3e - 2 Level Noncaster Dip For Epic Build?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hi, all. I've got a noncaster build I'm working on, which delves into epic (and I'm unsure if any more levels are forthcoming).

It's comprised of dips, since taking lots of levels in singular noncaster classes is generally a bad idea. Working on the basis that it's fairly high op, and I'm wanting a lot of versatility, but I don't want to delve into being a caster yet again. (See below, however.)

Here's what I've got so far (in no particular order):

Level 21, fractional BAB, fractional saves
3 factotum
2 decisive strike / martial monk
1 whirling frenzy / lion spirit totem barbarian
2 dungeon crasher fighter
2 totemist (for access to shoulders-bound phase cloak for access to at-will ethereality)
1 master thrower (for trip shot)
1 crusader
1 warblade
2 unarmed swordsage
4 bloodstorm blade

And 2 levels left.

Note that any 3e source is open, with PF open as a last resort (since I don't actually have those books, and will have to use the PFSRD for them), and I see classes more as toolboxes full of tools to build a character with, rather than my character's "job" or the basis of his identity. And aside from the feats required for master thrower and bloodstorm blade (which I'm perfectly willing to use items and locations to get more of), my feats are pretty much free.

I've got access to magic outside of being a casting class (buffs from an acorn of far travel from a friendly caster set up specifically to allow me to get away with not actually being a caster), so that's not really an issue. However, I'm at a bit of a loss as to what I should do for my last 2 levels.

I was thinking maybe working on some shadowpouncing via swordsage maneuvers, but I'm not entirely convinced I want to do that yet.

Ability scores, race, and alignment are undetermined at this time, although I prefer to take low-LA/RHD monster races and refluff them to suit my purposes.

Any ideas?

[edit]

...Huh. This was originally going to be a solo thing, and it still is, but kind of not?

So, apparently I can have a "one-man party," and I was given the option to either build five characters, or I could have five identical bodies, all hiveminded together, such that it's one mind in control of all five, capable of five different sets of actions each round, all sharing the same stats and classes, and so on. Each body has its own pool of resources to draw on (maneuvers, etc), but they'd all be based on the same character build. Oh, and they all start with five sets of the same equipment, but that will evolve over time, based on whatever loot I pick up.

I chose the latter, as juggling five completely different sets of abilities is a bit excessive.

So apparently I'm going to have five different bodies, one mind in control, but with five different trains of thought, all going at once. Think something similar in function to a dvati, only more so, and with fewer crippling restrictions.

So, yeah.

Anyway, I'm considering a custom race of some sort, and the stats are going to be quite high, since I'm going to be some sort of constructed entity, acting as the direct hand of a deity (but with free will; constructed from scratch, given the mind of a person who meshes well with the god's ethos naturally, then set loose to do what I want -- think an isekai'd displaced, and you've basically got it).

What would be a creature's stats and abilities if their bones were constructed of riverine, and they had subdermal riverine mesh? It's an idea I had, and I can apparently go crazy with it; note that the riverine couldn't be directly affected unless the flesh were stripped from it, so disintegrate couldn't do much unless my skin/fur/scales/whatever were stripped away, or the caster could otherwise bypass the flesh entirely, such as a beholder using Disintegration Finesse. (Note to self: Avoid beholders with Disintegration Finesse.) I'm thinking unbreakable bones and immunity to crits, at the least.

[thethird]

Chameleon
Any particular reason why you aren't picking it up already?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Chameleon
Any particular reason why you aren't picking it up already?

I was hoping for something a bit more out of my wheelhouse. Two levels for one floating feat when I can get a ton of feats already (via items and locations) seems a bit "meh" without something specific to do with them. Alter self via the acorn of far travel goodies above gets me floating feats (go human, enjoy that any-feat-I-want bonus feat) well enough; not sure if another floating feat is needed. And even if one was, there are other ways to get it, such as heroics.

[Halrax]

If this is in a party instead of solo and you have a high CHA you could go for a level of Marshal. But judging by the classes you've listed CHA is probably dump stat. If you want another feat you can take a level in Mariner (from Legend of the Twins) though since the bonus feat list is a lot of prerequisites you'll probably want to put it early on in the build. A level of Incarnate provides some versatility and meshes well with whatever essentia investments you made with the Totemist levels. Actually a second level of Incarnate is even better since it gets you the chakra bind. So either two levels of Incarnate or if you're starved for feats early on a level of Mariner and a level of Incarnate. Or do something with some prestige class or another. The person above recommended Chameleon and they're right to do so, but I wanted to at least put some base classes in. I'm not super familiar with very high level optimization but there's got to be something to do there.

[fallensavior]

I'd consider taking a second level of Barbarian with the Wolf totem ACF that trades Uncanny Dodge for Improved Trip (without needing prereqs)...unless your DM objects to having 2 different animal totems. (Maybe claim your mother was a lion clan barbarian and your father was a wolf clan barbarian, or something like that.)

Another option would be to take a level of martial rogue for a bonus feat and a bunch of extra skill points if you can fit it into your build at 1st level.

Or 2 levels in martial rogue for two bonus feats. And since you already have evasion, you could be a Goliath and take the racial substitution level to trade it for Mettle, or just trade it for Spell Reflection if you want to be some other race.

[Particle_Man]

I suppose you could throw in 2 levels of soulborn to get either immunity to fear, immunity to paralysis (and also enchantment (charm) effect with the elf substitution level, if you go for an elf), immunity to exhaustion or immunity to str penalty/damage/drain (fun for hanging out with shadows). It would require, respectively an alignment of LG, CG, LE or CE.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

In an epic game, I'd want to have Mettle. The easiest ways to get it are Pious Templar 1 or Witch Slayer 2, the trade-off being levels vs feats. Since apparently feats are easy to come by and you're fine with a bit of re-fluffing, Pious Templar is probably your best bet; it does break your "no spellcasting" rule, but you could just ignore that class feature. The same logic goes for a dip of Cloistered Cleric 1, because even if you have plenty of feats, you never have enough.

Also, I don't know how much you're going to rely on Diamond Mind for saves, but I wouldn't ignore base saves too much. The higher level you get, the more likely you might face more than 1 save per round. Since you're rich with feats I assume you're doing some combination of steadfast determination, planar touchstone: pride domain, and so on to shore everything up - especially will saves. To that end, another Crusader level might not hurt if your CHA is good. Or Hexblade 3 covers everything, if you can fit it in.

[nedz]

If your wisdom is low: Cleric 1.

You won't get spells but you will get two domains and TU.
The domains have Granted powers — there is a wide selection available — or can be swapped for Devotion feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

One level of Wild Shape Ranger gets you Fast Movement like a Barbarian has. You can also use wands of Ranger spells like Rhino's Rush if you want.

One level of Infiltrator from the Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide gets Fast Movement 10 ft. as well as 1d6 sneak attack, if you're into that.

A second level of Barbarian with the Wolf Totem ACF gets Improved Trip instead of Uncanny Dodge. Or just get it for Uncanny Dodge.

A second level of Crusader gets you another stance that's potentially higher level. Doesn't even mess with your maneuvers known/granted if you're doing the Idiot Crusader trick.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there a way to get something akin to shadow pounce without Telflammar shadowlord? As with most Faerun PrCs, the entry prereqs are stranglingly restrictive, basically only ever allowing one type of character that has the same fluff as every other character, with very little in the way of roleplaying flexibility. I have to play *this* character, and not anything else, because the Faerun devs decided that actually having independent thoughts is heretical anathema. Bahamut forbid that anyone play anything outside of FR.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is there a way to get something akin to shadow pounce without Telflammar shadowlord? As with most Faerun PrCs, the entry prereqs are stranglingly restrictive, basically only ever allowing one type of character that has the same fluff as every other character, with very little in the way of roleplaying flexibility. I have to play *this* character, and not anything else, because the Faerun devs decided that actually having independent thoughts is heretical anathema. Bahamut forbid that anyone play anything outside of FR.

Crinti Shadow Marauder 5, in Shining South, and the one you already mentioned.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Crinti Shadow Marauder 5, in Shining South, and the one you already mentioned.

So just about as bad, then.

*Sigh*

Alrighty. Thank you regardless.

[Piggy Knowles]

Is there a way to get something akin to shadow pounce without Telflammar shadowlord? As with most Faerun PrCs, the entry prereqs are stranglingly restrictive, basically only ever allowing one type of character that has the same fluff as every other character, with very little in the way of roleplaying flexibility. I have to play *this* character, and not anything else, because the Faerun devs decided that actually having independent thoughts is heretical anathema. Bahamut forbid that anyone play anything outside of FR.

If you're willing to change decisive strike to flurry, you can get a pseudo-shadow pounce ability via the Sun School feat. Add on ways to turn one attack into several (Snap Kick, sweeping strike, etc.) and it almost feels like pounce... almost. Still, it's your best bet if the more arduous methods of getting shadowpounce aren't doable for your build.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're willing to change decisive strike to flurry, you can get a pseudo-shadow pounce ability via the Sun School feat. Add on ways to turn one attack into several (Snap Kick, sweeping strike, etc.) and it almost feels like pounce... almost. Still, it's your best bet if the more arduous methods of getting shadowpounce aren't doable for your build.

You know, I think that will work well enough. Thank you. Wondering now if I can keep decisive strike somehow, while also nabbing flurry of blows.

Though now that I'm looking, apparently the only class other than monk that grants flurry of blows is shou disciple, and guess what? It's also a stupidly restrictive FR PrC. [edit] Ah, there's also disciple of the eye and...brood monkey? Wha? [/edit]

Ah, well. Not really married to decisive strike; there are other ways to multiply damage, so I'll just go with those. Flurry works better with throwing/distance unarmed strikes anyway.

[edit 2] Disciple of the eye (Races of the Dragon) stacks with monk for flurry of blows and fast movement; how does that work if I trade both of those away for other class features? [/edit 2]

[Piggy Knowles]

It's a bit dubious qualification-wise, since it's technically called "exotic flurry" rather than "flurry of blows," but Exotic Weapon Master is easy to qualify for and gets a flurry ability. If it's ruled that it is sufficient to qualify for Sun School (I'd certainly allow it as a DM), that's another option. Otherwise yeah, flurry has surprisingly few sources.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's a bit dubious qualification-wise, since it's technically called "exotic flurry" rather than "flurry of blows," but Exotic Weapon Master is easy to qualify for and gets a flurry ability. If it's ruled that it is sufficient to qualify for Sun School (I'd certainly allow it as a DM), that's another option. Otherwise yeah, flurry has surprisingly few sources.

Hmm. That's an idea. I was wanting to push my unarmed strikes pretty hard; is there some way to use exotic weapon master on unarmed strikes? Maybe make Exotic Weapon Proficiency grant proficiency in unarmed strike due to it being an aptitude weapon?

I'm wondering about one other (completely separate) thing, as well. One bit of RAW stupidity is that you can't make use of the Craft skill for alchemy items if you're not a spellcaster (for...some dumb reason). I know that SLAs qualify for spellcasting for some things, but do those from factotum count for the purposes of Craft (Alchemy)?

[nedz]

Is there a way to get something akin to shadow pounce without Telflammar shadowlord? As with most Faerun PrCs, the entry prereqs are stranglingly restrictive, basically only ever allowing one type of character that has the same fluff as every other character, with very little in the way of roleplaying flexibility. I have to play *this* character, and not anything else, because the Faerun devs decided that actually having independent thoughts is heretical anathema. Bahamut forbid that anyone play anything outside of FR.

Travel Devotion — it does help to have a source of TU though.
This allows you to use a swift action as a move action.
So (swift) Move — full attack is possible.
It doesn't work with charge though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Travel Devotion — it does help to have a source of TU though.
This allows you to use a swift action as a move action.
So (swift) Move — full attack is possible.
It doesn't work with charge though.

I was hoping for the ability to make attacks on a teleport-like ability, specifically, so I can utilize swordsage teleport maneuvers to make multiple attacks in different places per turn.

Though I suppose adding throwing (and distance) weapon qualities to my unarmed strikes would allow something similar, using additional melee attacks (granted by Snap Kick, TWF, and BAB) to make multiple attacks on each throw. Just throw myself at an enemy, make a few attacks until the foe is tripped or dead or stunned or whatever, then move on via another throw. It'd be very similar, although there are upsides and downsides compared to actual teleporting.

Also, I found the closest thing to an answer I can reasonably expect about the factotum/Craft (Alchemy) question here:

According to here, SLAs can be used as prerequisite for crafting items. There isn't any other specifics about what items, so Alchemy should work as well.

I did a bit of digging and responded with this:

Ah. Well, that helped me find the rule in question, and the rule it quotes (found here under "Prerequisites," I surmise) is specifically for magic items, but I suppose that's as close as can be found, in Core, at least. But thanks. That does help.

So that's that, unless someone comes up with rules somewhere else.

[Zarvistic]

Maybe an its an option to take two more levels in a different monk variant to add flurry, evasion and two more feats. Enables sun school and keeps decisive strike. Rules say this sort of multiclassing is tricky so up to your gm.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

...Huh. This was originally going to be a solo thing, and it still is, but kind of not?

So, apparently I can have a "one-man party," and I was given the option to either build five characters, or I could have five identical bodies, all hiveminded together, such that it's one mind in control of all five, capable of five different sets of actions each round, all sharing the same stats and classes, and so on. Each body has its own pool of resources to draw on (maneuvers, etc), but they'd all be based on the same character build. Oh, and they all start with five sets of the same equipment, but that will evolve over time, based on whatever loot I pick up.

I chose the latter, as juggling five completely different sets of abilities is a bit excessive.

So apparently I'm going to have five different bodies, one mind in control, but with five different trains of thought, all going at once. Think something similar in function to a dvati, only more so, and with fewer crippling restrictions.

So, yeah.

Anyway, I'm considering a custom race of some sort, and the stats are going to be quite high, since I'm going to be some sort of constructed entity, acting as the direct hand of a deity (but with free will; constructed from scratch, given the mind of a person who meshes well with the god's ethos naturally, then set loose to do what I want -- think an isekai'd displaced, and you've basically got it).

What would be a creature's stats and abilities if their bones were constructed of riverine, and they had subdermal riverine mesh? It's an idea I had, and I can apparently go crazy with it; note that the riverine couldn't be directly affected unless the flesh were stripped from it, so disintegrate couldn't do much unless my skin/fur/scales/whatever were stripped away, or the caster could otherwise bypass the flesh entirely, such as a beholder using Disintegration Finesse. (Note to self: Avoid beholders with Disintegration Finesse.) I'm thinking unbreakable bones and immunity to crits, at the least.