Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spikes

[Dienekes]

I suppose it’s how you define “cool stuff.”

Are there counter spells flying and board wipes happening? Is the board state brought to a point where no permanent damage can happen? Is the entire tactic just to delay until your weird thing goes off?

Then no cool stuff occurred.

[enderlord99]

I suppose it’s how you define “cool stuff.”

Well, yes, if you define "cool stuff" as "only things that end the game immediately" then it makes sense that you'd want short games, because you can't have more than one cool event occur per game. That is, however, a very sad definition IMO. If you can't enjoy a game while it's happening, only when it's over, then you should probably find different game.

Are there counter spells flying and board wipes happening? Is the board state brought to a point where no permanent damage can happen? Is the entire tactic just to delay until your weird thing goes off?

Then no cool stuff occurred.

Countering one spell doesn't make the other spells stop being cool. Board-wipes are themselves cool, but only if both players have emblems or similar in order to build back up quickly. The only ways to make permanent damage "happen" are Stigma Lasher and anything that uses Poison counters, and I have as much trouble enjoying games with those as you seem to without them. No, there is a lot more to my tactics.

Maybe from your perspective.

[Giggling Ghast]

Are there counter spells flying and board wipes happening? Is the board state brought to a point where no permanent damage can happen? Is the entire tactic just to delay until your weird thing goes off?

Sounds like the height of boredom to me.

I prefer games that are kind of like dancing on the razor’s edge, where a single misstep or a lucky draw decides the whole match. The best matches end with both players with nearly all their life points gone and there’s just one round to decide it all.

[enderlord99]

The best matches end with both players with nearly all their life points gone.

I mean, yeah. They should also get that way a few times prior to the end, with people almost losing, bouncing back, almost winning, and so on until someone loses or wins for real.

[Androgeus]

I consider half an hour to be "a bit short, but acceptable and enjoyable" yet Aggro players find even half that "intolerably long”

The aggro player can play several games in that half hour so they play nearly as much magic (basically the same amount on Arena as pregame set up takes seconds)

[enderlord99]

The aggro player can play several games in that half hour so they play nearly as much magic (basically the same amount on Arena as pregame set up takes seconds)

I understand that a dozen five-minute games is the same total amount of Magic as a single hour-long game. I just happen to prefer the latter.

[noob]

I understand that a dozen five-minute games is the same total amount of Magic as a single hour-long game. I just happen to prefer the latter.

Some people love the mulligan decision part of the game.
It is in fact a quite complicated problem for some decks and depends on the matchup.

[Giggling Ghast]

I just had a game where I got a land with no types besides "land" and with the following abilities:

• Hexproof
• Indestructable
• "You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game"

It took more than an additional hour after that for my opponent to concede. I'm not complaining; I'm just confused as to what they expected to happen.

Having now been in a similar situation, I can offer some insight: they were deliberately wasting time, either in an effort to make you concede or out of spite.

I played an opponent today in Standard whose only strategy was to hit me for one point of damage each turn with a Thermo-Alchemist and remove any creatures I put out. I literally could do nothing except put out land. It was as boring as it sounds.

I’m willing to concede quickly when the game is unwinnable, but this irked me. So I stretched out my turns as long as possible and I left him waiting when to resolve effects. I wasted his time and mine.

Was it childish? Immature? Poor sportsmanship?A dink move? Oh, definitely. I’ll cop to all that. But if you limit your opponent’s options to running out the clock, don’t be surprised if they do just that.

[Spore]

I understand that a dozen five-minute games is the same total amount of Magic as a single hour-long game. I just happen to prefer the latter.

My favorite game is "aggro vs. control" when I am aggro though. Don't overextend into wipes, but build up enough pressure so the enemy has to do SOMETHING. Sadly this is the perfect balance, which is achieved seldomly. Usually it is either aggro dying out quickly, or dominating.

That is why I prefer to build midrange, with my favorite setup being vs control.

[Techwarrior]

My favorite game is "aggro vs. control" when I am aggro though. Don't overextend into wipes, but build up enough pressure so the enemy has to do SOMETHING. Sadly this is the perfect balance, which is achieved seldomly. Usually it is either aggro dying out quickly, or dominating.

That is why I prefer to build midrange, with my favorite setup being vs control.

Honestly, this sounds like you prefer games that have high amounts of interaction, skill expression, and decision making. That sort of thing is how I got into Legacy personally. Once you get into the format a bit, and accept that sometimes you'll just die, Force of Will decks basically force that game type no matter what your end-game is.

I'm personally a fan of Standstill UW, but URx Delver decks as well as Taxes have been in the format for as long as it's been a format. The cost to enter is crippling, but MtGO and various third party software make playing the format online pretty easy.

[enderlord99]

Having now been in a similar situation, I can offer some insight: they were deliberately wasting time, either in an effort to make you concede or out of spite.

If they were deliberately wasting time, why would they do it by "waiting an hour to concede" rather than "never conceding, at all"

[Dienekes]

If they were deliberately wasting time, why would they do it by "waiting an hour to concede" rather than "never conceding, at all"

Something came up.

[Personification]

Having now been in a similar situation, I can offer some insight: they were deliberately wasting time, either in an effort to make you concede or out of spite.

I played an opponent today in Standard whose only strategy was to hit me for one point of damage each turn with a Thermo-Alchemist and remove any creatures I put out. I literally could do nothing except put out land. It was as boring as it sounds.

I’m willing to concede quickly when the game is in winnable, but this irked me. So I stretched out my turns as long as possible and I left him waiting when to resolve effects. I wasted his time and mine.

Was it childish? Immature? Poor sportsmanship?A dink move? Oh, definitely. I’ll cop to all that. But if you limit your opponent’s options to running out the clock, don’t be surprised if they do just that.

They got you, as the kids say, ropin' mad!

[Giggling Ghast]

Something came up.

Or they finally got bored, saw that you weren’t going to give up and threw in the towel.

[gooddragon1]

Does this deck work for casual edh? Not competitive mind you. Also, I'm not actually buying it in paper, so price tag wasn't a consideration as much.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4437587#paper

General rules of casual:
Not too many board wipes
No infinite combos
No infinite turns
No hard locks
No super fast mana
Probably others I can't remember

[Giggling Ghast]

To be clear, I never commented because I'm not big on Blue control decks and don't feel my advice is worth much.

That said, my one criticism is that I'm not really seeing what the win condition is here? Lots of bouncing creatures, but not a lot of weight to bring against your opponents. You might end up sweating bullets if the other player brings out anything beefy with Hexproof.

[Tvtyrant]

To be clear, I never commented because I'm not big on Blue control decks and don't feel my advice is worth much.

That said, my one criticism is that I'm not really seeing what the win condition is here? Lots of bouncing creatures, but not a lot of weight to bring against your opponents. You might end up sweating bullets if the other player brings out anything beefy with Hexproof.

Agreed. I think the solution is less bounce and more stealing things. Control Magic and its many spin offs are 2f1 removal that puts a lethal threat in play and kills a creature. Also Desertion, Spell Swindle, Bribery, etc. are all good in blue for closing out games.

[gooddragon1]

Agreed. I think the solution is less bounce and more stealing things. Control Magic and its many spin offs are 2f1 removal that puts a lethal threat in play and kills a creature. Also Desertion, Spell Swindle, Bribery, etc. are all good in blue for closing out games.

That's kind of mean... stealing stuff. Could cloning work? I actually changed a few things and won with a clone legion. The objective was really just to have orvar out and copy my lands. Turned out to be a hassle making that many token copies of lands though.

My thought process was:
Hmm, if I keep making token lands instead of winning they're going to get upset.
Hmm, I could make lands faster with radiate+mythos of Illuna
Hmm, if I do that it's still going to be a hassle.
Hmm, why not Cabal Coffers instead?

So not infinite mana, but a lot of mana to play with. I've thought of brudiclad and making a token land, but same problem. Even with cloudpost. Cabal Coffers + Urborg seems like an idea, but I'm just not even sure what I want to build now. Tokens? But they won't be big enough.

I kind of want to use my Diabolic Revelation+Elixir of Immortality+Some other Tutors engine to ensure I always have the cards I want, but I question whether that's casual. Just not sure.

[Tvtyrant]

That's kind of mean... stealing stuff. Could cloning work? I actually changed a few things and won with a clone legion. The objective was really just to have orvar out and copy my lands. Turned out to be a hassle making that many token copies of lands though.

My thought process was:
Hmm, if I keep making token lands instead of winning they're going to get upset.
Hmm, I could make lands faster with radiate+mythos of Illuna
Hmm, if I do that it's still going to be a hassle.
Hmm, why not Cabal Coffers instead?

So not infinite mana, but a lot of mana to play with. I've thought of brudiclad and making a token land, but same problem. Even with cloudpost. Cabal Coffers + Urborg seems like an idea, but I'm just not even sure what I want to build now. Tokens? But they won't be big enough.

I kind of want to use my Diabolic Revelation+Elixir of Immortality+Some other Tutors engine to ensure I always have the cards I want, but I question whether that's casual. Just not sure.

I don't think so? Stealing creatures is about as fair as you can be, the power of it is based on how powerful their stuff is.

Casual is relative, but I always felt that the clunkier the combo is the more casual it is. Any combo that requires 3+ pieces or multiple pieces to combo off in a way that doesn't actually win while using a lot of mana is probably fine.

[Zhentarim]

Is this a good deck?
https://mtgarena.pro/decks/bant-angels-standard-2022

[enderlord99]

Most of you guys are alright; if you're Platinum in constructed, stay out of Historic ranked for a few days.

I'm bringing back the Trampoline Museum, and y'all don't want to encounter that.

[Zhentarim]

Are bant angels competitive in standard?

[Mystic Muse]

Are bant angels competitive in standard?

Based on MTGGoldfish's metagame breakdown, probably not.

[Techwarrior]

Are bant angels competitive in standard?

This question leaves me curious as to what is drawing you to this in the current format. A quick search reveals 1 blue angel and 1 green angel. A second search found no real payoffs to be in either U or G that aren't changelings. Unless I'm missing something I have no idea what a "bant angels" list looks like in the current format.

To the best of my knowledge, the last time angels was competitive in standard was when Wilderness Reclamation was legal. That deck was Esper midrange though, with the payoff being the legendary Baneslayer creature.

[Giggling Ghast]

I only just saw this, but I guess they’re doing another Un- parody set in April, this time with an outer space circus/amusement park theme.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ond-2021-11-29

[Zhentarim]

This question leaves me curious as to what is drawing you to this in the current format. A quick search reveals 1 blue angel and 1 green angel. A second search found no real payoffs to be in either U or G that aren't changelings. Unless I'm missing something I have no idea what a "bant angels" list looks like in the current format.

To the best of my knowledge, the last time angels was competitive in standard was when Wilderness Reclamation was legal. That deck was Esper midrange though, with the payoff being the legendary Baneslayer creature.

I just like the idealist flavor of the bant set and I'm waiting on it to come back.
Also, I'm hoping that one of these days, a set comes out that gives White its chance in the sun. We could use a little idealist flavor.

[Mystic Muse]

I just like the idealist flavor of the bant set and I'm waiting on it to come back.
Also, I'm hoping that one of these days, a set comes out that gives White its chance in the sun. We could use a little idealist flavor.

Any parrticular reason for this apparent 180 in moral outlook?

[Binks]

I only just saw this, but I guess they’re doing another Un- parody set in April, this time with an outer space circus/amusement park theme.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ond-2021-11-29

Yep. I'm in the camp of generally "meh" on un-stuff (aside from contraptions, which were awesome) but I'm looking forward to this set if for no other reason than the outside help on names/flavor text. LRR have been among my favorite comedians for over a decade so seeing cards they wrote text for seems so cool :). Fingers crossed it's mechanically interesting since it's already nailed interesting flavor and an intriguing "gimmick" :)

[Giggling Ghast]

“Good game,” my opponent with the Teferi avatar says in the opening turn, as though the game were already over. And indeed, perhaps he has the deck to back up that confidence, we're not far into the game, and he has a couple of 7/7 and 8/8 beatsticks summoned, along with with Saryth the Viper’s Fang; Kohma, World Serpent; Wrenn and Seven and another planeswalker whose name escapes me.

But I’m playing Red/Green Werewolves and I have a crapload of them out thanks to Howlpack Piper. (A must-have for werewolf decks, BTW.) Then I cast Ill-Tempered Loner, give it Haste thanks to Reckless Stormseeker, and his giant wall of monsters turns into a liability as I attack with everyone and transfer all the damage his monsters deal my wolves into direct damage aimed at his head. He gets brought down to -1 life and I hit the "Good game" emote just before the game ends.

That, my friends, is a lesson in hubris.

[Techwarrior]

“Good game,” my opponent with the Teferi avatar says in the opening turn, as though the game were already over. And indeed, perhaps he has the deck to back up that confidence, we're not far into the game, and he has a couple of 7/7 and 8/8 beatsticks summoned, along with with Saryth the Viper’s Fang; Kohma, World Serpent; Wrenn and Seven and another planeswalker whose name escapes me.

But I’m playing Red/Green Werewolves and I have a crapload of them out thanks to Howlpack Piper. (A must-have for werewolf decks, BTW.) Then I cast Ill-Tempered Loner, give it Haste thanks to Reckless Stormseeker, and his giant wall of monsters turns into a liability as I attack with everyone and transfer all the damage his monsters deal my wolves into direct damage aimed at his head. He gets brought down to -1 life and I hit the "Good game" emote just before the game ends.

That, my friends, is a lesson in hubris.

Last I checked, admittedly this was a while ago, there wasn't a "good luck" emote and good game was as close as you could get. Not saying they necessarily weren't being a jerk, just that it's possible.