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Thread: Poll: V or I?

  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Poll: V or I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bundin View Post
    No time taken to try and explain things to Inky, even on a superficial level, not a moment spared for the children. While they did want to save their family, that was a secondary concern, as shown immediately after.

    Enter the next justification: "I am willing to suffer through personal hardship because the world needs saving!". Sounds pretty noble, right. Unfortunately, it is equally untrue as the "have to save them" spiel. If it was only remotely true, V would have spent time to explain, to talk, to comfort, to show them that they are not just the monster that just killed, reanimated, tortured, and finally disintegrated a dragon.
    V has been pretty well established as being bad at comforting people, expressing their emotions and understanding those of others, and has low charisma in general. I don't think the fact that they didn't effectively know how to connect with Inkyrius at that moment is evidence that they didn't care, or that their wellbeing wasn't a primary concern.

    I got the impression V's concern over their family, (and also Haley), was completely genuine, and that's why they completely fell apart during DSTP (as opposed to at any other time during the adventure). Their pride just compels them to believe they're the smartest and most competent, and therefore the only one really capable of saving anyone/fixing anything. So they see more personal power as the answer, since it precludes the need to depend on anyone else. And letting go of that power at that moment felt impossible, since there was still so much left to fix.
    Last edited by Potatopeelerkin; 2021-04-19 at 11:21 AM.
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    I can understand I's stance, but ultimately my opinion is closer with V's. The information she possessed at the time was:

    1. She has utterly enormous, cosmic power for a VERY LIMITED TIME, with no realistic way to re-acquire even an appreciable fraction of it once lost.
    2. Xykon is an epic level contender (with high level support) and there isn't enough time to bridge that gap before he could complete the gate ritual and conquer/ruin the world.
    3. Agreeing to I's proposal that she let go of those powers and stick around to resolve their (very real) family issues would be to functionally damn the lives of everyone Xykon's would go on to oppress.

    Were their ulterior motives, regarding V's enormous pride? Absolutely. Inky even called her out on it pretty explicitly. I sympathize and even ultimately agree with him that he was never V's primary priority. What I cannot agree with is allowing hundreds of thousands, likely millions, to suffer and dye horribly under an undead tyrant with serious boredom issues when the Splice was, bar none, the strongest a member of the Order was ever likely to be. Inky didn't have the full context of course, so not judging that as such, but still, V took a gamble and lost, but with all that was on the line? I think it was the better option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reathin View Post
    I can understand I's stance, but ultimately my opinion is closer with V's. The information she possessed at the time was:

    1. She has utterly enormous, cosmic power for a VERY LIMITED TIME, with no realistic way to re-acquire even an appreciable fraction of it once lost.
    2. Xykon is an epic level contender (with high level support) and there isn't enough time to bridge that gap before he could complete the gate ritual and conquer/ruin the world.
    3. Agreeing to I's proposal that she let go of those powers and stick around to resolve their (very real) family issues would be to functionally damn the lives of everyone Xykon's would go on to oppress.

    Were their ulterior motives, regarding V's enormous pride? Absolutely. Inky even called her out on it pretty explicitly. I sympathize and even ultimately agree with him that he was never V's primary priority. What I cannot agree with is allowing hundreds of thousands, likely millions, to suffer and dye horribly under an undead tyrant with serious boredom issues when the Splice was, bar none, the strongest a member of the Order was ever likely to be. Inky didn't have the full context of course, so not judging that as such, but still, V took a gamble and lost, but with all that was on the line? I think it was the better option.
    1. Saving lives was not V's priority either. V even said that explicitly after Xykon noted V didn't have any heroic vibe and V responded ''My power exceeds yours!''
    2. Xykon was far cry from even going on with his world conquest at that point, and was basically chilling his ass bone under a gateless rift. If anybody threatened millions to suffer, it was V on a spliced power trip.
    3. V could muster control of the splices for weeks, as elves don't need to sleep.
    Last edited by Mike Havran; 2021-04-19 at 04:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Havran View Post
    1. Saving lives was not V's priority either. V even said that explicitly after Xykon noted V didn't have any heroic vibe and V responded ''My power exceeds yours!''
    2. Xykon was far cry from even going on with his world conquest at that point, and was basically chilling his ass bone under a gateless rift. If anybody threatened millions to suffer, it was V on a spliced power trip.
    3. V could muster control of the splices for weeks, as elves don't need to sleep.
    Oh, but V was CLEARLY desperate for time, every second counted, this is demonstrated by the way that V had plenty of time to show off by casually spending several rounds committing genocide, but couldn't spare even a single round to teleport the injured children to a healer. :)

    What are the children's names again, V seems to have spent a fair number of rounds in their presence for the first time in a couple of years, as a loving parent V must have used their names at least once. Or at least done something to show how much V cares. Talking is a free action after all.

    Actually, never mind, I think V did an EXCELLENT job of showing just what V cared about and what V thought was worth V's time. V's desperate lack of time is demonstrated only by V's complete failure to spend any time at all on the most important things.
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2021-04-19 at 08:58 PM.

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    Vaarsuvius's first question when the dragon was dead was to make sure that Inkyrius and the children were effectively alright - only when this was confirmed did they move to the secondary task of necromancy and genocide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Vaarsuvius's first question when the dragon was dead was to make sure that Inkyrius and the children were effectively alright - only when this was confirmed did they move to the secondary task of necromancy and genocide.
    I mean, if there safety actually was the primary concern there was no reason to do that last part at all. They could have also moved to get them immediate medical attention.

    Really, the story seems pretty clear about Vaarsuvius's motivations, I'm not seeing the point in trying to treat their rationalizations at the time as anything other than rationalizations, when the story and character isn't even doing that.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: Poll: V or I?

    Sounds like a highly-personal question that nobody here has standing to debate in public.

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    Default Re: Poll: V or I?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Vaarsuvius's first question when the dragon was dead was to make sure that Inkyrius and the children were effectively alright - only when this was confirmed did they move to the secondary task of necromancy and genocide.
    There's a vast gulf between not having "immediately life-threatening wounds" and being effectively alright.
    Last edited by hroțila; 2021-04-20 at 05:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Oh, but V was CLEARLY desperate for time, every second counted, this is demonstrated by the way that V had plenty of time to show off by casually spending several rounds committing genocide, but couldn't spare even a single round to teleport the injured children to a healer. :)

    What are the children's names again, V seems to have spent a fair number of rounds in their presence for the first time in a couple of years, as a loving parent V must have used their names at least once. Or at least done something to show how much V cares. Talking is a free action after all.

    Actually, never mind, I think V did an EXCELLENT job of showing just what V cared about and what V thought was worth V's time. V's desperate lack of time is demonstrated only by V's complete failure to spend any time at all on the most important things.
    All this is moot, since even I. doesn't care to ask if V. can heal the kids or teleport them to a healer, I. even take the kids in his arms without thinking not even for a moment to say, "Hey, since you have this power, can you fix the kids or teleport them to a cleric?"

    I. only cares about bickering with V with the "I thought I have some saying about your soul" (and that alone was soooo cringe) and "stop the splicing now... you don't love me enough" (which, mind you, I think the latter part beings true, as well the inverse: I. didn't love V, because V was the wizard interested in his studies, I. at most loves some imaginary V. created in his mind).


    If we want to talk about negligent parents, both of them quite qualify, in this situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    All this is moot, since even I. doesn't care to ask if V. can heal the kids or teleport them to a healer, I. even take the kids in his arms without thinking not even for a moment to say, "Hey, since you have this power, can you fix the kids or teleport them to a cleric?"

    I. only cares about bickering with V with the "I thought I have some saying about your soul" (and that alone was soooo cringe) and "stop the splicing now... you don't love me enough" (which, mind you, I think the latter part beings true, as well the inverse: I. didn't love V, because V was the wizard interested in his studies, I. at most loves some imaginary V. created in his mind).

    If we want to talk about negligent parents, both of them quite qualify, in this situation.
    No, V's misbehavior is not moot because Inky didn't do X or Y or Z. Consider, perhaps, that Inky knows V is an arcane caster and therefore can't heal. Or that V is incapable of teleporting, which would certainly make their long absence more harshly felt. This is armchair D&D-style relationship diagnosis, picking apart how Inky is making "sub-optimal" conversation choices without accounting for the big picture here.

    Which is that V showed up with a scary new look and loads of scary new powers, eviscerated an Adult Black Dragon in front of Inky and the kids, and then implied that they were the reason the ABD came to kill Inky & the kids. V barely gives a thought to comforting, embracing, or tending to their badly injured family after killing ABD -- instead, their top priority is to flex their new magic muscles on the most gratuitous act of magical slaughter possible.

    The people justifying V's behavior are looking at this situation through a thick, thick lens of Main Character Syndrome. V was a horrible spouse and parent. You can be a horrible spouse and parent and still want to save your family from a fate worse than death.

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    Default Re: Poll: V or I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    If we want to talk about negligent parents, both of them quite qualify, in this situation.
    I can't get on board with Inkyrius as a negligent parent: been doing the lion's share of the child rearing, has Inky.

    As someone who has a share in the "Can this marriage be saved?" problem contribution - yeah, it's a two way street.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-04-20 at 09:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    No, V's misbehavior is not moot because Inky didn't do X or Y or Z. Consider, perhaps, that Inky knows V is an arcane caster and therefore can't heal. Or that V is incapable of teleporting,
    I. had seen just a minute before V. popping in from nowhere. So, if anything, he knows that, in that specific situation, V can teleport.
    And yes, the fact I. doesn't do a thing to help the kids, makes the argument "I. is right because V didn't help the kids" completely moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I can't get on board with Inkyrius as a negligent parent: been doing the lion's share of the child rearing, has Inky.
    I can't judge what I can't see.
    I. stayed at home more time and took care for the kids -presumably- well? Maybe.
    Did I. thought to find a way to heal them immediately? No.
    Did I. even thought to take care or their emotional issues before starting to bicker with V.? No.
    He didn't do so much better than V, in the specific situation.
    (And honestly he doesn't ring as parent of the year to me,.)
    Last edited by Dr.Zero; 2021-04-20 at 10:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    I. had seen just a minute before V. popping in from nowhere. So, if anything, he knows that, in that specific situation, V can teleport.
    And yes, the fact I. doesn't do a thing to help the kids, makes the argument "I. is right because V didn't help the kids" completely moot.
    Inkyrius immediately lept towards their kids as they were unnailed from the tree then tried to protect them from the fiend they believed to have possessed Vaarsuvius with a stick. And later took them in their arms, presumably to carry them to somewhere they could be treated with.

    Inkyrius has no bloody context for what's happening unlike Vaarsuvius, confusion is to be expected. What's Vaarsuvius's excuse for committing genocide?
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    Yeah the notion that Inkyrius didn't try to help or comfort the kids is patently false.
    636
    639
    641
    642
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    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Yeah the notion that Inkyrius didn't try to help or comfort the kids is patently false.
    636
    639
    641
    642
    In fairness:
    In 636 the advise they gave the children was helpful to them also.
    In 639 during the 12 seconds it would take Vaarsuvius to cast two non-quickened spells they didn't actually manage to reach the children at all.
    In 641 they still hadn't picked them up (or had and put them down again) and then threatened an elf powerful enough to defeat a powerful dragon and vindictive enough to slaughter everyone related to said dragon with a stick while the children were still present.
    In 642 they could have focused on 'help the kids - we will talk about this later' instead they provoked the same elf above to actual anger, then set an ultimatum, then preempted the ultimatum with jumping to the conclusion of what said a ultimatum would be.

    I am not seeing them doing much helping or comforting of the kids.

    Now in further fairness to Inkyrius it would have been a stressful situation so we can't expect perfect behaviour - but the same can be said about Vaarsuvius.

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    In 636, in view of Inkyrius's subsequent behaviour, it's like super obvious that they're trying to protect the kids first and foremost. Your reading is not fair, it's beyond cynical, and it's just playing devil's advocate.
    In 639, Inkyrius is released by V on the third pannel. They couldn't reach the children before that, which means they rushed to the kids literally as soon as they could.
    In 641, Inkyrius is very obviously wielding that stick in self-defense and for the defense of the children. You can try to argue it was unwise, but it surely showed concern for the kids.
    In 642, you're faulting Inkyrius for taking some time to speak to V and see what was going on (and potentially to save their very soul), and holding it against Inkyrius to exonerate V, i.e. the person making the children shriek in terror in that same page.

    You're not being fair at all, I think.
    Last edited by hroțila; 2021-04-20 at 10:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    In fairness:
    [...]
    in further fairness
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-04-20 at 10:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    In 636, in view of Inkyrius's subsequent behaviour, it's like super obvious that they're trying to protect the kids first and foremost. Your reading is not fair, it's beyond cynical, and it's just playing devil's advocate.
    There subsequent behaviour cannot be used as evidence of good behaviour if said subsequent behaviour is also in question.

    In 639, Inkyrius is released by V on the third pannel. They couldn't reach the children before that, which means they rushed to the kids literally as soon as they could.
    Create Undead and Familicide being two spells would normally take a minimum of 1 round each - so twelve seconds after Inkyrius was released.

    In 641, Inkyrius is very obviously wielding that stick in self-defense and for the defense of the children. You can try to argue it was unwise, but it surely showed concern for the kids.
    I actually read it more as wielding a stick in great confusion and that confusion leading to an angry responce rather then any dedicated plan - weather to drive out demon or protect the kids.

    In 642, you're faulting Inkyrius for taking some time to speak to V and see what was going on (and potentially to save their very soul), and holding it against Inkyrius to exonerate V, i.e. the person making the children shriek in terror in that same page.
    I am more faulting them for putting their own feelings above the interests of the children.

    You're not being fair at all, I think.
    I think I am being fair to the arguement that Inkyrius 'didn't try to help or comfort the kids' note there is an arguement that they did try to comfort the kids also (comforting words, gathering them up, stepping in front of them etc)

    My own personal opinion is that Vaarsuvius got drunk on power after feeling powerless for months and lashed out with that power at a target that had humiliated them and threatened their loved ones, Inkyrius meanwhile likely had years of brewing resentment and during a deeply disturbing reunion allowed that resentment out.
    I don't think either of them were particularly thinking about the children at the time.

    As parents in general Inkyrius comes across better as they are the one raising the kids in the formative years - but from the prespective of 'take care of the kids' they both could have handled that situation a lot better.

    People seems to be willing to cut Inkyrius a lot more slack then they cut Vaarsuvius in my view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    In the context I am using it it means to be fair to the arguement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    My own personal opinion is that Vaarsuvius got drunk on power after feeling powerless for months and lashed out with that power at a target that had humiliated them and threatened their loved ones, Inkyrius meanwhile likely had years of brewing resentment and during a deeply disturbing reunion allowed that resentment out.
    I don't think either of them were particularly thinking about the children at the time.

    As parents in general Inkyrius comes across better as they are the one raising the kids in the formative years - but from the prespective of 'take care of the kids' they both could have handled that situation a lot better.

    People seems to be willing to cut Inkyrius a lot more slack then they cut Vaarsuvius in my view.
    I agree completely with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post

    People seems to be willing to cut Inkyrius a lot more slack then they cut Vaarsuvius in my view.
    I'd imagine because one has earned it, and the other hasn't. Inkyrius is to be assumed to be a loving and caring parent, so they can be forgiven for not acting perfectly (whatever that would be) in an incredibly stressful and life-threatening situation in which they are still shown to be taking their children into account. Vaarsuvius is an admitted terrible spouse and parent who has been gone away from years.

    They aren't talked about equally in these situations because their characters and mistakes aren't equal.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Can we also acknowledge that "temporary ignores the children to work out why their mate apparently turned into a hellish genocidal monster and acknowledge that their marriage just isn't working out" and "ignores the children after six years of abscence so they can bring back a dragon from the dead to further torment them by commiting genocide" aren't comparable?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    I think it's obvious from the strip that the kids were alright (physically at least) and doesn't need medical help. So neither I or V were negligent about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    I think it's obvious from the strip that the kids were alright (physically at least) and doesn't need medical help. So neither I or V were negligent about that.
    For me it is pretty obvious (also confirmed by ABD) that both kids had both of their legs broken, at the very least. That's probably something a parent should be slightly concerned about.
    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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    A strained metaphor of unknown utility:
    Subjective discussions are like sailing in open seas.
    The more common frames of reference exist, the more light there is.
    The more emotive and personal investment in the topic exists, the higher the wind and waves are.
    Points of voluntary agreement are like proximity to solid ground and safety. It's absolutely natural to seek them.
    But the need to have others agree (when they don't) is more like the shoals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Can we also acknowledge that "temporary ignores the children to work out why their mate apparently turned into a hellish genocidal monster and acknowledge that their marriage just isn't working out" and "ignores the children after six years of abscence so they can bring back a dragon from the dead to further torment them by commiting genocide" aren't comparable?
    No.
    For a lot of reasons.

    To start with because... no, if one is a parent and his kids are laying on ground with broken legs, even just normal instincts is to take care of them. To resolve your marital issue, there is time later. (This lays on both on them)

    Then, again, because I. wasn't interested at all to what V. wanted -or needed- to do, he even stopped with a harh "no" V's trying to talk, so he wasn't trying to work out any "why". I. was interested to see V. putting him at first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    I think it's obvious from the strip that the kids were alright (physically at least) and doesn't need medical help. So neither I or V were negligent about that.
    The dragon spelled out that they had broken limbs. So no. The question is not whether they both went "eh, they'll be just fine"; the question is whether "leave those injuries to my mate to worry about while I torture my defeated opponent and then express plans to promptly teleport away" is more or less condemnation-worthy than...

    ...I realized attempting to write the next part that there's no way I can summarize the "Inkyrius was more culpable" perspective that doesn't sound nakedly far beyond absurd to me, so I'm just going to stop there.
    Last edited by Kish; 2021-04-20 at 05:12 PM.
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    This, in a nutshell.
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    Default Re: Poll: V or I?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    People seems to be willing to cut Inkyrius a lot more slack then they cut Vaarsuvius in my view.
    The comparative lack of deals with fiends, genocide and sadistic gloating while torturing a defeated enemy might have something to do with it.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gulaghar and Purple Eagle.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Poll: V or I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    No.
    For a lot of reasons.

    To start with because... no, if one is a parent and his kids are laying on ground with broken legs, even just normal instincts is to take care of them. To resolve your marital issue, there is time later. (This lays on both on them)

    Then, again, because I. wasn't interested at all to what V. wanted -or needed- to do, he even stopped with a harh "no" V's trying to talk, so he wasn't trying to work out any "why". I. was interested to see V. putting him at first place.
    V. claimed they did this to save them. I. states that if this is true, thank you, and that also V. should immediately undo the fiendish deal. V. then immediately try to come up with a bunch of rationalizations and I. cut them off. This is perfectly understandable, despite your claims to the contrary.

    I think the thing you're (willfully) missing here is that the benefit of the doubt is not guaranteed, it can be lost. V. had lost because of, well, everything.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Poll: V or I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    The comparative lack of deals with fiends, genocide and sadistic gloating while torturing a defeated enemy might have something to do with it.
    If Rich wanted to unambiguously communicate the idea “what V is doing right now is evil”, he should have given V little fangs and dressed them in an comically evil overlord outfit.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Dr.Zero's Avatar

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    Default Re: Poll: V or I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    V. claimed they did this to save them. I. states that if this is true, thank you, and that also V. should immediately undo the fiendish deal. V. then immediately try to come up with a bunch of rationalizations and I. cut them off. This is perfectly understandable, despite your claims to the contrary.

    I think the thing you're (willfully) missing here is that the benefit of the doubt is not guaranteed, it can be lost. V. had lost because of, well, everything.
    The "rationalizations" ended up in: solving the Azurite problem, saving the Paladin and almost solving X problem definitely.
    No the fact that I buy a knife to cut vegetables doesn't mean that I must stop to use it after doing that, if I notice then it could work for meat too.

    Anyway, more or less as I hoped and suspected, the most interesting rationalizations I see are not in the comic, actually.

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