Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spikes

[IthilanorStPete]

I care about Tibalt getting compleated only so far as "Tibalt is a perfect little guy to beat up" character wise. He's just a guy! He kidnapped Chandra's mom and tied her to a chair and, without freeing herself from said chair or ropes, she beat him in a fist fight. He's a Loser and it's hilarious, and it'll be sad to see him go.

What story was this in? I need to read it yesterday, that sounds hilarious.

[LaZodiac]

What story was this in? I need to read it yesterday, that sounds hilarious.

The most recent issue of the Boom! Studios MTG comic. I believe it's #18?

I've got a link of one of the pages here by the way.

ALSO, an important note: None of the Boom! Studios comics are canon... unless the main story is like "naw I like the vibe" and takes it for the main canon. Just a heads up to us starving Vorthosian folk.

[Emmerlaus]

Fine, I admit I dont know eenough about MTG lore to decide which planeswalker should have being compleated instead of Ajani...

I think Nahiri could have being fun? Make her compleated then make her rage war against innistrad or at least force Sorin out of Innistrad if he want to survive, forced to flee and become a stray dog or something? Im curious about your opinion about compleated Nahiri

Also, I just readed Ral's lore and I dont see how people were frustrated over that ending? What part was frustrating?

[LaZodiac]

Fine, I admit I dont know eenough about MTG lore to decide which planeswalker should have being compleated instead of Ajani...

I think Nahiri could have being fun? Make her compleated then make her rage war against innistrad or at least force Sorin out of Innistrad if he want to survive, forced to flee and become a stray dog or something? Im curious about your opinion about compleated Nahiri

Also, I just readed Ral's lore and I dont see how people were frustrated over that ending? What part was frustrating?

Hey, not trying to beat you up here. We're just discussin' stuff, it's cool.

Due to the ties Nahiri has with Sorin that'd cause basically the exact same ****storm of weirdo fans exploding as well. Suffice to say the two are basically untouchable in any realm that specifically has both of them involved- and even then, it can be a risk. Also, she's changed focuses to helping Zendikar out- as far as she cares Innistrad's done with. She had her vengeance. That said, she'd be a fascinating choice!

People really disliked the War of the Spark Aftermath novel because it had some pretty clunky writing, broke up Chandra and Nissa as a potential thing, and showed the rocky waters of Jace and Vraska's relationship, both things that people in the fandom were really into. Ral and Tomik get some of that backlash- the entire side plot with Teysa trying to get him to flip sides that people who can't read think might work, and the fact that Ral Zarek, our first out and proud gay planeswalker... gets his face ****ing turbo beat by Tezzeret in a really graphic display. He ends the series hospitalized, with most of his hair gone, and with Tomik torn between work and home. People at the time felt this, plus the Chandra/Nissa stuff having clunky writing that diminished Chandra's attraction to women, made people think the book was trying to anti-gay the series up. Showing queer folk in excessively negative situations and what not.

Honestly kinda unhinged thinking, but understandable at the time. I cried and got super emotional when it was clear Chandra and Nissa weren't getting together, and I bitterly laughed at the stupid as **** "decidedly male" line, so I get why people were feeling that way.

[Emmerlaus]

Well to be fair, any popular planeswalker would have fans exploding with rage or cut deeply with sadness. Ajani was popular too!

I wonder if it would be interesting Tibalt figured out HOW to not be compleated and holds up this as ranson for other Planeswalker to get something that he wants. That could be a thing he do that fit his character lol!

Hummm... I wonder if there is something that could reverse a compleated transformation though. Something that affect only planeswalker because of their sparks or something.

I think personnaly, it would have being as devastating in a story for Jiang Yanggu to sense he was about to become compleated, transfer his spark to his dog Mowu who is devastated by the transformation. I dont know the lore of those two but yeah, that would have being some fascinating drama

[LaZodiac]

We don't really have much for Jiang Yanggu, sadly. He and the other chinese planeswalker are from a China inspired plane, and are themselves based on Chinese mythology... and we are not told anything about it. All we know is that his incredibly good pupper is a creature of stone, not a flesh and blood dog, thus his ability to come along the planes with him. He's more like a DND style statue animal item than a true animal companion.

They could pull the spark transfer thing though, that'd be neat- dog planeswalker! Alone and sad dog! How sad! Becomes friends with Karn since they share the same sorta story.

[Emmerlaus]

We don't really have much for Jiang Yanggu, sadly. He and the other chinese planeswalker are from a China inspired plane, and are themselves based on Chinese mythology... and we are not told anything about it. All we know is that his incredibly good pupper is a creature of stone, not a flesh and blood dog, thus his ability to come along the planes with him. He's more like a DND style statue animal item than a true animal companion.

They could pull the spark transfer thing though, that'd be neat- dog planeswalker! Alone and sad dog! How sad! Becomes friends with Karn since they share the same sorta story.

... Mowu is a stone pupper?! OMG it woiuld be so easy to make a legendary Gargoyle Dog now!

Always wanted a legendary gargoyle creature to be honest LOL

But maybe Mowu wouldn't be that sad, he would gain the feeling Jiang Yangggu's spark is hidden within him and that he must guard "him" (the spark) at all cost. It would feel like a symbiosis.

Beside, everyone seem to want China's money. Pushing this would be a selling point in some ways, especially if they can restaure Jiang Yanggu at some point lol

[Personification]

LaZodiac: Your points on Tibalt are fair. He's honestly up in the air for me but I also don't think most readers care about him either way. As for Ashiok, unless you are referencing something else or this is a typo, I think we interpreted "A Garden of Flesh" differently. I'm 99% sure that it was Elesh Norn's nightmare in which her beautiful perfect Flesh Garden gets ruined by one stupid human who is Too Angry to Die (again). Ashiok learned about the Phyrexians from Elspeth, and basically went over because them always wanted to know what nightmares have nightmares about (apparently, Elspeth is MTG's Doctor, which... tracks) and at this point Norn is aware of them, but I don't expect anything to be able to be done about it because Ashiok doesn't really get dealt with. They may be too nightmare to be compleated at this point (I bet the same is true for Braids, who is at this point just Ashiok who hasn't switched to decaf). I'll cede your point on Nissa, but I think it would be a tough line to walk, and they might not do it for fear of messing up. If Nissa gets compleated, I will take that as a sign that Chandra will fix her in a "we know you're in there somewhere" fight and GruulFriends will finally happen. If they don't I'm not confident it won't feel like the bury your gays trope. Anyway, Nissa is barely Black, and while I didn't state it the real thesis I was getting at is that the nature of Black mana alignment makes getting Compleated much less likely, because paranoia and self-reliance make it hard to get stuck in a place helping and get captured. In fact, the Phyrexians as a whole aren't super Black, which is why I really like that Elesh Norn won the Praetor War.

Spoiler: What follows is basically the accidental first draft of an essay I've been meaning to write about Phyrexia nad MTG color theory

Show

The originals were Black because Yawgmoth was, but while it makes sense for a Black-aligned being to create Phyrexians, the color doesn't suit them as entities, and it actually hurts them. Original Phyrexia was like the Daleks, (the comparison, and comparing Davros to Yawgmoth, are actually eerily accurate) they followed the leader because he was the creator, demonstrably powerful, and hardcoded into their heads as a being worthy of worship, but other than that they hated literally everyone else who wasn't them, including each other, and they would stab each other in the back to advance their own goal, potentially to the detriment of Phyrexia as a whole. They had little to no interest in Phyrexianizing/Dalekizing other beings (though in both cases they had the capability) and only did so for tactical reasons out of necessity and/or to create spies, because although they saw themselves as perfect, they had little interest in sharing that perfection with imperfect beings that could just as easily be destroyed. Sure, Yawgmoth would have loved to see the universe compleated under him, but his servants were just as quick to destroy it, and each other, as to actively alter it. This is all very mono-Black, and it creates an antagonist that is a massive threat but still very liable to destroy itself through infighting. At the end of the day, Black isn't built to sustain a society, and Phyrexia was probably always doomed to eat itself. New Phyrexia, on the other hand, is much closer to the Cybermen or the Borg (and not just in aesthetic). They are proselytizing Phyrexians, and would love to share with you their Gifts. Elesh Norn is not an impersonal, selfish God like Yawgmoth, but a kind, merciful Mother of Machines, who only wants to make you Perfect. This is all very White philosophically, even though it is also very evil and a direct offshoot of Yawgmoth's teachings. Individually, a Cyberman is no match for a Dalek (I have no idea of the relative strengths of Old and New Phyrexians), but as a collective the Cybermen are arguably scarier, because they are a Grey Goo that talks. It is also important to note that, despite their differences, the two styles of villains appear very similar, but when balanced for individual strength the White one will always be better at the task of multiversal domination (Teamwork really does make the Dream-Garden-of-Flesh-That-Has-No-Mouth-But-Must-Scream-Work). Similarly, this also informs Urabrask being the Heretic Praetor, because Red, the color of not just personal freedom but general freedom, is basically incompatible with the ideals of Phyrexia, especially the White-Aligned New Phyrexia. White is the color of the hive mind, and is therefore the ideal color of Phyexia. Blue will strive for perfection, and so with a compleated mind will be totally devoted to, as Jin-Gitaxias puts it, the process of creating the perfect Phyrexia. Black, especially when twisted by the glistening oil, respects the hierarchy of Phyrexia, seeing the structure itself as important to it (and therefore worthy of defending) and its subservience to those above as a means of improving its place in that hierarchy. It will scheme and plot, sometimes to the detriment of the greater Phyrexia, to maintain and improve its place in that hierarchy (there's a reason they call her "The Whispering One"), but at the end of the day it does so in service to the system. Green is similar. The beastial side of Green (again, twisted in POV by the oil) will respect that it is lower on the food chain than other Phyrexians and that non-Phyrexians are at the bottom, and the spiritual side will see compleation as both its destiny and, eventually, the destiny of the multiverse. Red, though, cannot rationalize it all in any meaningful way. Phyrexia is perfection, and there is no mono-Red worldview that could ever see perfection in a multiverse devoid of choice, emotion, and diversity, even with the oil's influence. This is only heightened by the fact that Elesh Norn controls the wider society of New Phyrexia, as this incompatability is centered on the crux of Red's conflict with White. Xantcha was an old Phyrexian, but she was accidentally given free will and turned against Yawgmoth. Her card is RB because red is the color of free will.

TL;DR Phyrexia (especially NP) is more W than B in style, and R is philosophically incompatible with Phyrexia while all other colors can coexist with it at least somewhat.

Meanwhile, non-compleated mono-B creatures/planeswalkers are the most likely to nope out before it's too late, as they tend towards high rates of self-preservation and low rates of things they are willing to lose it all for.

Angrath (who I did totally forget) is actually a great exception, as he is a "my family counts as me for the purposes of selfishness" style B character (as is Liliana, but the reasons her compleation doesn't make sense both in and out of universe are a topic for another accidental essay) and his daughters give him both the incentive to join the New New Coalition (AKA the Gate Gatewatch Watch) and the kind of 5-minute tragic characterization that makes cop shows tell you who's retiring tomorrow.

Emmerlaus: LaZodiac basically explained it, but the issue isn't popularity, it is representation and (intentional or not) implication. WotC lost a lot of goodwill over WAR, and while they may be building it back up slowly, compleating Ral, the only canonically married gay 'Walker I'm aware of in addition to being super popular and fairly non-Phyrexian in philosophy, would do a lot to hurt that unless, and even if, it was executed with perfect tact (something hard to do when you get a tenth of a book for a trilogy length plot). To that point, I'm actually pretty upset about Ajani and Jaya, and on a meta-level. Tamiyo worked so well because it happened at the end of a (fairly) well-paced story, was properly set up, and was given the space on the page to breathe. Ajani, though somewhat foreshadowed, happened in the middle of a story that had no time to give anyone the space they needed, so we got a paragraph of "Oh no!" then suddenly he's gone, Jaya's dead, and nobody has time to grieve because we are already seventeen point five time increments behind schedule. When Tamiyo died, there was a poignant tragedy in seeing into her head as her worldview was warped, so she could keep learning, spreading knowledge, and supporting her family, but the knowledge was of her new Phyrexian family. We didn't really get that seen with Ajani, even though it would have been similar, and it made the moment cheaper. Neither character resolution felt earned by the story, and I just felt betrayed. When Tamiyo got turned, I was sad because they hurt Tamiyo, and they hurt Nashi. When Ajani got turned, I was sad because they hurt the story and the Vorthos trust. Anger at a villain is not the same as anger at a writer.

On a lighter (or at least differently dark) note, this did lead to an interesting observation that the 'Walkers most like to get themselves captured, being W aligned as they go for the Greater Good, are also probably the easiest to assimilate to Phyrexia. Nahiri, ball of xenophobic rage that she is, might be the exception, though if the oil can turn her Kor supremacism into Phyrexian supremacism she could see use post-compleation as a not-very-tactical nuke (though LaZodiac's point on the unlikelihood of her being involved stands). Sorin, who is much more like his protegee than he would ever admit, is also an exception for reasons outlined in my initial post. That said, can you imagine Gideon if he were made to decide that his squad included every Phyrexian ever?

A final (I mean it this time) tangent: I forgot to mention a few B aligned walkers (other than Angrath) in my initiol list. Tezzeret is immune to the oil, but his life is always somewhat at risk as the Eternal Starscream. Dihada is only barely a character again, and I honestly think that her lack of mattering at all takes her out on a Doylist level, but she has also apparently cut a deal with them and has a history of making it out of deals OK. Jared Carthalion is in the same boat on the mattering scale, is only B by the barest technicality (so if he does get hit it doesn't count) and is too 90s to let himself get taken by a bunch of oily punks. Grist is bugs. Bugs no like oil, so Grist no like oil. If some bugs gets oily, Grist just not be those Bugs. Grist met flea-house man in buggy plane while searching for bugs to be more bugs in non-cannon work. If flea-house man oily now, Grist sad. When Grist sad, Grist be more bugs until Grist enough bugs to end sadness. Grist will come for oil people and end them, because all is bug food, and grist is bugs. Grist avenge flea-house man and meeting-place of blinking moths, which is oily now. Oil lady say all be oil. Oil lady wrong. All will be Bug. All will be Grist.

(Today I learned that Grist appears in the Ajani Goldmane comics.)

[LaZodiac]

LaZodiac: Your points on Tibalt are fair. He's honestly up in the air for me but I also don't think most readers care about him either way. As for Ashiok, unless you are referencing something else or this is a typo, I think we interpreted "A Garden of Flesh" differently. I'm 99% sure that it was Elesh Norn's nightmare in which her beautiful perfect Flesh Garden gets ruined by one stupid human who is Too Angry to Die (again). Ashiok learned about the Phyrexians from Elspeth, and basically went over because them always wanted to know what nightmares have nightmares about (apparently, Elspeth is MTG's Doctor, which... tracks) and at this point Norn is aware of them, but I don't expect anything to be able to be done about it because Ashiok doesn't really get dealt with. They may be too nightmare to be compleated at this point (I bet the same is true for Braids, who is at this point just Ashiok who hasn't switched to decaf). I'll cede your point on Nissa, but I think it would be a tough line to walk, and they might not do it for fear of messing up. If Nissa gets compleated, I will take that as a sign that Chandra will fix her in a "we know you're in there somewhere" fight and GruulFriends will finally happen. If they don't I'm not confident it won't feel like the bury your gays trope. Anyway, Nissa is barely Black, and while I didn't state it the real thesis I was getting at is that the nature of Black mana alignment makes getting Compleated much less likely, because paranoia and self-reliance make it hard to get stuck in a place helping and get captured. In fact, the Phyrexians as a whole aren't super Black, which is why I really like that Elesh Norn won the Praetor War.

Spoiler: What follows is basically the accidental first draft of an essay I've been meaning to write about Phyrexia nad MTG color theory

Show

The originals were Black because Yawgmoth was, but while it makes sense for a Black-aligned being to create Phyrexians, the color doesn't suit them as entities, and it actually hurts them. Original Phyrexia was like the Daleks, (the comparison, and comparing Davros to Yawgmoth, are actually eerily accurate) they followed the leader because he was the creator, demonstrably powerful, and hardcoded into their heads as a being worthy of worship, but other than that they hated literally everyone else who wasn't them, including each other, and they would stab each other in the back to advance their own goal, potentially to the detriment of Phyrexia as a whole. They had little to no interest in Phyrexianizing/Dalekizing other beings (though in both cases they had the capability) and only did so for tactical reasons out of necessity and/or to create spies, because although they saw themselves as perfect, they had little interest in sharing that perfection with imperfect beings that could just as easily be destroyed. Sure, Yawgmoth would have loved to see the universe compleated under him, but his servants were just as quick to destroy it, and each other, as to actively alter it. This is all very mono-Black, and it creates an antagonist that is a massive threat but still very liable to destroy itself through infighting. At the end of the day, Black isn't built to sustain a society, and Phyrexia was probably always doomed to eat itself. New Phyrexia, on the other hand, is much closer to the Cybermen or the Borg (and not just in aesthetic). They are proselytizing Phyrexians, and would love to share with you their Gifts. Elesh Norn is not an impersonal, selfish God like Yawgmoth, but a kind, merciful Mother of Machines, who only wants to make you Perfect. This is all very White philosophically, even though it is also very evil and a direct offshoot of Yawgmoth's teachings. Individually, a Cyberman is no match for a Dalek (I have no idea of the relative strengths of Old and New Phyrexians), but as a collective the Cybermen are arguably scarier, because they are a Grey Goo that talks. It is also important to note that, despite their differences, the two styles of villains appear very similar, but when balanced for individual strength the White one will always be better at the task of multiversal domination (Teamwork really does make the Dream-Garden-of-Flesh-That-Has-No-Mouth-But-Must-Scream-Work). Similarly, this also informs Urabrask being the Heretic Praetor, because Red, the color of not just personal freedom but general freedom, is basically incompatible with the ideals of Phyrexia, especially the White-Aligned New Phyrexia. White is the color of the hive mind, and is therefore the ideal color of Phyexia. Blue will strive for perfection, and so with a compleated mind will be totally devoted to, as Jin-Gitaxias puts it, the process of creating the perfect Phyrexia. Black, especially when twisted by the glistening oil, respects the hierarchy of Phyrexia, seeing the structure itself as important to it (and therefore worthy of defending) and its subservience to those above as a means of improving its place in that hierarchy. It will scheme and plot, sometimes to the detriment of the greater Phyrexia, to maintain and improve its place in that hierarchy (there's a reason they call her "The Whispering One"), but at the end of the day it does so in service to the system. Green is similar. The beastial side of Green (again, twisted in POV by the oil) will respect that it is lower on the food chain than other Phyrexians and that non-Phyrexians are at the bottom, and the spiritual side will see compleation as both its destiny and, eventually, the destiny of the multiverse. Red, though, cannot rationalize it all in any meaningful way. Phyrexia is perfection, and there is no mono-Red worldview that could ever see perfection in a multiverse devoid of choice, emotion, and diversity, even with the oil's influence. This is only heightened by the fact that Elesh Norn controls the wider society of New Phyrexia, as this incompatability is centered on the crux of Red's conflict with White. Xantcha was an old Phyrexian, but she was accidentally given free will and turned against Yawgmoth. Her card is RB because red is the color of free will.

TL;DR Phyrexia (especially NP) is more W than B in style, and R is philosophically incompatible with Phyrexia while all other colors can coexist with it at least somewhat.

Meanwhile, non-compleated mono-B creatures/planeswalkers are the most likely to nope out before it's too late, as they tend towards high rates of self-preservation and low rates of things they are willing to lose it all for.

Angrath (who I did totally forget) is actually a great exception, as he is a "my family counts as me for the purposes of selfishness" style B character (as is Liliana, but the reasons her compleation doesn't make sense both in and out of universe are a topic for another accidental essay) and his daughters give him both the incentive to join the New New Coalition (AKA the Gate Gatewatch Watch) and the kind of 5-minute tragic characterization that makes cop shows tell you who's retiring tomorrow.

Emmerlaus: LaZodiac basically explained it, but the issue isn't popularity, it is representation and (intentional or not) implication. WotC lost a lot of goodwill over WAR, and while they may be building it back up slowly, compleating Ral, the only canonically married gay 'Walker I'm aware of in addition to being super popular and fairly non-Phyrexian in philosophy, would do a lot to hurt that unless, and even if, it was executed with perfect tact (something hard to do when you get a tenth of a book for a trilogy length plot). To that point, I'm actually pretty upset about Ajani and Jaya, and on a meta-level. Tamiyo worked so well because it happened at the end of a (fairly) well-paced story, was properly set up, and was given the space on the page to breathe. Ajani, though somewhat foreshadowed, happened in the middle of a story that had no time to give anyone the space they needed, so we got a paragraph of "Oh no!" then suddenly he's gone, Jaya's dead, and nobody has time to grieve because we are already seventeen point five time increments behind schedule. When Tamiyo died, there was a poignant tragedy in seeing into her head as her worldview was warped, so she could keep learning, spreading knowledge, and supporting her family, but the knowledge was of her new Phyrexian family. We didn't really get that seen with Ajani, even though it would have been similar, and it made the moment cheaper. Neither character resolution felt earned by the story, and I just felt betrayed. When Tamiyo got turned, I was sad because they hurt Tamiyo, and they hurt Nashi. When Ajani got turned, I was sad because they hurt the story and the Vorthos trust. Anger at a villain is not the same as anger at a writer.

On a lighter (or at least differently dark) note, this did lead to an interesting observation that the 'Walkers most like to get themselves captured, being W aligned as they go for the Greater Good, are also probably the easiest to assimilate to Phyrexia. Nahiri, ball of xenophobic rage that she is, might be the exception, though if the oil can turn her Kor supremacism into Phyrexian supremacism she could see use post-compleation as a not-very-tactical nuke (though LaZodiac's point on the unlikelihood of her being involved stands). Sorin, who is much more like his protegee than he would ever admit, is also an exception for reasons outlined in my initial post. That said, can you imagine Gideon if he were made to decide that his squad included every Phyrexian ever?

A final (I mean it this time) tangent: I forgot to mention a few B aligned walkers (other than Angrath) in my initiol list. Tezzeret is immune to the oil, but his life is always somewhat at risk as the Eternal Starscream. Dihada is only barely a character again, and I honestly think that her lack of mattering at all takes her out on a Doylist level, but she has also apparently cut a deal with them and has a history of making it out of deals OK. Jared Carthalion is in the same boat on the mattering scale, is only B by the barest technicality (so if he does get hit it doesn't count) and is too 90s to let himself get taken by a bunch of oily punks. Grist is bugs. Bugs no like oil, so Grist no like oil. If some bugs gets oily, Grist just not be those Bugs. Grist met flea-house man in buggy plane while searching for bugs to be more bugs in non-cannon work. If flea-house man oily now, Grist sad. When Grist sad, Grist be more bugs until Grist enough bugs to end sadness. Grist will come for oil people and end them, because all is bug food, and grist is bugs. Grist avenge flea-house man and meeting-place of blinking moths, which is oily now. Oil lady say all be oil. Oil lady wrong. All will be Bug. All will be Grist.

(Today I learned that Grist appears in the Ajani Goldmane comics.)

The implication I gathered from Garden of Flesh was that Ashiok caused Elesh Norn's nightmare, and while this has made her put Elspeth as a 200% priority target kill on sight immediately, I imagine it put Ashiok on her ****list too, is all.

Don't have much to say about your essay, beyond "it's 100% correct". Phyrexia brings out the worst in every colour, which makes Black mana folk the best at avoiding it... and makes white mana Phyrexian's better Phyrexians than the OGs by far. Just listen to Ajani's voice clips.

Gideon getting compleated would be ****ing horrifying, yeah. Let's not even think about what they'd do with "guy who can make people he loves and himself literally invincible".

Tezz is immune, yeah. Dihada IS WORKING with the Phyrexians, but as you said just Isn't A Character (will probably get comics honestly).

Holy **** Grist shows up in Seanan McGuise's Ajani comic? That owns.

[Androgeus]

Obviously the next to be compleated should be The Unluckiest Planeswalker.

[Personification]

The implication I gathered from Garden of Flesh was that Ashiok caused Elesh Norn's nightmare, and while this has made her put Elspeth as a 200% priority target kill on sight immediately, I imagine it put Ashiok on her ****list too, is all.

Don't have much to say about your essay, beyond "it's 100% correct". Phyrexia brings out the worst in every colour, which makes Black mana folk the best at avoiding it... and makes white mana Phyrexian's better Phyrexians than the OGs by far. Just listen to Ajani's voice clips.

Gideon getting compleated would be ****ing horrifying, yeah. Let's not even think about what they'd do with "guy who can make people he loves and himself literally invincible".

Tezz is immune, yeah. Dihada IS WORKING with the Phyrexians, but as you said just Isn't A Character (will probably get comics honestly).

Holy **** Grist shows up in Seanan McGuise's Ajani comic? That owns.

I think we got confused by a typo where you said Elspeth instead of Elesh Norn in your original post. Also, Gideon notably CANNOT make his allies invincible except for exactly once with Liliana. That's his whole fatal flaw and character arc, he's the indestructible man with chronic hero syndrome, but he can't save everyone, so he's always the one who survives with the guilt (I just realized that this makes him a really good dark Superman expy).

Obviously the next to be compleated should be The Unluckiest Planeswalker.

Nah, his whole schtick is that he just barely survives to keep having a miserable life. He is much more likely to get stuck in Phyrexia, tortured forever, but ultimately somehow immune to Phyresis.

[LaZodiac]

I think we got confused by a typo where you said Elspeth instead of Elesh Norn in your original post. Also, Gideon notably CANNOT make his allies invincible except for exactly once with Liliana. That's his whole fatal flaw and character arc, he's the indestructible man with chronic hero syndrome, but he can't save everyone, so he's always the one who survives with the guilt (I just realized that this makes him a really good dark Superman expy).



Nah, his whole schtick is that he just barely survives to keep having a miserable life. He is much more likely to get stuck in Phyrexia, tortured forever, but ultimately somehow immune to Phyresis.

Ah, typo, my bad. Sorry!

Also... while that's all true, consider how Phyrexia would warp his mind. They'd show him the power of unity, of togetherness- about how his guilt can be assuaged through assisting the Great Work. For Gideon, sacrificing himself to save Liliana was the absolution he was seeking- throwing forward a good light for someone who needed it. How could the black oil twist this mentality? I think it would make him able to share it- not as strong of course, the conviction of his heart has been tainted, but still.

[Personification]

Ah, typo, my bad. Sorry!

Also... while that's all true, consider how Phyrexia would warp his mind. They'd show him the power of unity, of togetherness- about how his guilt can be assuaged through assisting the Great Work. For Gideon, sacrificing himself to save Liliana was the absolution he was seeking- throwing forward a good light for someone who needed it. How could the black oil twist this mentality? I think it would make him able to share it- not as strong of course, the conviction of his heart has been tainted, but still.

That was my point, he'd be a terrifying and powerful general. The reason White Phyrexians are so terrifying is that they have access to the power of friendship, though they don't all necessarily use it. Elesh Norn herself is too broad-minded to really care for her agents individually, at some level she sees many as disposable in service to the Great Work, but Gideon would both be a terrifying warrior and an actually good and caring leader to the other Phyrexians, improving their loyalty and cohesion and stopping the Praetors from deviating to the grander vision. A Phyrexian Gideon would actually make Phyrexia more powerful by making it less inwardly evil, and therefore less self-destructive, while still being totally loyal to the outward-facing evil cause of multiversal domination. I actually think the oil would strengthen, not weaken, his "pure of heart and truly loyal" power base, as it would give him TRUE conviction, free from the tiny human doubts that infected even his, most hubris addled mind. I also think it would actually magnify his guilt, not absolve it, because he would be connected to literally every Phyrexian, and every dead Phyrexian would be one he had failed to save, and every dead Fleshling would be one he had failed to save with the gift of compleation. He would be infinitely tortured, and it would be beautifully ironic on so many levels.

That said, the point I was making was more of a nitpick that he can't really practically extend his aura, at least not much or for very long, and that making others indestructible wouldn't be the scary part. Sure, the guy next to him might also be unkillable, but the guy next to him is probably not much more threatening than the guy who isn't. He himself though, would wade through multiple hells alone to get to someone threatening his family, and he'd survive the experience, too.

Anyway, all of this is moot because Gideon genuinely got a perfect ending to an arc (even if the book was meh) and I'd honestly be really upset if they tried to bring him back for a cheap gut punch.

[Dienekes]

All this talk about my boy Gids is reminding me of my desire to just see an uncomplicated good mono-white planeswalker/god/angel that doesn't die, or turn evil, or whatever. Doesn't have to be a protagonist of a series or anything. Just someone I can go "Yeah, I like them. They're nice." When they show up.

I just realized I want Mr. Rogers the planeswalker.

[enderlord99]

All this talk about my boy Gids is reminding me of my desire to just see an uncomplicated mono-white planeswalker/god/angel that doesn't die, or turn evil, or whatever

Teyo fits, at least so far.

[Fable Wright]

All this talk about my boy Gids is reminding me of my desire to just see an uncomplicated mono-white planeswalker/god/angel that doesn't die, or turn evil, or whatever. Doesn't have to be a protagonist of a series or anything. Just someone I can go "Yeah, I like them. They're nice." When they show up.

I just realized I want Mr. Rogers the planeswalker.

The problem is that such a character is perfect for the narrative role of "well we kill them now so the audience KNOWS it's serious!"

I share in your frustration, but the MTG misery mill is too strong to let such a character exist for prolonged periods of time. The only people immune to getting screwed over appear to be Jace and Chandra... and to be 100% honest I'm not sure how long Chandra has left.

Jace, of course, has Darksteel Plot Armor. Nothing truly bad will ever happen to him.

[Dienekes]

Teyo fits, at least so far.

Oh hey, I forgot about Shield-Boy. Here's hoping he pops up some point to be nice and make a shield.

The problem is that such a character is perfect for the narrative role of "well we kill them now so the audience KNOWS it's serious!"

I share in your frustration, but the MTG misery mill is too strong to let such a character exist for prolonged periods of time. The only people immune to getting screwed over appear to be Jace and Chandra... and to be 100% honest I'm not sure how long Chandra has left.

Jace, of course, has Darksteel Plot Armor. Nothing truly bad will ever happen to him.

Yeah, and I want them to stop doing that. Or just, give me one where it doesn't happen. Serra died, Gids died, Avacyn and Oketra went evil and died. Elspeth died, though, now she's got better. We'll see on that one.

They keep killing off or corrupting characters I like, and I've not too keen on their obvious replacements. Not the white example, but, I don't really care that Chandra was clearly meant to replace Jaya. Jaya was way more fun.

Hell, even my dear Squee lost his immortality card.

[Personification]

All this talk about my boy Gids is reminding me of my desire to just see an uncomplicated good mono-white planeswalker/god/angel that doesn't die, or turn evil, or whatever. Doesn't have to be a protagonist of a series or anything. Just someone I can go "Yeah, I like them. They're nice." When they show up.

I just realized I want Mr. Rogers the planeswalker.

We had a Mister Rogers planeswalker, it was Ajani.
Honestly, though, modern-day Teferi works for that pretty well, too. He was a stay at home dad for decades before getting back in the game around WAR, and he's still mostly just their to make puns and tea. That said, neither is mono-White (Ajani was White-core) and the real issue isn't the personality but the ending. It's honestly just that White is the most likely to sacrifice themself for a cause, so White characters tend to end with tragic sacrifices. Plus, Magic is a game about fighting, so things end up going poorly for people.

The problem is that such a character is perfect for the narrative role of "well we kill them now so the audience KNOWS it's serious!"

I share in your frustration, but the MTG misery mill is too strong to let such a character exist for prolonged periods of time. The only people immune to getting screwed over appear to be Jace and Chandra... and to be 100% honest I'm not sure how long Chandra has left.

Jace, of course, has Darksteel Plot Armor. Nothing truly bad will ever happen to him.

Neither Jace nor Chandra is immune to that at all. They both have SUPER dark backstories, and bad stuff happens to them all of the time. Also, they really haven't had more plot armor than all of the others, they're just more forward facing so they have been memed. As popular characters, it's true that they are unlikely to die soon, but I doubt they're going to kill off anyone else in the original WUBRG Gatewatch soon anyway, and there are plenty of other 'Walkers who I would be equally shocked at the sudden demise of.

Plus, Chandra's going through a tough breakup right now and Jace, who is out of Standard for the first time since the character was introduced (a fact that both supports and undercuts my point) hasn't been seen since he died in the (non-canon) BOOM! comics. For all we know, next we see of Jace will be his ghost.

[Fable Wright]

Neither Jace nor Chandra is immune to that at all. They both have SUPER dark backstories, and bad stuff happens to them all of the time.

Uh huh. Jace has not, to my knowledge, ever been crippled, compleated, forced to lose his spark, killed, turned insane, or forced to face, like, actual consequences for the Eldrazi incident, or being the most irresponsible being in the world to be the living Guildpact, or subjecting readers to a depressing number of really ****ty romance arcs.

Nor has Chandra, but, you know, they didn't kill Avacyn to save Chandra's life.

Compare Garruk (insane), Gideon (dead), Venser (dead and spark removed), Tezzeret (insane), Tamiyo (compleated), Ajani (compleated), Elspeth (dead), Koth (was presumed dead during Scars of Mirrodin when I played, never been seen again), Sarkhan Vol (insane).

Bear in mind that my formative years of Magic were Shards of Alara through Zendikar. My favorite planeswalkers when I played actively were Garruk Wildspeaker, followed by Sorin Markov, Elspeth Tirel, Venser the Sojourner, and Liliana Vess. The only planeswalkers introduced from that time who have not been subjected to Real Bad Stuff are Jace, Chandra, Nissa (who was introduced to me as an elf supremacist who unleashed the Eldrazi to the multiverse and I do not forgive her), Karn, and Liliana. Sorin had to kill Avacyn. Out of the fifteen planeswalkers I really cared about, 10 got unbelievably screwed over. Jace is not one of them. And I guess the sixteenth is Tibalt for whom I have no strong feelings one way or the other.

Liliana's going to get bodyjacked by Lim-Dul, so I'm discounting her from too much in the way of plot armor. Karn can absolutely get merc'd. Nissa deserves whatever happens to her and can be replaced as the face of Greenwalkers at this point, so her plot armor's down. This leaves Jace and Chandra as people who have dodged every consequence thrown at them thus far, and Jace has been on all the promotional material, been in Standard constantly, had Avacyn die to save him, taunted Garruk the Planeswalker Hunter and lived, screwed with Nicol Bolas and lived, became the worst absentee dad of Ravnica in a story with an unforgivably bad 'romance' with a Selesnya girl, and there's no sign that he will ever face consequences for... anything?

Darksteel-grade plot armor.

If I find out that Wizards actually killed him off for real, I will throw a party. 'A temporary amnesia plotline resolved within the same set it was introduced' does not count as bad thing compared to any of the other fifteen.

[LaZodiac]

All this talk about my boy Gids is reminding me of my desire to just see an uncomplicated good mono-white planeswalker/god/angel that doesn't die, or turn evil, or whatever. Doesn't have to be a protagonist of a series or anything. Just someone I can go "Yeah, I like them. They're nice." When they show up.

I just realized I want Mr. Rogers the planeswalker.

I realize he hasn't... done, anything yet, but Basri Ket is right here.

Jace, of course, has Darksteel Plot Armor. Nothing truly bad will ever happen to him.

A very large portion of the entire last major story line was "bad things happening to Jace and Chandra".

EDIT: Jace suffered for god knows how long on Useless Island, with basically nothing to eat, plagued by trauma flashbacks he didn't understand. He's absolutely suffered. And hey, his romance stuff is good! To each their own of course.

Chandra too. She's had to deal with someone she really, truly loved telling her they can't be together, went on a revenge quest that ended with zero satisfaction, and is gonna learn that her second mom is dead, among other things. Chandra's been through the ringer too.

Tezzeret isn't insane, he's doin' pretty good for himself actually. Elspeth very much isn't dead right now. We've gotten word Koth's actually doing good last we heard, with the last of the Mirran Resistance. Sarkhan Vol literally had an entire story arc of him healing and being better, he's no longer insane anymore, just recovering from it.

Acting like Karn hasn't suffered is... wrong, on so many levels. Nissa suffered a lot during the fight with Emrakul, and has gone through a lot of character growth since she did the big dumb idiot thing she did back then. And I'm pretty sure Liliana is going to win that particular fight.

We had a Mister Rogers planeswalker, it was Ajani.
Honestly, though, modern-day Teferi works for that pretty well, too. He was a stay at home dad for decades before getting back in the game around WAR, and he's still mostly just their to make puns and tea. That said, neither is mono-White (Ajani was White-core) and the real issue isn't the personality but the ending. It's honestly just that White is the most likely to sacrifice themself for a cause, so White characters tend to end with tragic sacrifices. Plus, Magic is a game about fighting, so things end up going poorly for people.

Neither Jace nor Chandra is immune to that at all. They both have SUPER dark backstories, and bad stuff happens to them all of the time. Also, they really haven't had more plot armor than all of the others, they're just more forward facing so they have been memed. As popular characters, it's true that they are unlikely to die soon, but I doubt they're going to kill off anyone else in the original WUBRG Gatewatch soon anyway, and there are plenty of other 'Walkers who I would be equally shocked at the sudden demise of.

Plus, Chandra's going through a tough breakup right now and Jace, who is out of Standard for the first time since the character was introduced (a fact that both supports and undercuts my point) hasn't been seen since he died in the (non-canon) BOOM! comics. For all we know, next we see of Jace will be his ghost.

Yeah, Teferi is here! He's the greatest! Definitely exactly the sorta vibe you're looking for, too.

Chandra's got a girlfriend on Innistrad so there is that an- WAIT WHAT THE **** JACE DIED IN THE COMIC??????????????????????

[Personification]

I realize he hasn't... done, anything yet, but Basri Ket is right here.



A very large portion of the entire last major story line was "bad things happening to Jace and Chandra".

EDIT: Jace suffered for god knows how long on Useless Island, with basically nothing to eat, plagued by trauma flashbacks he didn't understand. He's absolutely suffered. And hey, his romance stuff is good! To each their own of course.

Chandra too. She's had to deal with someone she really, truly loved telling her they can't be together, went on a revenge quest that ended with zero satisfaction, and is gonna learn that her second mom is dead, among other things. Chandra's been through the ringer too.

Tezzeret isn't insane, he's doin' pretty good for himself actually. Elspeth very much isn't dead right now. We've gotten word Koth's actually doing good last we heard, with the last of the Mirran Resistance. Sarkhan Vol literally had an entire story arc of him healing and being better, he's no longer insane anymore, just recovering from it.

Acting like Karn hasn't suffered is... wrong, on so many levels. Nissa suffered a lot during the fight with Emrakul, and has gone through a lot of character growth since she did the big dumb idiot thing she did back then. And I'm pretty sure Liliana is going to win that particular fight.



Yeah, Teferi is here! He's the greatest! Definitely exactly the sorta vibe you're looking for, too.

Chandra's got a girlfriend on Innistrad so there is that an- WAIT WHAT THE **** JACE DIED IN THE COMIC??????????????????????

Thanks for backing me up there. Also, a point to be made about plot armor and context is where a character is coming from. Koth was never going to be OK because Koth is from a Borg cube, and we all knew that. Plus, the tragic backstory I was referring to was "bullied a ton as a child, then gets betrayed by a father figure but he doesn't even know any of that because he woke up in the middle of a big city as a teenager with no home and no memory, just lots of questions and unresolved trauma (and yes, Jace's childhood trauma does still affect him, despite him not remembering it; apparently, it is clear to the extent that Dovin felt comfortable just calling out that he was bullied as a child (before he remembered being one).

Spoiler: Comic spoilers

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Also, yeah. Marit Lage got hardcoded to follow Jace, and was going to eat Ravnica, so they went to middle-of-nowhere Amonkhet and had him mind-meld with Liliana to imprint every single zombie with an illusory version of his brain (so that Marit Lage would always think she was surrounded by loyal followers who can't die, and therefore never need to leave, but he had to stay so she couldn't trace his brain back somewhere else.

[Fable Wright]

A very large portion of the entire last major story line was "bad things happening to Jace and Chandra".

EDIT: Jace suffered for god knows how long on Useless Island, with basically nothing to eat, plagued by trauma flashbacks he didn't understand. He's absolutely suffered. And hey, his romance stuff is good! To each their own of course.

Chandra too. She's had to deal with someone she really, truly loved telling her they can't be together, went on a revenge quest that ended with zero satisfaction, and is gonna learn that her second mom is dead, among other things. Chandra's been through the ringer too.

Tezzeret isn't insane, he's doin' pretty good for himself actually. Elspeth very much isn't dead right now. We've gotten word Koth's actually doing good last we heard, with the last of the Mirran Resistance. Sarkhan Vol literally had an entire story arc of him healing and being better, he's no longer insane anymore, just recovering from it.

Acting like Karn hasn't suffered is... wrong, on so many levels. Nissa suffered a lot during the fight with Emrakul, and has gone through a lot of character growth since she did the big dumb idiot thing she did back then. And I'm pretty sure Liliana is going to win that particular fight.

I'm not saying that they haven't suffered. That's character drama.

I also acknowledge that yes, after over a decade, Garruk became sane again, and Sarkhan Vol was only driven insane for four years. Tezzeret... admittedly, that's a goof on my part, he just went full evil.

None of Karn, Chandra, Jace, Liliana, and Nissa were mutated by the plot into something that was meaningfully different from their original cards. None of them are now sporting Phyrexian mana costs. To my knowledge, no fan of the characters ever had to open a pack, look at their card, and said "this isn't the character I came to like". Or realized, "I will never open a pack of cards with this character again." Admittedly, Sorin Markov shares that distinction.

With that being said, they very much demonstrated being willing to kill off Elspeth and Koth. In a story, I might worry about them killing or compleating either of those two. I would suffer precisely 0 fears of such occurring to Chandra or Jace.

[Amidus Drexel]

None of Karn, Chandra, Jace, Liliana, and Nissa were mutated by the plot into something that was meaningfully different from their original cards. None of them are now sporting Phyrexian mana costs. To my knowledge, no fan of the characters ever had to open a pack, look at their card, and said "this isn't the character I came to like". Or realized, "I will never open a pack of cards with this character again." Admittedly, Sorin Markov shares that distinction.

That really depends on what you mean by "meaningfully different". While in general I'd say Jace's core personality hasn't changed a ton (hey, it's easy to write "guy who doesn't know much about the situation and is a little unsure if he's doing the right thing"), if we're talking about his original card... When he was working for the Consortium, Jace was a villain (albeit occasionally a reluctant one). I doubt many people are too attached to Jace's original characterization (it was such a long time ago and his transformation was gradual), but he wasn't always the goody-two-shoes poster boy for heroism that people associate with him now.

Nissa's core personality has arguably changed the most, as she's quite a bit more than just "xenophobic elf that caused a huge catastrophe by not listening". Like Jace, I doubt many people were attached to her early characterization, but it's hard to argue that she hasn't changed.

The two immortal characters obviously haven't changed much over such a short timeframe, though Liliana was definitely on the road to improving herself leading up to War of the Spark (I haven't kept up too much since that massive garbage fire).

That really just leaves Chandra, who is definitely the same person she was in her earlier stories. No argument there.

With that being said, they very much demonstrated being willing to kill off Elspeth and Koth. In a story, I might worry about them killing or compleating either of those two. I would suffer precisely 0 fears of such occurring to Chandra or Jace.

I could see wotc killing off Jace. I don't think it's particularly compelling right now, but it certainly could be depending on where they go with the current major story thread (and the fact that it isn't particularly compelling doesn't mean they won't do it - RIP Dack Fayden). I'll agree that Chandra's death doesn't seem particularly likely - she doesn't really have as big of a stake in the New Phyrexia plot yet, and has yet to really suffer from it.

[Dienekes]

Yeah, Teferi is here! He's the greatest! Definitely exactly the sorta vibe you're looking for, too.

I understand this is probably 100% my fault for my very haphazard jumping around reading the lore from when I stopped playing. But I really havent seen much of Teferi. And he has a lot to make up for, since the biggest thing I remember about him is seeing the world was in trouble from the greatest danger in history and deciding “Yeah, that seems like a ‘you’ problem.”

[LaZodiac]

That really depends on what you mean by "meaningfully different". While in general I'd say Jace's core personality hasn't changed a ton (hey, it's easy to write "guy who doesn't know much about the situation and is a little unsure if he's doing the right thing"), if we're talking about his original card... When he was working for the Consortium, Jace was a villain (albeit occasionally a reluctant one). I doubt many people are too attached to Jace's original characterization (it was such a long time ago and his transformation was gradual), but he wasn't always the goody-two-shoes poster boy for heroism that people associate with him now.

Nissa's core personality has arguably changed the most, as she's quite a bit more than just "xenophobic elf that caused a huge catastrophe by not listening". Like Jace, I doubt many people were attached to her early characterization, but it's hard to argue that she hasn't changed.

The two immortal characters obviously haven't changed much over such a short timeframe, though Liliana was definitely on the road to improving herself leading up to War of the Spark (I haven't kept up too much since that massive garbage fire).

That really just leaves Chandra, who is definitely the same person she was in her earlier stories. No argument there.

I could see wotc killing off Jace. I don't think it's particularly compelling right now, but it certainly could be depending on where they go with the current major story thread (and the fact that it isn't particularly compelling doesn't mean they won't do it - RIP Dack Fayden). I'll agree that Chandra's death doesn't seem particularly likely - she doesn't really have as big of a stake in the New Phyrexia plot yet, and has yet to really suffer from it.

The thing about Jace's characterization is that the swarmy, sarcastic ******* blue mage persona... was definitely put on so he could take advantage of it. I've read Agents of Artifice, he might do some morally dubious things and definitely works as an interplanar assassin but he's still a little meowmeow loser nerd who is just trying to put up a brave face to stay strong and also annoy his opponents. His later characterization is him basically just, lowering those defenses.

Chandra's actually changed a fair bit! It's harder to tell but her brashness is a bit more cautious now, and she's a bit more adult. Back in the Purifying Fire she was extremely a bratty teen who accidentally set a forest on fire and was like "oops my bad". Modern Chandra is at the tail end of going from "apologize better for burning the forest down" to "actually don't burn the forest down in the first place". Harder to see character growth, but still there.

I understand this is probably 100% my fault for my very haphazard jumping around reading the lore from when I stopped playing. But I really havent seen much of Teferi. And he has a lot to make up for, since the biggest thing I remember about him is seeing the world was in trouble from the greatest danger in history and deciding “Yeah, that seems like a ‘you’ problem.”

To put it lightly, his entire characterization in modern magic story has been him having spent literal years thinking about that moment and going "holy **** I, and really by extension every single Oldwalker with that mentality, was a massive ****ing monster and I'm going to do my best to make up for that with the copious amount of time I have left."

EDIT: Also funny time dad antics. Teferi's writing properly channels the good comedic aspects of his previous character, but shows he's grown and learned from the centuries of hearing about Teferi, the great and powerful idiot that lost an entire country due to negligence.

[Lord Raziere]

I've only known Teferi from the Time Spiral books, he sacrificed his spark to close a rift, like he was the first one to do that? so he seemed like a good guy at that point.

[LaZodiac]

I've only known Teferi from the Time Spiral books, he sacrificed his spark to close a rift, like he was the first one to do that? so he seemed like a good guy at that point.

That was the start of him doing good, but after the Great Mending everyone started in universe re-evaluating things many oldwalkers had done; in Teferi's case, phasing out all of Zhalfir without their permission because he didn't want to participate in the war against Phyrexia... and then not putting it back. Now it's stuck, he's not powerful enough to bring it back, and the survivors see him as the genuine monster many Oldwalkers were in their hearts.

Many a year of wandering later he met someone who made him realize instead of sulking he should actually work to help people. The best time to plant a tree was yesterday, the second best time is today, as the saying goes. So he's been working on redeeming himself and finding absolution within his heart.

[Dienekes]

To put it lightly, his entire characterization in modern magic story has been him having spent literal years thinking about that moment and going "holy **** I, and really by extension every single Oldwalker with that mentality, was a massive ****ing monster and I'm going to do my best to make up for that with the copious amount of time I have left."

EDIT: Also funny time dad antics. Teferi's writing properly channels the good comedic aspects of his previous character, but shows he's grown and learned from the centuries of hearing about Teferi, the great and powerful idiot that lost an entire country due to negligence.

See that sounds good. I’ll see if my impression holds up when I get to his books, but I can respect this.

Might make him the first blue mage I’ve liked since Barrin decided to try out red mana that one time.

[enderlord99]

My opponent was at 1 life and had a Black Market Connections trigger on the stack... then I conceded simply because I thought it would be funny.

Obviously, I am not a Spike.

[Emmerlaus]

Spoiler: The new Warhammer commander decks

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For the new Warhammer commander decks, only two-three cards are interesting to me. And only one of them truly would have a place in one of my deck. I mean, Vexilus Praetor woudl be so OP in a deck with a planeswalker as a commander but Im sure it going to be like 20$-30$ or more. Its that OP.

The most tempting card for me is Out of the Tombs and even then, it's not a necessity in my Ghen, Arcanium Weaver deck. Sure it would make it a bit faster when I can play it but its also a double-edged sword.

If I had still a Alela, Artful Provocateur deck, I would get The Golden Throne though.