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Thread: Poll: V or I?
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2021-04-12, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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- Earth and/or not-Earth
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Re: Poll: V or I?
I don't think this is correct. If V only accepted the deal to gain more power and not to save their family, why did they then immediately go save their family? It seems to me that V had two goals (save their family and gain power), and chose the deal rather than the alternative method the IFCC proposed because the deal allowed them to accomplish both of their goals while the alternative method only allowed them to accomplish one of their goals.
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2021-04-12, 09:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2021
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Re: Poll: V or I?
If we talk about what goal prioritization we see V do in the relevant comics, I think it's important to remember (as someone pointed out earlier) that V prioritised reanimating the dragon, enacting horrifying revenge, and then rubbing it in the dragon's face ahead of comforting their injured and terrified family. The argument gets made that V was on the clock and every moment counted, but V spent minutes on this act of vengeance instead of spending minutes helping their loved ones through trauma that V knows V's actions brought on them. V was on their way to immediately leave as soon as the dragon was disintegrated! That's the priorities we see, and that Inkyrius sees.
As for why V went first to stop the dragon and save their family, that's because that was by far the most time sensitive situation.Last edited by Emberlily; 2021-04-12 at 09:57 PM.
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2021-04-13, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Poll: V or I?
Because Rich was setting up the joke on Drawmij's Instant Summons. Rich does put jokes in most strips.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-04-13, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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- Czech Republic
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There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.
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2021-04-13, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Poll: V or I?
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-04-13 at 11:21 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-04-13, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2017
- Location
- CLASSIFIED
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Re: Poll: V or I?
Stop using good evidence and logic that makes sense to refute points, that's my job
Lots of people seem to use blue for sarcasm, I decided I should too
I have joined the ranks of the FFRPeople Here is my character.
Thank you to Linkele for creating my avatar!
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2021-04-13, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2021
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Re: Poll: V or I?
Dramatically it works better since it's a character moment for both V and Blackwing, and it also leads to a fun twist in events.
In-universe, maybe that wizard saw V enter a store with a no spellcasting policy and decided to mess with them by getting them kicked out and ruining their victory with the reveal. Maybe he heard Inkyrius's side of the story and wanted to take V down a peg.
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2021-04-13, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
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- Czech Republic
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Re: Poll: V or I?
That is why I'm confused. I get that the server needs their ''client'' to identify themselves, but no apparent reason why should they provoke them into lethal attacks.
Maybe he heard Inkyrius's side of the story and wanted to take V down a peg.Last edited by Mike Havran; 2021-04-13 at 11:51 AM.
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.
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2021-04-13, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2021
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Re: Poll: V or I?
It's certainly an incredibly risky move but for mid to higher higher level characters death isn't quite as much of a risk as it would be in our world. Several jokes throughout the comic poke fun at how death is just a nuisance to adventurers. Maybe he was even prepared to pull a Belkar's-plan-for-Miko and die to cause V to suffer consequences, then get raised. [edit: His expressions in comic 677 make it seem clear to me this isn't just a business deal for him. He gets very visibly frustrated when it looks as if it doesn't work and very satisfied when it does.]
If the wizard knew about familicide, and thought V could still cast it, then yes that would be a stupid risk to take even with Raise Dead, but we don't kno that's the case.Last edited by Emberlily; 2021-04-13 at 12:03 PM.
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2021-04-13, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2017
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- CLASSIFIED
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Re: Poll: V or I?
Counterpoint: The entirety of Don't Split the Party, plus V's well reasoned argument after Belkar floated the plan you referenced.
This is a stretch, but maybe the instant summons works by sending out a bulleting to a group of wizards around the world, who then stay on the lookout for their target. In that case, the provoker wasn't going after V for the purpose of getting the name, but actually was just that arrogant and self-in the store. Then, part-way through the fight they realized who they were fighting and changed tactics. It's a stretch, but it could work.Stop using good evidence and logic that makes sense to refute points, that's my job
Lots of people seem to use blue for sarcasm, I decided I should too
I have joined the ranks of the FFRPeople Here is my character.
Thank you to Linkele for creating my avatar!
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2021-04-14, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Location
- Magrathea
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Re: Poll: V or I?
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2021-04-14, 01:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2017
Re: Poll: V or I?
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2021-04-14, 04:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2020
Re: Poll: V or I?
The person in the right is I, by sheer virtue of the fact that someone with young kids to raise, not to mention a civilian spouse that couldn't protect them, should never have been out adventuring in the first place.
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2021-04-14, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Poll: V or I?
Welcome to D&D.
Nope. Just gonna say that my wife had to shoulder the 'raise the kids' burden when I was at sea or deployed to a war periods of six months at a time or more. (Granted, I was home once the deployment or war was over, and unlike V was very involved with the family when home. Still am, even though the kids are grown up ...)
The OoTS, since strip one, has not covered a year yet.Spoiler: A year is a long time to be away from one's family, to be sureI had friends who were deployed to OEF and OIF for periods of just over a year
V was, based on the #679 comic, negligent of their shared bond - or maybe took it for granted - even when V was at home. The model seems to be "workaholic who is so focused on profession that their life balance is way out of whack." The 'takes ones spouse for granted' issue is a root cause of marital strife.
If the relationship hadn't featured that core problem, which Blackwing raised, the exception "hey, I really do have to save the world" might have been easier to swallow or accomodate. (or not) But with the habit pattern of "this magic thing comes first" having been formed over a sustained period, this incident becomes "straw that broke camel's back".Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-04-14 at 07:56 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-04-14, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2020
Re: Poll: V or I?
Well, to avoid having an argument on these forums, I'll just say that I thoroughly disagree with your life choices, and I would never personally make the same choice. Though, OFC, if you're from the US, the mortality rate of soldiers in the army due to hostile action seems to be thousands of times smaller than the death rate of adventurers in the OOTS world probably would be, so making a comparison between your situation and V's situation is useless anyway.
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2021-04-14, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2019
Re: Poll: V or I?
I’d like to point out that V didn’t really leave to become an adventurer, that just happened, they just kinda, left for human lands to, I dunno, study magic alone? Which didn’t help Inky get any money or save the world or protect the nation or well do anything of use to anyone but V who got to level up more. Only later, after having spent a significant time in the non elven lands, did V start adventuring, again to get more magic and levels and seemingly also not like, sending any gold back to help their family. Not a good spouse by any means
Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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2021-04-14, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Poll: V or I?
Not a bad point; adventuring is indeed very lethal. (Particularly if one played the original and Pre 3e editions ... and IIRC, Haley's dad did state that he'd been a first edition thief) Survival rate to a level like V or Roy has achieved isn't guaranteed, and is rare.
The core point being raised, though, in the comic I cited was that even before the adventuring did begin, the 'out of balance life style' as regards the quest for arcane excellence was a feature of their relationship, which informs why Inky reached the "straw that broke the camel's back" point finally.
Originally Posted by SchroeswaldLast edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-04-14 at 09:43 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-04-14, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
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Re: Poll: V or I?
Yeah, I don't think Schroeswald's assertion is supported by the text. Every time the comic has brought up V's shortcomings as a partner and parent, it has been in terms of emotional and personal engagement, not in terms of material support. It is possible that there has been financial neglect on top of that, but Inkyrius doesn't bring it up when condeming V in the aftermath of the ABD's attack, and there are never any indications that the family's material needs were not being met.
EDIT: also, this:
I cannot begin to wrap my head around people interpreting the relationship breakdown in a way that doesn't leave V quite thoroughly in the wrong.Last edited by Gurgeh; 2021-04-14 at 10:35 PM.
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2021-04-14, 11:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2017
Re: Poll: V or I?
I haven't taken note of anyone doing so, though that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
Personally, my take would be "From what we see, V's actions are thoroughly in the wrong and certainly the major (if not overwhelming) cause of the breakdown." But imo, it would be rational for people to believe V did some things right (or at least "not wrong"). And I don't think their belief would be incompatible with my take.
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2021-04-15, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2021
Re: Poll: V or I?
[Inkyrius says it's been six years (not since the beginning of the strip, but since V left), though maybe elf years are arguably like reverse dog years.
Agreed with your point though that there was an established pattern even before they left. The six years of absence didn't help either, and probably made it seem like "it's better for the kids to have a sense of stability and just one parent, than a chance or semblance of a second one but they're always left guessing about it."
On the finances, V was fulltime devoted to an apprenticeship to Aarindarius for decades beforehand. They may or may not have received a stipend, but my interpretation is that the baker was actually supporting both of them. I don't personally think V was sending back gold, but I also don't think the lack of it was a problem for Inky. Except I guess in the sense that regularly sending back gold would at least mean regular communication.
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2021-04-15, 03:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2021
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- London
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Re: Poll: V or I?
I
If V truly only wanted to save their family, they would have immediately dropped the soul splice at the start of #639. Everything that happened after that; familicide and threatening I in #642 showed us where their priorities really lay.
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2021-04-15, 03:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Poll: V or I?
For fun lets try this.
Firstly assume that Vaarsuvius was involved intensively with the search for greater arcane power prior to the relationship forming.
Secondly assume that elves live ~5 times longer then a human (figures vary but middle age, old and venerable are roughly five times the age a human would have).
Taking these together that would have Inkyrius effectively getting into a relationship with somebody hyperfocused on their career and then getting mad at them for not almost immediately putting them before said career.
This could be made worse via the adopted children - we don't know how they entered the picture, but between the idea that
1. Vaarsuvius and Inkyrius gave adoption a lot of thought and discussion and signed on knowing the costs and commitment involved.
2. Inkyrius essentially made the decision while Vaarsuvius shrugged and continued with spell research.
I don't think the second option it too unlikely (but we don't know).
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2021-04-15, 03:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Poll: V or I?
We know it took them many years before they started dating, let alone married and adopted so I don't think that assesment is correct.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-04-15, 04:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Poll: V or I?
But we do know that Vaarsuvius is still a fairly young elf - based on the age given in War and XP (and listed on the Geekery trend) and given the ages of the children Vaarsuvius would not have been an adult when the children were born.
It is possible that Inkyrius and Vaarsuvius were a childhood romance which fits with 223 while still having Inkyrius focused on wanting to settle on family life and Vaarsuvius wanting to focus on career - Inkyrius could have been thinking that Vaarsuvius's statements on becoming a powerful wizard was the equivalent of a dream they would grow out of where for Vaarsuvius it was the actual plan.
Consider it like if you were a child/teenager and a friend stating they were going to discover a new planet suitable of sustaining human life - sounds like a fantasy they will grow out of, however at thirty they might have devoted over a decade of their life to astrophysics in the search for planets in the habitable zone for different stars and detailing how to spot planets within that zone and how to rule them out for habitation, written many papers on it, held conferences etc - and still be nowhere close to their goal of an actual planet that is certain to be suitable.
If you get into a relationship with that person in their late teens early/twenties it isn't their fault that you never knew they were serious about the goal they has always been upfront about - and at thirty when they have not went on holidays, not attended family gatherings etc as they were working and researching well a lot of people will sympathise with you but it isn't really the other persons fault for not changing who they were and what their goals were.
To sum up it is possible that Inkyrius didn't take Vaarsuvius's goal and commitment to that goal seriously - if so getting mad at Vaarsuvius is not entirely fair when they pursue it (getting out of the relationship however would likely be fair).
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2021-04-15, 07:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2017
Re: Poll: V or I?
I've gone too long without directly addressing the poll question of "Who was right, during the ABD crisis, V or I?" exactly as worded. (I've tried to touch on it, but mostly gotten lost in the weeds of "their overall relationship".)
I'm assuming the question is supposed to be limited to "with respect to their relationship", not "with respect to the morality/efficacy of V's decisions while Spliced (except inasmuch as they directly affect the relationship, such as "by being witnessed")".
Both, about different aspects. If it were possible to measure with a single unit of weight (R [rightograms] = -W [wrongograms]) and sum it up on a balance sheet, I'd lean toward Inkyrius being "more right". But I think simplifying it thus would be weighing apples against oranges, especially since I believe W ≠ -R as well as 2W ≠ R .
Spoiler: To elaborate,italicizing in keeping with the request for emphasis to make answers easier to spot. "K" for Kyrie, because "I" is too easy to mix up with a first-person pronoun.
- Wrt 1) prioritizing gloating and Familicide over K and the children, and 2) committing it in front of them: V is spectacularly wrong.
- Wrt the threat at the start of 641: It's understandable to react with passionate fury if you think the body of your loved one is under the control of a fiend (panel 8). But 1) if an actual fiend were in control it would invite overwhelming violence, and 2) it's a heck of a way to respond to your loved one if they're in control. K is neither right nor wrong per se, but deeply misguided.
- Wrt tying to explain from 641:8 to 642:3: It's futile from the start of 642 on (K gives them no real chance to do so), but V is doing something right.
- In 642:4, V responds to this frustration with an implicit threat of violence. V is wrong without question.
- K responds with their own explicit, absolute ultimatum. K does so based on incomplete understanding, due to shutting down V's attempts to explain. It's understandable regardless, and may be completely reasonable in the context of a fuller picture, but the question is about this specific crisis. K is wrong for both refusing to listen and the ultimatum, but not without cause.
- V apologizes for disobeying the ultimatum because they "still need to fix everything", and leaves. This one bears mostly on the plot rather than their relationship, but inasmuch as it bears on their relationship it's a mixture of right and wrong. V finally does the most important right thing (backing down from ego), but too late. V is further right to the degree of probability it would have aggravated things to keep talking to someone who refuses to listen, and wrong to the degree of probability K might have backed down and listened if V had kept talking.
Well-said. We simply don't know, but that doesn't sound like an unreasonable surmise -- especially when you consider V's age, as you mentioned in the collapsed portion.
Edit: Minor rewordLast edited by arimareiji; 2021-04-15 at 07:34 AM.
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2021-04-15, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Poll: V or I?
Because V is, quite literally, saving the world at that point when the hard choice had to be made. There isn't a RL analogy for that.
Pick me or your career is the tension before the ABD issue arose for the family. It appears to have been a long running problem for their relationship.
Pick me or pick saving the world is what V was facing after the ABD had been dispatched with.
Inky has no concept of what level V is operating on (and cannot be blamed for that - they are a baker rasing two kids) but here's the objective fact: if the world isn't saved, then Inky and the kids simple don't exist and their souls are eaten. But Inky can't see that (again, they cannot be blamed for that lack of perception) and to add to the sadness of the case V (for whatever reasons) can't or won't spare the time to sell that objective fact to them. We the reader get to see it play out, but Inky is kept in the dark.
So V eats it - V chooses to try and save everyone else in the world and V's family (macro) rather than only the family (micro) as Priority 1. How Inky perceives that, given their track record, is "here we go again, you and your arcane power" which is only partially correct but from Inky's limited perspective completely understandable.
That's one of the prices paid for saving the world.
There Is No Such Thing As A Free LunchLast edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-04-15 at 04:31 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-04-15, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: Poll: V or I?
No. After dealing with the ABD, V was faced with the choice of doing something to help and comfort the traumatized children, or of doing something to save the world, or of taking time out to torture a dead dragon.
V chose the third. If there was time for that, there was plenty of time for something ACTUALLY IMPORTANT and non-evil. But nope.
Then V ran away to claim to be saving the world, but actually, by V's OWN ADMISSION, to rush in and attack X solo to try to show off his power. After V LOST the power, V had a week or so to arrange to cast a sending to try to explain, which would have cost nothing from saving the world, but nope, still not showing any concern for the family.
V didn't need to choose one or the other between saving the world and talking to Inky, but in fact V did choose and chose not to talk to Inky. There was time for everything else, including plenty not done to save the world, but no time for talking to V's spouse or asking after the children V abandoned with serious injuries.
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2021-04-15, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Poll: V or I?
Inkyrius.
If Vaarsuvius meant to say, "I made this bargain because I can do so much good with the power!" they should have said that, not "I made this bargain because of the dragon's imminent threat to you and our children, who I am completely uninterested in arranging healing for!" "Okay, I'll take your word for that, threat over, you can let it go now" was an entirely reasonable response, and it's (minimally) to Vaarsuvius' credit that they didn't try to snow Inkyrius into believing their thought processes were actually even close to the ones Dr. Zero keeps describing for them.
Edited to add:
Either when we look at anything Qarr has ever said and done and realize that he is most certainly not the "will keep the letter of his word, even about such a vague promise as 'I'll help you,' even if it becomes suicidal" robot that the IFCC describe...
...or when Spliced-Vaarsuvius arrives back at the fleet and discovers that Durkon isn't there, causing the plan to break down at the "teleport Vaarsuvius' head to the fleet and assume Vaarsuvius will be resurrected within a round" step.
(There's also, redundantly, the "Spliced-Vaarsuvius finds out that, contrary to what the archfiends said, it's going to take Durkon ten minutes to resurrect Roy, and storms off to face Xykon alone" potential breakpoint if it somehow survived until then.)Last edited by Kish; 2021-04-16 at 12:25 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2021-04-16, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Poll: V or I?
Come on, man, lighten up. How many chances to you get to torture an ancient dragon?
You do offer a decent take on the situation.
I somewhat disagree with your point on V not going off to save the world. V does (did?) in fact "go out to (try and)save the world" (and nearly getting killed by Xykon in the process, hubris being a thing) and is still pursuing that aim - there is nothing else holding V to the Order, and Roy, other than that shared sense of purpose. (first raised in that meeting in Azure City when Roy tears up the contracts).
I am not going to go so far as to say that this is a purely noble purpose on V's part - since I think it is (and is intentionally written to be) at least a little bit self serving on V's part. This assessment is informed by V's discussion with Roy after the wrap up in BRitF: the old "here is my sin, what do I do now?" conversation. V's tentative conclusion seems to me to be that "there may be no atonement, but there might be a chance for atonement/redemption if I first save the world ..."
Before V got-ass-handed-to-self by Xykon and then discovered what they had done, V's attitude was (as I read the character) far more selfish: "My arcane power will be sufficient to save the world" {as a part of OoTS team anyway} which has since shown to be a serious case of overconfidence and arrogance. (See Thor's discussion with Durkon about needing Reddie or an equivalent).Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-04-16 at 08:30 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-04-16, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: Poll: V or I?
(Emphasis mine) Yes, this exactly! Add my voice to the "Was this really ever up for debate?" column.
Nobody's really pointed this out explicitly, but it seems like some commenters are weighing this as an isolated situation and not as the culmination of an entire marriage full of neglect and obsession with the arcane. It is very possible for Vaarsuvius's decision (to hold onto the power even after the ABD was dead) to be objectively the best choice to help the Order and the Azurites and ultimately contribute to saving the world, while still also happening to fit V's desire for ultimate arcane power. Maybe if a different elf were married to Inkyrius and did the same thing, they wouldn't react so strongly because they didn't immediately (and accurately) assume that "this is what you have always really wanted. More than you ever wanted me."
They didn't just accept the deal because it gave them two things instead of one: they accepted the deal because otherwise they "would have to admit that your magic had failed you yet again."
Vaarsuvius didn't just want to save their family. They wanted to be the one who did it. They wanted to be vindicated in their decision to leave in the first place (see V's reasoning on the first panel here). They wanted the power fantasy. V was, essentially, acting like a mall ninja who fantasizes about getting some real-world practical value out of all the chintzy knives and swords they've sunk their money into.
It's entirely possible that the Drawmij guy wasn't even trying to provoke a fight. He might've known about V's tendency to boast of their arcane power, and was hoping for V to bellow out "Fool! I am no mere warlock! I am the powerful wizard Vaarsuvius and you will not disres--" "Served." "*Ribbit* and witnessed"
To my understanding, you just have to identify yourself and take the paper. Or at least, in the joke tropey version found on tv shows.