New UA: Draconic Options

[Amechra]

Am I the only one who's a little annoyed that Warlocks don't get any of these spells? I get it for some of the more dragon-y ones, but my Fiend Bladelock would love Flame Stride. Come on, WotC, I even dipped Draconic Sorcerer (for the free Mage Armor and a few slots to use Absorb Elements/Shield with), what more do you want from me?

[Amnestic]

Am I the only one who's a little annoyed that Warlocks don't get any of these spells? I get it for some of the more dragon-y ones, but my Fiend Bladelock would love Flame Stride. Come on, WotC, I even dipped Draconic Sorcerer (for the free Mage Armor and a few slots to use Absorb Elements/Shield with), what more do you want from me?

Giving spells to warlocks would step on the toes of wizards getting every spell, sorry.

[Amechra]

They should've been Warlocks of the Harbor, I'm telling you.

[Dork_Forge]

They should've been Warlocks of the Harbor, I'm telling you.

My entirely unbiased opinion: Sorcerers of the Inlet

[SharkForce]

Does the Gem Dragonborn (and presumably Gem Dragons with them) mean they're going to take another stab at psionics?

as I recall, their conclusion after they gave up on the mystic was basically "turns out this is hard, we give up on it".

that doesn't mean they couldn't change their mind, but I suspect it does mean that we're going to see a lot more "this effect that works exactly like any other similar ability is totally psionic because we say so" rather than anything really new or interesting.

[MaxWilson]

Giving spells to warlocks would step on the toes of wizards getting every spell, sorry.

Except that an individual wizard doesn't.

You get roughly 4 picks from every spell level, so unless a UA spell is better than all but 3 spells of a given level for a given wizard's build, it might as well not exist. You'll get more sympathy from me if you complain about the druid spells in this UA, because they really are accessible to all druids.

[Dork_Forge]

Right my thoughts:

-Still not a fan of Tasha's stat rules being pushed upon us, this time it looks like they remembered they omitted the +1 +1 +1 option and I suspect will role that back into the others. Part of the identity of Humans is their versatility, when everyone is versatile it's meaningless.

Chromatic Dragonborn

-Hate the Breath weapon changes, lost the personality of the aoe type, simulataneously buffed the dice and the action economy

-Immunity is too much, at minimum needs the time toned down

Metallic Dragonborn

-Still hate the Breath weapon

-It's neat that they are varying up the breath weapon type, incapp'd is too much and by my reading, there's no reason you can't 'take the attack action' and then sub out both attacks for incap gas followed by element breath.

Gem Dragonborn

-Now not only do I hate the Breath weapon, it's even a better damage type, so I think it's fair to say I hate it more now

-Telepathy, not really opposed to this, I don't like how common telepathy is very quickly becoming, but I like the trend towards Psionics

-Wings... really? Did we need more racial flight?

Overall my feelings are that the Gem Dragonborn is just flat better than the other two. Not only do the get better damage types, they get two abilties on top of that vs the 1 of the others.

Kobolds

So... they just 180'd their default theming entirely huh?

They seem like a better Halfling in some ways tbh

-Advantage on Frightened, but Dragonborn don't? Make it a dragon people thing or don't, like Fey Ancestry, this is just weird

-A cantrip from the Sorcerer list... but choosing your own stat for it? No thank you.

-a 1d6 tail attack... why? Why on earth does a tiny Kobolds tail do more damage than a Tabaxi's claws? And why of all things did they go with a tail attack instead of teeth or claws?

-Draconic Roar, so they smashed Pact Tactics and Cower, Grovel, Beg together into this. An overall more powerful feature, that makes absolutely zero thematic sense. This needs a hard nerf, minimum either make it once per SR, or make it an action and the kobold unable to benefit.

Gift of the Chromatic Dragon

I like it, very powerful potentially though

Gift of the Metallic Dragon

-Cure Wounds should be locked to a stat, don't like this trend in general and hate the idea of Wizards being able to get what they aren't meant to have easily and synergistically.

-I like the wings, since it's a die maybe make it a d6 though or 1d4+1

Gift of the Gem Dragon

Not a fan tbh, casters didn't really need another defensive tool, let alone one as potent as this.

Spells

Not going to go over them all, just hate that the Wizard gets everything for no good reason.

Draconic Transformation- Pretty potent, wish the breath weapon wasn't tied to Force

Fizban's- resistance to five damage types, half cover and Evasion. Don't really understand why this exists tbh and don't like it, regardless of it being a 6th level spell has the potential to trivialise encounters

Flame Stride- This is really neat, but it being a 3rd level spell means the Artificer and Ranger aren't getting to use it until higher levels and that kinda sucks, just restrict it more and make it 2nd level

Summon Draconic Spirit- did we really need more summoning spells after the ones we got in Tasha's...? Seems a bit much, getting a high AC dragon for an hour at 9th level and a personal resistance.


Overall not impressed, but I will share some of my bigger take aways here:

-This isn't just race bloat anymore, it's active fragmentation of the game. We didn't need different rules for Kobolds and Dragonborn (especially after the two varieties that were also in Wildemount). You want more dragon people then make new names for them at the very least.

The Breath weapon this just, UGH. I don't think that the breath weapon was ever that bad to begin with, the common change I make in my games is to just add an additional die from the get go so the damage is a little more tempting. What I hate about this is what I hate about the 'make it a bonus action' fix, it doesn't make it a choice, it makes it an inevitability and that's boring. There's not real opprotunity cost if you have Extra Attack, it's just better than attacking (especially if you're a Gem Dragonborn) but to make matters worse... Not only did they majorly buff the action economy of it, they also increased realistic uses (making it more novable at the same time) and increased the die size whilst stripping any personality out?!

It's power creep so horrendously steep I'm struggling to see how it'll hit final form tbh.

The new race UAs are just increasingly worrying about the direction of the game.

[Zevox]

Am I the only one who's a little annoyed that Warlocks don't get any of these spells?

Given I have actually played a Fey patron Warlock whose patron was Nathair Sgiathach, I do find myself disappointed that Nathair's Mischief in particular isn't a Warlock spell.

[P. G. Macer]

Right my thoughts:

~Snip~

I agree with a few of your points, but couldn’t disagree more on most of them. From what I’ve seen, the general consensus amongst players is that the PHB dragonborn is tied with the Standard Human for the weakest race in the game, and the breath weapon in particular was very anemic. You argue that the breath weapon in the UA is made into an “inevitability” with the buffs, but before this it was inevitable that the majority of players would never use the breath weapon post-Tier 1, if not post-Level 1, because the opportunity cost was so high Martial dragonborn players would do less damage than with attacking twice, and spell casters do more damage with 1st-level spells such as Burning Hands or Thunderwave.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I get the impression that outside of optimization boards, the Volo’s Guide kobold was not well-received, especially the Grovel, Cower, and Beg and Sunlight Sensitivity features. I know that player in a campaign I was in had a kobold character that did not use GCaB once across all eight levels and 18 months that the campaign lasted, because it was so against the character concept, even when it would have been tactically useful.

In general, I don’t give the “Kobolds are supposed to be cowardly” argument much weight, because not only does Volo’s Guide say that it’s only a largely incorrect stereotype about them, but player characters are supposed to be exceptional, so even if kobolds were cowardly by nature, PC kobolds shouldn’t be pigeonholed into that style of play, nor should reflavoring be a requirement to use a character feature and not be comic relief.

I do agree with you DorkForge on the chromatic’s immunity being too strong and the wizard need not get every single new spell, and the Gem Dragonborn is currently stronger than the other two. However, the flight ability is both limited-use and gated behind 3rd level, just like the Protector Aasimar’s flight, so I think it’s not too big a deal on its own, and only problematic in that the Gem gets more than the Chromatic and Metallic.

Finally, I feel like you’re being a tad hyperbolic with your claims about the fragmentation of the game, though I agree that post-Tasha’s there has been a dramatic paradigm shift in 5e design, especially as it pertains to race, to the point that I agree with the crowd that says 5e post-TCoE is 5.5e in all but name. But to make claims about the power creep (which I agree is there, mind you) as being “horrendously steep” seems uncalled for.

[Dork_Forge]

I agree with a few of your points, but couldn’t disagree more on most of them. From what I’ve seen, the general consensus amongst players is that the PHB dragonborn is tied with the Standard Human for the weakest race in the game, and the breath weapon in particular was very anemic. You argue that the breath weapon in the UA is made into an “inevitability” with the buffs, but before this it was inevitable that the majority of players would never use the breath weapon post-Tier 1, if not post-Level 1, because the opportunity cost was so high Martial dragonborn players would do less damage than with attacking twice, and spell casters do more damage with 1st-level spells such as Burning Hands or Thunderwave.

I buff the breath weapon in my own games in different ways as I mentioned, my problem here is two fold:

1) The breath weapon is buffed in three different ways (four if you're a gem Dragonborn), it was undertuned before, but definitely not by this much.

2) Making it substitute an attack makes it 'why not' and that's boring to me. There's no real opportunity cost there, it's why I never liked making it a bonus action either.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I get the impression that outside of optimization boards, the Volo’s Guide kobold was not well-received, especially the Grovel, Cower, and Beg and Sunlight Sensitivity features. I know that player in a campaign I was in had a kobold character that did not use GCaB once across all eight levels and 18 months that the campaign lasted, because it was so against the character concept, even when it would have been tactically useful.

I DM a kobold Bard now, he's been playing his character about a year, he chose it for the flavour. I DM'd a kobold Wild Magic Sorc in a one shot at Christmas, he also chose it for flavour. Neither players are really optimisers and neither frequent a board like this, ime the flavour is why people want to be a Kobold, then they start figuring out how to deal with the negatives afterwards.

Personally I just wanted them to be made consistent, give them a +2 +1 spread, and either enhance their Darkvision or remove the Sunlight Sensitivity, as they were they were needinglessly counter to how those abilities were represented in other races.

IMO it was clear that the monstrous races section rules were largely written as afterthoughts since they were optional 'monstrous races'

In general, I don’t give the “Kobolds are supposed to be cowardly” argument much weight, because not only does Volo’s Guide say that it’s only a largely incorrect stereotype about them, but player characters are supposed to be exceptional, so even if kobolds were cowardly by nature, PC kobolds shouldn’t be pigeonholed into that style of play, nor should reflavoring be a requirement to use a character feature and not be comic relief.

I don't think they need to be cowardly and I don't like the default flavour of CGB, but I find doing a 180 on it just plain weird. Since when are they particularly brave amongst races? Since when did they roar when their dialect is described as yipping..? It's just a weird reversal of the old theming, when theming didn't need to be so built into them to begin with.

I do agree with you DorkForge on the chromatic’s immunity being too strong and the wizard need not get every single new spell, and the Gem Dragonborn is currently stronger than the other two. However, the flight ability is both limited-use and gated behind 3rd level, just like the Protector Aasimar’s flight, so I think it’s not too big a deal on its own, and only problematic in that the Gem gets more than the Chromatic and Metallic.

Level 3 restrictions are meaningless for anything but spells imo, any lower and fliers will fall out of the air from a Goblin's arrow anyway, and take a failed death save from hitting the ground. Giving a race a flight ability, when you're simultaneously giving them a hugely buffed breath weapon is going to lead to a lot of 'I fly over them and just breath down directly on top of them, so I don't get any allies' I know because I experieced the same thing with a Dragon's Breath'd familiar in one of my games.

Finally, I feel like you’re being a tad hyperbolic with your claims about the fragmentation of the game, though I agree that post-Tasha’s there has been a dramatic paradigm shift in 5e design, especially as it pertains to race, to the point that I agree with the crowd that says 5e post-TCoE is 5.5e in all but name. But to make claims about the power creep (which I agree is there, mind you) as being “horrendously steep” seems uncalled for.

There's nothing hyperbolic about this in my opinion, though I think you may have misunderstood why I said it was fragmentation. I wasn't referring to the power level, I was referring to existing races being rehashed, especially when Dragonborn already have other versions published. They don't have subraces like Elves and Dwarves to build on, and this is very clearly a rework at the perceived weakness of the PHB Dragonborn. To me that's fragmenting the game.

I'm going to play a Kobold!

Okay but which book version Kobold are you going with?

I'm going to play a Brass Dragonborn!

Okay but what book version Dragonborn are you going with?

These shouldn't be questions, the fact that they are, is fragmentation.

In general the power creep, in particular for the races, well I stand by that being steep. As a bonus action giving everyone in your party, including you, advantage prof times a day? Higher damage, more frequent use, breath weapons that you can still make an attack with?

It's pretty significant creep.

[Kane0]

Don't forget that UA has a strong history of being overtuned and cut back after feedback rather than being too weak and buffed for release (if there is a release).

Agreed that some of this is a little too much but not beyond the overtuning that is common to UA. What irks me is that the flavor appears to be entirely mutable for Kobolds and neither of these races get ribbons, it's all straight combat stuff and nothing cool that makes you feel draconic when you're NOT in the process of torching some poor fool.

Edit: And the spells being given to some odd classes.

[Chaosmancer]

I legitimately don't understand why people seem to have a problem with Dragonborn actually using their iconic ability more than once.

Remember, the DC save for this and the original breath weapon were Constitution. Everyone's 2nd or 3rd stat. So, you were likely looking at a DC of 12 for most character. Most monsters have at at least a decent dex, so they are going to 50% of the time take half damage.

In the original version, 2d6 at half damage is 3 damage. That is tiny. Past CR 1/4 enemies, you aren't going to see that as a legitimate option. Maybe for a bard. But get to level 6 or 7 and this is just never going to be used. That bit about it being worse than Burning Hands was 100% true, it doesn't equal Burning hand until 6th level. And I don't see a lot of mid-level wizards tossing out Burning Hands.

Even know, with it being 2d8 and then 3d8, most casters aren't going to use it except for minion clean-up, because their spells are going to be more impactful. But, now, martials will actually use it, and yes, it is a source of AOE damage for martials, and it is good... but why is that a problem? Obviously it is more powerful than it used to be, but when it was so weak, that isn't a bad thing.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Even know, with it being 2d8 and then 3d8, most casters aren't going to use it except for minion clean-up, because their spells are going to be more impactful. But, now, martials will actually use it, and yes, it is a source of AOE damage for martials, and it is good... but why is that a problem? Obviously it is more powerful than it used to be, but when it was so weak, that isn't a bad thing.

Bouncing off of this as well, I see some criticism that there's nothing to make you feel very "draconic" here.

Even though, as far as the mechanics of actual dragons go, you have access to what is very likely their most defining feature*. There aren't mechanics involved in acting like a dragon, but a Human is going to have a much harder time of it than the Dragonborn, especially when that Dragonborn can finally use those mechanics more than once per rest.
*The other potential defining features are available through Xanathar's racial feats.

To be clear, disliking the fact that there are no out of combat utilities is a very valid criticism but I feel that using that argument to say that the race lacks anything to be distinct isn't.

[Dork_Forge]

I legitimately don't understand why people seem to have a problem with Dragonborn actually using their iconic ability more than once.

They've always been able to use it more than once, being able to use it more than once per short rest, whilst also buffing damage and action economy starts to become an issue.

Remember, the DC save for this and the original breath weapon were Constitution. Everyone's 2nd or 3rd stat. So, you were likely looking at a DC of 12 for most character. Most monsters have at at least a decent dex, so they are going to 50% of the time take half damage.

Most monsters have a decent Dex? The top low level monsters that came to mind (probably influenced by LMoP and SKT) are:

Goblin- +2

Orc- +1

Orgre- -1

Out of those three (all fairly iconic D&D monsters imo) only the Goblin is hitting the 50% mark, so 3 damage half of the time (which is still half their health) on the worst example isn't bad, especially when that's 3 aoe damage, and you'd be unlucky for them all to succeed. Then that's with a +2 Con, if not only is +3 certainly doable at first level, it's actually what one of the Dragonborns I'm currently DMing has, coincidentally a Dragonborn. The only buff I made to his breath was to add a die to it, he's used it multiple times, only unhappy when he made the poor choice to use it on Hell Hounds assuming resistance not immunity.

In the original version, 2d6 at half damage is 3 damage. That is tiny. Past CR 1/4 enemies, you aren't going to see that as a legitimate option. Maybe for a bard. But get to level 6 or 7 and this is just never going to be used. That bit about it being worse than Burning Hands was 100% true, it doesn't equal Burning hand until 6th level. And I don't see a lot of mid-level wizards tossing out Burning Hands.

If you have a group you need to aoe, it can certainly be an option, but you're looking at the worst case you shouldn't talk only of succeeding on the save when there's plenty of times they'll also fail.

The comparison with Burning Hands is also muddied imo, this is a dedicated resource where as Burning Hands is eating a slot that could be used for something like Shield and is a leveled spell, locking you out of something like bonus action Misty Step (Breathing and Misty Stepping is also a tactic the other Dragonborn I Dm has done a couple times, a Paladin).

Even know, with it being 2d8 and then 3d8, most casters aren't going to use it except for minion clean-up, because their spells are going to be more impactful. But, now, martials will actually use it, and yes, it is a source of AOE damage for martials, and it is good... but why is that a problem? Obviously it is more powerful than it used to be, but when it was so weak, that isn't a bad thing.

If they chose spells relevant to the encounter, if they still have slots left, if they aren't saving those slots for potential future encounters or worst case yadda yadda. There's still plenty of cases where a caster might want a none spell aoe option.

I don't think anyone has argued that martials using it more is a problem, I don't think anyone has even argued that buffing a breath weapon is bad. The issue here is that it's buffed 3(4) different ways at once, all of those ways tying together to stack on each other.

The original breath weapon is not a great option a lot of the time, but when you can still attack once as normal? That's significantly better, they could have stopped there.

The issues for me are that they went overboard on the buffing and made it boring. Being more useable doesn't mean making it a no brainer, there's basically zero reason to not use all of your charges every day with this UA version, there's not real opportunity cost and that's boring, then you have the crazy creep on top of that.

Could they walk it back on release? Definitely, it's their doctrine, but we can't rely on that (look at the Hexblade) and they clearly aren't just motivated by feedback (did anyone really fight for such a heavy prof mod per day push like we've seen implemented?) and at the end of the day:

This is the version presented for evaluation, if it's overpowered it should be called out as such and not relying on asssumed nerfing.

They need to pick a buff to the breath and stick to it instead of throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the wall. This kind of thing would be better done with multiple versions, like they used to do with things before the big book push.

Bouncing off of this as well, I see some criticism that there's nothing to make you feel very "draconic" here.

Even though, as far as the mechanics of actual dragons go, you have access to what is very likely their most defining feature*. There aren't mechanics involved in acting like a dragon, but a Human is going to have a much harder time of it than the Dragonborn, especially when that Dragonborn can finally use those mechanics more than once per rest.
*The other potential defining features are available through Xanathar's racial feats.

To be clear, disliking the fact that there are no out of combat utilities is a very valid criticism but I feel that using that argument to say that the race lacks anything to be distinct isn't.

I'd like to see them have access to the intimidation skill to represent Frightening Presence maybe, ideally maybe a small ribbon use of their element. The Kobold... eh? If you called it something it else and omitted the word dragon, it wouldn't really feel draconic, all the elemental flavour and breath weapon that carries dragonborn is understandbly absent from them.

I'd have rather seen the Kobold tweaked and presented as an entirely new dragon folk personally.

[quindraco]

Am I the only one who's a little annoyed that Warlocks don't get any of these spells? I get it for some of the more dragon-y ones, but my Fiend Bladelock would love Flame Stride. Come on, WotC, I even dipped Draconic Sorcerer (for the free Mage Armor and a few slots to use Absorb Elements/Shield with), what more do you want from me?

Warlocks get Raulothim’s Psychic Lance, a... leveled spell where on a successful save nothing at all happens. >.>

For me, what's really missing for warlocks is a draconic invocation. The really low-hanging fruit would be an invocation granting an energetic breath weapon, I think, with a charisma-based DC.

[OvisCaedo]

The issues for me are that they went overboard on the buffing and made it boring. Being more useable doesn't mean making it a no brainer, there's basically zero reason to not use all of your charges every day with this UA version, there's not real opportunity cost and that's boring, then you have the crazy creep on top of that.

While I can agree that it's generally bad protocol to buff a whole bunch of aspects at once, even if the starting item in question is bad, statements like the bolded one just... baffle me. It's a resource, of course you're going to want to use all of it if appropriate situations arise. The only reason you wouldn't is if the action was so bad it wasn't even worth taking. The point of decision is "is THIS circumstance where I want to use it, or should I save the resource for a potential better opening that might come up later?". Maybe it's not pressing enough in five minute adventure days, but then EVERY long rest resource becomes absurd. Generally much more so than a couple of decent AOE attacks sprinkled in by the martial! But for anything longer, I don't think proficiency bonus times a day is really all that high of a number of uses to cause problems.

You might be right overall about the buffs being too much on top of giving them third level features, but "players will want to actually use their racial feature" is... not much of a criticism or design flaw. Especially when the third level features are all single-use per day themselves; dragonbreath BETTER be something they want to use as much as possible, it's the majority of what the race even gives them. (especially since circumstances where the resistance are relevant are also more likely to be circumstances where the breath is resisted)

[Dork_Forge]

While I can agree that it's generally bad protocol to buff a whole bunch of aspects at once, even if the starting item in question is bad, statements like the bolded one just... baffle me. It's a resource, of course you're going to want to use all of it if appropriate situations arise. The only reason you wouldn't is if the action was so bad it wasn't even worth taking. The point of decision is "is THIS circumstance where I want to use it, or should I save the resource for a potential better opening that might come up later?". Maybe it's not pressing enough in five minute adventure days, but then EVERY long rest resource becomes absurd. Generally much more so than a couple of decent AOE attacks sprinkled in by the martial! But for anything longer, I don't think proficiency bonus times a day is really all that high of a number of uses to cause problems.

Maybe I can word it better but you're basically hitting it on the head, when the action economy cost becomes so cheap, it becomes a question of, well why wouldn't I? Friendly fire isn't a huge concern ime if you go into encounters thinking you'll want to aoe at some point, so it's mostly the opportunity cost holding you back. That's my issue, it isn't an opportunity cost apart from 'well I might want to heavily use this later' and at the crux of it, that's boring to me.

Separately from that issue, prof mod per day isn't just realistically more uses (I'd guess it works out to be more uses for a lot of people from 5 onwards), it's that you can bunch those uses up to nova. There's a Dragonborn Figher (Level 7) in one of my games, I can guarantee if I do allow this, I'll see something along the lines of: attack, breath, action surge, attack, breath on a semi regular basis. Not only do I not particularly want nova spam friendly dragon's breath in my games, it doesn't even make sense, actual dragons can't breath at will, it's a recharge ability, I feel SR recharge suits that better.

You might be right overall about the buffs being too much on top of giving them third level features, but "players will want to actually use their racial feature" is... not much of a criticism or design flaw. Especially when the third level features are all single-use per day themselves; dragonbreath BETTER be something they want to use as much as possible, it's the majority of what the race even gives them. (especially since circumstances where the resistance are relevant are also more likely to be circumstances where the breath is resisted)

I think I articulated my argument a bit better than 'players will actually want to use their racial feature' but please let me know if I've been unclear or muddled at any point.

They are once per day features, that doesn't amount to much since they're going to be used in nova type situations for the most part, I mean as written I don't see why a Metallic martial wouldn't double breath in a turn and I don't see why Gem's wouldn't regularly just breath from above to minimise friendly fire angles. That all strikes me as a whole bunch of nope when I don't get why they have those abilities to begin with, I mean Dragonborn already get resistance did they need another ability alongside a buffed breath weapon? Did they need another combat ability period?

Then there's the problem of Gem dragonborn just being straight better than the others. Better damage types, more abilities, a minute of flight vs more limited scope other 3rd level abilties...

Oh and you can go for full versatile stats built in, with a mixture of distribution options.

It's a mess, pick one (or two more minor) buffs to dragon's breath, and give them something flavourful rather than stripping flavour away (all breath weapons function the same in this UA).

[Amnestic]

Warlocks get Raulothim’s Psychic Lance, a... leveled spell where on a successful save nothing at all happens. >.>

For me, what's really missing for warlocks is a draconic invocation. The really low-hanging fruit would be an invocation granting an energetic breath weapon, I think, with a charisma-based DC.

Casually drops my Dragon Patron, based on the dragonfire adept from 3.5, including some invocations.

Bouncing off of this as well, I see some criticism that there's nothing to make you feel very "draconic" here.

Even though, as far as the mechanics of actual dragons go, you have access to what is very likely their most defining feature*. There aren't mechanics involved in acting like a dragon, but a Human is going to have a much harder time of it than the Dragonborn, especially when that Dragonborn can finally use those mechanics more than once per rest.
*The other potential defining features are available through Xanathar's racial feats.

To be clear, disliking the fact that there are no out of combat utilities is a very valid criticism but I feel that using that argument to say that the race lacks anything to be distinct isn't.

I agree. I didn't see any criticism about the original dragonborn not feeling 'draconic', just that it was weak. These new versions are more 'draconic' since they're leaning into the chrom/metal split more. To me it almost feels like looking for something to complain about them.

Yeah, a ribbon about a hoard or something might not go amiss, it's a ribbon after all, but it's hardly necessary.

[quindraco]

Casually drops my Dragon Patron, based on the dragonfire adept from 3.5, including some invocations.



I agree. I didn't see any criticism about the original dragonborn not feeling 'draconic', just that it was weak. These new versions are more 'draconic' since they're leaning into the chrom/metal split more. To me it almost feels like looking for something to complain about them.

Yeah, a ribbon about a hoard or something might not go amiss, it's a ribbon after all, but it's hardly necessary.

That sickening breath is ridiculous. Why isn't it 1 minute of Poisoned?

That first invocation is also a doozy. Geas at will, with a murder-rider? Are there currently any invocations with a 5th level spell at will?

[Amnestic]

That sickening breath is ridiculous. Why isn't it 1 minute of Poisoned?

That first invocation is also a doozy. Geas at will, with a murder-rider? Are there currently any invocations with a 5th level spell at will?

'cos I thought poisoned was simultaneously stronger (up front effect for disadvantage immediately, rather than requiring 3x failed saves) and too weak (commonly immune). The limitations (level, uses, multiple saving throws) means I don't think it's an issue to stack exhaustion. If a late game enemy fails 5x consecutive dex saving throws, chances are you were going to win the fight anyway.

As for the geas, I forgot the 1/LR thing mostly.

[Kane0]

Yeah, a ribbon about a hoard or something might not go amiss, it's a ribbon after all, but it's hardly necessary.

*Toots own horn*
One page back, in the spoilers.

[diplomancer]

Maybe I can word it better but you're basically hitting it on the head, when the action economy cost becomes so cheap, it becomes a question of, well why wouldn't I? Friendly fire isn't a huge concern ime if you go into encounters thinking you'll want to aoe at some point, so it's mostly the opportunity cost holding you back. That's my issue, it isn't an opportunity cost apart from 'well I might want to heavily use this later' and at the crux of it, that's boring to me.

Separately from that issue, prof mod per day isn't just realistically more uses (I'd guess it works out to be more uses for a lot of people from 5 onwards), it's that you can bunch those uses up to nova. There's a Dragonborn Figher (Level 7) in one of my games, I can guarantee if I do allow this, I'll see something along the lines of: attack, breath, action surge, attack, breath on a semi regular basis. Not only do I not particularly want nova spam friendly dragon's breath in my games, it doesn't even make sense, actual dragons can't breath at will, it's a recharge ability, I feel SR recharge suits that better.

I agree you have a point, but SR recharge is also not the best solution, I believe. Just have it a proficiency/LR maximum AND a recharge mechanism like dragons (recharge on 5-6, once per round). This way you will be able to use it in many fights, sometimes more than once, but you are not using it as a Nova.

[KorvinStarmast]

I finally got a chance to review this UA. Lots to like.
1. Metallic Dragons upgarde: better.
But this is OP; incapacitated is quite a tough condition.

• Each creature in the area must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become incapacitated until the start of your next turn.

I am otherwise replacing the dragon born thing for the two Gold Dragon Born in the game I DM (they are level 6) with the features in this UA. I like the shove/knocked prone, although why it isn't 10' versus 15 or 5 is unclear to me.

2. Raulothim's Psychic Lance
I am taking it. Not sure if the "incapacitated until start of next turn" is a bit too strong of a rider, but I like it as a player.

3. Summone Draconic Spirit:
Material component is "an art object from a dragon’s hoard, worth at least 500 gp"

Really? I guess gating it behind this allows a DM to restrict access to the spell?
I don't care for it, but it doesn't come on line before level 9 so there are ways to figure this out as a PC: quest item, eh? While I like the thematic part of that, as a practical matter in AL play how do you get such an art object?
(Oh, I forgot, pay money, get a certificate, yeah, that's the ticket! /s)

But I do like the summoned dragon.

4. Gem Dragons: I like it, generally, as it's a reach back to AD&D 2e, but with no Gem Dragons in the MM now, uh, what?

5. Kobolds. I'll need to read that again, not a fan of kobolds as player race but I understand that they have been a popular choice for many years.

[P. G. Macer]

4. Gem Dragons: I like it, generally, as it's a reach back to AD&D 2e, but with no Gem Dragons in the MM now, uh, what?

5. Kobolds. I'll need to read that again, not a fan of kobolds as player race but I understand that they have been a popular choice for many years.

If I were a gambler, I’d be betting significant money that we’re getting a full or near-full set of gem dragon statblocks in the widely-speculated upcoming dragon book. We already got the Adult Sapphire Dragon with the Sapphire Anniversary Dice Set (if you understandably don’t want to drop several hundred dollars on it, it’s also available on D&D Beyond for a few dollars that go to Extra Life).

As I have stated a few times, my (admittedly anecdotal) impression is that the idea of playing a Kobold is popular amongst players, but the Sunlight Sensitivity, flavor of Grovel, Cower, and Beg, and formerly the –2 STR turned many people off. The new version is likely being made to appeal to those people.

[KorvinStarmast]

As I have stated a few times, my (admittedly anecdotal) impression is that the idea of playing a Kobold is popular amongst players, but the Sunlight Sensitivity, flavor of Grovel, Cower, and Beg, and formerly the –2 STR turned many people off. The new version is likely being made to appeal to those people.

I like it well enough, except 1d4 for the tail strike, not 1d6. Tabaxi, medium critter, only get 1d4 for their claws, so a small critter ought not be getting a 1d6 bludgeoning strike

I will put that in the feedback when the survey comes up.

[MaxWilson]

That sickening breath is ridiculous. Why isn't it 1 minute of Poisoned?

That first invocation is also a doozy. Geas at will, with a murder-rider? Are there currently any invocations with a 5th level spell at will?

Don't forget, Geas normally takes 1 minute to cast, not 1 action. This lets you cast it in combat.

[Luccan]

I like it well enough, except 1d4 for the tail strike, not 1d6. Tabaxi, medium critter, only get 1d4 for their claws, so a small critter ought not be getting a 1d6 bludgeoning strike

I will put that in the feedback when the survey comes up.

Could this be because 1d4 bludgeoning is already what fists do? I'm not updated on errata for the core books, but didn't they change it so everyone does a d4 as default? At least d4 Tabaxi claws provide a different damage typing, the tail slap is just redundant without the damage boost

[MaxWilson]

Could this be because 1d4 bludgeoning is already what fists do? I'm not updated on errata for the core books, but didn't they change it so everyone does a d4 as default?

No, fists do 1 + STR.

[Chaosmancer]

They've always been able to use it more than once, being able to use it more than once per short rest, whilst also buffing damage and action economy starts to become an issue.

Sure, you could use it more than once per day, if you were willing to devote your entire action to it. But in practice a situation where it was worthwhile might come up once, maybe twice. And after 5th level... rarely at all.

Most monsters have a decent Dex? The top low level monsters that came to mind (probably influenced by LMoP and SKT) are:

Goblin- +2

Orc- +1

Orgre- -1

Out of those three (all fairly iconic D&D monsters imo) only the Goblin is hitting the 50% mark, so 3 damage half of the time (which is still half their health) on the worst example isn't bad, especially when that's 3 aoe damage, and you'd be unlucky for them all to succeed. Then that's with a +2 Con, if not only is +3 certainly doable at first level, it's actually what one of the Dragonborns I'm currently DMing has, coincidentally a Dragonborn. The only buff I made to his breath was to add a die to it, he's used it multiple times, only unhappy when he made the poor choice to use it on Hell Hounds assuming resistance not immunity.

Bugbears have +2
Quite a few fiends like Chain devils and the like have +2 or higher
Snakes have +2
Dire Wolf is +2
Drow are +2 or higher
Giant Spiders have +3
Gnolls are +1 or higher for gnoll leaders
Bandits are +1
Guards are +1
Ghouls are +2
Hobgoblins +1
Kobolds +2
Owlbear +1
Yuan-Ti +2

It is... fairly easy to find monsters with +1 or +2 Dex. And what about the big things. What about at 11th level when you are fighting Giants, Dragons, powerful fiends, powerful undead? Is 10 damage really worth your entire action?

Because remember, a lot of racial abilities are equally useful late game as early game, and this one most certainly was not.

If you have a group you need to aoe, it can certainly be an option, but you're looking at the worst case you shouldn't talk only of succeeding on the save when there's plenty of times they'll also fail.

The comparison with Burning Hands is also muddied imo, this is a dedicated resource where as Burning Hands is eating a slot that could be used for something like Shield and is a leveled spell, locking you out of something like bonus action Misty Step (Breathing and Misty Stepping is also a tactic the other Dragonborn I Dm has done a couple times, a Paladin).

If you are fighting a horde of small enough creatures that is worthwhile, and you have misty step, you can spend two major resources for... minor damage.

Maybe for a paladin who would rather injury three or four creatures instead of killing two, it could be useful, or if you are really fighting some low CR critters while at mid levels you might be able to kill them, but then why bother with the Misty Step, and if the goal is to clear them out, a 2nd level Burning hands is 4d6, much more guaranteed, and based off a spellcasting DC. And you were going to use a 2nd level slot to misty step anyways, but you might not need misty step if you actually killed all the monsters.

If they chose spells relevant to the encounter, if they still have slots left, if they aren't saving those slots for potential future encounters or worst case yadda yadda. There's still plenty of cases where a caster might want a none spell aoe option.

If it is literally the last possible option that they only use when tapped out... it isn't an iconic part of the race you want to define your character. The problem was that the use of Dragonborn's breath weapon was often procceeded by "well, I have nothing better to do, so I might as well..."

I don't think anyone has argued that martials using it more is a problem, I don't think anyone has even argued that buffing a breath weapon is bad. The issue here is that it's buffed 3(4) different ways at once, all of those ways tying together to stack on each other.

The original breath weapon is not a great option a lot of the time, but when you can still attack once as normal? That's significantly better, they could have stopped there.

The issues for me are that they went overboard on the buffing and made it boring. Being more useable doesn't mean making it a no brainer, there's basically zero reason to not use all of your charges every day with this UA version, there's not real opportunity cost and that's boring, then you have the crazy creep on top of that.

Could they walk it back on release? Definitely, it's their doctrine, but we can't rely on that (look at the Hexblade) and they clearly aren't just motivated by feedback (did anyone really fight for such a heavy prof mod per day push like we've seen implemented?) and at the end of the day:

This is the version presented for evaluation, if it's overpowered it should be called out as such and not relying on asssumed nerfing.

They need to pick a buff to the breath and stick to it instead of throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the wall. This kind of thing would be better done with multiple versions, like they used to do with things before the big book push.

See, the issue is that this should be useful for spellcasters and martial characters. Martial Characters needed to be able to use it and attack. Spellcasters needed the damage buff. They are moving away from once per short rest and towards prof per long rest, due perhaps to the changing gameplay style of people not having two short rests per adventuring day with 6 to 8 encounters.

So, this isn't just them throwing spaghetti at the wall, this was making sure that the breath weapon was iconic and useful for all of the classes. I'm sorry you find using something to be a no brainer. So is using your high elf cantrip, or having poison resistance as a dwarf, or using the Goliath's stone Endurance. There are a lot of racial abilities that are "no-brainers" I don't see how this being actually useful suddenly is a bad thing.

[Dork_Forge]

Sure, you could use it more than once per day, if you were willing to devote your entire action to it. But in practice a situation where it was worthwhile might come up once, maybe twice. And after 5th level... rarely at all.

That's entirely table dependent, if a DM favours hordes, if a particular damage type becomes valuable yadda yadda.

They always could use it more than once, that was the point, not whether it was universally useful.

Bugbears have +2
Quite a few fiends like Chain devils and the like have +2 or higher
Snakes have +2
Dire Wolf is +2
Drow are +2 or higher
Giant Spiders have +3
Gnolls are +1 or higher for gnoll leaders
Bandits are +1
Guards are +1
Ghouls are +2
Hobgoblins +1
Kobolds +2
Owlbear +1
Yuan-Ti +2

It is... fairly easy to find monsters with +1 or +2 Dex. And what about the big things. What about at 11th level when you are fighting Giants, Dragons, powerful fiends, powerful undead? Is 10 damage really worth your entire action?

So you've spent some time and made a list of 14 creatures, of those 14 creatures 5 have a +1 and would still fail more often then they'd succeed. And you went looking for these creatures specifically. So maybe we have differing ideas what a 'decent Dex' is, because a +1 to a save isn't decent in anyway.

So, your original claim was 'most monsters have a decent Dex, so they're going to save half the time' given the DC of 12 you're looking for a Dex of +2. You went looking for mosnters with positive Dex and came back with a list over a third of which was below that bonus. So do most monsters havea +2 dex? I genuinely don't know, but I'd hazard a guess that a substantial amount that do, are kinda irrelvant, see:

-Chain Devils are CR 8, why on earth would you be fighting them before 5th level? So realistically the DC goes up to at least 13... And regardless it's a Fiend, full of Fiendish resistances and immunities. Depending on your element you might be happy to get damage out at all.

You can't grab higher level creatures and hold them to a mediocre tier 1 DC, when they likely wouldn't ever be used at those levels.

For the rest of your argument, it's an AOE, if you're using it period, it's because the damage type is relevant. Why on ea

Because remember, a lot of racial abilities are equally useful late game as early game, and this one most certainly was not.

It's an AOE, by it's very nature it depends on the game, if higher level means more single big enemies then it drops off in value sharply, nature of the beast.

If you are fighting a horde of small enough creatures that is worthwhile, and you have misty step, you can spend two major resources for... minor damage.

Did you think I was implying Misty Step was used to aid in damage in some way? He Misty Stepped away to avoid getting creamed after he got some damage in. Two major resources for minor damage is very misleading.

Maybe for a paladin who would rather injury three or four creatures instead of killing two, it could be useful, or if you are really fighting some low CR critters while at mid levels you might be able to kill them, but then why bother with the Misty Step, and if the goal is to clear them out, a 2nd level Burning hands is 4d6, much more guaranteed, and based off a spellcasting DC. And you were going to use a 2nd level slot to misty step anyways, but you might not need misty step if you actually killed all the monsters.

What Paladins get Burning Hands?

You don't need to kill creatures for damage to be useful, it's a team game and softening up enemies for the others to kill is a great tactic. Or mopping up after others, after all nobody said you had to use this ability against healthy creatures.

Then there's times where you can't reach creatures but still want to do something...

If it is literally the last possible option that they only use when tapped out... it isn't an iconic part of the race you want to define your character. The problem was that the use of Dragonborn's breath weapon was often procceeded by "well, I have nothing better to do, so I might as well..."

Something doesn't have to be useful to be iconic, a race ability will always fall behind class abilities to some, if not most degrees. If it didn't it would overshadow them.

My experience and opinion of the current breath isn't it's only useful when tapped out (though that is a valid situation as well), but I never argued that it shouldn't be buffed in someway. It should be buffed, but three ways to Sunday ain't it.

See, the issue is that this should be useful for spellcasters and martial characters. Martial Characters needed to be able to use it and attack. Spellcasters needed the damage buff. They are moving away from once per short rest and towards prof per long rest, due perhaps to the changing gameplay style of people not having two short rests per adventuring day with 6 to 8 encounters.

...why should it be equally useful for all characters? Heck a whole heap of abilties available to races now don't hit that category and they aren't bad abilities.

Everyone can derive some use out of it and that's the important part, but there's also the problems this opens up:

Now a Gem Dragonborn Bladesinger at 6th level and above can use a 3d8 force based aoe and throw a cantrip in the same turn. That's not okay, these buffs don't exist in a vacuum they need to play with the game as it stands.

So, this isn't just them throwing spaghetti at the wall, this was making sure that the breath weapon was iconic and useful for all of the classes. I'm sorry you find using something to be a no brainer. So is using your high elf cantrip, or having poison resistance as a dwarf, or using the Goliath's stone Endurance. There are a lot of racial abilities that are "no-brainers" I don't see how this being actually useful suddenly is a bad thing.

Do you really believe that they need prof uses per day for that to be the case? What would be wrong with the action economy and die changes alone? You still want to use it, you still get to use it multiple times a day, you just don't get to nova spam it anymore. Please don't say all three of these things is necessary to make the breath weapon worth while.

Your comparison are also missing the point massively:

-High Elf, if you're using your cantrip you aren't using your action for something else.

-Dwarf, I don't even know why you'd bring a resistance up, especially when the Dragonborn have one as well, it's entirely irrelevant since it just isn't up to the player if this actually gets used.

-Goliath, if you use Stone's Endurance then you don't have your reaction to Shield, or Uncanny, or OA, or Sentinel etc. etc.

When something is both so good that you want to use it, so prevalent that you can do it relatively frequently, and has action economy so cheap that you can still do your normal stuff to some degree on top, that's boring.

Maybe an example will help, Warlock dips are popular for a great number of reasons depending on the build. Since XGTE one thing that has constantly infuriated me is something that goes like this:

'You may as well be a Hexblade'

Even if it has absolutely no bearing or relevancy to the build, you may as well since the abilties are good and you can just Cha a weapon.

And then you see that build after build. It's boring and detracts from the other options.

Breathing as a Dragonborn can be epic, when it's your defacto move a few times a day the tough fight of the day, it just becomes routine. In this case, unbalanced and un-needed routine.