New UA: Draconic Options

[Hael]

I’m not really seeing the scaling breath weapon as that big a problem. It’s got nice action economy, but it’s the premiere feature of the race and given that we have variant humans, Yuan Ti, half elves and Sartyrs setting a very high bar, and upcoming races like faeries, I don’t see the race as written as that out of line.

The immunity is a bigger issue and parts of the second breath weapon are IMO more problematic. Being able to swim in lava for a lvl1 character is way too strong, and somewhat lazy design IMO.

Not a fan of the kobold design either but that’s mostly aesthetic and less mechanical.

[Dork_Forge]

I’m not really seeing the scaling breath weapon as that big a problem. It’s got nice action economy, but it’s the premiere feature of the race and given that we have variant humans, Yuan Ti, half elves and Sartyrs setting a very high bar, and upcoming races like faeries, I don’t see the race as written as that out of line.

The immunity is a bigger issue and parts of the second breath weapon are IMO more problematic. Being able to swim in lava for a lvl1 character is way too strong, and somewhat lazy design IMO.

Pointing to notably powerful races doesn't make this better imo, unless all races are going to be overhauled to be more 'in line' it's just pushing the creep higher.

Since my opinion seems to be in the vocal minority on the extent of the buff I thought I'd go take a look at a module example of the difference, so I pulled up LMoP on Roll20.

Having two uses of a 2d8 breath weapon trivialises Cragmaw hideout, and has a meaningfully high impact on Redbrand, and Thundertree and well pretty much all of it tbh. Enemies are clustered together frequently enough that increasing the amount of AOE you can bring to bear (especially at lower levels) has a dramatic shift.

Could you blame it on the module? Maybe, but i know multiple Candlekeep books are the same way with enemies, and at the end of the day it's the original starter set. Lots of people play it, and will keep playing it (especially after it was given out for free during the Pandemic).

To be honest, looking at the version presented, I can't really think of any races that impactful at lower levels unless they grant flight.

[Dr. Cliché]

Bouncing off of this as well, I see some criticism that there's nothing to make you feel very "draconic" here.

Even though, as far as the mechanics of actual dragons go, you have access to what is very likely their most defining feature.

I think the issue is that Breath Weapons aren't unique to dragons. Not even close.

You breath fire? Well I guess that makes you more like a dragon. Or a hell hound. Or, you know, any of a dozen other creatures with similar abilities. And when you add magic into the equation it muddies the waters even more.

[ATHATH]

Being able to swim in lava for a lvl1 character is way too strong, and somewhat lazy design IMO.

Doesn't that ability only come online at level 3?

Personally, I find the 10 minute energy immunity ability interesting and fine, and could possibly be bumped up to being usable once or twice per short rest. Remember that the energy immunity provided by the ability must be the same energy type that your breath weapon uses, and many creatures are immune to the energy types that they attack with. Thus, in many of the combats where you're getting full mileage out of your energy immunity (which can be relatively rare unless you're in a campaign that's themed around undead or elementals or something), you won't be getting full mileage out of your breath weapon.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I think the issue is that Breath Weapons aren't unique to dragons. Not even close.

You breath fire? Well I guess that makes you more like a dragon. Or a hell hound. Or, you know, any of a dozen other creatures with similar abilities. And when you add magic into the equation it muddies the waters even more.

If you didn't also share their defining physical characteristics (in regards to this UA, chromatic or metallic scales) I might agree, but with all context at hand it's a massive indication of their draconic heritage.

I'm sure you would agree as well that if asked "what type of creature is feared for it's ability to breath deadly elemental attacks" the first and likely immediate thought is "dragon" and not, say, "winter wolf". Sharing those abilities with other creatures didn't exclude it from being a defining feature, especially when the source you're drawing from is the most identifiable one

[Dr. Cliché]

If you didn't also share their defining physical characteristics (in regards to this UA, chromatic or metallic scales) I might agree, but with all context at hand it's a massive indication of their draconic heritage.

I get what you mean, yet at the same time they just don't feel very dragon-y to me.

It seems like many of the pieces are there (though I'll point out that, aesthetically, without wings they're just colourful lizardfolk) but they're just not coming together in my mind.

I'm sure you would agree as well that if asked "what type of creature is feared for it's ability to breath deadly elemental attacks"

But this is kind of the problem - dragons are indeed known for their devastating breath weapons. But the Dragonborn's breath weapon is... kinda unimpressive. The area is minute and the damage is barely better than that of a Cantrip. It feels less 'draconic breath-weapon' and more 'draconic halitosis'.

Ans yes, I know that a 60ft cone of fire dealing 10d10 damage or whatever would be stupidly overpowered as a racial feature. But at the same time, when you're trying to emulate the most infamous ability of massive, awe-inspiring dragons, I'm not sure Baby's First Breath Weapon is the best way to go about it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I get what you mean, yet at the same time they just don't feel very dragon-y to me.

It seems like many of the pieces are there (though I'll point out that, aesthetically, without wings they're just colourful lizardfolk) but they're just not coming together in my mind.

Half dragons and most kobold don't have wings either, and unless I'm mistaken both have closer ties to true dragons that even dragonborn do. Are they also sorely lacking in the "dragon-y" feel? Is it really just because of a lack of wings?

But this is kind of the problem - dragons are indeed known for their devastating breath weapons. But the Dragonborn's breath weapon is... kinda unimpressive. The area is minute and the damage is barely better than that of a Cantrip. It feels less 'draconic breath-weapon' and more 'draconic halitosis'.

Ans yes, I know that a 60ft cone of fire dealing 10d10 damage or whatever would be stupidly overpowered as a racial feature. But at the same time, when you're trying to emulate the most infamous ability of massive, awe-inspiring dragons, I'm not sure Baby's First Breath Weapon is the best way to go about it.

It's roughly equal to the actual spell Dragon's Breath, actually dealing more damage on average past level 5. It's definitely more potent than a cantrip, AoE cantrips deal less than half the damage in a worse area.

For PHB Dragonborn I could entirely agree with your criticisms here, but this new breath attack is a significant improvement and is much more usable, you're actually able to "be dragon-y" while you're also doing your class related things. The mechanical strength could use more tuning I'm sure but the defining features are present.

[KorvinStarmast]

Could this be because 1d4 bludgeoning is already what fists do? I'm not updated on errata for the core books, but didn't they change it so everyone does a d4 as default? At least d4 Tabaxi claws provide a different damage typing, the tail slap is just redundant without the damage boost

Fists do 1+STR bonus (oh, Max ninja'd me) and I just had another idea:
Drop the immunity to a minute, rather than ten. I'll put that in the feedback.

[PhantomSoul]

It's roughly equal to the actual spell Dragon's Breath, actually dealing more damage on average past level 5. It's definitely more potent than a cantrip, AoE cantrips deal less than half the damage in a worse area.

And cantrips (barring special features) deal no damage on a successful save normally; the Breath Weapon still does half damage on a success.

[Dr. Cliché]

Half dragons and most kobold don't have wings either, and unless I'm mistaken both have closer ties to true dragons that even dragonborn do. Are they also sorely lacking in the "dragon-y" feel? Is it really just because of a lack of wings?

I didn't say they didn't feel dragon-y solely because of a lack of wings. I just thought that the lack of wings was noteworthy.

As to your questions on half-dragons and kobolds, do half-dragons even exist as a player race? Looking at the MM entry, it's certainly not the most thrilling of templates. Though I suppose if you have no issue with half-dragons I can certainly see why you'd also give Dragonborn a pass.

As for kobolds, I thought their ties to dragons were the most distant, compared with other dragon-themed races? Certainly dragons are important to their culture but I never thought of kobolds as embodying dragons in the way I'd expect stuff like half-dragons and dragonborn to. To put it another way, I wouldn't play a kobold because I wanted to play a character that's as close as possible to playing an actual dragon. I'd play a kobold because I wanted to play a silly, little, dog-lizard thing.

Mechanically, I certainly don't like the Kobold race in this UA. Resistance to being Frightened? Bit weird but whatever. Sorcerer cantrip? Perfectly in-theme . . . except why can you use Int or Wis for it? The whole point is that it's meant to be sorcerous legacy, so surely it should be linked to Charisma? Tail attack? What. Since when has this ever been a thing for Kobolds? I don't think this was a thing even with the wealth of feats and options in 3.5. Dragonic Roar? No. Just no. This absolutely does not belong on a small race best known for yipping like dogs.

The Volo's Kobold isn't without its issues but at least it feels like I'd be playing an actual Kobold.

It's roughly equal to the actual spell Dragon's Breath

Okay but that in no way changes the point I was making.

It's definitely more potent than a cantrip, AoE cantrips deal less than half the damage in a worse area.

I wasn't trying to say that it was worse than a cantrip. My point was that if you're evoking a breath weapon best known for being powerful and devastating, you're inevitably going to lose that feeling when you try to shrink it down in order to balance it.

For PHB Dragonborn I could entirely agree with your criticisms here, but this new breath attack is a significant improvement and is much more usable, you're actually able to "be dragon-y" while you're also doing your class related things. The mechanical strength could use more tuning I'm sure but the defining features are present.

*shrugs*

All I can say is that despite this much-lauded power-boost, I'm still left with no interest in ever playing a dragonborn.

[P. G. Macer]

As for kobolds, I thought their ties to dragons were the most distant, compared with other dragon-themed races? Certainly dragons are important to their culture but I never thought of kobolds as embodying dragons in the way I'd expect stuff like half-dragons and dragonborn to. To put it another way, I wouldn't play a kobold because I wanted to play a character that's as close as possible to playing an actual dragon. I'd play a kobold because I wanted to play a silly, little, dog-lizard thing.

Mechanically, I certainly don't like the Kobold race in this UA. Resistance to being Frightened? Bit weird but whatever. Sorcerer cantrip? Perfectly in-theme . . . except why can you use Int or Wis for it? The whole point is that it's meant to be sorcerous legacy, so surely it should be linked to Charisma? Tail attack? What. Since when has this ever been a thing for Kobolds? I don't think this was a thing even with the wealth of feats and options in 3.5. Dragonic Roar? No. Just no. This absolutely does not belong on a small race best known for yipping like dogs.

The Volo's Kobold isn't without its issues but at least it feels like I'd be playing an actual Kobold.

The Kobold’s sorcerer cantrip can be any of INT/WIS/CHA because that is the new standard, as seen with the Hexblood, Fairy, and Owlfolk. I’m certain that the Tasha’s racial shift is to blame for that as a whole .

I think someone mentioned either on Reddit or earlier on this thread that the advantage-against-fear feature is to mimic the Kobold Dragonshield monster stat block from Volo’s Guide, though there’s a lack of synergy given that you have to use the version of the race that doesn’t have Pack Tactics and Sunlight Sensitivity in order to have that feature.

The tail attack is pretty “What in the Nine Hells were they thinking?”, I’ll agree, and it’s so inferior to the other options presented for the UA kobold, too. WotC has a tendency to overvalue natural weapons when designing races IMHO.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Okay but that in no way changes the point I was making.

Then what is your point? Your comparing the range and damage of a huge+ creature to a medium one, it would be pretty absurd if your breath attack was on par with that.

How about a size appropriate comparison, if you look at the breath attack of a Wyrmling (medium sized true dragon) it compares very closely.

I will fully concede though that if the breath weapon doesn't sell you, you're probably not going to find much to like with Dragonborn because it's most of what they get, and it's absolutely all they get in the PHB version.

[PhantomSoul]

The Kobold’s sorcerer cantrip can be any of INT/WIS/CHA because that is the new standard, as seen with the Hexblood, Fairy, and Owlfolk. I’m certain that the Tasha’s racial shift is to blame for that as a whole .

I think there's one "f" too many in that last sentence... (God Tasha's & WOTC are a mess.)

The tail attack is pretty “What in the Nine Hells were they thinking?”, I’ll agree, and it’s so inferior to the other options presented for the UA kobold, too. WotC has a tendency to overvalue natural weapons when designing races IMHO.

Agreed, especially with it being a weird decision.

[MaxWilson]

WotC has a tendency to overvalue natural weapons when designing races IMHO.

Yes, I wonder what kind of thought process leads to that. Natural weapons are useful in some cases, such as while grappling or while captured and disarmed, but clearly Kobolds aren't going to be doing much grappling (too Small) and even if captured, how difficult is it really supposed to be to improvise a club (1d6+Str, just like a Kobold's tail)?

I don't really like draconic kobolds anyway. In the back of my mind, kobolds will always be more doglike than dragon-like despite subsequent retcons.

[Dr. Cliché]

The Kobold’s sorcerer cantrip can be any of INT/WIS/CHA because that is the new standard, as seen with the Hexblood, Fairy, and Owlfolk. I’m certain that the Tasha’s racial shift is to blame for that as a whole

I'm sure you're right. Really not a fan as it seems to remove any thematic connection.

I think someone mentioned either on Reddit or earlier on this thread that the advantage-against-fear feature is to mimic the Kobold Dragonshield monster stat block from Volo’s Guide, though there’s a lack of synergy given that you have to use the version of the race that doesn’t have Pack Tactics and Sunlight Sensitivity in order to have that feature.

Yeah, that's why I'm willing to give that ability a pass.

The tail attack is pretty “What in the Nine Hells were they thinking?”, I’ll agree, and it’s so inferior to the other options presented for the UA kobold, too. WotC has a tendency to overvalue natural weapons when designing races IMHO.

Yes, I wonder what kind of thought process leads to that. Natural weapons are useful in some cases, such as while grappling or while captured and disarmed, but clearly Kobolds aren't going to be doing much grappling (too Small) and even if captured, how difficult is it really supposed to be to improvise a club (1d6+Str, just like a Kobold's tail)?

Regarding natural weapons, I find it especially irritating that you're not allowed to use dexterity with them - especially for races like tabaxi and kobolds that clearly favour dex over strength.

[PhantomSoul]

Regarding natural weapons, I find it especially irritating that you're not allowed to use dexterity with them - especially for races like tabaxi and kobolds that clearly favour dex over strength.

Don't worry, now with Tasha's (where actually allowed) Kobolds can be strong like a Goliath or a Half-Orc! How dare they be encouraged or forced to favour Dex!

[quindraco]

I get what you mean, yet at the same time they just don't feel very dragon-y to me.

It seems like many of the pieces are there (though I'll point out that, aesthetically, without wings they're just colourful lizardfolk) but they're just not coming together in my mind.

How draconic do you need them to be?

Here are the full stats of a white dragon wyrmling, translated into a list of PC abilities:

Racials (these violate the design model for playable races now, so in reality these would never fly): +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT.
Scales: You can calculate your base AC as 16 when unarmored, although you can add a shield to the calculation. You are immune to Cold damage.
Speed: You have a swim speed equal to your walking speed, a burrow speed equal to half that, and a fly speed equal to twice that. You cannot hover.
Senses: You have 10 feet of blindsight and 60 feet of darkvision.
Languages: Common, Draconic.
Cold Breath: As an action, you can exhale an icy blast of hail in a 15-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 8 + your consitution modifier + your proficiency bonus Constitution saving throw, taking 5d8 cold damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If you do so, roll 1d6 at the start of each of your turns; on a 5+, you regain the ability to do this. Until then, you cannot do this.
Bite: You have a natural weapon that deals 1d10 piercing + 1d4 cold damage. You are proficient with it.

Everything we know about Dragonborn suggests that they should be weaker than a wyrmling, before you add class levels.

[Dr. Cliché]

How draconic do you need them to be?

Maybe draconic enough that they get to embody more than a single characteristic of a dragon?

As it stands, the elemental aspect (breath weapon + resistance to same element) is the only manner in which they differ from just normal humans.

Maybe you think that's enough but to me they just feel really bland. Which isn't what I want in my dragons.

I mean, let's look at some common aspects of dragons that they don't have.
- Any sort of natural armour.
- Wings
- Frightful Presence
- Any draconic skills (e.g. Perception or Intimidatein lieu of the aforementioned Frightful Presence)
- Darkvision
- (minor) Blindsight
- Natural weapons (claws, bite, tail)
- Change Shape (for metallic dragons)

Now obviously I'm not saying that that Dragonborn should have all of the above but the fact that they don't have *any* means that their claim to dragonhood feels pretty tenuous.

Even a couple of ribbons (e.g. getting a natural weapon - whether claws, tail or a bite) would help, I think.

As it stands, they feel more like a dull template than a race.

[MaxWilson]

Maybe draconic enough that they get to embody more than a single characteristic of a dragon?

As it stands, the elemental aspect (breath weapon + resistance to same element) is the only manner in which they differ from just normal humans.

Maybe you think that's enough but to me they just feel really bland. Which isn't what I want in my dragons.

I mean, let's look at some common aspects of dragons that they don't have.
- Any sort of natural armour.
- Wings
- Frightful Presence
- Any draconic skills (e.g. Perception or Intimidatein lieu of the aforementioned Frightful Presence)
- Darkvision
- (minor) Blindsight
- Natural weapons (claws, bite, tail)
- Change Shape (for metallic dragons)

Now obviously I'm not saying that that Dragonborn should have all of the above but the fact that they don't have *any* means that their claim to dragonhood feels pretty tenuous.

Even a couple of ribbons (e.g. getting a natural weapon - whether claws, tail or a bite) would help, I think.

As it stands, they feel more like a dull template than a race.

Heh. You just made me realize that the Dragonborn from this UA could just as easily be related to Cyclops from the X-Men as to a dragon.

[Dork_Forge]

Heh. You just made me realize that the Dragonborn from this UA could just as easily be related to Cyclops from the X-Men as to a dragon.

Huh a Force gem dragonborn Warlock...

EB is oyur normal blast and the breath weapon is crankin' that visor open, that's an amusing thought.

[quindraco]

Even a couple of ribbons (e.g. getting a natural weapon - whether claws, tail or a bite) would help, I think.

As it stands, they feel more like a dull template than a race.

What's a ribbon? A mechanical feature so weak it's only there for flavor, like if they had a 1d4 bite?

Certainly in the PHB they're unforgivably bad. The UA is progress, but I 100% agree I'd have replaced the 1/long rest racials across the board with more flavorful options. As it stands they provide weird mechanical benefits only situationally thematically appropriate to the race.

As I noted when I gave you the statblock, frightful presence isn't core to being draconic - dragons aren't born with it - but you're quite right, giving them any sort of bite (even letting them bite for 1 piercing, it doesn't have to be a damage upgrade) would be very flavorful. Flight is problematic on any playable race, and dragonborn don't even have wings, but e.g. the white wyrmling at least also has claws good enough to dig and climb and a body sleek enough to swim. Climb and swim speeds are so weak in 5E you can hand out especially slow ones without any real fear of balance issues - you could just give white dragonborn a swim speed of 15 feet and it would amount to what I think you mean by a ribbon.

Same thing for the scales, really - you could give them scales as weak as you wanted, and it would still feel more thematic. Even AC 11 tortle armor would "feel" scalier than human flesh, and again, it would be ribbon-grade.

Contrast with dwarf or elf racials, both of which are chock full of content. Great example is how dwarfs are intrinsically proficient with expertise in history checks made to recall the history of a rock. That's mechanically useless, but awesome for flavor.

[Dr. Cliché]

What's a ribbon? A mechanical feature so weak it's only there for flavor, like if they had a 1d4 bite?

That's it exactly.

Flight is problematic on any playable race, and dragonborn don't even have wings

Just a point but wings don't necessarily have to provide full flight. They could, for example, just give Dragonborn a bonus to their jumping distance or reduce the damage they'd suffer from falling.

And yeah, I know Dragonborn don't currently have wings (barring a racial feat, IIRC) but it's not like WotC haven't retconned stuff like this in the past.

Same thing for the scales, really - you could give them scales as weak as you wanted, and it would still feel more thematic. Even AC 11 tortle armor would "feel" scalier than human flesh, and again, it would be ribbon-grade.

Contrast with dwarf or elf racials, both of which are chock full of content. Great example is how dwarfs are intrinsically proficient with expertise in history checks made to recall the history of a rock. That's mechanically useless, but awesome for flavor.

Yeah, exactly. I think a few more minor abilities like you suggest would go a long way to making Dragonborn feel more like dragons.

[quindraco]

Yeah, exactly. I think a few more minor abilities like you suggest would go a long way to making Dragonborn feel more like dragons.

Seems reasonably easy to come up with these in abundance. Just off the top of my head, with some of my earlier comments modified to work properly with PC classes (this is for white dragonborn, since I have the white wyrmling stat block still in my head - other colors might get different ones, if their stat blocks are resistant enough):

Bite: A dragonborn can bite, letting them perform an unarmed strike that deals piercing damage, rather than bludgeoning damage. They can also grapple with their mouth rather than their hand.
Natural Armor: You have tough, scaly skin. When you aren't wearing armor, your AC is 11 + your Dexterity modifier. You can use your natural armor to determine your AC if the armor you wear would leave you with a lower AC. A shield's benefits apply as normal while you use your natural armor.
Natural Athlete: You have a swim speed and a climb speed equal to half your walking speed, and a burrow speed of half your swim speed. Round all numbers down to the next multiple of 5; for a dragonborn with a walking speed of 30, that means swim 15, climb 15, burrow 5.
Draconic Senses: You have 30 foot darkvision, and advantage on Perception checks made to see or hear anything within 5 feet of you.

The above plus Cold Resistance (nerfed Cold Immunity) and an appropriate nerfed breath attack would be the entire white wyrmling stat block, minus the flight. If you wanted to retcon in weak wings, a fly speed equal to burrow speed (without hover) actually simulates being a good glider remarkably well, since you can jump normally and just flap your wings for 5 more feet.

All of this was deliberately written to actually work with class features like a monk's, so you still feel more draconic if you pick up abilities that naturally buff such things. Hopefully I didn't make anything too powerful.

[Kane0]

I contest that Ribbons aren't being defined as weak features but rather features that aren't strong in relation to combat. Ribbons can be things like Stonecunning and Thieves Cant which can be very useful, just not all that much in a fight.

Examples I had for dragonborn:
Awesome presence: Half prof bonus an any Charisma checks you aren't already proficient in
Hoardsense: You have advantage on Intelligence and Wisdom checks regarding art and jewelry
Mingler: Can cast Disguise Self once per long rest, which lasts until you attack or take damage

And the Gem dragonborn telepathy also counts already.

[Dr. Cliché]

I contest that Ribbons aren't being defined as weak features but rather features that aren't strong in relation to combat. Ribbons can be things like Stonecunning and Thieves Cant which can be very useful, just not all that much in a fight.

I thought Ribbons were abilities that were flavourful but were either mechanically weak or else quite niche?

e.g. proficiency in Persuasion probably doesn't have much use in combat but I certainly wouldn't describe it as a ribbon.

[quindraco]

I contest that Ribbons aren't being defined as weak features but rather features that aren't strong in relation to combat. Ribbons can be things like Stonecunning and Thieves Cant which can be very useful, just not all that much in a fight.

Examples I had for dragonborn:
Awesome presence: Half prof bonus an any Charisma checks you aren't already proficient in
Hoardsense: You have advantage on Intelligence and Wisdom checks regarding art and jewelry
Mingler: Can cast Disguise Self once per long rest, which lasts until you attack or take damage

And the Gem dragonborn telepathy also counts already.

Gem telepathy and Mingler are insanely powerful compared to Hoardsense and Stonecunning. Awesome Presence is "don't be a bard, but definitely be a sorcerer with Dispel Magic", which, if deliberate, is quite cunning and I approve, but it's in between the stronger pair and the weaker pair, there.

I've yet to work out a useful way to use Thieves' Cant, largely because I need the other person to understand it (so I can't use it on my party members to hide info from the enemy) and somehow it's the same cant the world over so any random rogue I meet might be able to understand it, another deficit. I wish it was instead something like "you can spend 4 times as long saying something, and it's an insight check to realize what you're really saying unless you're the intended recipient" or similar. At least Druidic inflicts a Perception check to even realize what you're looking at is a language.

[ATHATH]

Yes, I wonder what kind of thought process leads to that. Natural weapons are useful in some cases, such as while grappling or while captured and disarmed, but clearly Kobolds aren't going to be doing much grappling (too Small) and even if captured, how difficult is it really supposed to be to improvise a club (1d6+Str, just like a Kobold's tail)?

I don't really like draconic kobolds anyway. In the back of my mind, kobolds will always be more doglike than dragon-like despite subsequent retcons.

I guess they could make okay heavyweight monks (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...rength-Monks)?

[Chaosmancer]

So you've spent some time and made a list of 14 creatures, of those 14 creatures 5 have a +1 and would still fail more often then they'd succeed. And you went looking for these creatures specifically. So maybe we have differing ideas what a 'decent Dex' is, because a +1 to a save isn't decent in anyway.

So, your original claim was 'most monsters have a decent Dex, so they're going to save half the time' given the DC of 12 you're looking for a Dex of +2. You went looking for mosnters with positive Dex and came back with a list over a third of which was below that bonus. So do most monsters havea +2 dex? I genuinely don't know, but I'd hazard a guess that a substantial amount that do, are kinda irrelvant, see:

+1 is still succeeding 50% of the time (11-20) And I wasnt' seeking them out specifically. I mean, sure I avoid listing giants, and you had already listed Ogres, but most everything else was +1 or +2.

And I was trying to stay below CR 10, while also not giving you monsters like Gricks and Grells that wouldn't be used as often.

-Chain Devils are CR 8, why on earth would you be fighting them before 5th level? So realistically the DC goes up to at least 13... And regardless it's a Fiend, full of Fiendish resistances and immunities. Depending on your element you might be happy to get damage out at all.

You can't grab higher level creatures and hold them to a mediocre tier 1 DC, when they likely wouldn't ever be used at those levels.

For the rest of your argument, it's an AOE, if you're using it period, it's because the damage type is relevant. Why on ea

Not sure why you cut off there.

But, okay, the Chain Devil is facing a DC 13. But here is the thing, you can't just judge this ability by "is it useful before level 5", it needs to be useful at level 14 too. Most racial abilities are generally useful. This needs to be good enough that it is going to be used in combat, not just when cleaning up goblins and kobolds.

It's an AOE, by it's very nature it depends on the game, if higher level means more single big enemies then it drops off in value sharply, nature of the beast.

Who said single big enemies? At level 11 you can still face multiple enemies. Just, instead of being a squad of orcs, you get a squad of Minotaurs, who have 76 hp. An AOE using 4d6 for 14 damage is just not quite as useful, since even as a solid blow you are dealing 18% of their health, where before you were hitting for 50% or more.

That is what I meant. Even as an AOE, the damage numbers didnt' keep up to make it worthwhile compared to taking your normal action.

Did you think I was implying Misty Step was used to aid in damage in some way? He Misty Stepped away to avoid getting creamed after he got some damage in. Two major resources for minor damage is very misleading.

Why would he get creamed? What was different about using his breath weapon if it required Misty Step to run away compared to using his normal action?

What Paladins get Burning Hands?

You don't need to kill creatures for damage to be useful, it's a team game and softening up enemies for the others to kill is a great tactic. Or mopping up after others, after all nobody said you had to use this ability against healthy creatures.

Then there's times where you can't reach creatures but still want to do something...

But while it is a team game, it is also a resource management game. If I'm using a second level spell slot to run away after I injury a bunch of enemies with another ability, isn't it better for the team if I could use a 2nd level spell to just kill the enemies instead? Can't get creamed that way.

And, if they are close enough to be finished off by a breath weapon, aren't they close enough by level 5 to be finished off with two melee attacks? Wouldn't I soften up the enemy more by using my weapon to deal 2d8+12 damage instead of 3d6?

And your last point just highlights the issue for me. "I literally can't do anything else and don't want to waste my turn." That shouldn't be what your dragon breath feels like. It shouldn't be a "I'd rather use this than waste my turn" it should be something you actively desire to use.

Something doesn't have to be useful to be iconic, a race ability will always fall behind class abilities to some, if not most degrees. If it didn't it would overshadow them.

My experience and opinion of the current breath isn't it's only useful when tapped out (though that is a valid situation as well), but I never argued that it shouldn't be buffed in someway. It should be buffed, but three ways to Sunday ain't it.

And I'm telling you that unless you want to pigeon hole it for one class or the other, it needed the buffs it got.

...why should it be equally useful for all characters? Heck a whole heap of abilties available to races now don't hit that category and they aren't bad abilities.

Everyone can derive some use out of it and that's the important part, but there's also the problems this opens up:

Now a Gem Dragonborn Bladesinger at 6th level and above can use a 3d8 force based aoe and throw a cantrip in the same turn. That's not okay, these buffs don't exist in a vacuum they need to play with the game as it stands.

Why is that not okay? What exactly might happen from them being able to do this? They are using a daily resource for about 5d8 damage. That feels pretty standard to me. Maybe a little bit high, but not ridiculous.

Do you really believe that they need prof uses per day for that to be the case? What would be wrong with the action economy and die changes alone? You still want to use it, you still get to use it multiple times a day, you just don't get to nova spam it anymore. Please don't say all three of these things is necessary to make the breath weapon worth while.

Most tables aren't doing more than 1 short rest per day, if that. A lot of them aren't doing any. So, yeah, I think that is why WoTC is shifting over to Prof per day, because a lot of short rest abilities were becoming daily abilities, and they weren't balanced that way.

Your comparison are also missing the point massively:

-High Elf, if you're using your cantrip you aren't using your action for something else.

3

Obviously. But there are plenty of times that it is no-brainer to use it. That is why you took the cantrip you took, right?

-Dwarf, I don't even know why you'd bring a resistance up, especially when the Dragonborn have one as well, it's entirely irrelevant since it just isn't up to the player if this actually gets used.

You said it was a no-brainer that gets used all the time. Every time Poison resistance comes up, it is a no-brainer. Does this critique only apply to active abilities?

-Goliath, if you use Stone's Endurance then you don't have your reaction to Shield, or Uncanny, or OA, or Sentinel etc. etc.

So... your Goliath is a Rogue/Eldritch Knight multi-class with a feat? Well, yeah, you might not get as much use out of reducing damage to yourself if you have two or three other ways to do it.

To a Barbarian who got shot with a lightning bolt though... kind of a no-brainer to reduce that damage.

When something is both so good that you want to use it, so prevalent that you can do it relatively frequently, and has action economy so cheap that you can still do your normal stuff to some degree on top, that's boring.

To you. Not to everyone else.

Maybe an example will help, Warlock dips are popular for a great number of reasons depending on the build. Since XGTE one thing that has constantly infuriated me is something that goes like this:

'You may as well be a Hexblade'

Even if it has absolutely no bearing or relevancy to the build, you may as well since the abilties are good and you can just Cha a weapon.

And then you see that build after build. It's boring and detracts from the other options.

Breathing as a Dragonborn can be epic, when it's your defacto move a few times a day the tough fight of the day, it just becomes routine. In this case, unbalanced and un-needed routine.

Here is the problem with your example.

Dragonborn aren't a subclass within the class, and Dragonbreath isn't either. Your example would be more accurate to saying that if you are playing a warlock you should take Eldritch Blast.

Which, hey, yeah, that is a bit annoying. But not because Eldritch Blast is boring, but because nothing else even comes close to eldritch blast for the warlock. HOWEVER, nothing else SHOULD come close for a Dragonborn using Dragonbreath. Like a Rogue who uses Sneak Attack, yeah, you do it all the time, and it is a no-brainer to use it when you can, but that is your thing, and taking it away and nerfing it isn't what people want.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same thing for the scales, really - you could give them scales as weak as you wanted, and it would still feel more thematic. Even AC 11 tortle armor would "feel" scalier than human flesh, and again, it would be ribbon-grade..

I could see giving them the 11+Dex ac. 99% of the time, it would be useless. But it would feel cool.

[Dork_Forge]

+1 is still succeeding 50% of the time (11-20) And I wasnt' seeking them out specifically. I mean, sure I avoid listing giants, and you had already listed Ogres, but most everything else was +1 or +2.

And I was trying to stay below CR 10, while also not giving you monsters like Gricks and Grells that wouldn't be used as often.

That was a tired brain fart for me on the success rate.

So, in your opinion, a +1 Dex is a decent Dex score?

Not sure why you cut off there.

Honestly because I was most of the way through this reply when my PC crashed and on the second write up I just wanted to get it done.

But, okay, the Chain Devil is facing a DC 13. But here is the thing, you can't just judge this ability by "is it useful before level 5", it needs to be useful at level 14 too. Most racial abilities are generally useful. This needs to be good enough that it is going to be used in combat, not just when cleaning up goblins and kobolds.

I mean... what metric are you using for 'most racial abilities are generally useful' (at all levels)? A lot of them are only useful in specific situations, a direct opposite to what you're saying, so I'm not sure what your basis for any of this is.

Who said single big enemies? At level 11 you can still face multiple enemies. Just, instead of being a squad of orcs, you get a squad of Minotaurs, who have 76 hp. An AOE using 4d6 for 14 damage is just not quite as useful, since even as a solid blow you are dealing 18% of their health, where before you were hitting for 50% or more.

I mean, I just assumed based off of you saying 'Giants, Dragons, powerful fiends, powerful undead?' As a lot (maybe most idk) of what you were listing are both physically too large to bank on aoeing them and otehrs, and you probably wouldn't have many accompanying creatures with them.

What are you really expecting from this, Fireball level damage? Again I tend to buff the damage a little in my game, but heck even your example: Doing 18% of damage to multiple (potentially all) enemies on the board is pretty damn good, it leaves them significantly injured for the rest of the party to clean up. A racial ability that stands alone instead of being an enhancement, shouldn't compete with other prime things at those levels unless it's a niche situation. Otherwise it greatly belittles classes and what roles the other party members may choose to build for.

That is what I meant. Even as an AOE, the damage numbers didnt' keep up to make it worthwhile compared to taking your normal action.

And I think it should be buffed, I add an additional die, I just don't think a blitz of buffing is what's needed, warranted or good for the game.

Why would he get creamed? What was different about using his breath weapon if it required Misty Step to run away compared to using his normal action?

I didn't think I really needed to elaborate on this, but okay: He was down to less than 30% health, cut off from the rest of the party by more enemies than there was party members. I was using Star Spawn, so he'd have disadvantage to attack the ones that were in front of him anyway, but the reality is this: he wasn't going to kill any of them with two attacks and he needed to get out of dodge or go down. If he attacked them to do more damage to fewer of them, then that's largely irrelevant since after his Misty Step, those monster were then at the back of the group.

By doing what he did, he got away whilst damaging most of them, including the ones that the party would then take on first, which were not the ones he'd be able to melee.

But while it is a team game, it is also a resource management game. If I'm using a second level spell slot to run away after I injury a bunch of enemies with another ability, isn't it better for the team if I could use a 2nd level spell to just kill the enemies instead? Can't get creamed that way.

I don't know why you're assuming killing them was possible in a single action, by taking the course of action he did, he unified most of the party, stopped himself going down (and as he is the primary healer and only member with access to rez magic) that probably stopped a potential TPK happening.

I don't think you actually addressed what Paladins get Burning Hands, but the only AOE he had access to was his breath and Fireball (from a boon, that he had already expended). Just because a slot was used to escape going down, does not mean an option was available for that slot to be used in a damaging way otherwise, nevermind better damage wise than the breath in question.

And, if they are close enough to be finished off by a breath weapon, aren't they close enough by level 5 to be finished off with two melee attacks? Wouldn't I soften up the enemy more by using my weapon to deal 2d8+12 damage instead of 3d6?

Is your assumption here sword and board and dueling? This happened at level 13 and he didn't have Dueling, but to be blunt no, not necessarily. I'm not sure why you seem to be switching over to single target assumptions now either, you listed the damage of both attacks, but just the damage for the aoe would be applied to everyone in the aoe to some degree.

Your very argument (and I'm not saying this is intentional) is very, very misleading in how it's presented.

And your last point just highlights the issue for me. "I literally can't do anything else and don't want to waste my turn." That shouldn't be what your dragon breath feels like. It shouldn't be a "I'd rather use this than waste my turn" it should be something you actively desire to use.

I listed a single additional condition, where a racial ability means that a character can still participate, that's a good thing, you're talking like it's the only time a player would want to use it.

And I'm telling you that unless you want to pigeon hole it for one class or the other, it needed the buffs it got.

You can't say that without justification. What about prof times per day makes it better for terms of equality? It doesn't.

Why is that not okay? What exactly might happen from them being able to do this? They are using a daily resource for about 5d8 damage. That feels pretty standard to me. Maybe a little bit high, but not ridiculous.

Your numbers again veer into favourable territory. It's an aoe, that 3d8 breath weapon will be multiplied across enemies caught into it and there's no reason why teh Bladesinger would use something like Ray of Frost (2d8) and not Firebolt (2d10) or Toll the dead (2d12, since you just blasted them you know they're injured).

And you say daily resource, it's a Wizard, with plenty of spell slots (and Arcane Recovery) to use on other turns and encounters, adding something like this to the bag of tricks is a significant boon, especially since it isn't a spell.

Most tables aren't doing more than 1 short rest per day, if that. A lot of them aren't doing any. So, yeah, I think that is why WoTC is shifting over to Prof per day, because a lot of short rest abilities were becoming daily abilities, and they weren't balanced that way.

Prof per day doesn't line up with two expected SRs a day, it's strictly better level 5 onwards and equal if you're a table that has only one short rest per day before then.

Was there a survey I missed where a lot of people have no short rests at all? Because that isn't a game problem, that's a table problem.

Obviously. But there are plenty of times that it is no-brainer to use it. That is why you took the cantrip you took, right?

This is a little frustrating as I'm not sure if you genuinely don't see the difference or you're playing devil's adovcate because you like the buffs.

A cantrip is not the same league, if you took a damage cantrip then you're using a cantrip instead of what your class gave you. If you could do what your class gives you, then why are you using the cantrip? If it's a niche that means it's the only thing to do, that's something you complained about with the breath weapon. And again, if you use the cantrip, you're not doing anything else. It is a choice to do that or something else. The breath weapon in this UA fits in alongside what an Extra Attack character woudl normally do. That's not the same thing at all.

You said it was a no-brainer that gets used all the time. Every time Poison resistance comes up, it is a no-brainer. Does this critique only apply to active abilities?

...yes.

If it is a passive ability you don't get a choice, so it can't possibly be a no-brainer.

So... your Goliath is a Rogue/Eldritch Knight multi-class with a feat? Well, yeah, you might not get as much use out of reducing damage to yourself if you have two or three other ways to do it.

To a Barbarian who got shot with a lightning bolt though... kind of a no-brainer to reduce that damage.

Hoo-boy, really? I wasn't listing options availble to a single character, I was listing possible reactions that it could clash with to show how Goliaths of different classes and builds could face a choice to make.

Since you felt like ridiculing it though, here's a few different real world examples from two different groups, neither player frequents optimisation boards, all players with drastically different game history:

Sorcadin with Sentinel: normal OA, Sentinel reaction, Shield, Channel Divinity option (Redemption)

Barbarian/Rogue with Defensive Duelist: Normal OA, DD, Uncanny Dodge

Straight Paladin with Magic Initiate: Normal OA, Shield

Having multiple reactions you can take is not only possible, it isn't even uncommon. The Barbarian that reduces damage from the Lightning Bolt loses out on any potential OAs. That said there's no reason that Barbarian couldn't have Shield Master, or Mage Slayer etc.

To you. Not to everyone else.

Fair enough.

Here is the problem with your example.

Dragonborn aren't a subclass within the class, and Dragonbreath isn't either. Your example would be more accurate to saying that if you are playing a warlock you should take Eldritch Blast.

Which, hey, yeah, that is a bit annoying. But not because Eldritch Blast is boring, but because nothing else even comes close to eldritch blast for the warlock. HOWEVER, nothing else SHOULD come close for a Dragonborn using Dragonbreath. Like a Rogue who uses Sneak Attack, yeah, you do it all the time, and it is a no-brainer to use it when you can, but that is your thing, and taking it away and nerfing it isn't what people want.

Nothing should come close for a Dragonborn using Dragonbreath? Really? What about anything they get from their class or any feats?

If you do reply, I would like to see why you think all of them are necessary instead of jsut saying they are, and I'd like some examples of all of those racial abilities that remain universally useful no matter the level of play, without being very niche. Active abilties preferred since, y'know, you actually have to make the choice to use them, but whatever you can find would be nice.

[Protolisk]

I mean, let's look at some common aspects of dragons that they don't have.
- Any sort of natural armour.
- Wings
- Frightful Presence
- Any draconic skills (e.g. Perception or Intimidatein lieu of the aforementioned Frightful Presence)
- Darkvision
- (minor) Blindsight
- Natural weapons (claws, bite, tail)
- Change Shape (for metallic dragons)

Half of these are available to Dragonborn. As feats. To give them it again would be to make the feats redundant. Which would go some way to reducing power creep that people tend to claim WotC is doing little to stop. How much should be given to a race to start with?

Xanathar gives natural armor, natural weapons, and dragon fear over 2 feats. The fear especially makes sense for a feat because not even real dragons are born with the fear aura.

The Wings are available, technically, to the Gem variant. Perhaps we should make that available to all of them, as a choice?

And the skills could be chosen by basically anyone. Which I suppose isn't needed because you don't need something (the intimidation skill) in lieu of something else (the fear) when you have access to that fear. I also thought they were trying to move away from skills from races (at least stated. I know other recent UA had then again). Even then, they are skills. You could pick them up from your class or background at level 1 anyway. So literally every dragonborn PC can have them.

The only things they don't have any access to naturally are the vision upgrades and Shapechange. I'm fine with the lack of vision because everyone in the edition has darkvision and it's kinda of overblown. As for Shapechange, that's stuff very high level spells are for, unless you are okay with a watered down version like Disguise Self.

These feel like non-issues to me.