Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spikes

[Tvtyrant]

In the EDH format, what is the best answer, strategy or Commander against fast aggro deck?

Faster combo deck probably.

[LansXero]

1 vs 1 ? Yeah, faster autowin deck or opressive control deck and let them run out of fuel

Multiplayer? table politics.

[Techwarrior]

Blockers are a big thing against edh aggro decks. Removal and a 2/4 is much better then 2 removal spells if there's an aggro deck running around in a lot of cases.

Table politics also goes a long way, but that requires proper threat assessment. Aggro decks in commander are realistically a variant of combo. A 2/1 takes too long to do anything and is outclassed immediately. You need something like a flyer that you give infect and a power boost, or a bunch of elves/tokens with an overrun effect. Figuring out the way that your opponent's deck is trying to win and disrupting the most threatening parts of that is key to commander.

For example, if your opponent has a bunch of 1/1s and an anthem, you don't need to kill everything, but if you take care of either one they're effectively neutered. That's why against most voltron decks the most important thing to do is to always kill their creature. They'll always have more enchants and equips. They might not always have a creature to buff.

[Eurus]

Playing a creature turn 1 and then a board wipe on turn 3 or 4 tends to be pretty effective in my experience?

[Man_Over_Game]

Rules question for you all:

Say I'm using Tormond, the Desecrator (Gain a zombie whenever 1 or more cards leave my graveyard), and I have Scrapheap Scrounger in my graveyard (Exile another creature card from graveyard: Return me to the battlefield from graveyard).

The way Tormond is written, it only triggers per unique instance of a graveyard removal, so you don't get 10 zombies from a single delve or something.

However, does Scrapheap move a card from the graveyard once for two cards, or twice?

[enderlord99]

Rules question for you all:

Say I'm using Tormond, the Desecrator (Gain a zombie whenever 1 or more cards leave my graveyard), and I have Scrapheap Scrounger in my graveyard (Exile another creature card from graveyard: Return me to your hand from graveyard).

The way Tormond is written, it only triggers per unique instance of a graveyard removal, so you don't get 10 zombies from a single delve or something.

However, does Scrapheap move a card from the graveyard once for two cards, or twice?

From the sound of things, twice. Payment for an ability and the resolution of that ability are separate events.

[Man_Over_Game]

From the sound of things, twice. Payment for an ability and the resolution of that ability are separate events.

Booyah, thank you! That is an incredible way to basically get 3 reusable creatures for a sacrifice deck (costs 2 mana).

I was trying to find a valid use for my Vile Entomber (4 cost 2/2 Deathtouch, ETB tutor a card to your graveyard), but this just sold it.

[Techwarrior]

Rules question for you all:

Say I'm using Tormond, the Desecrator (Gain a zombie whenever 1 or more cards leave my graveyard), and I have Scrapheap Scrounger in my graveyard (Exile another creature card from graveyard: Return me to your hand from graveyard).

The way Tormond is written, it only triggers per unique instance of a graveyard removal, so you don't get 10 zombies from a single delve or something.

However, does Scrapheap move a card from the graveyard once for two cards, or twice?

Scrapheap Scrounger's ability removes a card from your yard when you activate it's own ability. That triggers your Tormond. Then when it's ability resolves (after the triggered ability), you would trigger the ability of Tormond via Scrapheap Scrounger leaving your yard.

You would get two zombies, but you would get them in a nuanced ordering if that's at all relevant.

[Fable Wright]

Rules question for you all:

Say I'm using Tormond, the Desecrator (Gain a zombie whenever 1 or more cards leave my graveyard), and I have Scrapheap Scrounger in my graveyard (Exile another creature card from graveyard: Return me to the battlefield from graveyard).

The way Tormond is written, it only triggers per unique instance of a graveyard removal, so you don't get 10 zombies from a single delve or something.

However, does Scrapheap move a card from the graveyard once for two cards, or twice?

Also note that you can stack Scrapheap Scrounger activations repeatedly, for 2 mana per zombie up until such time as the card actually leaves your graveyard.

[LaZodiac]

Big set reveal day. 2022 is looking good! The highlights;

Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty. A Return to the infamous plane of Kamigawa, now in the future.

Dominaria United. Return to Dominaria under the new paradigm. Things are looking good for the old girl.

THE BROTHERS WAR. A redo of the old Antiquities, in modern style and with modern art. Relive all your favorite moments of soul crushing despair!

Streets of New Capella. Mafia-era styled plane. Three colour set, featuring five crime families. Ob Nixilis is here in a pinstripe suit, and Elspeth has a special connection to this place (I'm reading that as "Phyrexian mobsters")

Un-Finity. New un set, wherein among other things we're making fun of how stupid Bolas is. A classic.

OTHER THINGS
-Actual art teasers for the Universre Beyond stuff, including Street Fighter, Warhammer, LOTR, and Two Weeks.
- Battle for Baldur's Gate Commander decks
- Jumpstart, Double Masters, and "Innistrad Double Feature" stuff coming out. It's pretty neat. The Double Feature is drive in movie aesthetic packaging for the wedding and werewolf sets combined, it seems.
- New Secret Lairs, including the excellent "here is some planeswalkers in ye olde style formatting".

[Emmerlaus]

I always liked the idea of cyberpunk Japan. Cannot wait for that set!

2022 will look nice but... I wonder when we will hear about a Phyrexian God? You know, since they stole tyrinite, the stuff that makes gods? Not that I should care though...

... to think I was so disappointed in WotC when they released Walking Dead stuff. But when Forgotten Realm got out, I was too tempted to buy Treasure CHest for my pirate deck. So I guess that is that. Decided to just not care about MTG lore anymore and just get the cards that speak to me

[LaZodiac]

2022 will look nice but... I wonder when we will hear about a Phyrexian God? You know, since they stole tyrinite, the stuff that makes gods?

I always liked the idea of cyberpunk Japan. Cannot wait for that set!

... to think I was so disappointed in WotC when they released Walking Dead stuff. But when Forgotten Realm got out, I was too tempted to buy Treasure CHest for my pirate deck. So I guess that is that. Decided to just not care about MTG lore anymore and just get the cards that speak to me

You can care about the lore and just ignore the Fortnite cards. Some things aren't made for you.

There's a couple (I think very cynical) reasons to give up on caring about the lore, but it feels counter intuitive to actually enjoying the game, and this is definitely not one of them.

[LansXero]

Im personally sick of commander decks and wish WotC hadn't flooded the release schedule with them. No more FOMO, people no longer rush to get the commander release as soon as it lands, they now hew and haw because there is another one coming in a couple of months.

[LaZodiac]

Im personally sick of commander decks and wish WotC hadn't flooded the release schedule with them. No more FOMO, people no longer rush to get the commander release as soon as it lands, they now hew and haw because there is another one coming in a couple of months.

You mean they provide enough stuff that people no longer splurge on things they might not want because "well we have to buy it we need more commander stuff"?

I get not liking it, that's totally valid. But nothing you said is negative at all

[Ninjaman]

I just did something nice for an opponent (specifically, I ramped them by targeting their Cascading Cataracts with my Field of Ruin (though I only did so because I needed to fix a color and they had no other nonbasics to target)) and then said "nice" because I wanted them to thank me. They said "oops" instead, which seems really rude TBH. I mean, they might have thought I'd made a legitimate mistake, but the fact that "thanks!" was available when they opened the emote-menu should have clued them in.

I mean you didn't really do something "nice" for them if they didn't have other nonbasics to target, and it seems completely reasonable for them to assume you made the play by mistake because you hadn't realized Cataracts was indestructible, (which would be a reasonable thing to miss).

[LansXero]

You mean they provide enough stuff that people no longer splurge on things they might not want because "well we have to buy it we need more commander stuff"?

I get not liking it, that's totally valid. But nothing you said is negative at all

The negative is that stores got enamored of commander stuff auto selling out due to FOMO, so WotC decided to make nothing but 'hot' commander stuff, at the cost of no more intro product for Standard except '2 welcome decks and a code' and 'pile of cards about to rotate out', and now that Commander doesnt sell out as fast either we've got neither.

And the announcement has even more commander decks down the pipeline, plus Challenger Decks... for pioneer. I just wish Standard got something to get new people playing, table politics and fishing for old singles is not a welcoming new player experience.

[Amechra]

I personally hate the Fortnite cards because I find Fortnite itself to be ethically gross. At least Magic targets its FOMO bull**** at adults.

Like, I'll be honest? This might actually be the last straw for me — it killed any excitement I had for the upcoming Innistrad sets, and it even poisoned the news of the return to frickin' Cyberpunk Kamigawa. Not because "oh no, WotC will put a gun to my head if I don't play their new Fortnite Dab card" or anything dumb like that, but because it basically rubbed the fact that I've been hypocritical about WotC's business model in my face.

[Emmerlaus]

I personally hate the Fortnite cards because I find Fortnite itself to be ethically gross. At least Magic targets its FOMO bull**** at adults.

Like, I'll be honest? This might actually be the last straw for me — it killed any excitement I had for the upcoming Innistrad sets, and it even poisoned the news of the return to frickin' Cyberpunk Kamigawa. Not because "oh no, WotC will put a gun to my head if I don't play their new Fortnite Dab card" or anything dumb like that, but because it basically rubbed the fact that I've been hypocritical about WotC's business model in my face.

Wait... I thought it was a meme or a joke. Is there going to be a Fortnite set?!?!?!

[LaZodiac]

I personally hate the Fortnite cards because I find Fortnite itself to be ethically gross. At least Magic targets its FOMO bull**** at adults.

Like, I'll be honest? This might actually be the last straw for me — it killed any excitement I had for the upcoming Innistrad sets, and it even poisoned the news of the return to frickin' Cyberpunk Kamigawa. Not because "oh no, WotC will put a gun to my head if I don't play their new Fortnite Dab card" or anything dumb like that, but because it basically rubbed the fact that I've been hypocritical about WotC's business model in my face.

How so? Like, what is the issue here? I'm just curious, because I don't get it at all.

Wait... I thought it was a meme or a joke. Is there going to be a Fortnite set?!?!?!

No, it's the World's Beyond thing. Thing Secret Lair printing of old cards with art based on that series.

[Man_Over_Game]

No, it's the World's Beyond thing. Thing Secret Lair printing of old cards with art based on that series.

Here's the link, for anyone who's interested: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Universes_Beyond

To summarize, they're going to be releasing a bunch of non-canon sets that folks might enjoy (ranging from The Walking Dead to Street Fighter), and then they'll convert those cards into "canon" sets with MTG artwork and names about 6 months later.

Most of The Walking Dead set seem like reasonable Commanders for some starter decks.

Glenn, for instance, is a 1WU 1/3 with Skulk and "When I hit a player, draw cards equal to my power", great for buffing with white effects to draw an extra 2-3 cards with minimal risk or cost. Would be easily converted into some kind of cleric-rogue thing later on down the line. You could even debuff his attack with blue to make him unblockable against tokens, and then jack up his damage after going through for a Commander damage wincon.

Michonne would make for an interesting Green/Black Equipment Zombie deck. Imagine having to deal with a Menace, Deathtouch, Trample, Indestructible card that has to be blocked every turn. That'd get annoying real quick.

The others are a bit niche to build a deck around, but are still decent general-purpose legendaries to stick in any deck they fit in.

[Emmerlaus]

Here's the link, for anyone who's interested: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Universes_Beyond

Most of The Walking Dead set seem like reasonable Commanders for some starter decks.

Nah, I dont agree. The simple fact that they pit "Walkers" instead of zombies on Michonne card is too confusing. Also, I am not interested in any cards that isnt applying to a fantasy setting.

Im actually surprised that Warhammer is coming off sooner then Lord of the Ring... I tried playing the system but I had no talent or patience with the figurines and simply nobody to play with. At least with Spelltable, I can play paper MTG online.

Side note: They decided for a realistic drawing for the Walking Dead serie... but then decided to make Gandalf black... Huh... Would you look at that... I thought it was Gandalf the grey or Gandalf the White... Now we have Gandalf the Black LOL

[LansXero]

II've been hypocritical about WotC's business model

Collectibles target addicts. Store owners and influencers will dress it up in 'community' or 'fandom' or whatever, but its all skinner boxes in the end. Now, of course, the game or lore can be interacted with to any degree one finds comfortable, but its all paid for by the addicts who keep getting hooked.

Coming to terms with it and either leaving or not caring is hard apparently; people in the store groups keep getting offended when it gets pointed out. But yes, targetting kids with it is a new low. Then again, MLP Secret Lair was already a thing.

[Man_Over_Game]

Nah, I dont agree. The simple fact that they pit "Walkers" instead of zombies on Michonne card is too confusing. Also, I am not interested in any cards that isnt applying to a fantasy setting.

I agree, these are going to be reprinted as MTG-canon cards sometime in the near future. Same effects, different skin. And obviously without that terrible "Walker" verbiage (which will just be replaced with the standard 2/2 zombie).

[Emmerlaus]

I agree, these are going to be reprinted as MTG-canon cards sometime in the near future. Same effects, different skin. And obviously without that terrible "Walker" verbiage (which will just be replaced with the standard 2/2 zombie).

That... will be surprisingly more acceptable. I hope printed in a larger scale then the Secret Lairs though.

Im surprise how ok I am with the cards crossover so far. Once I have accepted to just forget about mtg lore and detached myself from it, it’s actually ok my in book. Still going to roll my eyes if I see a walking dead card at my table though. Lucille is especially cringy, not a weapon from a fantasy setting.

[Man_Over_Game]

That... will be surprisingly more acceptable. I hope printed in a larger scale then the Secret Lairs though.

Im surprise how ok I am with the cards crossover so far. Once I have accepted to just forget about mtg lore and detached myself from it, it’s actually ok my in book. Still going to roll my eyes if I see a walking dead card at my table though. Lucille is especially cringy, not a weapon from a fantasy setting.

Sorry, I just read the fine print, and I was wrong. The future Universes Beyond cards will be reprinted as MTG-canon cards, The Walking Dead set was not included in that statement (although they've said that they don't have any real reasons not to).

[Amechra]

Collectibles target addicts. Store owners and influencers will dress it up in 'community' or 'fandom' or whatever, but its all skinner boxes in the end. Now, of course, the game or lore can be interacted with to any degree one finds comfortable, but its all paid for by the addicts who keep getting hooked.

Coming to terms with it and either leaving or not caring is hard apparently; people in the store groups keep getting offended when it gets pointed out. But yes, targetting kids with it is a new low. Then again, MLP Secret Lair was already a thing.

Exactly this. Basically, this was my personal "well, I can't just pretend it isn't a thing" threshold.

[LaZodiac]

Nah, I dont agree. The simple fact that they pit "Walkers" instead of zombies on Michonne card is too confusing. Also, I am not interested in any cards that isnt applying to a fantasy setting.

Im actually surprised that Warhammer is coming off sooner then Lord of the Ring... I tried playing the system but I had no talent or patience with the figurines and simply nobody to play with. At least with Spelltable, I can play paper MTG online.

Side note: They decided for a realistic drawing for the Walking Dead serie... but then decided to make Gandalf black... Huh... Would you look at that... I thought it was Gandalf the grey or Gandalf the White... Now we have Gandalf the Black LOL

... in what world is this guy black?

------

I mean lets be fair here; this is a collectable trading card game. It's always been. These being slightly more collectable than others isn't that big in the grand scheme of things. I'll admit I don't buy any cards, it's just not a thing I care about, so maybe I'm just coming at it from a perspective that is different from all of yours. I do get what you're coming at, though.

[Man_Over_Game]

I recently fell in love with Breena as a Commander, as she both has a powerful group-hug mechanic while also being able to leverage her powers to great effect. There have been games where I dominated without the help of others, and there have been other games where I was threatened by a dominating player, so I helped another player to deal with my problems and hoped I got ignored. It's been great.

However, I want to experiment with other deck opportunities.

I'd like to avoid another Black/White deck, if possible. I'd really like to find a way to make a PvP interactive Blue/Red deck, but that's a really tall order (since those decks probably have the least PvP interaction than most, often relying on effects the owner triggers or comboing stuff out of hand.).

What other Commanders would you guys suggest for this kind of gameplay? Something that's incredibly interactive with your opponents, but still can be a force to reckon with when you have to take matters into your own hands?

[Emmerlaus]

I recently fell in love with Breena as a Commander, as she both has a powerful group-hug mechanic while also being able to leverage her powers to great effect. There have been games where I dominated without the help of others, and there have been other games where I was threatened by a dominating player, so I helped another player to deal with my problems and hoped I got ignored. It's been great.

However, I want to experiment with other deck opportunities.

I'd like to avoid another Black/White deck, if possible. I'd really like to find a way to make a PvP interactive Blue/Red deck, but that's a really tall order (since those decks probably have the least PvP interaction than most, often relying on effects the owner triggers or comboing stuff out of hand.).

What other Commanders would you guys suggest for this kind of gameplay? Something that's incredibly interactive with your opponents, but still can be a force to reckon with when you have to take matters into your own hands?

Well you need to specify what you mean about PVP. Interactions should be in any kind of decks, no matter the color.

Do you want a deck that relies on the Commander abilities mostly? Would you like to have a wheel deck?

[Man_Over_Game]

Well you need to specify what you mean about PVP. Interactions should be in any kind of decks, no matter the color.

Do you want a deck that relies on the Commander abilities mostly? Would you like to have a wheel deck?

I guess I'm looking for stuff that encourages interaction from my opponents, group hug or Monarchy kind of stuff. The only examples I've found in Red/Blue (the colors I'm most interested in) have been Kraum and Ludivec, but some more opponent vs. opponent aggression (like with Breena) would be nice if possible.

The how isn't too terribly important, it's not that hard to keep important cards alive when you're running blue.