Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spikes

[enderlord99]

I don't like hitting lightly described YouTube links, what's the song?

Johnny by Neil Cicierega. I posted it as a joke because of the title.

[Personification]

Oh my gods, AFR is looking awesome!

They actually made a card out of the ubiquitous 50 ft rope!
They made bards Bards!

[DeTess]

Oh my gods, AFR is looking awesome!

They actually made a card out of the ubiquitous 50 ft rope!
They made bards Bards!

I've been looking through them, and there is a lot if cool stuff in there. I might look into brewing a 'play your opponents stuff' commander deck with Xanathars, and I actually want one of each of the lands, if for no other reason than using them as a DnD one-shot generator.

[LaZodiac]

I, too, am very excited for this set! The flavour words idea is brilliant and I hope this sticks around.

[Emmerlaus]

The Tarrasque is so disappointing though

[LaZodiac]

The Tarrasque is so disappointing though

Tarrasques are, by their nature, inherently disappointing. All they are is some Big Rude Dinosaur who wants to eat the world. Ergo; massive creature that is very hard to remove. It gets across how dangerous it is, AND gets across how hard it is to target with magic. I think that's all it really needed?

[Mystic Muse]

Tarrasques are, by their nature, inherently disappointing. All they are is some Big Rude Dinosaur who wants to eat the world. Ergo; massive creature that is very hard to remove. It gets across how dangerous it is, AND gets across how hard it is to target with magic. I think that's all it really needed?

They're also ridiculouslu difficult to permanently put down, so indestructible, a shuffle in effect or sonething similar would have been appropriate.

[LaZodiac]

They're also ridiculouslu difficult to permanently put down, so indestructible, a shuffle in effect or sonething similar would have been appropriate.

I'll grant that. Giving it some kind of shuffle or "bottom of deck" effect on death would have been a bit more flavourful, but I think they did capture the sheer difficulty of taking it down given it's 10/10 stats and the fact that it fights someone every attack.

[Emmerlaus]

I would have loved the Tarrasque to cost 5GGRR instead, making it Grull colors. And with a shuffle or bottom of library effect when it does. It would have being way more fun this way and EVEN if it had Fading on top of that, it would have being fun at least!

Not its just a boring big beast. Other creatures does the same job with more interesting effects.

Also, the fact they put Ward 10, even as conditionnal as it is, is boring and a worst way to put Hexproof. Unless you have infinite mana, might as well just destroy it with a board wipe.

[Personification]

I'm with LaZodiac on this one, something to show the unkillability would be nice, but the tarrasque was never more than a sack of hit points, attack rolls, and spell resistance. Ward 10 v hexproof is probably because they are phasing out hexproof on creatures and because it at least gives some chance to get rid of it.

[Dienekes]

A big burly creature that has impressive stats for people who don’t know what they’re looking at, but against experienced players is an over-costed, easily exploitable sack of hit points?

Looks like they got the Tarrasque perfect to me.

But regardless, loving the set. From what I’ve seen. The little flavor notes in the text of some cards seems fun.* Framing certain spells as decision points in an adventure gave me a smile.

And the Venture mechanic seems like a fun little game within a game that won’t be over powerful.

Love it all.

*Though I am positive people will complain about it though.

[LaZodiac]

A big burly creature that has impressive stats for people who don’t know what they’re looking at, but against experienced players is an over-costed, easily exploitable sack of hit points?

Looks like they got the Tarrasque perfect to me.

But regardless, loving the set. From what I’ve seen. The little flavor notes in the text of some cards seems fun.* Framing certain spells as decision points in an adventure gave me a smile.

And the Venture mechanic seems like a fun little game within a game that won’t be over powerful.

Love it all.

*Though I am positive people will complain about it though.

Most people seem to be focused on Hating Dungeons For No Reason, as opposed to disliking the cute flavour text stuff.

[Dienekes]

Most people seem to be focused on Hating Dungeons For No Reason, as opposed to disliking the cute flavour text stuff.

Yeah, I can see why people would be annoyed by it. It's another thing that breaks some of the perceived rules of what a command zone and side board is supposed to be. And there are always going to be those folks who have a problem with the new on principle.

Personally though, love it. It looks like exactly the kind of flavorful not all that powerful thing I wished the rest of the game was balanced around.

[Binks]

Also, the fact they put Ward 10, even as conditionnal as it is, is boring and a worst way to put Hexproof. Unless you have infinite mana, might as well just destroy it with a board wipe.

As was mentioned in MR's tumblr when this same thing was asked, there are some actual interesting difference between Ward 10 and Hexproof, even without infinite mana.

Ward 10 is weak to "can't be countered" removal, which is rare and impractical to hit 10 damage with. If it fights something with a couple of points of power you have some options, like Inescapable Blaze or Heated Debate, but nothing gets to 10 un-counterable without spending at least 11 mana that I can see. There's also a few effects that give "can't be countered" to a spell that would allow regular removal to hit it, but those are also rare (4 cards, none of which are that good frankly).

On the flipside, Hexproof is weak to the 7(? did I miss any?) cards that explicitly negate or remove it, of which at least 3 (Arcane Lighthouse, Detection Tower, Glaring Spotlight) are commonly played in commander and many of the others are really good and go well in decks even if you don't expect to encounter Hexproof.

So mechanically they're much the same in a normal duel, but in commander Ward 10 is honestly way harder to deal with right now than Hexproof, which is at least mildly interesting (to me at least :) )

[Amechra]

Most people seem to be focused on Hating Dungeons For No Reason, as opposed to disliking the cute flavour text stuff.

I dislike dungeons because sliding tokens around a small card in a precise way is an accessibility nightmare.

[LaZodiac]

I dislike dungeons because sliding tokens around a small card in a precise way is an accessibility nightmare.

Entirely valid! You're not one of the people I was talking about.

Honestly the token that goes on the dungeon is utterly unnecessary. It's super easy to remember, so if I was gaming with someone who did have those issues I'd be fine with it.

[FireJustice]

Tarrasque is so worse than Ghalta, Primal Hunger or Carnage Tyrant

fightning before defenders? cool.
Ward? ook... it's not hexproof, but ok
haste? ooookay, cute. but at that cost for a 10/10 that doesnt trample

yeah..


come on

also... using the Command Zone for dungeons, seems like a programmer using variables "not in use, just relax" already in the system to save space
instead of creating new ones
why?

[Androgeus]

also... using the Command Zone for dungeons, seems like a programmer using variables "not in use, just relax" already in the system to save space
instead of creating new ones
why?

The command zone is where things that effect the game but aren't really directly intractable go. See emblems, planes, phenomenons, schemes, conspiracies, and vanguards.

[Spore]

Most people seem to be focused on Hating Dungeons For No Reason, as opposed to disliking the cute flavour text stuff.

I mean, if there were more than three?

I think WotC saw Sagas becoming such a hit, and thought to themselves: "What if the counter moved conditionally, and also wasn't counters to not stack too much power onto counter mechanics?" And the basic idea is good, but the (current and probably future) support as well as the choices for dungeons is laughably small.

[LaZodiac]

I mean, if there were more than three?

I think WotC saw Sagas becoming such a hit, and thought to themselves: "What if the counter moved conditionally, and also wasn't counters to not stack too much power onto counter mechanics?" And the basic idea is good, but the (current and probably future) support as well as the choices for dungeons is laughably small.

I don't really believe that. There's a ton of design space for dungeons, mechanical and flavour wise.

[Personification]

I mean, if there were more than three?

I think WotC saw Sagas becoming such a hit, and thought to themselves: "What if the counter moved conditionally, and also wasn't counters to not stack too much power onto counter mechanics?" And the basic idea is good, but the (current and probably future) support as well as the choices for dungeons is laughably small.

While Dungeons feel like Sagas, they actually play in different spaces. Sagas are linear, they cost mana, and they need to go into your deck. They don't provide branching choices and move forward predictably. Whenever you venture into the first room, you have to choose between every Dungeon, considering the choices being made at each step and how long it will take to get through. This is a huge decision point, and with each additional Dungeon the difficulty of that decision increases exponentially. I think in play you will find that even with just three dungeons you will be spoiled for choice, and while the mechanic is naturally fairly parasitic, within the set there is enough support on enough good cards that I expect it to pop up quite often in the next 15 months of standard.

[LansXero]

Dungeons are awfully gimmicky, and I hope they leave them as a one-of attempt and move on .

[noob]

While Dungeons feel like Sagas, they actually play in different spaces. Sagas are linear, they cost mana, and they need to go into your deck. They don't provide branching choices and move forward predictably. Whenever you venture into the first room, you have to choose between every Dungeon, considering the choices being made at each step and how long it will take to get through. This is a huge decision point, and with each additional Dungeon the difficulty of that decision increases exponentially. I think in play you will find that even with just three dungeons you will be spoiled for choice, and while the mechanic is naturally fairly parasitic, within the set there is enough support on enough good cards that I expect it to pop up quite often in the next 15 months of standard.

There is a saga land(that costs the placement of a land instead of mana) which is powerful when you abuse counter removal/transfer.

[Personification]

There is a saga land(that costs the placement of a land instead of mana) which is powerful when you abuse counter removal/transfer.

That doesn't change the fact that Dungeons and Sagas play in different design space and play very differently from each other. There aren't 10s of cards that say "search for a saga and pit it on the battlefield" and most Sagas won't be able to trigger several times per turn, especially not in limited.

[Androgeus]

Dungeons are awfully gimmicky, and I hope they leave them as a one-of attempt and move on .

They might not return to dungeons, but I bet we’ll see an uptick in the number of extra game board like pieces in the future.

[Spore]

That doesn't change the fact that Dungeons and Sagas play in different design space and play very differently from each other. There aren't 10s of cards that say "search for a saga and pit it on the battlefield" and most Sagas won't be able to trigger several times per turn, especially not in limited.

I dont see dungeons triggering more than once or twice a turn.

[Tvtyrant]

I dont see dungeons triggering more than once or twice a turn.

Except the Acerak + Heartless Summoning, which I think might finally make a Heartless Summoning deck work in modern.

[enderlord99]

I have a deck where I attempt to get an enlightened counter onto the Vecna-token. I call it "Books are good for you."

[Dienekes]

Mine is getting the Enlightened counter on Faceless Haven and then just laughing.

[enderlord99]

Mine is getting the Enlightened counter on Faceless Haven and then just laughing.

I know about that combo, which is why I added more land-destruction to Professor Google.