Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spikes

[Zombimode]

Scores? We got Tasha and I think that's it, and they gave Minsc a planeswalker card probably because they had a good design for one and it makes no mechanical difference anyway. Plus, they hit a ton of good D&D stuff, as I understand it got nearly every PC from the video games, and made what, I have been told, is a great draft environment.

Going over the complete set, you're right. There are not "scores" of Greyhawk characters. It's Tasha and a reference to Bigby in one card. Still, two are two too many. They couldn't be bothered to find an actual Forgotten Realms character for the Tasha card?

Named characters in general. I didn't recognize like 80% of the names. I can only assume that these are characters from the Larian Baldurs Gate game, right?
And some of the references that I do recognize seem like really strange choices. Obscure creatures like the Hollyphant or the Nothic.
Or featuring Alora of all things - a character that is extremely easy to miss, and because you meet her so late into that game almost nobody had her in the party.

There are so many strange choices in what to represent and how so that at least in my eyes the set is not a very convincing setting representation of either Baldurs Gate or the Forgotten Realms.


Hm... or maybe the set is meant to feature Larians vision of the setting. That would probably explain a lot of the design decisions.

[LaZodiac]

Going over the complete set, you're right. There are not "scores" of Greyhawk characters. It's Tasha and a reference to Bigby in one card. Still, two are two too many. They couldn't be bothered to find an actual Forgotten Realms character for the Tasha card?

Named characters in general. I didn't recognize like 80% of the names. I can only assume that these are characters from the Larian Baldurs Gate game, right?
And some of the references that I do recognize seem like really strange choices. Obscure creatures like the Hollyphant or the Nothic.
Or featuring Alora of all things - a character that is extremely easy to miss, and because you meet her so late into that game almost nobody had her in the party.

There are so many strange choices in what to represent and how so that at least in my eyes the set is not a very convincing setting representation of either Baldurs Gate or the Forgotten Realms.


Hm... or maybe the set is meant to feature Larians vision of the setting. That would probably explain a lot of the design decisions.

Tasha recently had a book come out, and is a popular character everyone likes. She also became friends with Mordenkainen. Tasha being a Planeswalker and the only Greyhawk character in the set might be connected, for those reasons.

Basically every named character is from the Baldur's Gate games. Not just the third one either (it's actually in the minority on that front), but the originals as well. There's a handful of OCs, mostly the Dragonborn ones. They went for deep cuts for people like you who WOULD recognize them; like "oh **** it's a Hollyphant! Or oh dang that's a Nothic, those are cool". That kinda thing.

Honestly, the sheer variety and weirdness of the set is what best encompasses DND to me. Yeah you can be a halfling paladin with a minor nature theme, that's cool. You can be a dragonborn sorcerer with incredible power. You can be a dude who eats magic items like snacks. DND lets you be whoever you want, so showcasing that with a wide range of characters both obscure and well known makes sense!

[Fable Wright]

Tasha recently had a book come out, and is a popular character everyone likes.

Not to derail, but can I have a citation on Tasha being liked? I've seen a substantial amount of backlash for how she gets away with a Neutral alignment despite being Chaotic Evil in every prior edition, backlash against her book removing mechanical depth from 5e, and complaints about her portrayal.

[Spore]

Reading this reminded me that Halaster Blackcloak was higher level than Elminster, despite not having the advantage of being an author avatar. And made me realize that Halaster would have been a freaking awesome and horrifying character to make into a canonical Planeswalker.

Come to think of it, if Undermountain isn't a legendary land, I'll be sad for a while.

Halaster and Tasha are great, yes. But the spaces of douchebag mad wizard and bad bitch witch are already taken.

[LaZodiac]

Not to derail, but can I have a citation on Tasha being liked? I've seen a substantial amount of backlash for how she gets away with a Neutral alignment despite being Chaotic Evil in every prior edition, backlash against her book removing mechanical depth from 5e, and complaints about her portrayal.

Admittedly I'm only aware of what I've seen, and what I've seen is people liking her. She's a cool witch lady with named spells and a rad vibe.

Also I have no idea how her book "removes mechanical depth from 5e", as I've read it and think it's rad, but that's for another thread.

[Dienekes]

Not to derail, but can I have a citation on Tasha being liked? I've seen a substantial amount of backlash for how she gets away with a Neutral alignment despite being Chaotic Evil in every prior edition, backlash against her book removing mechanical depth from 5e, and complaints about her portrayal.

She's... a lot.

There's been a kind of shift I've noticed recently that a lot of conventionally attractive female villains get their harsh edges scrapped aside and turned into some kind of cheeky heroine. And Tasha is the D&D example. I'm generally not a fan of it, especially when they get saddled with the "lol random" style of humor that seems so popular these days. But, I don't think it would be a trend if it wasn't popular.

Iggwilv may to me remain the vile lover of Graz'zt, whose lust for power made them both betray each other, mother of evils spread over the planes. Delighting in torment and reaping the benefits of madness wherever she goes. Who pretty much just deserves an axe to the face on sight.

But I have a feeling now that D&D audience has grown quite dramatically over the last few years. The toned down, "clever snarky" witch presented in Tasha's Cauldron will have as big if not bigger the audience she had before. I don't have numbers, obviously, but I also don't think WotC would use her again so soon if there wasn't some positive response to her.

[Zombimode]

Basically every named character is from the Baldur's Gate games. Not just the third one either (it's actually in the minority on that front), but the originals as well.

Hm, among the legendary creatures and planeswalkers I've counted 19 characters that appear in some way in the original trilogy. But that includes Abdel Adrian, who is %Charname in the novelization and thus does not actually appear in game. And Myrkul who has no active role in the plot. That leaves 17 characters.
Contrast that with 40 characters that do not appear in the original trilogy.

Combine that with the art direction, the choice of references and general tone I don't think it is unfair to say that neither the original trilogy nor the Forgotten Realms as a setting was the focus of the Battle for Baldurs Gate magic set. Instead it focuses more on the more recent additions to the general D&D lore.

That's not really a criticism, mind you. Just an observation.

[NeoVid]

Halaster and Tasha are great, yes. But the spaces of douchebag mad wizard and bad bitch witch are already taken.

Solid point, I'll just have to keep hoping we see Braids as a planeswalker someday.

There's been a kind of shift I've noticed recently that a lot of conventionally attractive female villains get their harsh edges scrapped aside and turned into some kind of cheeky heroine. And Tasha is the D&D example. I'm generally not a fan of it, especially when they get saddled with the "lol random" style of humor that seems so popular these days. But, I don't think it would be a trend if it wasn't popular.

Hearing Tasha described as attractive is weirding me out, considering the first backstory I heard about her was that's she's actually a hag who disguised herself to take up adventuring.

[Dienekes]

Hearing Tasha described as attractive is weirding me out, considering the first backstory I heard about her was that's she's actually a hag who disguised herself to take up adventuring.

As far as I'm aware, she not a hag technically. But she may be very, very old (which honestly, that is just what a hag looks like with claw fingernails) and glamoring herself with magic. But, every piece of art with her was essentially a lithe Elvira with straight hair. So I'm counting her as being conventionally attractive female.

[Personification]

On the Tasha attractiveness point, my understanding is that she looks however she wants to, and she tends to choose to look like a conventionally attractive woman.

Also, I don't care what they do with the lore, she made what is objectively the best first level spell (Hideous Laughter, I will not be taking comments) and that makes me like her.

[noob]

Also, I don't care what they do with the lore, she made what is objectively the best first level spell (Hideous Laughter, I will not be taking comments) and that makes me like her.

Of course it is a strong level 1 spell: it used to be a level 2 spell then got shoved in level 1 for some reason.

[Spore]

As far as I'm aware, she not a hag technically. But she may be very, very old (which honestly, that is just what a hag looks like with claw fingernails) and glamoring herself with magic. But, every piece of art with her was essentially a lithe Elvira with straight hair. So I'm counting her as being conventionally attractive female.

Everything that is hag or hag adjacent and extremely old I do not trust on face value. But she is a human wizard (according to D&D 3.5 and probably Magic as well). She created a pocket plane in the feywild, and is more or less the gal that the hags REPORT to. She does not need to be a hag, when she is the witch queen of all hags.

Of course it is a strong level 1 spell: it used to be a level 2 spell then got shoved in level 1 for some reason.

I play a lot of clerics in 5e, which happens to often target humans and will/wisdom saves. Believe me, Laughter being first level is appropriate. You lock down anyone that has a sense of humor. But the simplifications in the rules made the spell powerful again.

In 3.5 every other schmuck was immune to enchantments or had huge situational boni against it. In 5e you suddenly can make a skeleton laugh. Or an elemental.

[LaZodiac]

Everything that is hag or hag adjacent and extremely old I do not trust on face value. But she is a human wizard (according to D&D 3.5 and probably Magic as well). She created a pocket plane in the feywild, and is more or less the gal that the hags REPORT to. She does not need to be a hag, when she is the witch queen of all hags.



I play a lot of clerics in 5e, which happens to often target humans and will/wisdom saves. Believe me, Laughter being first level is appropriate. You lock down anyone that has a sense of humor. But the simplifications in the rules made the spell powerful again.

In 3.5 every other schmuck was immune to enchantments or had huge situational boni against it. In 5e you suddenly can make a skeleton laugh. Or an elemental.

Elementals are sentient and sapient so that makes sense, and it's magically compulsive laughter- even if skeletons can't find anything particularly funny, they are capable of miming the actions of laughter, make no bones about it.

[Androgeus]

even if skeletons can't find anything particularly funny, they are capable of miming the actions of laughter, make no bones about it.

Surely any well made spell will be able to find a skeleton’s funny bone?

[Giggling Ghast]

Hard Drive is a satirical website. You might have heard about their ongoing feud with Elon Musk.

https://hard-drive.net/new-magic-the...your-opponent/

Naturally, it’s used most often against Blue players.

[Spore]

Naturally, it’s used most often against Blue players.

What if my favorite colors are Izzet? Do we start a punchout?

(Sideboarding Grixis, so I have a knife hidden in the dark).

Surely any well made spell will be able to find a skeleton’s funny bone?

Is this the Undertale thread?

[Personification]

We're getting a dedicated Gladiator Queue!

[LaZodiac]

The Dominaria United story starts today!

Spoiler: Episode 1: Karn's no good very bad day

Show

We open on Karn ruminating on Urza being the worst father imaginable- but faced with the sad reality that he's kinda faling into his old man's patterns. Excavating the Cave of Koilos alone (it's easier, safer that way) and running afoul of Phyrexian agents on the plane, including fan favorite minor legendary card from the first Dominaria set; Rona! Sheoldred is also there, slowly being reconstructed after the Planar Gate travel, from old Phyrexian parts and new meat. Karn intends to kill them all as he charges towards Sheoldred with a bomb he magics up... but the weight of his past makes him unable to bring the hammer down on Rona himself, preferring the "bloodless" idea of just blowing them all up instead.

This ****s him over. Rona, though broken and battered, is not dead- and is Phyrexian in will if not body yet. She just forces herself through the pain and freezes him with a machine of her own devising, intended for him when he showed up (after Sheoldred stuns him a bit by whispering secrets to him. Turns out they have sleeper agents EVERYWHERE). She and Sheoldred leave, and bring the entire section of the cave they were prepping the invasion from down on him. They have other bases, losing this one is sad but nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Karn is locked under a metric ton of rock and old Phyrexian tech, can't move at all. So, time to planeswalk out... except all the old Phyrexian tech includes all the old portal tech, and while it's no longer functional as portals, they DO destabilize aether in the area... and the literal entire boat of it laying on top of him is stopping him from walking out. Alone, distant from anyone he could have trusted (afraid they'd die like Venser) Karn realizes he's kinda ****ed everything.

I'm calling that the "United" in Dominaria United is going to be... of a more compleat unity than expected, honestly. Phyrexia's won this one- the infestation is already here. Will the Planeswalkers who DO know Phyrexia is coming have time to unite with Karn's friends and organize a defense... or is Dominaria going to be the final domino in Elesh Norn's grand schema? We shall see!

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: On Dominaria United

Show

Hopefully not. kinda of a jerk writer move to make all of Urza's and Dominaria's sacrifices during Apocalypse meaningless like that. like seriously the amount of normal people and planeswalkers that died in the process of killing Yawgmoth is probably second only to War of the Spark now, and that was back when they were all godlike entities. if all we're getting is Phyrexian Invasion 2 but with plot armor to make it succeed, I'm just rolling my eyes, cause they are never going to match the original story.

[Dienekes]

Spoiler: On Dominaria United

Show

Hopefully not. kinda of a jerk writer move to make all of Urza's and Dominaria's sacrifices during Apocalypse meaningless like that. like seriously the amount of normal people and planeswalkers that died in the process of killing Yawgmoth is probably second only to War of the Spark now, and that was back when they were all godlike entities. if all we're getting is Phyrexian Invasion 2 but with plot armor to make it succeed, I'm just rolling my eyes, cause they are never going to match the original story.

Spoiler

Show

That’s what happens when a story goes on after the finale. You can’t do the same story twice, so if you’re doing the same framework gotta make it different somehow. Having the villains ascend for awhile could do it.

You are right of course. It does kinda leave a bad taste. But then, I’m still far more attached to Gerard, Squee, Sisay, Tahngarth, Astor the Upstart, Bo Levar, and, of course, Commodore Guff than pretty much any of the current crop of characters.

But that’s probably a lot of nostalgia talking.

Hopefully the story is well written and meaningful whatever they do with it.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: On Dominaria United

Show

Hopefully not. kinda of a jerk writer move to make all of Urza's and Dominaria's sacrifices during Apocalypse meaningless like that. like seriously the amount of normal people and planeswalkers that died in the process of killing Yawgmoth is probably second only to War of the Spark now, and that was back when they were all godlike entities. if all we're getting is Phyrexian Invasion 2 but with plot armor to make it succeed, I'm just rolling my eyes, cause they are never going to match the original story.

For what it's worth I don't think they'll bother, like, attacking Dominaria. They're here to get supplies. My guess is Elesh Norn wants to ascend to godhood as a Mother of Machines, and they want some old tech for it.

[Personification]

I urge everyone to play the Gladiator event on Arena. It's probably the most fun I've had playing since I started. If you don't have a huge collection, they have provided 10 decks that you can use phantom, and you can save the lists to actually craft the cards if you want, but you can also make your own decks to play. It's only available until the 15th, and presumably if it does well they will add an actual long-term queue so please play it.

I've been having a ton of success with my own personal brew here. (Which might be why I am enjoying the format so much. It is allowing my inner Spike to validate my Inner Johnny)

As one of the 3 Vorthoses of the thread's title, take the fact that I am more excited about this than the DMU lore (which has been very good so far) as evidence of the quality of the format.

[LaZodiac]

As one of the 3 Vorthoses of the thread's title, take the fact that I am more excited about this than the DMU lore (which has been very good so far) as evidence of the quality of the format.

The only reason I haven't posted my quick recaps of the stories is because I didn't wanna double post. But yeah that's a good point.

ANYWAY

Three stories to go over, yesterday's and the TWO today.

Spoiler: DomU Chapter 2: Karn squishes a bird, ruins two countries worth of peace time

Show

Long and short of this one; Karn was stuck for months, finally got saved by Ajani since the letters Jhoira sent him had a magical tracker on them that let her know he left her on read for who knows how long. Karn experiences genuine anxiety over this, which is beautiful. They go to the place New Benalia and the Keld are holding peace talks, and no one really believes Karn about Sheoldred... until Teferi shows up reporting about Kaya's encounter with Daddy Vorebucks and Jin being on Kamigawa. He also later tells the walkers in confidence that Tamiyo got got, so now they know how threatening this truly is. Karn hides the Silex, the next morning finds a sleeper agent spy-bird, and revealing that to the collected people here makes things Not Great- Anor Capashen (the leader of the Capashen house and current boss of New Benalia) gets kidnapped by sleeper agents who wake up, Radha takes the remaining living Benalian's and her Keldons and fights a retreating battle. Ajani chases after the kidnapped Capashen so he misses out on Karn, Jaya, Jodha, Teferi, and the New Argivian mediator Stenn teleporting out to a New Argivian watchtower for safety... but a phyrexian slips in with them. The place goes on lockdown, and it becomes...

Spoiler: DomU Chapter 3: Old Walker Squad Play Among Us

Show

... a story of Find The Nasty Lad! Feels very reminescent of scenes from The Thing, especially given the absolutely brutal body horror. I love it; eyeballs with teeth for eyelashes, hands coming out of eyes, ripcages opening up like zippers. It's brilliant. Karn sets things up so he can tell fake info to each person with him in turn to see who is a potential Sleeper agent among them as they play pin the tail on the Phyrexian- a difficult thing given near every time it's attacked it splits into two, and the inner organs unfold out to become legs! Jaya gets hurt, Johda runs out of steam, Teferi just about gets eviserated, and it becomes clear this entire watchtower is infected, the Phyrexian's everwhere. Sadly Stenn is the Phyrexian agent... and given his job before mediating was "root out the sleeper agents" it is likely that New Argive belongs to the Machine Orthodoxy now. They call for the Weatherlight, and hope it arrives in time to rescue them.

We also got our first side story, featuring everyone's unproblematic fav who did no wrong, Liliana Vess!

Spoiler: DomU Side Story: Liliana is the best character don't at me

Show

Back on Arcavios, Liliana is depressed and sad and feels she deserves it. Wrong but valid. Then good ole Raven Man shows up, makes her break her favorite cup, and she decides she's officially hit rock bottom: time to find a way to rip this ****er out of her head. She studies the books in Strixhaven's massive library, and eventually finds it out; THE Necromancer, Lim-Dul himself, confirming a long held theory about the guy. She returns to her home to see what it was he kept bugging her about, and it turns out he needs her to fight the Phyrexians- a Dominarian Kor lady (Elas il-Kor, who has amazing art) is trying to dig up the last remnant of Lim-Dul that's currently available, the ring of that one body snatcher wizard that Lim-Dul kinda overpowered. If you're an old lorehead you know the one, Marsi or something?

Point is, they want the ring. Which means Liliana is gonna murderize some Phyrexians, which she does quite effectively. Elas escapes to be a cool legendary in the set, and Liliana uses magic to bury the ring even further into the depths- not taking it and specifically NOT using any of its powers, cause she's tired of working for a crusty old man who won't get out of her skull. Raven Man seems satisfied though, since nominally this is all things he wanted to happen.

If this all sounds messily recapped that is because of me, not the story itself. This is probably the best the story has been in a long time, and I am saying that as someone who actually LIKES the story content we've gotten. They're clearly reaching for the stars and actually making it. Props to Seanan McGuire for finally giving Liliana some respect after everyone was very rude and mean to her in War of the Spark, and after she was Just Kind Of There (but still done well) in Strixhaven.

[RayGallade]

I urge everyone to play the Gladiator event on Arena. It's probably the most fun I've had playing since I started. If you don't have a huge collection, they have provided 10 decks that you can use phantom, and you can save the lists to actually craft the cards if you want, but you can also make your own decks to play. It's only available until the 15th, and presumably if it does well they will add an actual long-term queue so please play it.

I've been having a ton of success with my own personal brew here. (Which might be why I am enjoying the format so much. It is allowing my inner Spike to validate my Inner Johnny)

As one of the 3 Vorthoses of the thread's title, take the fact that I am more excited about this than the DMU lore (which has been very good so far) as evidence of the quality of the format.

See, I had the complete opposite reaction to it. I threw together a list running almost every Phyrexian related creature/card along with all the Tezzerets, Compleated Tamiyo, ValkiTibalt, and so on. Figured it was thematic, fun, and could communicate the theme as I played out the smaller Phyrexians. Then I promptly ran into a ton of hyper aggressive red decks, Esper Control lists, theft decks, and so on. Without a commander to fall back on, I just felt like I was running into a wall of Spikes instead of the Timmies and Johnnies that I was looking for.
Ended up switching to a low-to-the-ground Goblin deck to get my two Bo3 wins and leave the event.

[LaZodiac]

See, I had the complete opposite reaction to it. I threw together a list running almost every Phyrexian related creature/card along with all the Tezzerets, Compleated Tamiyo, ValkiTibalt, and so on. Figured it was thematic, fun, and could communicate the theme as I played out the smaller Phyrexians. Then I promptly ran into a ton of hyper aggressive red decks, Esper Control lists, theft decks, and so on. Without a commander to fall back on, I just felt like I was running into a wall of Spikes instead of the Timmies and Johnnies that I was looking for.
Ended up switching to a low-to-the-ground Goblin deck to get my two Bo3 wins and leave the event.

For what it's worth you're likely to get a new Phyrexian commander in the next set.

[Personification]

The only reason I haven't posted my quick recaps of the stories is because I didn't wanna double post. But yeah that's a good point.

ANYWAY

Three stories to go over, yesterday's and the TWO today.

Spoiler: DomU Chapter 2: Karn squishes a bird, ruins two countries worth of peace time

Show

Long and short of this one; Karn was stuck for months, finally got saved by Ajani since the letters Jhoira sent him had a magical tracker on them that let her know he left her on read for who knows how long. Karn experiences genuine anxiety over this, which is beautiful. They go to the place New Benalia and the Keld are holding peace talks, and no one really believes Karn about Sheoldred... until Teferi shows up reporting about Kaya's encounter with Daddy Vorebucks and Jin being on Kamigawa. He also later tells the walkers in confidence that Tamiyo got got, so now they know how threatening this truly is. Karn hides the Silex, the next morning finds a sleeper agent spy-bird, and revealing that to the collected people here makes things Not Great- Anor Capashen (the leader of the Capashen house and current boss of New Benalia) gets kidnapped by sleeper agents who wake up, Radha takes the remaining living Benalian's and her Keldons and fights a retreating battle. Ajani chases after the kidnapped Capashen so he misses out on Karn, Jaya, Jodha, Teferi, and the New Argivian mediator Stenn teleporting out to a New Argivian watchtower for safety... but a phyrexian slips in with them. The place goes on lockdown, and it becomes...

First of all, I am stealing Daddy Vorebucks.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

I think your summary pretty much does it, though you skipped the part about the actual squishing of the bird (a varied thrush, as the story tells us nine times) which Karn honestly waited way too long to squish because he probably guessed that it could be a spy pretty soon. I will also say that he probably didn't ruin the peace talks, though he did cause some friction (Teferi caused more) and it felt weird that all of these walkers felt the need (and had the ability) to barge into the late stages of a sensitive meeting to announce it rather than go to the leaders of individual regions at a better moment. Why even choose Benalia and Keld first anyway? Sheoldred's base was in the Caves of Koilos on Terisiaire (another continent/archipelago). Similarly, it felt like all of the oldwalkers (and Jodah, who is older than most of them) were carrying the conflict ball. For ancient beings who have been friends, or at least friendly, for lifetimes, they all seemed intent on behaving in the most soap-operatic way with regards to interpreting each others words. Because this all sounds negative, I want to clarify that I loved the story and I'm just being nitpicky. I also really liked how it showed Ajani's reaction to Tamiyo, and I could almost feel him barely being able to resist the urge to walk to Kamigawa to make sure Nashi is OK (he's probably not) and then immediately run to phyrexia to start splitting heads.

Spoiler: DomU Chapter 3: Old Walker Squad Play Among Us

Show

... a story of Find The Nasty Lad! Feels very reminescent of scenes from The Thing, especially given the absolutely brutal body horror. I love it; eyeballs with teeth for eyelashes, hands coming out of eyes, ripcages opening up like zippers. It's brilliant. Karn sets things up so he can tell fake info to each person with him in turn to see who is a potential Sleeper agent among them as they play pin the tail on the Phyrexian- a difficult thing given near every time it's attacked it splits into two, and the inner organs unfold out to become legs! Jaya gets hurt, Johda runs out of steam, Teferi just about gets eviserated, and it becomes clear this entire watchtower is infected, the Phyrexian's everwhere. Sadly Stenn is the Phyrexian agent... and given his job before mediating was "root out the sleeper agents" it is likely that New Argive belongs to the Machine Orthodoxy now. They call for the Weatherlight, and hope it arrives in time to rescue them.

Spoiler: (That thunk-thunk sound. Not the Netflix one or the Law & Order one, you know the one)

Show

I totally agree with your positive comments. I didn't catch the Thing-ness until you mentioned it, but in hindsight the connection is obvious. We also got what looks to be the art for another Multi-Kicker Combo with Jodah and Jaya, which I can't wait to see and I think is a great way to use the mechanic and create ludonarrative harmony. Similarly, I am staking my claim now that the very heavy focus on Phyrexians dividing up is a way of incorporating the return of modular (or a similar mechanic) into the story. If not modular, it will be something along the lines of the Ooze from AFR. My only complaints are that the conflict ball thing from the previous chapters continued into this one and that Stenn was so obviously the Imposter (thunk-thunk) that the only reason I had to doubt it was that he was too obvious. He even went into the boiler room, alone, after lampshading that he shouldn't and survived. I also felt like Teferi did nothing. He is still a very powerful time mage and at no point does he even try to use his magic onscreen until he is bleeding out and therefore too weak to make the spell work (Jodah also felt a bit too weak, though the explanation that non-planeswalking portaling is super-extra-hard and draining was enough of a handwave).

We also got our first side story, featuring everyone's unproblematic fav who did no wrong, Liliana Vess!

Spoiler: DomU Side Story: Liliana is the best character don't at me

Show

Back on Arcavios, Liliana is depressed and sad and feels she deserves it. Wrong but valid. Then good ole Raven Man shows up, makes her break her favorite cup, and she decides she's officially hit rock bottom: time to find a way to rip this ****er out of her head. She studies the books in Strixhaven's massive library, and eventually finds it out; THE Necromancer, Lim-Dul himself, confirming a long held theory about the guy. She returns to her home to see what it was he kept bugging her about, and it turns out he needs her to fight the Phyrexians- a Dominarian Kor lady (Elas il-Kor, who has amazing art) is trying to dig up the last remnant of Lim-Dul that's currently available, the ring of that one body snatcher wizard that Lim-Dul kinda overpowered. If you're an old lorehead you know the one, Marsi or something?

Point is, they want the ring. Which means Liliana is gonna murderize some Phyrexians, which she does quite effectively. Elas escapes to be a cool legendary in the set, and Liliana uses magic to bury the ring even further into the depths- not taking it and specifically NOT using any of its powers, cause she's tired of working for a crusty old man who won't get out of her skull. Raven Man seems satisfied though, since nominally this is all things he wanted to happen.

If this all sounds messily recapped that is because of me, not the story itself. This is probably the best the story has been in a long time, and I am saying that as someone who actually LIKES the story content we've gotten. They're clearly reaching for the stars and actually making it. Props to Seanan McGuire for finally giving Liliana some respect after everyone was very rude and mean to her in War of the Spark, and after she was Just Kind Of There (but still done well) in Strixhaven.

Spoiler: I won't bother arguing with your first assertion and mostly agree with your second one

Show

I mostly agree with your points (though I do think that Lili was actually fairly well characterized in WAR: Ravnica from my admittedly hazy memory of my one read through. She didn't get enough page time to deviate from the outline of her arc's end, which was too well set up to completely ruin, and I felt that her conflicting thoughts accurately portrayed the mono-black ideal of "better to die epically than be enslaved eternally to someone I hate". That's not to say that the book was good, just not the worst. And if you mean the other one I don't know what you are talking about they never published a second WAR book.) and the summary overall is good so I'm just going to add my own thoughts. First, I absolutely loved the opening, a reminder that Arcavios is neither Liliana's birth home (RavnicaDominaria (stupid autopilot brain)) nor her chosen one (Innistrad). Apparently, when not stinging Nick Cage to death the bees of Gavony make really good honey. The way it was written was very poetic and it immediately reminds the reader what the setting is and who the character is, plus, I like the little things in lore. I also really liked her musing about the way that, having become more swampy than foresty, the Caligo is more attuned with her now, and I liked the nod to the fact that every Dominarian learns of the ancient phyrexian invasion and every planeswalker learns of the evil workings of the Yawgfather of Machines. A little note that, whether intentional or not, adds a point of extra tragedy to the character of Elas il-Kor is that among the Rathi tribes, the prefix en- meant that they had allied themselves with the evincars and the Phyrexians, and il- meant that they were part of the resistance, so I am going to take this to mean that Elas was one in a long line of anti-Phyrexian resistors compleated against their will. Also, for the record, the original owner of the ring was Mairsl (called The Pretender). Last we knew of it, the ring (assuming it is the one seen in previous stories) was controlling Jaya until she sparked, breaking its hold on her and presumably destroying it and the remnants of the souls of Lim-Dûl and Mairsil (called The Pretender) within it. Obviously if it is that ring then it actually survived the event and was passed down from mage to mage until it was obtained by a Lord or Lady of the House of Vess. Thankfully, the House of Vess have long been, and always will be, unwavering supporters and often members of the Forward Order, who focus on healing magic and purity, so at that point it was buried, never again to be used for evil. What could possibly go wrong! The repeated mention of being a link in the chain could also mean that there is a tie to the Chain Veil, an artifact from Shandalar, where the actual Lim-Dûl was last seen, that contains trapped souls. I feel like there is a heavy implication that the goal was, at least partly, to literally turn Liliana into another link in the chain of the veil, but that also conflicts with the theory that this is the part of Lim-Dûl that is trapped in the ring of Mairsil (called The Pretender) so *shrug*. Also, I will admit that I am not that old of a Vorthos. I just read through the MTG Wiki pages of Lim-Dûl and Vess Manor after reading the story.

See, I had the complete opposite reaction to it. I threw together a list running almost every Phyrexian related creature/card along with all the Tezzerets, Compleated Tamiyo, ValkiTibalt, and so on. Figured it was thematic, fun, and could communicate the theme as I played out the smaller Phyrexians. Then I promptly ran into a ton of hyper aggressive red decks, Esper Control lists, theft decks, and so on. Without a commander to fall back on, I just felt like I was running into a wall of Spikes instead of the Timmies and Johnnies that I was looking for.
Ended up switching to a low-to-the-ground Goblin deck to get my two Bo3 wins and leave the event.

I think the issue was the approach to the format. Though they have many similarities, Gladiator isn't really that much like Historic Brawl, and shouldn't be treated as such. It is a format for Spikes (or people who are willing to give into their Spikiness) who want to use their old favorite tech card but in a non-singleton format would have to cut it because there is a better alternative. For example, I don't play Teysa in my Historic Orzhov sacrifice deck, because I don't have space for many 4-drops and Yawgmoth is too good, but in Gladiator I get to play both. Thematic and flavorful decks can and do exist in the format, but to do well only if they are mechanically supported, like elves or goblins. As LaZodiac mentioned, there may well be a Phyrexian tribal deck to play after DMU, but until the type becomes mechanically relevant it probably won't win you many games of gladiator. That said, I recommend trying out some other decks with more spikiness in mind, because it really is fun gameplay.

[LaZodiac]

First of all, I am stealing Daddy Vorebucks.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

I think your summary pretty much does it, though you skipped the part about the actual squishing of the bird (a varied thrush, as the story tells us nine times) which Karn honestly waited way too long to squish because he probably guessed that it could be a spy pretty soon. I will also say that he probably didn't ruin the peace talks, though he did cause some friction (Teferi caused more) and it felt weird that all of these walkers felt the need (and had the ability) to barge into the late stages of a sensitive meeting to announce it rather than go to the leaders of individual regions at a better moment. Why even choose Benalia and Keld first anyway? Sheoldred's base was in the Caves of Koilos on Terisiaire (another continent/archipelago). Similarly, it felt like all of the oldwalkers (and Jodah, who is older than most of them) were carrying the conflict ball. For ancient beings who have been friends, or at least friendly, for lifetimes, they all seemed intent on behaving in the most soap-operatic way with regards to interpreting each others words. Because this all sounds negative, I want to clarify that I loved the story and I'm just being nitpicky. I also really liked how it showed Ajani's reaction to Tamiyo, and I could almost feel him barely being able to resist the urge to walk to Kamigawa to make sure Nashi is OK (he's probably not) and then immediately run to phyrexia to start splitting heads.

Spoiler: (That thunk-thunk sound. Not the Netflix one or the Law & Order one, you know the one)

Show

I totally agree with your positive comments. I didn't catch the Thing-ness until you mentioned it, but in hindsight the connection is obvious. We also got what looks to be the art for another Multi-Kicker Combo with Jodah and Jaya, which I can't wait to see and I think is a great way to use the mechanic and create ludonarrative harmony. Similarly, I am staking my claim now that the very heavy focus on Phyrexians dividing up is a way of incorporating the return of modular (or a similar mechanic) into the story. If not modular, it will be something along the lines of the Ooze from AFR. My only complaints are that the conflict ball thing from the previous chapters continued into this one and that Stenn was so obviously the Imposter (thunk-thunk) that the only reason I had to doubt it was that he was too obvious. He even went into the boiler room, alone, after lampshading that he shouldn't and survived. I also felt like Teferi did nothing. He is still a very powerful time mage and at no point does he even try to use his magic onscreen until he is bleeding out and therefore too weak to make the spell work (Jodah also felt a bit too weak, though the explanation that non-planeswalking portaling is super-extra-hard and draining was enough of a handwave).

Spoiler: I won't bother arguing with your first assertion and mostly agree with your second one

Show

I mostly agree with your points (though I do think that Lili was actually fairly well characterized in WAR: Ravnica from my admittedly hazy memory of my one read through. She didn't get enough page time to deviate from the outline of her arc's end, which was too well set up to completely ruin, and I felt that her conflicting thoughts accurately portrayed the mono-black ideal of "better to die epically than be enslaved eternally to someone I hate". That's not to say that the book was good, just not the worst. And if you mean the other one I don't know what you are talking about they never published a second WAR book.) and the summary overall is good so I'm just going to add my own thoughts. First, I absolutely loved the opening, a reminder that Arcavios is neither Liliana's birth home (Ravnica) nor her chosen one (Innistrad). Apparently, when not stinging Nick Cage to death the bees of Gavony make really good honey. The way it was written was very poetic and it immediately reminds the reader what the setting is and who the character is, plus, I like the little things in lore. I also really liked her musing about the way that, having become more swampy than foresty, the Caligo is more attuned with her now, and I liked the nod to the fact that every Dominarian learns of the ancient phyrexian invasion and every planeswalker learns of the evil workings of the Yawgfather of Machines. A little note that, whether intentional or not, adds a point of extra tragedy to the character of Elas il-Kor is that among the Rathi tribes, the prefix en- meant that they had allied themselves with the evincars and the Phyrexians, and il- meant that they were part of the resistance, so I am going to take this to mean that Elas was one in a long line of anti-Phyrexian resistors compleated against their will. Also, for the record, the original owner of the ring was Mairsl (called The Pretender). Last we knew of it, the ring (assuming it is the one seen in previous stories) was controlling Jaya until she sparked, breaking its hold on her and presumably destroying it and the remnants of the souls of Lim-Dûl and Mairsil (called The Pretender) within it. Obviously if it is that ring then it actually survived the event and was passed down from mage to mage until it was obtained by a Lord or Lady of the House of Vess. Thankfully, the House of Vess have long been, and always will be, unwavering supporters and often members of the Forward Order, who focus on healing magic and purity, so at that point it was buried, never again to be used for evil. What could possibly go wrong! The repeated mention of being a link in the chain could also mean that there is a tie to the Chain Veil, an artifact from Shandalar, where the actual Lim-Dûl was last seen, that contains trapped souls. I feel like there is a heavy implication that the goal was, at least partly, to literally turn Liliana into another link in the chain of the veil, but that also conflicts with the theory that this is the part of Lim-Dûl that is trapped in the ring of Mairsil (called The Pretender) so *shrug*. Also, I will admit that I am not that old of a Vorthos. I just read through the MTG Wiki pages of Lim-Dûl and Vess Manor after reading the story.

I think the issue was the approach to the format. Though they have many similarities, Gladiator isn't really that much like Historic Brawl, and shouldn't be treated as such. It is a format for Spikes (or people who are willing to give into their Spikiness) who want to use their old favorite tech card but in a non-singleton format would have to cut it because there is a better alternative. For example, I don't play Teysa in my Historic Orzhov sacrifice deck, because I don't have space for many 4-drops and Yawgmoth is too good, but in Gladiator I get to play both. Thematic and flavorful decks can and do exist in the format, but to do well only if they are mechanically supported, like elves or goblins. As LaZodiac mentioned, there may well be a Phyrexian tribal deck to play after DMU, but until the type becomes mechanically relevant it probably won't win you many games of gladiator. That said, I recommend trying out some other decks with more spikiness in mind, because it really is fun gameplay.

Spoiler: Story stuff!

Show

They're going to New Benalia and Keld first because historically, the people most likely to drop everything and go murder happy on some flesh robots are those two. One was more or less founded in the wake of Girared killing Yawgmoth, and the other had their entire culture manipulated in service to them, and their cultural revolution was brought on by going "what if we murdered our gods?". So it makes sense to get the biggest powers with the most history in killing Phyrexians to help with the Phyrexians.

While I agree that Stenn was very obviously the imposter, a lotta people didn't notice it! I... do think Teferi was a little downplayed, but only because we just, never got to see him in action. It's hard to use time magic to effective when the entire room is against you. He probably did some rad **** off screen, and will do some cool stuff on screen. Jodha being wiped by the portal spells is, yeah, a little handwavy, but it's been shown teleporting IS pretty rough in this series.

I actually like Liliana in War of the Spark! But most of the fanbase I used to interact with hated her and hated it so I'm defensive of her!

Liliana was born on Dominaria, not Ravnica . Also I agree! Liliana tapping into Caligo was so cool; especially because it ties back to her Of The Veil card, with it's massive black mana generating stuff. That's rad!

Vorthos Jay, the guy who came up with the Lim-Dul theory, posits that Lim-Dul was split in half. He's also one of the Lore consultants and has been subtly over the past year or so floating this idea to people in the story team. I'll post his big write up about it below my response to you, that he did a long time ago (which is going to be followed up soon with a story of how it happened today). The long and short of it is that if you assume all things are canon, Lim-Dul got his soul split- some in the ring, and some in the Chain Veil.

As said; Vorthos Jay's article about the Raven Man. Do note also that before he joined the story team as a lore consultant, he was also the first person to float the idea Mother Luti was Jaya... like, five-ish years before we learned it was the case. The man knows his magic!

[Personification]

Spoiler: Story stuff!

Show

They're going to New Benalia and Keld first because historically, the people most likely to drop everything and go murder happy on some flesh robots are those two. One was more or less founded in the wake of Girared killing Yawgmoth, and the other had their entire culture manipulated in service to them, and their cultural revolution was brought on by going "what if we murdered our gods?". So it makes sense to get the biggest powers with the most history in killing Phyrexians to help with the Phyrexians.

While I agree that Stenn was very obviously the imposter, a lotta people didn't notice it! I... do think Teferi was a little downplayed, but only because we just, never got to see him in action. It's hard to use time magic to effective when the entire room is against you. He probably did some rad **** off screen, and will do some cool stuff on screen. Jodha being wiped by the portal spells is, yeah, a little handwavy, but it's been shown teleporting IS pretty rough in this series.

I actually like Liliana in War of the Spark! But most of the fanbase I used to interact with hated her and hated it so I'm defensive of her!

Liliana was born on Dominaria, not Ravnica

Vorthos Jay, the guy who came up with the Lim-Dul theory, posits that Lim-Dul was split in half. He's also one of the Lore consultants and has been subtly over the past year or so floating this idea to people in the story team. I'll post his big write up about it below my response to you, that he did a long time ago (which is going to be followed up soon with a story of how it happened today). The long and short of it is that if you assume all things are canon, Lim-Dul got his soul split- some in the ring, and some in the Chain Veil.

As said; Vorthos Jay's article about the Raven Man. Do note also that before he joined the story team as a lore consultant, he was also the first person to float the idea Mother Luti was Jaya... like, five-ish years before we learned it was the case. The man knows his magic!

I know that Lili was born on Dominaria, which is probably obvious from what I wrote, and I am actively mad at myself for messing it up, and for almost writing Ravnica and Innistrad when attempting to write Dominaria just then (apparently, every time I want to name the plane my brain instead types "plane" into the search bar and hits "I'm feeling lucky").

Spoiler: I find the epithet "Mairsil, called the Pretender" hilarious for some reason, so I will exclusively refer to him as such

Show

I also understood the thing about the veil and the ring. My point was that, because as far as we know the pieces of soul are cut off from each other, only one of them can be the piece manipulating Lili, so if the ring is in fact the ring of Mairsil, called the Pretender, it makes the "she was supposed to be just another brick in the wall link in the veil" theory less likely, though it still fits well enough to be plausible, in which case we have two Lim-Dûls (Lims-Dûl?) manipulating her at the same time or the two chunks of soul have somehow reconnected and reconciled.

Unrelated to all of that, I find the fact that she literally thinks, "the Kenriths are walkers, but they are too young to have been in or maybe even know about WAR, and so they probably won't try to get me tried for war crimes (again) unless, like, they somehow know one of the planeswalkers who really REALLY hates me personally, and is likely to want to hunt me down on minimal evidence of my presence (like Garruk or something). And even then they would need to have a mentor or guardian relationship that would make them likely to talk about how they are doing in school, and honestly, what are the odds of that?"

For an infinite multiverse it really is a small world.

[LaZodiac]

Unrelated to all of that, I find the fact that she literally thinks, "the Kenriths are walkers, but they are too young to have been in or maybe even know about WAR, and so they probably won't try to get me tried for war crimes (again) unless, like, they somehow know one of the planeswalkers who really REALLY hates me personally, and is likely to want to hunt me down on minimal evidence of my presence (like Garruk or something). And even then they would need to have a mentor or guardian relationship that would make them likely to talk about how they are doing in school, and honestly, what are the odds of that?"

For an infinite multiverse it really is a small world.

... god **** I love that. I l love that so much!

I cannot wait for Strixhaven to ask the parents to come in and for Uncle Garruk to go to school.

[Personification]

Another mistake I made that I'm kind of embarrassed about: I flipped the en- and il- prefix meanings. Elas il-Kor has the name that is consistent with someone who has joined the phyrexians. This doesn't necessarily mean she did so willingly or started as an il-, there is precedent (Greven being a major example) for members of the en- tribes to change their prefix to il- after joining the phyrexians, but my commentary on the name in my original post is still wrong. (I do actually like it better this way, because it keeps the naming convention consistent, I honestly don't know why I got it mixed up I had JUST read the wiki article).