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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    I know about that combo, which is why I added more land-destruction to Professor Google.
    Yeah, not a bad idea if a deck can fit it in.

    Personal plan is to play it once or twice for amusement before ditching it.

    Honestly, it seems a pretty boring way to win, that will work best when paired with a control deck, i.e. the most boring way to play the game. So not for me. But, I am amused by the combo.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    So I found an amusing little combo (which, admittedly has been around since Kaldheim came out).
    Fireblade Charger + Sword of the Realm. For three mana, you can repeatedly swing with a 3/1 that can kill most things that don't have a 7 butt or more. It gets more absurd when you have Bruenor Battlehammer, Fighter class, and other random equipment with equip costs of 2 or less (or greater, assuming multiple Fighter classes.) I'm contemplating making a historic deck based around the combo, but I'm having trouble deciding if I want to stick to Boros (for efficiency) or go Mardu (for extra creatures dying/leaving the grave support).
    A fundamental truth about existence: All is to be laughed at.

    Lawful Evil with Chaotic Good tendencies. Have fun figuring that out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Well, that makes you Dr. Robotnik. So...yeah?

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    I just reached diamond for the first time ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

    I salute you.
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    I wish it was possible to upvote here.

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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    So I feel bad for my opponent in my most recent game. I was playing a red Goblin Deck for the Standard 2022 format, turn three drop relic robber, swing and hit. My opponent drops that minotaur warrior that you have to kick to keep, swings. Turns 4 and 5 I top draw two more relic robbers. On my opponent's turn 5 there are 6 of those Goblin construct token on the field and my opponent has 4 life left at the beginning of the upkeep.
    A fundamental truth about existence: All is to be laughed at.

    Lawful Evil with Chaotic Good tendencies. Have fun figuring that out.

    How to deal with Slowbro in Gen 1:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Well, that makes you Dr. Robotnik. So...yeah?

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Do non-native triggered abilities get added to Vecna if one of his components had them from an aura or similar, or does he only ever get the ones printed on the cards?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

    I salute you.
    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    I wish it was possible to upvote here.

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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    Do non-native triggered abilities get added to Vecna if one of his components had them from an aura or similar, or does he only ever get the ones printed on the cards?
    Book of Vile Darkness looks at the cards as they are in exile. Most of the time this means you just get the printed triggered abilities of Eye and Hand of Vecna.

    If you want different abilities on Vecna, youíll need to turn something else (with a triggered ability) in to a hand/eye of Vecna
    Last edited by Androgeus; 2021-07-18 at 10:22 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    What would be a reasonable mana-cost for "Each opponent discards a card, then mills 3 cards, then exiles 5 cards at random from their graveyard. You draw 2 cards." on a sorcery?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

    I salute you.
    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    I wish it was possible to upvote here.

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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    What would be a reasonable mana-cost for "Each opponent discards a card, then mills 3 cards, then exiles 5 cards at random from their graveyard. You draw 2 cards." on a sorcery?
    First effect is 2 mana, second effect is 1 mana, third effect is 1 mana, third effect is 3. That brings it up to 7, I would probably push that down to 6.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    First effect is 2 mana
    If "each opponent discards a card" is generally worth 2 mana, then Vicious Rumors must be even more pushed than I thought!

    ...

    Your final assessment of "6 total mana" matches my original intuition for what my card should cost, though.
    Last edited by enderlord99; 2021-07-24 at 11:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

    I salute you.
    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    I wish it was possible to upvote here.

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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    If "each opponent discards a card" is generally worth 2 mana, then Vicious Rumors must be even more pushed than I thought!

    ...

    Your final assessment of "6 total mana" matches my original intuition for what my card should cost, though.
    I was using burglar rat as my basis, which is either slighly pushed or slightly underpowered. Vicious Rumors suggests slightly underpowered then, so 6 is a good approximation or if you want it to be a pushed card.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    In that vein, this is basically Vicious Rumors + Divination. I would almost certainly say this effect is UB, with a generic mana component to bump it up to a fair total mana cost.

    More interesting is that "exile 5 cards at random from your graveyard" portion. This is almost certainly not worth retaining as is. What if I have half my Yorion deck in my yard? Can you imagine trying to randomly generate 1-40, then 1-39, etc in a live event? No thank you. Imo, this should just be "exile 5 cards from their graveyard."

    Divination plus Vicious Rumors would be UB2. I'd say this is slightly more powerful than just that though. UB3 is almost certainly fair.

    I think it's more interesting to ask why you need this effect explicitly?
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    In that vein, this is basically Vicious Rumors + Divination. I would almost certainly say this effect is UB, with a generic mana component to bump it up to a fair total mana cost.

    More interesting is that "exile 5 cards at random from your graveyard" portion. This is almost certainly not worth retaining as is. What if I have half my Yorion deck in my yard? Can you imagine trying to randomly generate 1-40, then 1-39, etc in a live event? No thank you. Imo, this should just be "exile 5 cards from their graveyard."

    Divination plus Vicious Rumors would be UB2. I'd say this is slightly more powerful than just that though. UB3 is almost certainly fair.

    I think it's more interesting to ask why you need this effect explicitly?
    The basic concept is "A spell that makes each opponent discard, and which also nets you +1 card in hand. Then, add additional effects that are (theoretically) just barely enough to prevent it from ever accidentally aiding an opponent (as unlikely as that would be in the first place)"

    If an opponent is running Mill or pure Control, you put made yourself two cards closer to decking out... so, it also makes them three cards closer.
    If an opponent is running Reanimator or Dredge, you just put four things into a potential resource-pool for them... so, it also takes five out.

    Yeah, it's unlikely to matter... but that's kinda the point; it's all about being thorough with your sabotage. So yes: it's very much meant as a UB card.

    I agree that letting the caster choose is probably a better idea than randomizing it, for the reason you mentioned.
    Last edited by enderlord99; 2021-07-24 at 05:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

    I salute you.
    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    I wish it was possible to upvote here.

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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    The basic concept is "A spell that makes each opponent discard, and which also nets you +1 card in hand. Then, add additional effects that are (theoretically) just barely enough to prevent it from ever accidentally aiding an opponent (as unlikely as that would be in the first place)"

    If an opponent is running Mill or pure Control, you put made yourself two cards closer to decking out... so, it also makes them three cards closer.
    If an opponent is running Reanimator or Dredge, you just put four things into a potential resource-pool for them... so, it also takes five out.

    Yeah, it's unlikely to matter... but that's kinda the point; it's all about being thorough with your sabotage. So yes: it's very much meant as a UB card.

    I agree that letting the caster choose is probably a better idea than randomizing it, for the reason you mentioned.
    With this as the stated goal, it would be much cleaner for it to have your opponent just exile all the cards.

    New text would be:
    ---
    Target opponent exiles one card from their hand, then exiles the top three cards of their library.

    You draw two cards.
    ---
    This is still probably worth UB3.
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    With this as the stated goal, it would be much cleaner for it to have your opponent just exile all the cards.

    New text would be:
    ---
    TargetEach opponent exiles one card from their hand, then exiles the top three cards of their library.

    You draw two cards.
    ---
    This is still probably worth UB3.
    Your redesign makes a lot of sense, but I felt it necessary to revert a small part of it (reflected in quote)

    I agree that 3UB sounds about right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

    I salute you.
    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    I wish it was possible to upvote here.

    I use braces (also known as "curly brackets") to indicate sarcasm. If there are none present, I probably believe what I am saying; should it turn out to be inaccurate trivia, please tell me rather than trying to play along with an apparent joke I don't know I'm making.

  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    So, we're getting our first digital-only cards on Arena for Historic, with the upcoming Jumpstart: Historic Masters. This includes perpetually changing a card's stats, no matter what zone it's in, as well as "Seek", which is kind of a random tutor for a card in your deck that meets a certain criteria (like Seeking a nonland with mana value 2 or less). I'm down for those; Eternal was a digital card game that made great use of its digital environment and it had some effects similar to those. Unfortunately, there are some random cards, including a new Davriel planeswalker.
    Last edited by mythmonster2; 2021-07-26 at 12:56 PM.

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    Default Need your help picking a Commander!

    So my circle is now interested in making proxy Commander decks, and I'm coming to you guys for help.

    My brother-in-law is using an Atraxa deck (Proliferate, uses both superfriends and infect), while my wife is playing a proxy version of her old green Kamahl, Heart of Krosa deck.

    The Atraxa deck generally gets us to about 5 poison counters each around turn 5, due to just being able to disable our flying blockers (if we have any), while the Kamahl deck manages to pull out about 20 mana around turn 5 between Caged Sun and Gaea's Cradle, and wipes us with a Genesis Wave or a Howl of the Nightpack

    The tricky part is, I'm kinda picky when it comes to playing MTG. I want to avoid playing something that isn't very interactive with my opponents. Normally, this means I'd default to some kind of Blue deck, but both of my opponents don't find blue very fun to play against, and I'm worried I'd burn out too quickly trying to counter both of their best cards all of the time.

    I've tried a Feather, The Redeemed deck that focused on buffing or bouncing my creatures and spamming instants/sorceries for combo generators. It was really fun and had a lot of the gameplay mechanics I was interested in, but it doesn't do anything against either of these kinds of decks and isn't nearly on that same level of power.

    So what's a strong, interactive deck? I'm not too interested in Group Hug options, but that might change if you think they'd be a good fit.

    Sorry for the tall order. I know that "Interactive" and "Powerful" are pretty mutually exclusive in MTG, so I am really looking forward to your guys' solutions.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2021-07-26 at 08:16 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: Need your help picking a Commander!

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    So my circle is now interested in making proxy Commander decks, and I'm coming to you guys for help.

    My brother-in-law is using an Atraxa deck (Proliferate, uses both superfriends and infect), while my wife is playing a proxy version of her old green Kamahl, Heart of Krosa deck.

    The Atraxa deck generally gets us to about 5 poison counters each around turn 5, due to just being able to disable our flying blockers (if we have any), while the Kamahl deck manages to pull out about 20 mana around turn 5 between Caged Sun and Gaea's Cradle, and wipes us with a Genesis Wave or a Howl of the Nightpack

    The tricky part is, I'm kinda picky when it comes to playing MTG. I want to avoid playing something that isn't very interactive with my opponents. Normally, this means I'd default to some kind of Blue deck, but both of my opponents don't find blue very fun to play against, and I'm worried I'd burn out too quickly trying to counter both of their best cards all of the time.

    I've tried a Feather, The Redeemed deck that focused on buffing or bouncing my creatures and spamming instants/sorceries for combo generators. It was really fun and had a lot of the gameplay mechanics I was interested in, but it doesn't do anything against either of these kinds of decks and isn't nearly on that same level of power.

    So what's a strong, interactive deck? I'm not too interested in Group Hug options, but that might change if you think they'd be a good fit.

    Sorry for the tall order. I know that "Interactive" and "Powerful" are pretty mutually exclusive in MTG, so I am really looking forward to your guys' solutions.
    Can you clarify what you mean by "interactive" a bit? People tend to use that word in a few different ways...
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Need your help picking a Commander!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Can you clarify what you mean by "interactive" a bit? People tend to use that word in a few different ways...
    Something a bit less solitaire-like.

    I usually don't like MTG all that much, as many of the most powerful cards and combos work without really involving your opponents or completely remove their ability to respond. For instance, an infinite damage generator isn't about removing key creatures from the board, but is instead about dealing so much damage that your opponent can't do anything about it.

    It can be a bit like solitaire sometimes, with players trying to race towards the finish.

    But I'm more interested in Chess. Your play effects what I do, my play effects what you do. That kinda stuff.

    That's why I originally went with Feather. Since he synergizes with spells that target my creatures, and what spells I am recycling is clearly telegraphed, my opponents are constantly having to guess what tools I can pull out to solve a problem while also watching my mana.

    The more I play, the more interesting the game gets. I want to avoid the situation where a player just recognizes that there is nothing they can do that can matter, and that can happen a lot at high level play.

    Which is my dilemma. How do I balance power with fun?
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2021-07-27 at 12:41 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Need your help picking a Commander!

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Something a bit less solitaire-like.

    I usually don't like MTG all that much, as many of the most powerful cards and combos work without really involving your opponents or completely remove their ability to respond. For instance, an infinite damage generator isn't about removing key creatures from the board, but is instead about dealing so much damage that your opponent can't do anything about it.

    It can be a bit like solitaire sometimes, with players trying to race towards the finish.

    But I'm more interested in Chess. Your play effects what I do, my play effects what you do. That kinda stuff.

    That's why I originally went with Feather. Since he synergizes with spells that target my creatures, and what spells I am recycling is clearly telegraphed, my opponents are constantly having to guess what tools I can pull out to solve a problem while also watching my mana.

    The more I play, the more interesting the game gets. I want to avoid the situation where a player just recognizes that there is nothing they can do that can matter, and that can happen a lot at high level play.

    Which is my dilemma. How do I balance power with fun?
    Control with denial and counterspells do interaction it is just interaction the opponent hates because you try to make them play no game using spells, abilities and cards to stop them from playing while you play the denial game that have actions depending on what the opponent does.
    There is also tempo decks: you try to delay how fast the opponent deck kills you while you kill them.
    Last edited by noob; 2021-07-27 at 05:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    How interested in the Feather archetype were you? I could share my list if you're just looking for something a bit more interactive. My version revolves around putting Feather and Sunforger into play and then controlling the game that way until you can kill people.
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    How interested in the Feather archetype were you? I could share my list if you're just looking for something a bit more interactive. My version revolves around putting Feather and Sunforger into play and then controlling the game that way until you can kill people.
    Considered that, I just don't know what kind of tools I could come up with to deal with insane levels of ramp or an unlockable infect/proliferate deck.

    Generally, what I do is go onto EDH Rec and just pick the cards with the most deck rate or synergy percentage and then modify it from there (Sunforger was definitely a must-have). The deck works fine, it's just at a "normal" power level and is best designed to deal with countering creature removal...which neither of my opponents care about. It's supposed to leverage things like Guttersnipe and Aria of Flame, it just can't last long enough against this competition. Closest I've gotten is getting one player to 14 HP by having both on the board.

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Control with denial and counterspells do interaction it is just interaction the opponent hates because you try to make them play no game using spells, abilities and cards to stop them from playing while you play the denial game that have actions depending on what the opponent does.
    There is also tempo decks: you try to delay how fast the opponent deck kills you while you kill them.
    I absolutely do agree. I see counters as a very interactive form of gameplay, it just doesn't let them have the fun that they're looking forward to. They don't care about how fair it is, just as long as they can attempt the things that their decks were made to do.

    I think I might just have to tell them to suck it up and play something with counters, I just have a really hard time figuring out how to build a deck that uses counters while still not being oppressive and having a decent win condition.

    Niv Mizzets come to mind, I just don't think I'll ever have enough time to deal the damage I'd need to, as most games end between them around turn 6. Got any suggestions on key Tempo cards?

    Really appreciate the responses, though!
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2021-07-27 at 11:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Ramp and Atraxa lists usually still have a must answer effect or permanent. You'd be surprised what a Naturalize here or a Path there will do to those decks. The archetype itself isn't limited to playing lower power levels, it just doesn't offer much for competitive. If you'd like to post your list, I'm sure we could help you to bring it up a bit. It might also help if we knew how you were losing the game.

    My guess from what you've said thus far is that your Feather list is a collection of cards that interact with Feather, some ramp, some threats, and some removal, but your list doesn't internally synergise well, doesn't construct an end game engine, and you don't have enough card draw. You probably are finding yourself missing land 4, castimg Swords on something, playing a Guttersnipe, and then dying to XYZ.
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    Ramp and Atraxa lists usually still have a must answer effect or permanent. You'd be surprised what a Naturalize here or a Path there will do to those decks. The archetype itself isn't limited to playing lower power levels, it just doesn't offer much for competitive. If you'd like to post your list, I'm sure we could help you to bring it up a bit. It might also help if we knew how you were losing the game.

    My guess from what you've said thus far is that your Feather list is a collection of cards that interact with Feather, some ramp, some threats, and some removal, but your list doesn't internally synergise well, doesn't construct an end game engine, and you don't have enough card draw. You probably are finding yourself missing land 4, castimg Swords on something, playing a Guttersnipe, and then dying to XYZ.
    It used things like Smothering Tithe, Land Tax, or Birgi to fuel a ton of mana as needed, and then I just played instants on my own creatures every turn that would let me draw cards (Expedite, Defiant Strike, etc) which return to my hand at the start of the next player's turn. Then it'd use things like Aria of Flame, Aetherflux Reservoir, or even a horde of monks from Monastery Mentor to overwhelm the enemy.

    Although I realize that stuff like Vandalblast or Aura of Silence can probably go a long way.

    Generally, the way I end up losing is either because the Atraxa deck ends up landing a single infect (he has several unblockable creatures and instant effects), followed by proliferating in various ways, or the Kamahl deck ends up with an overwhelming force sooner than I can deal with (Doubling Season + Howl of the Nightpack + Kamahl's Overrun-on-a-stick = a lot of damage).
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2021-07-27 at 05:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.

    5th Edition Homebrewery
    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Regarding dealing with infect with white being one of your colors: Solemnity neuters infect quite effectively. If you can also get Phyrexian Unlife on board and some way to protect both enchantments, you can proceed to quit caring about your opponents killing you. (Via life loss or poison counters anyways. Other methods are fair game.)
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    It used things like Smothering Tithe, Land Tax, or Birgi to fuel a ton of mana as needed, and then I just played instants on my own creatures every turn that would let me draw cards (Expedite, Defiant Strike, etc) which return to my hand at the start of the next player's turn. Then it'd use things like Aria of Flame, Aetherflux Reservoir, or even a horde of monks from Monastery Mentor to overwhelm the enemy.

    Although I realize that stuff like Vandalblast or Aura of Silence can probably go a long way.

    Generally, the way I end up losing is either because the Atraxa deck ends up landing a single infect (he has several unblockable creatures and instant effects), followed by proliferating in various ways, or the Kamahl deck ends up with an overwhelming force sooner than I can deal with (Doubling Season + Howl of the Nightpack + Kamahl's Overrun-on-a-stick = a lot of damage).
    TBH, it sounds like you're going to have a rough time because you're giving yourself restrictions that your opponents don't have. Proliferate infect is, by design, very hard to interact with, and ramp can be a pretty "solitaire" deck archetype, your opponent either has a board wipe on the right turn or they don't and die.

    You could play counterspells, or discard, or stax, or land destruction, or just a ton of removal, but if your goal is to play a non-combo (so your opponents can interact with it) non-control (so that your opponents can still play cards) deck that can fight an aggressive ramp deck and a value-engine proliferate and infect deck, you don't have a whole lot of options.

    You could try to be more aggressive than they are, maybe? Not easy to pull off in EDH, but there are some pretty effective Voltron decks that can beat people to death quickly. It's definitely interactive since you're relying on dropping permanents and attacking with creatures, and it tends to punish decks that don't pack removal reasonably well if it's aggressive enough.
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    TBH, it sounds like you're going to have a rough time because you're giving yourself restrictions that your opponents don't have. Proliferate infect is, by design, very hard to interact with, and ramp can be a pretty "solitaire" deck archetype, your opponent either has a board wipe on the right turn or they don't and die.

    You could play counterspells, or discard, or stax, or land destruction, or just a ton of removal, but if your goal is to play a non-combo (so your opponents can interact with it) non-control (so that your opponents can still play cards) deck that can fight an aggressive ramp deck and a value-engine proliferate and infect deck, you don't have a whole lot of options.

    You could try to be more aggressive than they are, maybe? Not easy to pull off in EDH, but there are some pretty effective Voltron decks that can beat people to death quickly. It's definitely interactive since you're relying on dropping permanents and attacking with creatures, and it tends to punish decks that don't pack removal reasonably well if it's aggressive enough.
    My BiL (the Atraxa deck) recommend I focus on making a deck that functioned on its own, one that doesn't necessarily need the commander to work properly, which is good advice. Feather's cheap to play, which makes building a deck around him fairly easy, but it barely functions without him.

    I think I might go with a Breya or Zur deck and just force them to take on more control. There are a number of powerful combos with both (Zur can pull both Phyrexian Unlife and Solemnity to become immortal by about turn 5, Breya has several ways of getting infinite mana or damage). Neither of them really bother trying to build decks that consider the opponent, so maybe I should just not bother trying to play fair until they do. It certainly hasn't been doing me any favors so far.

    As an aside, why the hell did WOTC think that Infect was better than Wither? I am surprised by the shear number of infect-support cards that Atraxa deck is able to pull out regularly, which seems really odd for how unfun it is to play against. Wither, on the other hand, just makes me reconsider how I treat midgame combat. In the last game, he didn't even have to hit me; simply having a specific creature on the board and summoning another creature with infect was enough to put an infect counter on a player.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2021-07-28 at 01:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    First off, because it bugs me... Feather is a lady. 99.9% of angels in Magic are female (the exceptions being a couple cards in Planar Chaos and some of the angels in AFR).

    Also, I hate to tell you this, but your wife and BiL aren't going to play fair unless you make them. So make them. I'm pretty sure you can build a Feather version of Death & Taxes...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    First off, because it bugs me... Feather is a lady. 99.9% of angels in Magic are female (the exceptions being a couple cards in Planar Chaos and some of the angels in AFR).
    I thought she was, but the face lookmasculine with a normal card's view, and even zoomed in it looks really...odd.
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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    First off, because it bugs me... Feather is a lady. 99.9% of angels in Magic are female (the exceptions being a couple cards in Planar Chaos and some of the angels in AFR).
    To go one further, Iím fairly sure all Boros angels are copies of Razia.
    Last edited by Androgeus; 2021-07-28 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spi

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    As an aside, why the hell did WOTC think that Infect was better than Wither? I am surprised by the shear number of infect-support cards that Atraxa deck is able to pull out regularly, which seems really odd for how unfun it is to play against. Wither, on the other hand, just makes me reconsider how I treat midgame combat. In the last game, he didn't even have to hit me; simply having a specific creature on the board and summoning another creature with infect was enough to put an infect counter on a player.
    What do you mean by 'better'? The mechanic was designed to be tricky to play against and feel inevitable. No way to undo it, every proliferate card brings you one step closer to death. This was back in '10 and planned earlier, before Commander was officially supported by WotC and way before any thought to it was involved in the planning process, so competitive was what was being designed foróin which playing a 4 mana 3/2 and then another Infect creature if it survived was horribly inefficient in the format.

    The problem is that Commander didn't decide to go up to 20 poison counters to kill. That's honestly all there is to it. In no situation should Scion of the Ur-Dragon be able to one-hit-kill someone with Skithiryx and fire-breathing without getting an absurd amount of mana.
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