Space Age Tippyverse

[Destro2119]

So this grew out of a discussion on an older thread I had here, and it is basically me theorycrafting and brainstorming a few ideas for this setting. Here goes:

The basic concept is that the Tippyverse has eventually developed a consolidated world government that leads to a great space age.

Perhaps the beginning of all these events could be an alien ship crashing down on the planet.

The initial campaign elements could be alliances between cities and other cities and also between powerful wilderness creatures like dragons.

Basically everybody agreeing a constant cold war does nothing for them and using their newfound discoveries of their place in the universe to set out to conquer the galaxy for security and resources.

So reclaiming the wilderness could involve Daern's instant fortresses being mass produced, jutting mightily above the trees at certain intervals, aweing the "barbarian kingdoms."

Fortified settlements set up around these fortresses, guarded over/managed by powerful casters and dragons.

And eventually great magitechnological developments, ie starships, replicators, etc. etc.

Perhaps the beginning of all these events could be an alien ship crashing down on the planet.

Some inspirations for this idea came from Dragonstar and Starfinder.

What do you guys think? What elements would develop that would make it different from the average scifi campaign? What special developments would influence PCs? What would some adventure hooks look like?

[Quertus]

Throwing up periodic metal towers in the forest isn't likely to *wow* anyone.

A "shock and awe" approach to other civilizations with Divinations and their own Dragons is likewise of questionable utility.

But quest hooks? There, there's plenty. Here's one:

A strange new corrosive is eating the towers planted on a new planet. Investigate (but understand that you are in indefinite quarantine, with no backup) until / unless the issue is resolved. -or- hunt down and dispose of those who broke quarantine. -or- plan strategies for containment should this unknown agent have already spread to other worlds.

[Destro2119]

Throwing up periodic metal towers in the forest isn't likely to *wow* anyone.

A "shock and awe" approach to other civilizations with Divinations and their own Dragons is likewise of questionable utility.

But quest hooks? There, there's plenty. Here's one:

A strange new corrosive is eating the towers planted on a new planet. Investigate (but understand that you are in indefinite quarantine, with no backup) until / unless the issue is resolved. -or- hunt down and dispose of those who broke quarantine. -or- plan strategies for containment should this unknown agent have already spread to other worlds.

On that first point, I was mostly talking about the initial campaign to resettle the Tippyverse OG planet. Which WOULD awe the "barbarian kingdoms."

Also, any ideas on any future equipment that might be developed for PCs? What about other planets? What if one planet they discover is like modern earth or earth a few decades ago? First contact type things.

[Quertus]

Also, any ideas on any future equipment that might be developed for PCs?

I'm much more into equipment developed *by* the PCs. But this depends on your group.

If your players aren't into the world-building / "make cool stuff" side? Then you've got a choice: what is the tech of the crashed ship?

You can try to answer it by balance and tech level: do you want it to be fantasy, modern, sci-fi? Do you want it to be small potatoes, or the biggest fish? Do you want it fully operational?

You can answer it by familiarity: do you want it to be something that the players will recognize, or something mysterious?

And - highly related to the previous question - I'm being completely serious when I ask, do you want it to be cool? This is serious - is this a tool, or something cool in its own right?

Let's say I chose, somewhat indecisively, *mostly* tool, *partially* recognizable, fully operational sci-fi, with a dash of big fish.

So, my backstory is that… an Imperial Star Destroyer came here to make repairs, and was rammed by a Shadow Warlock, sending both crashing into the planet. The jumbled ruins contain three distinct technology bases.

The first breakthrough by adventurers was to Clone / Simulacrum / Ice Assassin the organic technology. Because of course they did. And that was a disaster. In essence, "Cthulhu ate the Wizard, and started killing everyone else. Eventually, Cthulhu was brought down."

The second breakthrough, by the next adventuring party, was to create undead from the corpses of the ships' crews, give them masks to teach them Common, and ask them what they know. They were surprisingly ignorant, but laser rifles and whole books worth of ideas (like creating gravity, or shoving a ship through Cthulhu's brain to keep him lobotomized and docile) were sent back to show positive results.

Some Divinations and 9 weeks later, custom *partial* cloning spells were used to create pre-lobotomized "Cthulhu". This would have been fairly useless, as nobody onboard could build the machines to interface with all these Dark Cthulhu babies; however, special strike teams were deployed to teleport to the locations described where such designers might be found.

Years of work later, you've got Star Destroyers (complete with gravity and tractor beams) fitted with solar panels (from their TIE fighters) and black squids (which, when they aren't firing crazy powerful molecular disruptors, are similarly charging the ship's hyperspace and warp drive capacitors), launching interceptors and expensive to operate star fury lookalikes. Their primary bridge is now safely below decks, utilizing cameras, but the secondary bridge remains where the former bridge was located.

Individuals have laser rifle weaponry, man-portable proton torpedo launchers, grav guns, comm strips, antigravity harnesses, and access to various cybernetics, droids, vehicles, and bacta tanks. (Storm Trooper armor was deemed inferior to existing armor)

Everything they use is just a tool (never mind rumors of increased rates of insanity from spending too much time near certain objects) that they mass-produce. The players probably recognize some of the tech, but it's all presented as just tables of costs and effects.

What about other planets? What if one planet they discover is like modern earth or earth a few decades ago? First contact type things.

Modern Earth would be… low tech compared to beings capable of space travel. It shouldn't be terribly interesting to the *characters* compared to other worlds, only to the *players*.

And that's the trick - as in all games, put in things that people will find interesting. What, exactly, that is will vary depending on the players and their characters.

[Destro2119]

I'm much more into equipment developed *by* the PCs. But this depends on your group.

If your players aren't into the world-building / "make cool stuff" side? Then you've got a choice: what is the tech of the crashed ship?

You can try to answer it by balance and tech level: do you want it to be fantasy, modern, sci-fi? Do you want it to be small potatoes, or the biggest fish? Do you want it fully operational?

You can answer it by familiarity: do you want it to be something that the players will recognize, or something mysterious?

And - highly related to the previous question - I'm being completely serious when I ask, do you want it to be cool? This is serious - is this a tool, or something cool in its own right?

Let's say I chose, somewhat indecisively, *mostly* tool, *partially* recognizable, fully operational sci-fi, with a dash of big fish.

So, my backstory is that… an Imperial Star Destroyer came here to make repairs, and was rammed by a Shadow Warlock, sending both crashing into the planet. The jumbled ruins contain three distinct technology bases.

The first breakthrough by adventurers was to Clone / Simulacrum / Ice Assassin the organic technology. Because of course they did. And that was a disaster. In essence, "Cthulhu ate the Wizard, and started killing everyone else. Eventually, Cthulhu was brought down."

The second breakthrough, by the next adventuring party, was to create undead from the corpses of the ships' crews, give them masks to teach them Common, and ask them what they know. They were surprisingly ignorant, but laser rifles and whole books worth of ideas (like creating gravity, or shoving a ship through Cthulhu's brain to keep him lobotomized and docile) were sent back to show positive results.

Some Divinations and 9 weeks later, custom *partial* cloning spells were used to create pre-lobotomized "Cthulhu". This would have been fairly useless, as nobody onboard could build the machines to interface with all these Dark Cthulhu babies; however, special strike teams were deployed to teleport to the locations described where such designers might be found.

Years of work later, you've got Star Destroyers (complete with gravity and tractor beams) fitted with solar panels (from their TIE fighters) and black squids (which, when they aren't firing crazy powerful molecular disruptors, are similarly charging the ship's hyperspace and warp drive capacitors), launching interceptors and expensive to operate star fury lookalikes. Their primary bridge is now safely below decks, utilizing cameras, but the secondary bridge remains where the former bridge was located.

Individuals have laser rifle weaponry, man-portable proton torpedo launchers, grav guns, comm strips, antigravity harnesses, and access to various cybernetics, droids, vehicles, and bacta tanks. (Storm Trooper armor was deemed inferior to existing armor)

Everything they use is just a tool (never mind rumors of increased rates of insanity from spending too much time near certain objects) that they mass-produce. The players probably recognize some of the tech, but it's all presented as just tables of costs and effects.



Modern Earth would be… low tech compared to beings capable of space travel. It shouldn't be terribly interesting to the *characters* compared to other worlds, only to the *players*.

And that's the trick - as in all games, put in things that people will find interesting. What, exactly, that is will vary depending on the players and their characters.

(Storm Trooper armor was deemed inferior to existing armor)

Wait why?

Also, more on topic, if such a campaign was made, I would like "the crashed ship" to be cool and high tech, with no magic, just to show the players/tippyverse world that such a thing could be made, and the inspirations that the PCs could make to it.

Like for example, some PCs/wizards get together and make an anti-matter engine made by combing engative and positive energy. Some others create perpetual motion machines that are microscopic pieces of magical adamantine that continually rotate around to create energy that drives the warp drive. And then some others cast Genesis to create a demiplane with infinite energy, and then hook their entire ship's power supply to it via tiny interplanar portals.

Like, for example, I could take some note from the Sivvs from Starfinder for some of this. Or Dragonstar. Or Starfinder.

On the topic of meeting modern earth however, how does a (space) tippyverse character think differently from some hypothetical character from modern earth? Any big culture shock things?

[icefractal]

Basically everybody agreeing a constant cold war does nothing for them and using their newfound discoveries of their place in the universe to set out to conquer the galaxy for security and resources.

This question is important to answer, because it affects what kind of capabilities the Tippyversers have access to - what resources?

Because if you go with "everything RAW is allowed", then a Tippyverse civilization needs nothing from the outside world at all. Raw materials? Magic items? People? Space? They can create all of those, as much as they want to. So by saying something matters, you're saying they can't just snap their fingers for it, which changes what they can do. Not that some limitation is a bad thing - "no interaction needed" is pretty boring.

So ...
* Raw Materials - implies that Wish/Fabricate traps aren't a thing and neither are other similar loops. Also means that every auto-food-maker and shadesteel guard does come out of a (large) budget, so their usage would be a bit more economical.
* Real Estate - implies that your population is expanding (not too unusual, but not a given) and that demiplane creation is either limited or people don't like to live there. And that finding habitable planets is easier than building Dyson spheres, but with divination and teleportation magic it probably is.
* Recruitment / People - implies that Simulacra/Ice Assassins are limited, and that certain skills can't be learned by your existing populace.
* Technology - implies that there's technology out there which is still desirable to have in the presence of Tippyverse-level magic, and that you can't invent it yourself just by boosting people's mental stats sky-high.

For the first two uninhabited worlds are best, for the latter you want to find existing alien civilizations.

There are some motivations that don't rely on there being any resources out there:
* Ideology - if you believe your way of life is superior to the other options out there, and that everyone should have the chance to join it (or be forced to join it), that would be a reason for even a fully self-contained civilization to go searching through space. Results may vary.
* Benevolence - preventing disasters, potentially giving out information or aid, etc.
* Malevolence - like say, wiping everyone else out so nobody can grow to challenge you. May lead to 3-5 plucky heroes ruining your entire plan.
* Discovery - you're not sure what's out there, so you need to find out. Could be threats you need to prepare for, could be people you want to meet, could be new ideas you haven't even conceived of. This does assume that divinations alone don't guarantee the full picture.

[Quertus]

* Raw Materials - implies that Wish/Fabricate traps aren't a thing and neither are other similar loops. Also means that every auto-food-maker and shadesteel guard does come out of a (large) budget, so their usage would be a bit more economical.

Oh, Wish traps and infinite food makers can be a thing, and you still go adventuring for resources, so long as those resources are outside the realm of what you can create.

For instance, suppose your ships are powered by black holes. Creating a black hole is outside the range of a safe Wish, so, no, the government will *not* let you Wish for a black hole - they will Divination scry and die you to death before you finish thinking the thought of threatening the planet that way!

So, off you go, traveling the stars, looking for black holes. For example.

* Recruitment / People - implies that Simulacra/Ice Assassins are limited, and that certain skills can't be learned by your existing populace.

In the last great war, 200,000,000,000,000 of them died in a single round. The resulting flooding from that much ice and snow being added to the ecosystem caused countless deaths contingencies to trigger. That - plus how samey they all thought - no "seventh man" here - made us realize that there was value to using real people after all.

[Destro2119]

Oh, Wish traps and infinite food makers can be a thing, and you still go adventuring for resources, so long as those resources are outside the realm of what you can create.

For instance, suppose you ships are powered by black holes. Creating a black hole is outside the range of a safe Wish, so, no, the government will *not* let you Wish for a black hole - they will Divination scry and die you to death before you finish thinking the thought of threatening the planet that way!

So, off you go, traveling the stars, looking for black holes. For example.



In the last great war, 200,000,000,000,000 of them died in a single round. The resulting flooding from that much ice and snow being added to the ecosystem caused countless deaths contingencies to trigger. That - plus how samey they all thought - no "seventh man" here - made us realize that there was value to using real people after all.

So again, how would spacefaring TPverse characters behave and act differently than say a person from the good ol' US of A?

How "high tech" (magically and technologically speaking) would they be in comparison?

EDIT: Also, could Space Age TPverse eventually advance to Culture/Xeelee levels?

[Quertus]

So again, how would spacefaring TPverse characters behave and act differently than say a person from the good ol' US of A?

How "high tech" (magically and technologically speaking) would they be in comparison?

EDIT: Also, could Space Age TPverse eventually advance to Culture/Xeelee levels?

I would like "the crashed ship" to be cool and high tech, with no magic, just to show the players/tippyverse world that such a thing could be made, and the inspirations that the PCs could make to it.

Like for example, some PCs/wizards get together and make an anti-matter engine made by combing engative and positive energy. Some others create perpetual motion machines that are microscopic pieces of magical adamantine that continually rotate around to create energy that drives the warp drive. And then some others cast Genesis to create a demiplane with infinite energy, and then hook their entire ship's power supply to it via tiny interplanar portals.

Like, for example, I could take some note from the Sivvs from Starfinder for some of this. Or Dragonstar. Or Starfinder.

On the topic of meeting modern earth however, how does a (space) tippyverse character think differently from some hypothetical character from modern earth? Any big culture shock things?

How does one roleplay a member of a spacefaring TPverse? That depends: what is the culture and psychology of spacefaring TPverse? Asking how that culture differs from USA is like asking how any other culture differs from USA (not that USA is remotely homogenous).

I imagine spacefaring TPverse would have *almost* the same culture shock as any other D&D world *unless* they had learned concepts from the crashed starship. Concepts like, "what do you mean, only single digit sentient species on a single planet" or "what do you mean, dogs and cats and dolphins are capable of thoughts and emotions, often at near-human levels" or "what do you mean, plants count as living beings on your world" or "what do you mean, diseases are the result of infestations of really small living beings".

-----

In the "tool to cool" spectrum, Tippyverse is based on Rule of Tool. So the idea that the ship is Wondrous and Cool, but it's just used for ideas, and Magic is a tool, sounds like it would be fun, but… it can only last until the PCs encounter the source civilization, or a similarly advanced civilization, and get them (via Diplomacy, Mindrape, Ice Assassin, whatever) to teach the skills to turn technology into a tool.

[Destro2119]

I imagine spacefaring TPverse would have *almost* the same culture shock as any other D&D world *unless* they had learned concepts from the crashed starship. Concepts like, "what do you mean, only single digit sentient species on a single planet" or "what do you mean, dogs and cats and dolphins are capable of thoughts and emotions, often at near-human levels" or "what do you mean, plants count as living beings on your world" or "what do you mean, diseases are the result of infestations of really small living beings".

-----

In the "tool to cool" spectrum, Tippyverse is based on Rule of Tool. So the idea that the ship is Wondrous and Cool, but it's just used for ideas, and Magic is a tool, sounds like it would be fun, but… it can only last until the PCs encounter the source civilization, or a similarly advanced civilization, and get them (via Diplomacy, Mindrape, Ice Assassin, whatever) to teach the skills to turn technology into a tool.

"what do you mean, only single digit sentient species on a single planet" or "what do you mean, dogs and cats and dolphins are capable of thoughts and emotions, often at near-human levels" or "what do you mean, plants count as living beings on your world" or "what do you mean, diseases are the result of infestations of really small living beings".

TBH this stuff would seem to be to be able to have been discovered through divinations far sooner.

Also, dolphins are pretty smart even in DnD: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/w...some%20deities.

Also, I am a bit confused about the precise meaning of this quote:
In the "tool to cool" spectrum, Tippyverse is based on Rule of Tool. So the idea that the ship is Wondrous and Cool, but it's just used for ideas, and Magic is a tool, sounds like it would be fun, but… it can only last until the PCs encounter the source civilization, or a similarly advanced civilization, and get them (via Diplomacy, Mindrape, Ice Assassin, whatever) to teach the skills to turn technology into a tool.

Like, what exactly does this *mean*?

[Destro2119]

"How does one roleplay a member of a spacefaring TPverse? That depends: what is the culture and psychology of spacefaring TPverse? Asking how that culture differs from USA is like asking how any other culture differs from USA (not that USA is remotely homogenous)."

On the specific topic of this, maybe its my own bias for games like Dragonstar/SF where the old adventure plots of "delve the dungeon!" are still clearly running in the blood of those games despite some hundreds of years of industrialization, discovery, and advancements, but I would think their culture is just the same as any other super high tech spacefaring civilization and not some inscrutable conglomerate of transcendental/minmaxing forces running in a bizarre universe where RAW is physics. Like, magic item traps are just called "autofacs" or "replicators" (god knows star trek makes as much sense anyways) The fact that your ship is powered by a black hole/connections to an artificial demiplane full of energy/miniature perpetual motion adamantine mites is its own thing, really.

[Destro2119]

And yes, one of the things I am holding forth for this specific campaign is that RAW is not physics. Magic doesn’t break physics, it is a separate set of “physics” that overlays RW physics. Stats/xp are abstractions.

[Endarire]

As an aside...

Spoiler: Might and Magic: World of Xeen

Show

Might and Magic V has literal space ships that have crashed onto the world: One held MMV's main villain and the other this villain's antagonist and the party's ally. The space ships contain some art objects and data logs (and a wonderful soundtrack!) but nothing else of note.

[Quertus]

And yes, one of the things I am holding forth for this specific campaign is that RAW is not physics. Magic doesn’t break physics, it is a separate set of “physics” that overlays RW physics. Stats/xp are abstractions.

and not some inscrutable conglomerate of transcendental/minmaxing forces running in a bizarre universe where RAW is physics.

You keep talking about spacefaring TPverse, but I think it's fair to claim that the original is based pretty firmly in RAW. So… do you want "spacefaring TPverse", or just a space game?

"How does one roleplay a member of a spacefaring TPverse? That depends: what is the culture and psychology of spacefaring TPverse? Asking how that culture differs from USA is like asking how any other culture differs from USA (not that USA is remotely homogenous)."

On the specific topic of this, maybe its my own bias for games like Dragonstar/SF where the old adventure plots of "delve the dungeon!" are still clearly running in the blood of those games despite some hundreds of years of industrialization, discovery, and advancements, but I would think their culture is just the same as any other super high tech spacefaring civilization and not some inscrutable conglomerate of transcendental/minmaxing forces running in a bizarre universe where RAW is physics. Like, magic item traps are just called "autofacs" or "replicators" (god knows star trek makes as much sense anyways) The fact that your ship is powered by a black hole/connections to an artificial demiplane full of energy/miniature perpetual motion adamantine mites is its own thing, really.

Yeah, you've lost me here. Space Nazis following their dead god Emperor are gonna differ from invisible "spy vs spy" elves are gonna differ from repressive war crimes cultists disregarding the humanity of their cloned soldiers are gonna differ from universe conquers desperately attempting to keep the chaotic space faring races sufficiently under control that their more powerful brothers don't just annihilate all other sentient life are gonna differ from NASA.

"what do you mean, only single digit sentient species on a single planet" or "what do you mean, dogs and cats and dolphins are capable of thoughts and emotions, often at near-human levels" or "what do you mean, plants count as living beings on your world" or "what do you mean, diseases are the result of infestations of really small living beings".

TBH this stuff would seem to be to be able to have been discovered through divinations far sooner.

Also, I am a bit confused about the precise meaning of this quote:
In the "tool to cool" spectrum, Tippyverse is based on Rule of Tool. So the idea that the ship is Wondrous and Cool, but it's just used for ideas, and Magic is a tool, sounds like it would be fun, but… it can only last until the PCs encounter the source civilization, or a similarly advanced civilization, and get them (via Diplomacy, Mindrape, Ice Assassin, whatever) to teach the skills to turn technology into a tool.

Like, what exactly does this *mean*?

I mean, there's a lot of things that we *could* have discovered earlier with Science, but we weren't smart enough to ask the right questions / open-minded enough to hear the answer.

But as to what I *mean*? Hmmm…

1) I like the separation of "magic as tool, science as cool".

2) the "crashed spaceship in D&D Tippyverse" is a successful implementation of #1

3) the ability to *maintain* #1 is predicated upon technology remaining "not a tool".

4) meeting advanced technology races almost guarantees that technology will become a tool.

5) there are a great many ways for the Determinator to force technology to become a tool.

[Xeni]

I think the amount of 'culture shock' that tippyverse residents would be fairly significant in some ways, less so in others. assuming that all residents in question have no living memory of a time before the tippyverse was the way that it is then there are a few specific things that might stand out to them.

1- resource acquisition, they may be shocked to discover that these seemingly advanced societies still farm for their food and mine for their iron ores & what not. They may be confused as to how such an inefficient system even gives rise to advanced society instead of just barbarian kingdoms or the like.

2- active prolonged war, long lasting wars (years or centuries) are kind of a staple of the sci fi genre, and something that is rendered obsolete in the tippyverse. If exposed to the idea of a prolonged war they may be horrified and frightened. a character of the tippyverse, recognizing an advanced society may well assume they have similar warfaring capabilities to their own, and be horrified at the staggering expenditure of power that would take place over a prolonged war. before they learn the specific nature of how war is waged they may come to the conclusion that any powers capable of waging prolonged wars between eachother are NOT to be messed with.

3- technology that exceeds the power of a wish spell, the wish spell is a formative aspect of the tippyverse. and in many ways among the most powerful and versatile of effects that tippyverse characters could conceive of. in a conventional fantasy game wish can do almost anything a fantasy character can conceive of (limited in scope and scale of course). but when our tippyverse explorers discover some kind of flashy large scale/scope technological effect they may also be shocked at the raw power available to these societies. Examples depending on how you want them accomplished might be faster than light travel, significantly powerful weapons (antimatter bombs, RKKV's, reality altering weapons such as used in the saga of shadows etc...), powerful utility effects such as disruption fields that prevent ftl/wormholes/teleportation that can be bypassed by normal tippyverse magic, or any tech that you decide to make powerful and give unusual or priority interactions to over and above magic. any of these effects could create a sense of awe and wonder in a tippyverse character.

thats my 2 cents at least

[Destro2119]

I think the amount of 'culture shock' that tippyverse residents would be fairly significant in some ways, less so in others. assuming that all residents in question have no living memory of a time before the tippyverse was the way that it is then there are a few specific things that might stand out to them.

1- resource acquisition, they may be shocked to discover that these seemingly advanced societies still farm for their food and mine for their iron ores & what not. They may be confused as to how such an inefficient system even gives rise to advanced society instead of just barbarian kingdoms or the like.

2- active prolonged war, long lasting wars (years or centuries) are kind of a staple of the sci fi genre, and something that is rendered obsolete in the tippyverse. If exposed to the idea of a prolonged war they may be horrified and frightened. a character of the tippyverse, recognizing an advanced society may well assume they have similar warfaring capabilities to their own, and be horrified at the staggering expenditure of power that would take place over a prolonged war. before they learn the specific nature of how war is waged they may come to the conclusion that any powers capable of waging prolonged wars between eachother are NOT to be messed with.

3- technology that exceeds the power of a wish spell, the wish spell is a formative aspect of the tippyverse. and in many ways among the most powerful and versatile of effects that tippyverse characters could conceive of. in a conventional fantasy game wish can do almost anything a fantasy character can conceive of (limited in scope and scale of course). but when our tippyverse explorers discover some kind of flashy large scale/scope technological effect they may also be shocked at the raw power available to these societies. Examples depending on how you want them accomplished might be faster than light travel, significantly powerful weapons (antimatter bombs, RKKV's, reality altering weapons such as used in the saga of shadows etc...), powerful utility effects such as disruption fields that prevent ftl/wormholes/teleportation that can be bypassed by normal tippyverse magic, or any tech that you decide to make powerful and give unusual or priority interactions to over and above magic. any of these effects could create a sense of awe and wonder in a tippyverse character.

thats my 2 cents at least

For the last point, I have honestly a hard time picturing that, considering tech on that level is essentially just magic by another name in terms of scarcity/physics breaking.

The wish spell by definition can equal literally all of those effects. And magical research by TPversers could result in just as much power from things they already have.

On the first point, I would argue that not only do many pop culture sci fi places already don't really rely on that (Star Trek comes to mind), and that mass manufacture is not foreign to TPversers.

[Destro2119]

You keep talking about spacefaring TPverse, but I think it's fair to claim that the original is based pretty firmly in RAW. So… do you want "spacefaring TPverse", or just a space game?

On the topic of this, I guess what this has kind of turned into is basically the Tippyverses's magic and tech combined into a society that doesn't necessarily have the "siege mindset/divination cold wars mindset/paranoia" of the OG TPverse. Not that I ever liked that concept. I just handwave it by saying that the unification of the society has resulted in a less hyper paranoid attitude.

[Xeni]

For the last point, I have honestly a hard time picturing that, considering tech on that level is essentially just magic by another name in terms of scarcity/physics breaking.

The wish spell by definition can equal literally all of those effects. And magical research by TPversers could result in just as much power from things they already have.

tippyverse is high op magic in the first place. it stands to reason that if you want tech to be in any way relevant that you have to make it just as op. and I'm not sure what version of wish you are reading, but in D&D 3.5 wish has a fairly restricted list of things it can do safely and reliably.

On the first point, I would argue that not only do many pop culture sci fi places already don't really rely on that (Star Trek comes to mind), and that mass manufacture is not foreign to TPversers.

mass manufacture would be pretty foreign to TPversers, everything is just trap spammed into existence. they have no need for material acquisition or for any level of mass manufacture accomplished using conventional means. Also star trek isn't like that at all. I cant think of many sci fi settings that achieve post-scarcity in the way or to the degree that tippyverse does. Even in star trek among the federation there are agricultural colonies and mining operations. replicators are not infallible and cannot create many of the complex materials/components needed.


All of that said, if you want these sci fi people to be basically identical to the tpverse then you cant really expect much in the way of culture shock stemming from features inherent to the tippyverse.

[icefractal]

The wish spell by definition can equal literally all of those effects. And magical research by TPversers could result in just as much power from things they already have.

I think of Tippyverse style as originating from the existing rules, and going with the D&D magic rules, the main thing about D&D magic is that (compared to SF technology) it's small.

Most spells have a range less than a mile. The largest AoEs are, what, a few hundred feet? In space combat, those are tiny. Damaging spells have a hard time destroying any significant amount of iron (much less more advanced materials) unless they're being cast by a Mailman, and Disintegrate is only a 10' cube.

So - if a SF spaceship wants to destroy another, maybe they shoot it with a high-energy weapon and either eliminate it entirely or blast it into small pieces. If a Tippyship wants to do that, they teleport dozens to thousands (depending on size) of soldiers over and start wrecking it from the inside. Different approaches, and the Tipperversers may want to learn the other methods.

As far as Wish - safely, it can only do limited things, mostly not exceeding an 8th level spell. So probably not something which no existing spells is remotely capable of. Epic Magic, who knows, but things get stupid quick once you introduce it so I'd rather not.

On the intersection of magic and technology, a key question is what Fabricate can do. If you can just look at the blueprint for a supercomputer and start churning them out, that's a lot different than if you need parts which are themselves difficult to make and the programming is a separate matter.

[Destro2119]

I think of Tippyverse style as originating from the existing rules, and going with the D&D magic rules, the main thing about D&D magic is that (compared to SF technology) it's small.

Most spells have a range less than a mile. The largest AoEs are, what, a few hundred feet? In space combat, those are tiny. Damaging spells have a hard time destroying any significant amount of iron (much less more advanced materials) unless they're being cast by a Mailman, and Disintegrate is only a 10' cube.

So - if a SF spaceship wants to destroy another, maybe they shoot it with a high-energy weapon and either eliminate it entirely or blast it into small pieces. If a Tippyship wants to do that, they teleport dozens to thousands (depending on size) of soldiers over and start wrecking it from the inside. Different approaches, and the Tipperversers may want to learn the other methods.

As far as Wish - safely, it can only do limited things, mostly not exceeding an 8th level spell. So probably not something which no existing spells is remotely capable of. Epic Magic, who knows, but things get stupid quick once you introduce it so I'd rather not.

On the intersection of magic and technology, a key question is what Fabricate can do. If you can just look at the blueprint for a supercomputer and start churning them out, that's a lot different than if you need parts which are themselves difficult to make and the programming is a separate matter.

Yeah, the TPversers learning this type of thing would be helpful.

One can only wonder what the TPversers could do if they reverse engineered /developed a magic variant of long range space artillery.

On the subject of fabricate, it turns raw materials into finished parts. So I could see line after line of fabricate traps doing that progressively to parts.

[Destro2119]

tippyverse is high op magic in the first place. it stands to reason that if you want tech to be in any way relevant that you have to make it just as op. and I'm not sure what version of wish you are reading, but in D&D 3.5 wish has a fairly restricted list of things it can do safely and reliably.

TBH by this point I am more thinking just "what if a fantasy civ progressed to space levels using magic/magitech" and less "the TPverse from whole cloth is space level now."

Tippyverse would definitely still be a force to be reckoned with as they assimilate more concepts.

[Xeni]

Yeah, TBH by this point I am more thinking just "what if a fantasy civ progressed to space levels using magic/magitech" and less "the TPverse from whole cloth is space level now."

that makes more sense, a highmagic civ with some TPverse inspiration sprinkled in is much better suited for this sort of thing. have you looked at the spelljammer content at all? it has some really great stuff from a content perspective (magic spaceships! woot!) but it also has some really cool advice for how to simulate a space faring experience without delving into real world physics too much. I would highly recommend checking it out even if just for inspiration purposes. But I've ripped large parts of it wholesale for the magitech/spelljammer campaign I've been building for a while.

[Destro2119]

that makes more sense, a highmagic civ with some TPverse inspiration sprinkled in is much better suited for this sort of thing. have you looked at the spelljammer content at all? it has some really great stuff from a content perspective (magic spaceships! woot!) but it also has some really cool advice for how to simulate a space faring experience without delving into real world physics too much. I would highly recommend checking it out even if just for inspiration purposes. But I've ripped large parts of it wholesale for the magitech/spelljammer campaign I've been building for a while.

I'm also thinking Space Age Eberron now... (noted immediately as future thread idea)

[Destro2119]

that makes more sense, a highmagic civ with some TPverse inspiration sprinkled in is much better suited for this sort of thing. have you looked at the spelljammer content at all? it has some really great stuff from a content perspective (magic spaceships! woot!) but it also has some really cool advice for how to simulate a space faring experience without delving into real world physics too much. I would highly recommend checking it out even if just for inspiration purposes. But I've ripped large parts of it wholesale for the magitech/spelljammer campaign I've been building for a while.

On the subject of Spelljammer, the actual setting is something I would like to “futurize” with more prevalent/obvious magitech ie metal enclosed ships reinforced with resiliency runes and magical datapads.
However, the concepts of the engines are something I think is really cool from that setting.

[Xeni]

On the subject of Spelljammer, the actual setting is something I would like to “futurize” with more prevalent/obvious magitech ie metal enclosed ships reinforced with resiliency runes and magical datapads.
However, the concepts of the engines are something I think is really cool from that setting.

Thats pretty well exactly how I imagined it. A divination/illusion/abjuration bit of magic to acheive effects similar to a sci fi computer/control system for the ships, different kinds of fuel requiring engines to make it feel spacey, magic missile turrets, fireball artillery etc... big ol dreadnaughts with enchanted admantine hulls. tons of fun stuff to work with in a setting like that.

[Destro2119]

Thats pretty well exactly how I imagined it. A divination/illusion/abjuration bit of magic to acheive effects similar to a sci fi computer/control system for the ships, different kinds of fuel requiring engines to make it feel spacey, magic missile turrets, fireball artillery etc... big ol dreadnaughts with enchanted admantine hulls. tons of fun stuff to work with in a setting like that.

Another setting I'd like to throw into the mix is Aethera. Basically a heavy magitech/1950s future earth with aliens.

Think starships looking like the Yamato in space with huge hover pads/future rocket engines for an idea.

Also it brings in Spell Turrets, which are starship weapons made to amplify spellcaster spells to "starship battle" levels. Don't (just) think fireball, think Confusion on the opponent's gunner bays.

[Xeni]

Also it brings in Spell Turrets, which are starship weapons made to amplify spellcaster spells to "starship battle" levels. Don't (just) think fireball, think Confusion on the opponent's gunner bays.

Oh damn, thats marvelous. And HELLA dangerous lol, some big ol archmage steps into one and just lets loose? game over man. and that setting looks kinda cool. is it the from the aethera campaign setting book? the pathfinder one?

[Destro2119]

Oh damn, thats marvelous. And HELLA dangerous lol, some big ol archmage steps into one and just lets loose? game over man. and that setting looks kinda cool. is it the from the aethera campaign setting book? the pathfinder one?

Yes. And another trick for the first one, you don't even necessarily need casters, just build magic items that cast it at will or give some guys wands. Also, the mental image of a "stellar engagement" sized Shades or Reality Maelstrom is just awesome.

Also, the whole "aetherite" concept is super cool to me, especially things like the Crafting Stations or augmentations.

[unseenmage]

Optimization plus space faring equals fun. I get it.

Having played in a high op space faring game or two I have some examples.

There's a thread on the forums about using magic to just make planets. So solar systems become what you make of them.

Did you know that there's no upper limit to the size of Planar portals? And conveniently planetoids just move a out on their own in predictable patterns.
Whether you're adding a sojourn through another plane to its orbit or tossing it into another solar system being able to relocate planets is a big deal.

Animation magic let's you do neat things. Like Animate portion of the surface of the sun, or a deeper part if you can magic a one way path for line of effect.
An animated thing can be Smoky Confinememted or teleported or whatever.
This video describes the fun to be had.

As far as impressing primitive civilizations, we moved resource rich asteroids and gave planets new moons with Planar portals connecting them. We were immediately worshipped.

Genesis makes natural phenomenon just find so long as you can't sell it as a gem or special material and it's not alive.
Get your demiplane big enough and generate the smallest dwarf stars, shrink object them, then Animate them as a requisite for Minute Form and bam; fine sized ridiculousness that returns to full size at a command word.


So a space tippyverse adds creation, destruction, and relocation of planetoids to its post scarcity.
And gets access to more tons of tnt of damage dice than I even own.

And this is at the bare minimum.

Imagine animating a populated planet, sending it to the mirror plane and letting it fight its mirror duplicate.
Or sending it to the past to encounter its time duplicate.
Or Minute Form ing it and stealing it like an outer space Carmen Sandiego.
Sure it takes nigh infinite CL, but you're tipoyversing through space. You can always find another basket planet of puppies to feed your consumptive field.

[Elves]

At the simplest level, greater teleport has no range limit nor do scrying or most other divinations, so there's no reason you wouldn't have colonies on other habitable planets (it's not anachronous either; speculation about life on the moon goes back to classical times). I think it's a great thing to add to any D&D setting and opens up a ton of fun.

An exploration rover is simple to make with animate objects + scrying or telepathic bond + any unliving minion with an Int score.


Edit: With instantaneous travel I don't see why you'd need spaceships though. Perhaps large swaths of space are either no-magic zones or no-teleport zones due to the influence of some magical cosmic phenomena (huge drifting titans that suck in all the magic around them, etc.), necessitating special crafts to navigate them...why? Could be to harvest valuable resources in those areas, to access natural planar portals that only appear at specific Lagrange points, etc.

Overall though I think magic is best used not to populate space with magical phenomena, but to abridge the huge empty spaces that make it so boring, an easy way to make it more interesting without losing verisimilitude (it's cheesy if there's a magic asteroid or a planet-sized magic monster in every corner).

Another magical cosmic feature I could see are "planar bleeds". They might cover a whole solar system in magical shadow or lead to the creation of negative energy infused shadowstars (born in the "Night Nebula"), create a stream of silver effluence from the astral plane, etc.

Naturally occurring no-magic zones also give an opportunity for the classic fantasy world clashes with nonmagical world scenario.