Battlerager / Champion - Thoughts

[Escribblings]

The Battlerager is widely regarded as a weak or niche subclass, and not particularly suited to multiclassing.

This post is more of a case of rubber duck debugging, but I felt it might also be beneficial to others. Feel free to comment on this.

One of the benefits of choosing to dip or full MC into fighter is to pick up fighting styles, but at the sacrifice of ASIs you can get them through Fighting Initiate feat from TCoE. it doesn't say anything about it, so I presume that you could stack this feat to choose multiple fighting styles.

Color codes (based on my desires)

Gold = Desirable
Blue = Beneficial
Black = Meh

Levels	Proficiency (Primary Class)	Rages	Rage Damage	Barbarian Features	Fighter Features
0 / 20	+6	-	-	-	Extra Attack (3)
1 / 19	+2	2	+2	Rage, Unarmored Defence	ASI/Feat
2 / 18	+2	2	+2	Reckless Attack, Danger Sense	Survivor
3 / 17	+2	3	+2	Battlerager Armor	Action Surge (2 uses), Indomitable (3 uses)
4 / 16	+2	3	+2	ASI/Feat	ASI/Feat
5 / 15	+3	3	+2	Extra Attack (1), Fast Movement	Superior Critical (18-20)
6 / 14	+3	4	+2	Reckless Abandon	ASI/Feat
7 / 13	+3	4	+2	Feral Instinct	Indomitable (2 uses)
8 / 12	+3	4	+2	ASI/Feat	ASI/Feat
9 / 11	+4	4	+3	Brutal Critical (1 die)	Extra Attack (2)
10 / 10	+4	4	+3	Battlerager Charge	Additional Fighting Style
11 / 9	+4	4	+3	Relentless Rage	Indomitable (1 use)
12 / 8	+4	5	+3	ASI/Feat	ASI/Feat
13 / 7	+5	5	+3	Brutal Critical (2 dice)	Remarkable Athlete
14 / 6	+5	5	+3	Spiked Retribution	ASI/Feat
15 / 5	+5	5	+3	Persistent Rage	Extra Attack (1)
16 / 4	+5	5	+4	ASI/Feat	ASI/Feat
17 / 3	+6	6	+4	Brutal Critical (3 dice)	Improved Critical (19-20)
18 / 2	+6	6	+4	Indomitable Might	Action Surge (1 use)
19 / 1	+6	6	+4	ASI/Feat	Fighting Style, Second Wind
20 / 0	+6	Unlimited	+4	Primal Champion	-

I honestly feel these 2 classes do have some synergy.

It's just deciding where to split them. As far as fighting styles are concerned, I see two options:

• 1-handed weapon and shield
• 2 handed weapon

So fighting styles. I'm not interested in any of the optional fighting styles, they don't add anything for me. From the basic styles, Archery and Two-weapon Fighting can also get lost, and Protection is a bit too situational for me.

That leaves

• Defense - +1 AC, what's not to like
• Duelling - Benefits shield users, +2 damage on 1-handed weapons (actually better for some versatile weapons (longsword/warhammer))
• Great Weapon Fighting - minor benefit to 2 handed weapons, the greatsword benefits the most.

The question then is whether to go with a 1d8/10 versatile weapon, a 1d12 great weapon, or a 2d6 great weapon.

• Duelling means additional critical damage die are d8s, max brutal critical would be 5d8+2, but AC is increased by 2
• Great Weapon Fighting gives a dilemma. With a Greatsword, max brutal critical would be 7d6, but with a Greataxe would be 5d12. Rerolling 1s & 2s on the Greatsword could put the average rolls above the greats axe, etc... and would certainly give a more even spread, but would definitely sacrifice nova damage.

The Battlerager Armor basically gives the Two-Weapon Fighting style, without the dual wielder feat, TWF limits you to 2x 1d6 weapons. The Battlerager armor may only be a 1d4, but it means the primary attack can be a 1d8+2, 1d10, or 1d12. Although, unless the DM is on board with magical armor imparting its bonus to the attack/damage as well as the AC, 2 high level magic weapons *might* overtake it.

Feats are the next area of choice:

If not dual classing, then taking the Fighting Initiate feat once, or even twice, could make sense

For multiclassing there are a few of interest

• Great Weapon Master - Turns your 1d4 Armor attack into a 1d10/1d12 Weapon attack on a critical hit, plus the option to add 10 to damage (with a +5 penalty to the attack)
• Medium Armor Master - Increase max AC Dex bonus from +2 to +3, so AC+1 and removes stealth penalty.
• Crusher - Increase STR or CON by 1, pushback 5' 1ce per turn on bludgeoning damage, attack rolls against target have advantage until your next turn on critical bludgeoning damage.
• Piercer - Increase STR or DEX by 1, re-roll damage dice 1ce per turn (use new roll), 1 extra damage die on critical with a piercing weapon
• Savage Attacker - Reroll damage dice 1ce per turn (use either total)
• Slasher - Increase STR or DEX by 1, reduce target speed by 10' 1ce per turn, on critical slashing damage, target has disadvantage on all attacks until your next turn.

Using the Standard Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), and a mountain dwarf (+2 CON, +2 STR), and up to 7 ASIs/Feats. We can start with a STR and DEX of 17 and 14.

This only needs 1 ASI and a feat to hit 20 STR, leaving the Barbarian 3 ASIs/Feats available. The Fighter gets up to 5, plus 2 fighting styles. If the Barb burns to feats on fighting styles, that leaves 1 ASI/Feat. However, the Barb's capstone is equivalent to 4 ASIs, and raises the stat caps from 20 to 24!


Working out the split points is tricky.

Anything below 3/17 is pointless as the extra rage damage is vastly outweighed by the fighters 3rd attack.

3/17 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 2 surges, 2, fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 18

4/16 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 7 ASIs/Feats, crits on 18 - gains an ASI/Feat, but seriously delays the first extra attack.
5/15 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 18 - gets the extra attack at the right time, but loses an ASI/Feat.

6/14 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19
8/12 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19
9/11 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +1 crit die

12/8 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +1 crit die
13/7 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +2 crit dice

16/4 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +2 crit dice
17/3 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +3 crit dice

Going past 17 halves the chance of a crit, and unless you take it to 19 , loses an ASI/Feat, might as well go to 20 if you're doing that.

Based on the above, I think Battleragaer 9 / Champion 11 is a good split.

STR 20 (using 1 ASI), DEX 16

Defense / Great Weapon Fighting
Great Weapon Master / Medium Armor Master / Choice of Crusher/Piercer/Slasher / Choice of any other Feat/ASI

AC = 14+3+1 = 18
3 attacks at 1d12+10(GWM)+5(STR)+3(Rage) = 90 max, On crit = 3d12+10+5+3 (max 162 (plus 1d12 for piercer (pike))) and bonus attack changes from 1d4+5+3 to 1d12+10+5+3.

With advantage from reckless attack, crit on 19 or 20, and an action surge, there is a good chance of critting.

Defense / Duelling
Medium Armor Master / Choice of Crusher/Piercer/Slasher / Choice of any other Feat/ASI x2
Shield

AC = 14+3+1+2 = 20
3 attacks at 1d8+2+5+3 = 48 max, on crit = 3d8+2+5+3 (max 102 (plus 1d8 for piercer)), bonus attack = 1d4+5+3

A 2 AC penalty, but half the damage output makes the GWF very appealing to me.

However, a Frenzy Barb gets to use their Weapon as a bonus attack all the time, and dropping the GWM feat drops the max damage from 3 attacks from 90 to 60, much closer to the 48 of the dueller.

And if a dueller picks up a +3 shield, and the GM allows for +3 Battlerager armor, you're looking at an AC of 26! +5 AC vs +12 max damage (ignoring crits) makes it a much tougher decision.

Then there's the path to get to Level 20 - long and arduous, and unlikely to happen, so do you go to Barb 9, then go fighter?, do you dip fighter early to pick up a fighting style?

Or do you decide you only need a 3 level dip to pick up the improved critical and a fighting style, and burn a feat for the second fighting style (if you want it?)

[Sherlockpwns]

First I think the champion synergy is somewhat light here. At most I’d say champ 4, only for the asi, if at all.

The rager is thematically fun but just like the champion, dull.

That said the real value of the rager early on is you can make the bonus attack when raging. This means unlike practically any other class you can make a bonus attack with sword and shield or two handed weapons without taking a feat.

I am surprised you gave a low value to the level 6 ability. We can assume you are going to be at 20 con quickly, so 5hp while raging is effectively 10 hp shield per round while going ham. Attacking recklessly is the core of the rager.

Dash as a bonus action is nice, and the level 14 ability is... a thing. But frankly the whole subclass kind of ends at level 6 to me. That is where you get the 4th rage.

But if you are not aiming for brutal crit the benefits of champion also drop off a lot. So if the absolute goal is rager/champ, I’d guess I would say rager to 6, champ to 3, rager to 9, champ to 4, and end at a 16/4 split. Or forgoe the asi for the final brutal crit at 17/3. Doesn’t really matter, you’ll probably never see level 20 anyway.

So, that said, if I were making a rager I think I’d consider swapping out of barbarian at 6 and going into artificer. Obviously getting magic armor is nice, but there are some weird synergies here too with two subclasses.

First, the obvious one, armorer. Both forms end up having their use here, but infiltrator armor is probably best, allowing you to negate your stealth disadvantage and letting you move faster. The launcher attack is nice to have when you are not able to get to melee range.

While you can’t cast spells while raging, you can pre cast mirror image before raging potentially. Same for longstrider, but it’s probably better to just heal wounds and have a few utility spells for out of combat.

If you ever get to artificer 9, your armor will be spikey awesome! But that is player level 15 so...

The alternative is more strange: alchemist. While you can’t cast spells while raging you CAN drink potions! And in fact after a long rest you can convert all your spells to potions. This is very DM dependent, but if the dm does not allow for easy access to heal potions this can be a vital component for when someone goes down.

Of course the other option I see to artificer is simply paladin (or both if you have the stat array) and use smite. Given how often you are reckless attacking (hopefully) and with 3 attacks, you should crit often enough to really make a bang even without champion.

So that’s my take. Hope it helps! Make a rager... it’s not THAT bad.

[Escribblings]

Thanks, food for thought there, and I'll check out the artificer

...
I am surprised you gave a low value to the level 6 ability. We can assume you are going to be at 20 con quickly, so 5hp while raging is effectively 10 hp shield per round while going ham. Attacking recklessly is the core of the rager.
...

Can you explain what you mean by 10hp shield per round?

Beginning at 6th level, when you use Reckless Attack while raging, you also gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum of 1). They vanish if any of them are left when your rage ends.

Unless I'm misreading it you get a max of 5 THP at the beginning of the rage.

Ok, you have resistance to certain attacks, halving their damage... So I can kind of see where the 10hp comes from.

But per round?

I read that as per rage, if your THP topped up every time your turn came around, that would be great, but that's a bit like the Champions 18th level ability

At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don’t gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.

[Composer99]

Per the PHB, you can take a feat only once unless its description says otherwise, so you won't be able to stack the fighting style feat unless it says you can.

[Escribblings]

Per the PHB, you can take a feat only once unless its description says otherwise, so you won't be able to stack the fighting style feat unless it says you can.

Thanks, yes, I had missed that. As far as I can tell, only Elemental Adept states this, so yeah.

@Sherlockpwns - I've taken a look at the artificer and it's really not doing it for me.

Looking at the splits, L20 BR gives 3 extra crit die, and the capstone is an extra +2 to attack AND damage, but you only have 2 + 1 bonus attack per turn, and only 1 fighting style from a feat.

17/3 gives the second fighting style, doubles the chance of a crit, and keeps the 3 brutal die, plus the chance to make an extra 2 attacks on 1 round.

9/11 is the other split that appeals, you only get 1 brutal die - but you get an extra attack. So your guaranteed 3 attacks + modifiers per turn - so an additional chance to crit, but only get to add 1 die when critting.


I'll definitely take BR to 5, and then Ch to 3, from there it's anyones guess ;)

[stoutstien]

BR can re-up the THP every turn so it is effectively THP=Con each turn you RA while raging. If it was limited to once per rage it would say so.

That and the shield friendly ba attack is the bulk of the BR staying power. They can make decent grapplers but so do most barbarians.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm a bigger fan of the Rogue Scout/Barb. Battlerager mix.

Bonus to grapples, support of one-handed weapons, Reckless Attack now gives THP AND Sneak Attack, grapple someone and Dash, grapple someone and Scout makes you run away with them even further..

Lots of synergies. Champion is only going to give you something of value if you have a really big weapon (and the Battlerager shouldn't) and if you roll Advantage a lot (which most Barbs do anyway).

I'd personally think Bear Totem would be better with Champ, as the damage resistance would probably be more valuable than the THP.

[Jerrykhor]

Battlerager is just... so lame. Barbarian is a big boi class, having to deal with a puny 1d4 damage die feels bad. Plus it sounds like you have to do a chest bump just to hurt your enemies.

That, and the 3 damage on grapple doesn't scale, and doesn't work with bonus action grapple either. And why does the spikes not reflect damage before level 14? Overall its just so poorly designed.