#1231 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Well gods getting calls from their clerics seems to be their purview entirely; whether they decide to send it to an automatic response system or spend 10 minutes chatting is up to them.

Headcanon: Most gods have more important things to do than play "what color is the bad guy's shirt" with a ten thousand clerics a day. Especially The Dark One, who is a new god and is alone in his pantheon and thus probably has all sorts of god things he has to take care of (metaphorically rebuilding the abandoned house that he found entirely on his own while the other pantheons have one god as a plumber, one as an electrician, one as a gardner, etc etc). Hel, having zero clerics, could afford to spend time with hers, especially as he was cosmically important for her, just as Durkon is cosmically important for Thor.

[danielxcutter]

Headcanon: Most gods have more important things to do than play "what color is the bad guy's shirt" with a ten thousand clerics a day. Especially The Dark One, who is a new god and is alone in his pantheon and thus probably has all sorts of god things he has to take care of (metaphorically rebuilding the abandoned house that he found entirely on his own while the other pantheons have one god as a plumber, one as an electrician, one as a gardner, etc etc). Hel, having zero clerics, could afford to spend time with hers, especially as he was cosmically important for her, just as Durkon is cosmically important for Thor.

Basically, yes.

[Squire Doodad]

Headcanon: Most gods have more important things to do than play "what color is the bad guy's shirt" with a ten thousand clerics a day. Especially The Dark One, who is a new god and is alone in his pantheon and thus probably has all sorts of god things he has to take care of (metaphorically rebuilding the abandoned house that he found entirely on his own while the other pantheons have one god as a plumber, one as an electrician, one as a gardner, etc etc). Hel, having zero clerics, could afford to spend time with hers, especially as he was cosmically important for her, just as Durkon is cosmically important for Thor.

Yeah, pretty much. The gods are awfully fond of mortals, too, so I think it's a "get your affairs in order" thing rather than them disliking communes period.
I imagine some of the demigods actually respond to Communes and chat with their upper-tier priests from time to time, but anyone with a significant following would quickly run out of time or patience.

[Ochotona]

Headcanon: Most gods have more important things to do than play "what color is the bad guy's shirt" with a ten thousand clerics a day. Especially The Dark One, who is a new god and is alone in his pantheon and thus probably has all sorts of god things he has to take care of

It is hard for me to imagine what could possibly be more important to The Dark One than the success or failure of his highest level cleric on the cusp of seizing control of the gate that would let him dominate all other gods.

Some of the other reasons in this thread why TDO might not ever talk to Redcloak are plausible, but "he's just too busy" seems like a real stretch.

[Squire Doodad]

It is hard for me to imagine what could possibly be more important to The Dark One than the success or failure of his highest level cleric on the cusp of seizing control of the gate that would let him dominate all other gods.

Some of the other reasons in this thread why TDO might not ever talk to Redcloak are plausible, but "he's just too busy" seems like a real stretch.

Maybe Redcloak never learned Commune?

[danielxcutter]

Has Redcloak, y'know, ever used a Commune himself?

Maybe he doesn't because he's scared he's been wrong. I dunno.

[Squire Doodad]

Has Redcloak, y'know, ever used a Commune himself?

Maybe he doesn't because he's scared he's been wrong. I dunno.

I imagine he either doesn't have it because few clerics ever get a response, because that was a spell slot he needed to put Enhanced Fool-Smiting on, or because he's afraid that if he talks to the god and actually explains his thoughts, they'll settle on something that takes away what RC has been working on for the last 20 years.

Imagine if RC Communed with TDO after Jirix came back, and then was able to actually get an explanation about what had happened. Imagine if "Don't mess this up" was meant to imply "You're putting a lot on the line by going after the Snarl when Gobbotopia needs to thrive. I trust you, but you better not mess this up by aiming for the grand prize when you've already won".

Though, most likely, RC is citing the first two to justify his actual fears of the third.

[Peelee]

It is hard for me to imagine what could possibly be more important to The Dark One than the success or failure of his highest level cleric on the cusp of seizing control of the gate that would let him dominate all other gods.

Some of the other reasons in this thread why TDO might not ever talk to Redcloak are plausible, but "he's just too busy" seems like a real stretch.

He's the sole god of three entire races*, all of whom may have any number of clerics, favored souls, divine crusaders, etc. etc., along with the non-class-level priests, shamans, and just general worshippers. Tell me, what are a god's duties? I sure don't know, so to me, saying that he can't have anything more important seems equally presumptuous to saying that he has tons of things more important (at least, at the moment). And both assumptions being equal, one fits the text while the other doesn't.

* Not counting racial variants, such as aquatic goblins/hobgoblins, which we know exist in Stickworld.

[Ochotona]

He's the sole god of three entire races, all of whom may have any number of clerics, favored souls, divine crusaders, etc. etc., along with the non-class-level priests, shamans, and just general worshippers. Tell me, what are a god's duties? I sure don't know, so to me, saying that he can't have anything more important seems equally presumptuous t0 saying that he has tons of things more important (at least, at the moment). Znd both assumptions being equal, one fits the text while the other doesn't.

Are any of those various other followers on the verge of either securing TDO the leverage to survive, or triggering the unmaking of the world? Are any of those other followers the target of a persuasion campaign from a significant fraction of the rest of the gods?

We've been told nothing to indicate TDO has other issues of a similar scale elsewhere in the world. I guess its possible but there's not much basis in the text for that reading--especially since a bunch of other powers--Thor, Hel, the IFCC--seem to be tracking things closely.

[Peelee]

Are any of those various other followers on the verge of either securing TDO the leverage to survive, or triggering the unmaking of the world? Are any of those other followers the target of a persuasion campaign from a significant fraction of the rest of the gods?

We've been told nothing to indicate TDO has other issues of a similar scale elsewhere in the world. I guess its possible but there's not much basis in the text for that reading--especially since a bunch of other powers--Thor, Hel, the IFCC--seem to be tracking things closely.

By word of author, it is now too late for the gods to kill The Dark One as a deity, and in-comic, the gods themselves don't even know if he can survive the transition between worlds (which TDO will have less information on). TDO also, so far as we know, is not aware that this isn't simply the second world, and his potential cosmic importance - so far as we can tell, Redcloak is less important to him than Durkon is to Thor, because we know that Thor is fully aware of all the implications of TDO's existence while we don't know that TDO is (and have every reason to suspect he does not, in fact, know this).

Again, do you know what a god's duties comprise? Because if so, I would love to find out, but if not, it seems remarkably presumptuous to say that one person cannot imagine what might be more important so it is unlikely that there is anything more important.

[Squire Doodad]

By word of author, it is now too late for the gods to kill The Dark One as a deity, and in-comic, the gods themselves don't even know if he can survive the transition between worlds (which TDO will have less information on). TDO also, so far as we know, is not aware that this isn't simply the second world, and his potential cosmic importance - so far as we can tell, Redcloak is less important to him than Durkon is to Thor, because we know that Thor is fully aware of all the implications of TDO's existence while we don't know that TDO is (and have every reason to suspect he does not, in fact, know this).

Again, do you know what a god's duties comprise? Because if so, I would love to find out, but if not, it seems remarkably presumptuous to say that one person cannot imagine what might be more important so it is unlikely that there is anything more important.

I'd argue Redcloak is still pretty important to TDO. If I had to guess, this is something on RC's end

[Ochotona]

Again, do you know what a god's duties comprise? Because if so, I would love to find out, but if not, it seems remarkably presumptuous to say that one person cannot imagine what might be more important so it is unlikely that there is anything more important.

All either of us know is what's been written in the strip, and there's been zero indication that TDO has any other major irons in the fire. To the contrary, what little we've been told about TDO has him laser focused on his plan about the gates. Nor have we ever been told that the gods have a bunch of time-consuming scut work they have to handle.

"TDO is too busy to talk to Redcloak" isn't a completely foreclosed take, but its pretty at odds with what we've been shown thus far. (I'd buy this theory more if, say, the strip established there was a struggle for another gate someplace else, or a major goblinoid war on another continent--something concrete to occupy TDO's attention.)

[Wraithfighter]

We've been told nothing to indicate TDO has other issues of a similar scale elsewhere in the world. I guess its possible but there's not much basis in the text for that reading--especially since a bunch of other powers--Thor, Hel, the IFCC--seem to be tracking things closely.

This is a really good point. With Hel, Thor, the IFCC and others having so much focus locked onto what's going on with Redcloak and the Order of the Stick, it certainly is odd that The Dark One doesn't personally speak to Redcloak.

No idea what that means exactly, could just be a Conservation of Details thing to prevent things from getting bloated, or The Dark One not being much of a people-person. Might even be an oversight by Rich, love his work, but every creation has little bits of weirdness in it, part of the act of creation. But... it is at least interesting to think about and consider what it might mean.

[Fyraltari]

He's the sole god of three entire races*
[...]
* Not counting racial variants, such as aquatic goblins/hobgoblins, which we know exist in Stickworld.

"And don't even get Oona started on norkers and nilbogs who get even shorter end of stick!"

[ratfox]

See, the question is how you choose what to change their mind about. Was it a thing where you thought really hard about the opinion you wanted them to have? Were there certain spots on the head that correlated to something, say, vegetables, and hitting the spot flipped their opinion?

I'm probably overthinking it.

Is there a spot I can hit to fix that...?

It's called retrophrenology!

You can go into a shop in Ankh-Morpork and order an artistic temperament with a tendency to introspection.

— Men at Arms

[hamishspence]

Given this strip, I no longer have any reason to suspect this was not a successful Commune in Stickworld (and, given Durkon's and Redcloak's commiserating with each other, I theorize that Commune is rarely successful for whatever reason).

Agreed. At least, an answer "Yes" to "Can we have a conversation", followed by the god activating Remote Sensing and Remote Communication - Remote Sensing to hear everything their worshipper (and everything else within 1 mile or more radius) says, and Remote Communication to talk telepathically or verbally.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...#remoteSensing

Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...eCommunication

Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[arimareiji]

My apologies if somebody already talked about this upthread but...

I'm thinking about Odin's line in the sixth panel. It's a reversal of the idiom "when all you have is a hammer,

Spoiler: collapsed for space

Show

every problem starts to look like a nail" which is about overrelying on a single method to solve issues and how that leds one to try to do thing in utterly inapropriate ways. So is Odin just being kooky or is he actually trying to formulate a complex thought? "When all you have is a nail, every solution starts to look like a hammer" could mean that when faced with a straightforward problem (a nail, a goblin who doesn't want to co-operate) one might consider all possible solutions (negotiations, force) as equally valid when only one is a ctually correct (the metaphorical hammer).

If that reading is correct, then Odin could be trying to tell Durkon and Thor not to follow Roy's plan.

What do you think?

It makes a lot of sense, and I like it even if it doesn't hold up. (^_^)b

---

If Redcloak could find another arcane caster, he'd have to admit that he didn't have to work with Xykon this whole time and all the goblins he sacrificed to keep the relationship going died in vain. Maybe he could work through that but it'd be pretty emotionally devastating to grapple with.

Indeed. Sometimes living with your sins can be a far worse punishment than dying for them.

---

See, the question is how you choose what to change their mind about. Was it a thing where you thought really hard about the opinion you wanted them to have? Were there certain spots on the head that correlated to something, say, vegetables, and hitting the spot flipped their opinion?

I'm probably overthinking it.

Is there a spot I can hit to fix that...?

It's called retrophrenology!

Funny thing, the ongoing march of progress and extensive work with fMRI's have shown phrenology was much like the Weapons of Legacy sourcebook: Great idea, terrible execution. (Which is why it was fun to see the Giant take a humorous poke at it in 303, while also showing the healer really was on the right track.)

Specific areas of the brain actually do control very specialized functions, to the extent that it's possible to zap a small target with powerful magnetic pulses to provide relief from anxiety, depression, et al... which I guess you could call retrophrenology. But brain function had jack-all to do with the shape of the skull, let alone crazy people who used it to "prove" their prejudices.

---

Maybe Redcloak never learned Commune?

I guess he didn't read enough theory. (^_~)

[Peelee]

I'd argue Redcloak is still pretty important to TDO.

Oh, absolutely. It's just that without knowledge of the billions of other worlds, and the knowledge that TDO is in a unique position to stop the cycle, Redcloak isn't as important to TDO as Durkon is to Thor. If TDO found that out, I expect things would change.

All either of us know is what's been written in the strip, and there's been zero indication that TDO has any other major irons in the fire. To the contrary, what little we've been told about TDO has him laser focused on his plan about the gates. Nor have we ever been told that the gods have a bunch of time-consuming scut work they have to handle.

"TDO is too busy to talk to Redcloak" isn't a completely foreclosed take, but its pretty at odds with what we've been shown thus far. (I'd buy this theory more if, say, the strip established there was a struggle for another gate someplace else, or a major goblinoid war on another continent--something concrete to occupy TDO's attention.)

Indeed, all we know is that TDO hasn't directly communicated with Redcloak, and yet we have confirmation that he exists and that he still wishes to convey messages to Redcloak through other, less intensive means (eg giving someone who is physically with TDO and going back to physically be with RC imminently a message short enough that it'd count as a free action in combat).

TDO being busy with stuff we don't see because it doesn't matter for the plot solves this perfectly. But you are absolutely free to disbelieve this theory. So what other theories solve this just as nicely (or even better)? I'm not married to the theory, I'm perfectly willing to jump on another train if I think that one's better. It's just.... I've never heard any other theory come even close.

[Oxenstierna]

"... turns out it's a huge advantage for the bad guys in the long run."
*thwack*
"... or is it?"

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think Redcloak has that level of introspection though.

He has his moments, but generally yes. {...I'm turning into Xykon}

Especially The Dark One, who is a new god and is alone in his pantheon and thus probably has all sorts of god things he has to take care of (metaphorically rebuilding the abandoned house that he found entirely on his own while the other pantheons have one god as a plumber, one as an electrician, one as a gardner, etc etc).

*golf clap*

I imagine some of the demigods actually respond to Communes and chat with their upper-tier priests from time to time, but anyone with a significant following would quickly run out of time or patience.

Yeah, although I am not sure that deities run on the same timeline as mortals ... and I think that they can multitask.

Indeed. Sometimes living with your sins can be a far worse punishment than dying for them. (Which is why it was fun to see the Giant take a humorous poke at it in 303, while also showing the healer really was on the right track.)

One of the few strips in "Haley can't talk" thing that I really enjoyed.

[mashlagoo1982]

Oh, absolutely. It's just that without knowledge of the billions of other worlds, and the knowledge that TDO is in a unique position to stop the cycle, Redcloak isn't as important to TDO as Durkon is to Thor. If TDO found that out, I expect things would change.


Indeed, all we know is that TDO hasn't directly communicated with Redcloak, and yet we have confirmation that he exists and that he still wishes to convey messages to Redcloak through other, less intensive means (eg giving someone who is physically with TDO and going back to physically be with RC imminently a message short enough that it'd count as a free action in combat).

TDO being busy with stuff we don't see because it doesn't matter for the plot solves this perfectly. But you are absolutely free to disbelieve this theory. So what other theories solve this just as nicely (or even better)? I'm not married to the theory, I'm perfectly willing to jump on another train if I think that one's better. It's just.... I've never heard any other theory come even close.

Another theory...

We know that the belief of their followers shape the deities in some form or another.

Perhaps TDO does not want followers to become too familiar.
It maybe difficult to maintain the image or status as deity of revenge if your followers think you are pretty swell.

So, TDO is intentionally being aloof in action to keep the status quo with followers... maybe?
This is probably not the only reason, but it could play a part.

[Ochotona]

I think the most natural interpretation of what we've been shown is that The Dark One is behaving unusually, compared to the other Gods and extraplanars, by not more directly communicating with Redcloak. That fact coupled with the extreme lack of contact TDO has with other gods outside of Loki/Tiamat/Rat, and the lack of information we the readers have been shown about TDO, is a sign that something significant about TDO is being hidden.

[ebarde]

Redcloak needs to understand that even he can't put in the time and effort to make his deity notice him if the other party isn't willing to do the same. Poor guy.

[bunsen_h]

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...eCommunication

Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.

I'm reminded of Verra, the Demon Goddess in Steven Brust's Dragaera series. When she's physically present and talking with a small group of people, each of them tends to hear her say different things.

TDO being busy with stuff we don't see because it doesn't matter for the plot solves this perfectly. But you are absolutely free to disbelieve this theory. So what other theories solve this just as nicely (or even better)? I'm not married to the theory, I'm perfectly willing to jump on another train if I think that one's better. It's just.... I've never heard any other theory come even close.

It could be one of those things where Redcloak needs to grow as a person before he'll be able to do something TDO needs, and the only way that can happen is for TDO to not talk with him.

Or TDO is constantly trying to reach him, but Redcloak is always wearing the Cloak inside-out to hide a couple of permanent stains and minor tears, which blocks communication. Neither of them realize this; each thinks that he's being ignored by the other.

We know that the belief of their followers shape the deities in some form or another.

Perhaps Redcloak is utterly convinced, unconsciously, that he's not worthy of the job -- there's some (weak) supporting evidence for this in Start of Darkness. And that TDO will never communicate with him, which then causes that to happen.

[UnintensifiedFa]

My first guess into this discrepancy is just that TDO is younger and less powerful than other gods, and that a direct conversation with a communing cleric is simply something beyond his current abilities. Remember these other Gods have had nigh-infinite time to hone their abilities to perfection, but TDO came about much, much more recently, it stands to reason that he might be more limited in the scope of what he can do.

And he chose to send a message through Jirix because it was the best way that he knew how.

Remember Gods like Thor can remember each individual follower and world in perfect detail, I'd imagine that adjusting to that level of near-omniscience would be difficult for someone who was once a Mortal, like the Dark One. Godly things probably just aren't as easy for him as anyone else.

Plus, I think TDO currently believes that Redcloak has a handle on the situation, and trusts him to get what needs to be done, done.

[ebarde]

Maybe the Dark One thinks that by being obtuse and not communicating with Redcloak directly, that will only make him want even more willing to push himself harder. If he feels he's failing the Dark One, he'll be always on his toes instead of being confident that everything is according to the plan.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Maybe the Dark One thinks that by being obtuse and not communicating with Redcloak directly, that will only make him want even more willing to push himself harder. If he feels he's failing the Dark One, he'll be always on his toes instead of being confident that everything is according to the plan.

I actually really like this, it's both compelling as a motivation, and it seems fitting for both Redcloak and an Evil god. Remember, Redcloak needs the Dark one, there is no other god that he believes can grant him what he wants.

In all honesty, I think the Dark One's relative lack of direct communication probably stems from multiple converging factors, like this, but also his business and relative newness as a God. At least, that's what I'm going with until we see otherwise.

[danielxcutter]

This might not be the reason, but in D&D knowing how to use your abilities is just as if even not more important than what they are. Gods like Hel and Thor have had billions, maybe even trillions of years to figure these things out. TDO has like a few centuries.

So yeah, I can see that theory being a thing.

[Quizatzhaderac]

My money is on Redcloak being subconsciously worried that TDO won't share his sunk cost fallacy. Actual practical concerns being present, but not paramount.

Nor have we ever been told that the gods have a bunch of time-consuming scut work they have to handle.

The gods must be busy.

The outer planes are at continuous war with each other, this has been referenced, particularly that TDO needs an army in the afterlife.

Also, maybe there are Lovecraftian things from outside "reality" trying to claw their way in? That seems like that might be a thing in the setting.

Considering Doylist reasons: the gods can't be telling main characters exactly what to do and how to do it. The main characters are only main characters because they decide stuff.

Hel and Greg (Wednesday nights on ABC) are a special case, because the audience spent a lot of time inside Durkon's head seeing how Durkon and Greg interpreted events.