#1231 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

So ... it's Hammer Time?
I also recall Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em. Maybe foreshadowing?

XD

The only thing that saved me from spending the next twenty minutes trying to come up with a followup filk line, is knowing that I can't come up with one worthy of that. (^_~)

I just noticed that there were a lot of different hammers mentioned in this strip, as well as the song in question, and then it just wrote itself.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Not a bad strip, but I feel a bit... "anticlimaxed"

Anything that's not the climax would have to be, at least a little.

[Robots]

Hey, I'm early!

Because I had been checking quite a bit to see if there was an update (by typing in the URL of the next comic just in case my browser wasn't registering an update, this has happened more than once), the website already thought I had checked it out, lol.

[scopperil]

See, the question is how you choose what to change their mind about. Were there certain spots on the head that correlated to something, say, vegetables, and hitting the spot flipped their opinion?

Is there a spot I can hit to fix that...?

You're thinking of acu-puncher.

[Taevyr]

Concerning hitting people on the head until they agree: "If violence wasn't your last resort, you didn't resort to enough of it"

[Ochotona]

This depiction of how Commune works, plus Redcloak's admission he's never seen or talked to TDO makes me even more suspicious of whether TDO actually exists, versus Redcloak getting conned by some other god (probably Loki).

[TheNecrocomicon]

That would not be even sufficient. They need Redcloak to cast a 9th level spell equivalent at the gate... I can imagine quite well what kind of spell would Redcloak cast if being forced to do something against his will

Let me guess ... Implosion? Just maybe?

So what this means is that the Order need to goad Redcloak into casting Implosion on someone or something that can survive it and absorb the magical potential of the spell, then dump said magical power into whatever ritual is used to seal the rifts and/or the Snarl's improved prison.

5e has the Rod of Absorption that could arguably do that, does 3.5e have any equivalent?

This depiction of how Commune works, plus Redcloak's admission he's never seen or talked to TDO makes me even more suspicious of whether TDO actually exists, versus Redcloak getting conned by some other god (probably Loki).

We have seen other deities openly admit to the Dark One's existence, including ones who are antagonistic to him, and enough of the godly pantheons have had interactions with the Dark One over the centuries/millennia that there's a lot more evidence in favour of the Dark One existing than against the same.

[The MunchKING]

Let me guess ... Implosion? Just maybe?

So what this means is that the Order need to goad Redcloak into casting Implosion on someone or something that can survive it and absorb the magical potential of the spell, then dump said magical power into whatever ritual is used to seal the rifts and/or the Snarl's improved prison.

It's not that they need him to cast a 9th level spell, they need him to put the equivalent power of a 9th level spell into a specific ritual to strengthen the Gates.

[Ochotona]

We have seen other deities openly admit to the Dark One's existence, including ones who are antagonistic to him, and enough of the godly pantheons have had interactions with the Dark One over the centuries/millennia that there's a lot more evidence in favour of the Dark One existing than against the same.

Per strip #1142 and #1143, virtually everything we know about TDO's relationship with other deities comes from Thor, and Thor's knowledge mostly comes from Loki--the literal god of lies and deceit. Those strips explicitly mention that many other gods are skeptical of TDO's existence. And in Thor's image of him confronting TDO, Loki plus Rat and Tiamat are present for some unexplained reason--jointly maintaining an illusion, perhaps?

Its getting awfully fishy that neither we the readers nor any character are getting firsthand scenes with TDO, just flashbacks and references. I smell a twist.

[mjasghar]

See, the question is how you choose what to change their mind about. Was it a thing where you thought really hard about the opinion you wanted them to have? Were there certain spots on the head that correlated to something, say, vegetables, and hitting the spot flipped their opinion?

I'm probably overthinking it.

Is there a spot I can hit to fix that...?

Sounds like Terry Pratchett’s idea of retro phrenology

[Falcon X]

"When all you have is a nail," would have been beautiful if he said Nale.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Well! Good to know that the gods know? Still looking forward to how persuading redcloak turns out..

[CountDVB]

Per strip #1142 and #1143, virtually everything we know about TDO's relationship with other deities comes from Thor, and Thor's knowledge mostly comes from Loki--the literal god of lies and deceit. Those strips explicitly mention that many other gods are skeptical of TDO's existence. And in Thor's image of him confronting TDO, Loki plus Rat and Tiamat are present for some unexplained reason--jointly maintaining an illusion, perhaps?

Its getting awfully fishy that neither we the readers nor any character are getting firsthand scenes with TDO, just flashbacks and references. I smell a twist.

Except for Jirix having met The Dark One and Thor himself about to fight The Dark One before Loki talked him down as we saw .

[Ochotona]

Except for Jirix having met The Dark One and Thor himself about to fight The Dark One before Loki talked him down as we saw .

Jirix's report back from the afterlife is a legit point in favor of TDO existing, but even that is weirdly indirect.

The Thor attack on the TDO in 1143 isn't shown directly, it's just Thor's illustration; and as I noted above the presence of Rat and Tiamat at the confrontation is unexplained and suspicious. Why are they there? How would they even know that Thor was planning an attack, and why isn't their presence commented on?
(Also suspicious but perhaps irrelevant: purple just happens to be the color you'd get from blending Rat's blue and Tiamat's red quiddities.)

The story told in 1143 is very, vey suspicious to my eye, and getting moreso as the story progresses.

[understatement]

Jirix's report back from the afterlife is a legit point in favor of TDO existing, but even that is weirdly indirect.

The Thor attack on the TDO in 1143 isn't shown directly, it's just Thor's illustration; and as I noted above the presence of Rat and Tiamat at the confrontation is unexplained and suspicious. Why are they there? How would they even know that Thor was planning an attack, and why isn't their presence commented on?

It's an illustration because Thor is doing some mini-illusion to show Durkon and Minrah what actually happened. It's as directly shown as you can get. Loki was there to stop Thor from killing the Dark One.

(Also suspicious but perhaps irrelevant: purple just happens to be the color you'd get from blending Rat's blue and Tiamat's red quiddities.)

Indeed, it's irrelevant. The color of the quiddity is merely a byproduct of their divine power. Gods can't create other gods, and certainly not ones of different quiddities, else they would have done it long ago to seal up the rifts permanently.

[hungrycrow]

Jirix's report back from the afterlife is a legit point in favor of TDO existing, but even that is weirdly indirect.

The Thor attack on the TDO in 1143 isn't shown directly, it's just Thor's illustration; and as I noted above the presence of Rat and Tiamat at the confrontation is unexplained and suspicious. Why are they there? How would they even know that Thor was planning an attack, and why isn't their presence commented on?
(Also suspicious but perhaps irrelevant: purple just happens to be the color you'd get from blending Rat's blue and Tiamat's red quiddities.)

The story told in 1143 is very, vey suspicious to my eye, and getting moreso as the story progresses.

If Loki & co were able to fake a deity well enough to fool the other gods for thousands of years, and create a whole religion and an afterlife and supply all those fake clerics with spells, why would they have trouble communing with Redcloak?

I definitely agree that Loki lied about his interaction with TDO. Possibly notable is that between them they have a representative of each quiddity.

[Ochotona]

If Loki & co were able to fake a deity well enough to fool the other gods for thousands of years

From the information we're given in #1143, the amount of contact between TDO and the rest of the gods is actually very limited. After Thor's initial attack--in which, as far as we're shown in Thor's illustrations, he's never alone against TDO--Loki is the sole point of contact for the northern pantheon, and claims to have all contact cut off. Tiamat's the only point of contact for the western pantheon. We're not told whether any of the southern pantheon has met TDO, but we are told that Rat is discouraging negotiations. All pretty consistent with hinkiness from Loki+Tiamat+Rat.

why would they have trouble communing with Redcloak?

This is a fair point, but I think it's plausible that it'd be hard for Loki et al. to successfully maintain a illusion of a deity, especially against their own high-level cleric. Hence a decision to duck all contact, as they've been doing with the other gods.

[Windscion]

Saying that Loki is lying about his contacts with TDO suggests that Loki, Rat, Tiamat and TDO are conspiring together. And hence implying that Loki's actions thwarting Hel are because they need more time? Still, if this secret cabal is responsible, via 4-quiddity efforts, for the planet in the rifts, there must be more to it than getting away with it. Maybe the fact that they designed it w/o interference from the gods of good and neutrality? It seems like it could possibly shield the pantheons from the snarl's rampages, meaning that TDO (and Hel!) will readily survive the transition.

Against this idea, the rift's reaction when Vector Legion's psion (Laurin) probed it.

So maybe the plan was for RC to provoke the destruction of this world, somehow forcing the pantheons to use the already-installed planet in the rifts? Because w/o the cooperation of Purple Quiddity, they maybe cannot destroy it? If that were the case, RC has cause to be really, really pissed at his patron!

Yeah, that's unlikely, but speculation can be fun. And it might explain why TDO hasn't been more chatty with his high priest.

(If you mean TDO doesn't exist, and is a ploy by Loki, Rat, and Tiamat, their game makes no sense at all and doesn't even explain anything. Especially that fact that Thor specifically confronted TDO, by his own testimony.)

[Ochotona]

(If you mean TDO doesn't exist, and is a ploy by Loki, Rat, and Tiamat, their game makes no sense at all and doesn't even explain anything. Especially that fact that Thor specifically confronted TDO, by his own testimony.)

Dunno, tricking goblinkind into securing a gate for you, without the other gods realizing you're behind the scheme and moving to stop you, seems like the sort of thing Loki would have both an interest in and aptitude for.

I do agree that the plausibility of this theory turns on Loki/Tiamat/Rat being able to deceive Thor with illusions during his attempted attack. But we haven't really gotten any information from the strips about whether that sort of god-vs-god successful illusions are possible/plausible.

[Feruk]

Dunno, tricking goblinkind into securing a gate for you, without the other gods realizing you're behind the scheme and moving to stop you, seems like the sort of thing Loki would have both an interest in and aptitude for.

If the three of them are conspiring, then what is their goal? Why hasn't Loki said 'Nah, risks are too much', rather than 'Lets take a chance to solve this problem forever' (when the latter could not work because no TDO)? What, exactly, do these three gain by continuing to be playing this game when they all know that the ritual is far too long for the gods to allow it to finish (without the foreknowledge that they'd get locked in a godsmoot, as this was before the vote - I'm talking about the stance immediately before the vote).

It's a nice hypothesis, but I don't feel like it's got a tangible endpoint for Loki et al. that's consistent with their actions.

[Mariele]

You're wrong. Jirix will arrive on the back of the young black dragon's green dragon girlfriend as the last Gate unravels, wielding the IFCC's chalice in one hand and Roy's properly-sized boot in the other.

That can't be right, I don't see how Redclock's niece fits into this at all.

If I had a hammer...

I have been listening to The Weavers a lot lately, and now this is stuck in my head again.

[Corian]

Kill Xykon and then beat Redcloak to within an inch of his life so he'll change his mind?

Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. Redcloak would proudly go meet the Dark One personally rather than do what some Thor worshipper said.

"You're out of healing spells and potions and down to your last 3HP. Now do as we say and contact your god and tell him to cooperate with Thor!"

That's the plan?

Actually, the threat to Redcloak is more serious than that: we'll kill you and rip up your deity's artifact, so their plan is foiled. (I doubt anybody can learn the divine casting without the cloak, and I'll assume creating artifacts is not something a god does every day.) I'm not saying it's a way to get goodwill, but it is a threat that Redcloak would take much more seriously than death.

ETA: If that does not count as "screwing up", I don't know what does. So the meeting would not go proudly.

[Ochotona]

If the three of them are conspiring, then what is their goal?

A high-level goal of "control a gate and dominate the other gods" seems perfectly in keeping with what we know of Loki, Rat, and Tiamat's character.

Why hasn't Loki said 'Nah, risks are too much', rather than 'Lets take a chance to solve this problem forever' (when the latter could not work because no TDO)?

If TDO is actually a long con by Loki et al., of course he's going to urge the other gods to keep trying to negotiate, rather than blow up the world (and along with it his current scheme.) Loki 100% has been established as a character who would violate the god's rules about the snarl and gamble with the world's souls if he thought he stood to personally gain.

What, exactly, do these three gain by continuing to be playing this game when they all know that the ritual is far too long for the gods to allow it to finish (without the foreknowledge that they'd get locked in a godsmoot, as this was before the vote - I'm talking about the stance immediately before the vote).

What they planned to do to stop the gods from remaking the world long enough for Redcloak to get the ritual off is a good question that I don't have a solid theory for. Seems like a surmountable problem though--and it may end up being that Loki was manipulating the Hel-Godsmoot events to create the sort of deadlock that would let their TDO-Redcloak plan proceed.

[danielxcutter]

So how much of this is idle I-don’t-really-expect-this-to-be-right speculation and how much is “I hate Redcloak so I want to drop a bridge on him”?

[AstralFire]

We're too late in the story to have such a late- revealed, fundamental fact (that gods can't do anything quiddity-wise outside their own color) prove to be false.

[Ochotona]

So how much of this is idle I-don’t-really-expect-this-to-be-right speculation and how much is “I hate Redcloak so I want to drop a bridge on him”?

If you're talking to me, I know "TDO is a con by Loki et al" would be a big twist, but it fits well with both the information we've been given and resolves a bunch of meta-textual issues (explains why Loki is getting so much strip time and ties him in to the main plot, explains why Hilgya was reintroduced when she wasn't that necessary from a plot or characterization standpoint, provides a dramatically satisfying comeuppance for Redcloak).

I like Redcloak as a character a lot; he's perhaps one of the most interesting in the entire strip. But any resolution that involves him changing his mind imo would be very inconsistent with his prior behavior and not very satisfying. On the other hand, a resolution in which Redcloak, having made so many sacrifices, finally overcomes Xykon and the Order, only to learn he's been duped the entire time? Juicy, and in Burlew's style for villain climaxes.

[danielxcutter]

I... what? How does that make a good story when at least half the buildup so far would be completely for nothing?

[Ochotona]

I... what? How does that make a good story when at least half the buildup so far would be completely for nothing?

I don't see how that would make any of the buildup "for nothing". The nature of the snarl and gates still matters, Xykon plan still matters, the Order's efforts to stop Xykon/ the world from being remade still matter, quiddity still matters (although it'd mean the fourth quiddity wouldn't be coming from TDO), the IFCC's plots re V still matter, etc.

The only plot threads it really upends are Redcloak's and Loki/Thor/Hel's, and it does so in an interesting, dramatic way that's consistent with the hints we've been given and the characterization of Redcloak and Loki.

[Patterned_Pike]

That can't be right, I don't see how Redclock's niece fits into this at all.

Her hiding idea was to get polymorphed into a green dragon.

[danielxcutter]

I don't see how that would make any of the buildup "for nothing". The nature of the snarl and gates still matters, Xykon plan still matters, the Order's efforts to stop Xykon/ the world from being remade still matter, quiddity still matters (although it'd mean the fourth quiddity wouldn't be coming from TDO), the IFCC's plots re V still matter, etc.

The only plot threads it really upends are Redcloak's and Loki/Thor/Hel's, and it does so in an interesting, dramatic way that's consistent with the hints we've been given and the characterization of Redcloak and Loki.

The gods have had billions, maybe even trillions of years to figure this out. The purple quiddity being a mix of Rat's and Tiamat's makes no sense because the reason TDO's quiddity is so valuable is because the current pantheons only have three and the Snarl has four. Like seriously, this is Order of the Stick, not Loki And Co. Con The Multiverse.