile permanent cards until you had to exile that land?
(Seriously I love this card even if the mana cost makes it hard to fit in non ramp decks and the low endurance makes it fail hard against any deck with correct creatures: merely a 1 card advantage trade for 7 mana)

[enderlord99]

They did not have a wish to pull a Bane of Bala Ged to progressively make you exile permanent cards until you had to exile that land?
(Seriously I love this card even if the mana cost makes it hard to fit in non ramp decks and the low endurance makes it fail hard against any deck with correct creatures: merely a 1 card advantage trade for 7 mana)

Last time I checked, that card isn't in Arena.

[Jurai]

I just had a game where I got a land with no types besides "land" and with the following abilities:

• Hexproof
• Indestructable
• "You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game"

It took more than an additional hour after that for my opponent to concede. I'm not complaining; I'm just confused as to what they expected to happen.

Ooh~! FaceBook Combo!

[Spore]

I just had a game where I got a land with no types besides "land" and with the following abilities:

• Hexproof
• Indestructable
• "You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game"

It took more than an additional hour after that for my opponent to concede. I'm not complaining; I'm just confused as to what they expected to happen.

Congrats, you figured out a 3 month old combo. For uninitiated, it is Book of Exalted Deeds on a Faceless Haven, and many competitive decks run Field of Ruin specifically for that. Wouldn't really help in your case, but you needed something to set up the indestructible and hexproof, right?

[Emmerlaus]

Congrats, you figured out a 3 month old combo. For uninitiated, it is Book of Exalted Deeds on a Faceless Haven, and many competitive decks run Field of Ruin specifically for that. Wouldn't really help in your case, but you needed something to set up the indestructible and hexproof, right?

Wow I didn't even know that combo!

Such a stupid way to win if you ask me however.

[enderlord99]

Congrats, you figured out a 3 month old combo. For uninitiated, it is Book of Exalted Deeds on a Faceless Haven, and many competitive decks run Field of Ruin specifically for that. Wouldn't really help in your case, but you needed something to set up the indestructible and hexproof, right?

Indestructible from ult-ing WAR Nissa. Hexproof from using Lotus Field (assisted by seperate land-animation plus Maskwood Nexus) instead of Faceless Haven.

[Spore]

Indestructible from ult-ing WAR Nissa. Hexproof from using Lotus Field (assisted by seperate land-animation plus Maskwood Nexus) instead of Faceless Haven.

So it is actually just "winning harder" since ulting Nissa should win you the game anyhow.

[enderlord99]

So it is actually just "winning harder" since ulting Nissa should win you the game anyhow.

Pretty much

[Dienekes]

Wow I didn't even know that combo!

Such a stupid way to win if you ask me however.

It is. It's probably a net benefit to have stuff like that in the game, enderlord99 seems proof of that. A good portion of his stories involve creating such board states where there is no way for the opponent to meaningfully interact with the game. So there is definitely an audience for that style of gameplay.

I personally, just despise that stuff. Mostly because the process to get to that point more than the win condition themselves, though. I've never yet played against a deck that revolves around janky win conditions that were actually interesting to play against.

[noob]

It is. It's probably a net benefit to have stuff like that in the game, enderlord99 seems proof of that. A good portion of his stories involve creating such board states where there is no way for the opponent to meaningfully interact with the game. So there is definitely an audience for that style of gameplay.

I personally, just despise that stuff. Mostly because the process to get to that point more than the win condition themselves, though. I've never yet played against a deck that revolves around janky win conditions that were actually interesting to play against.

I think the most interesting janky win condition is equivalents of "empty your deck then win due to cards that makes you win when the deck is empty" but it is just combo decks and once the combo is online the game is over in the turn generally.

[enderlord99]

I've seen people complaining about games going for "fifteen or even twenty minutes" and thought "why are you playing the most complicated TTG in the world (discounting some RPGs) if you want it to be over quickly?"

I consider half an hour to be "a bit short, but acceptable and enjoyable" yet Aggro players find even half that "intolerably long"

My favorite games are ones with several hours worth of "both players are accomplishing something; neither player is accomplishing enough"

I know that I'm very atypical in what I like about this game. I still like it.

[Spore]

Thing is, MTG has so many cool ways to win a game, including infinite combos. Arena's client however is HORRIBLE for many many things. I love Arena, because I learned to play in this system, but it is obviously inferior to actual paper when it comes to actual huge combos where a paper player just says: "I repeat this loop for 1000 times and deal 2000 damage instead of having to manually do each loop.

These are not my original thoughts, but Tolarion Community College's: https://youtu.be/b1FL1zZBZJc?t=470 (emphasis on my timestamp)

[Giggling Ghast]

I’ve done the whole multi-hour stalemate in the past. It’s pretty goddamn boring. If it’s a non-competitive game, I’d rather just concede.

[enderlord99]

I’ve done the whole multi-hour stalemate in the past. It’s pretty goddamn boring. If it’s a non-competitive game, I’d rather just concede.

It's only a "stalemate" if (almost) nothing is happening.

I'm referring to when we are doing cool stuff, but also surviving said cool stuff and recovering to do cooler stuff.

[Giggling Ghast]

I suppose it’s how you define “cool stuff.”