How to deal with combat allies, in particular pets?

[Kurt Kurageous]

They tend to be patient hunters, letting prey panic itself and exhaust itself rather than attempting to win a race or an assault against generally faster, stronger prey. When they finally make the move to finish the hunt it's to take down an elk/deer/bison by grabbing legs, neck, and/or nose to take it down and kill it. And that's multiple in the pack doing so, not one attempting to bite all those things.

Most people don't understand wolves but think they get dogs. Dogs are much more servile than wolves, and look to you to solve problems they cannot. A domesticated wolf (oxymoron) will try to figure it out itself rather than looking to it's human pack leader. Assuming it accepts a pack leader. Yes, this is a generality and your dog may be different.

Wolves/dogs have a phenomenal ability to jog/run for hours when the air is cool. They will follow a herd, cut out the old, sick, and weak, and run them to exhaustion. There just isn't a DnD mechanic to reflect this. This tactic is very similar to hyenas (by extension, gnolls) who run prey to exhaustion, harry them with nips and bites, and wait for the prey to hit (I suppose level 2 or 3) exhaustion.

I've found nature films to be a good source of tactics for my monsters. Lioness hunting party is among my favorite ambush tactic because it looks so good in my mind.

[KorvinStarmast]

There just isnt a DnD mechanic to reflect this. This tactic is very similar to hyenas (by extension, gnolls) who run prey to exhaustion, harry them with nips and bites, and wait for the prey to hit (I suppose level 2 or 3) exhaustion.

As the local gnoll chieftan told one of the PCs: you can run, but you'll only die tired. (Granted, he didn't realize that the party wizard, invisible, school of evocation, was about 100 feet away and was about to cast fireball)

[MaxWilson]

Regarding police dog training: Depends on the force and the trainer, I suppose. Dogs aren't often used in rundowns, more often to disarm and incapacitate. Making someone feel a lot of pain is an effective way to make them drop a weapon, so several thrashing bites is what does that. Sending a dog to grab a criminal by the leg and not let go is a good way to get a dog shot or stabbed.

Interesting, thanks!

As the local gnoll chieftan told one of the PCs: you can run, but you'll only die tired. (Granted, he didn't realize that the party wizard, invisible, school of evocation, was about 100 feet away and was about to cast fireball)

(Laughs.)

[Thunderous Mojo]

Is there any particular reason why we don't train police dogs to bite and hold on, like wolves do? That seems ideal for police scenarios like arresting a fleeing criminal.

Grabbing and holding onto an appendage was the Standard Practice for Police Dogs.

I was born into a family of AKC dog trainers, have shown dogs myself since I qualified to be a Junior Handler, (read minor), and one of my family's great friends was Fon Johnson...whom professionally trained Police Dogs for California Police Departments.

A Police Working dog should release the suspect, ideally, at the first command. (Though in practice, a second command is often needed).

Now many Police Agencies in the United States now use Working Animals trained in Germany, so perhaps the procedure has changed. Some of what cookieace has stated, does not seem entirely accurate to me, but this may be a misunderstanding on my part or a change in training methodology and goals in general.

Regarding police dog training: Depends on the force and the trainer, I suppose. Dogs aren't often used in rundowns, more often to disarm and incapacitate. Making someone feel a lot of pain is an effective way to make them drop a weapon, so several thrashing bites is what does that. Sending a dog to grab a criminal by the leg and not let go is a good way to get a dog shot or stabbed.

I agree with this. I do wish to state, that I highly suspect that Frontline Military Unit 'War Dogs' are actually trained to flush out, engage, and disable in a more aggressive manner than Police Dogs were trained to do in the 1980-1990s.

My 9 1/2 year old German Shepherd is my ,(deceased), little cousin's retired 'war dog' and while the dog has the best tracking nose of any dog I have owned....the dog doesn't follow typical American Kennel Club tracking commands.

She does release squirrels on command though, when she catches them.
Are there any military trained Dog Handlers on the board?

(My cousin, when alive and on active duty was very reticent to discuss operational aspects of training for his units dogs...which I understood)

[Lord Torath]

Citation needed.

<snip>

That's a pretty decent citation, and while still anecdotal, is much more ... respectable? trustworthy? expansive? informed?... let's go with 'informed' than mine.

I should add that the dog in my anecdote was also protective in public. He knew who his people were, and would defend their infant and toddler against others, unless one of 'his' people vouched for them. His owners were serious about his training, though.

Still just a single anecdote, though, compared to your direct experience with dogs.

[Terebin]

I generally prefer to let player strategies work. As long as there isn't a ranger or druid in the party, I am not very worried about bought hirelings overshadowing dedicated pet class features. If there is a dedicated minionmancer, I would want to make sure that player is feeling some kind of pay off for their choice. But, I think buying allies is one of the better uses of gold. Trained dogs are really good at some applications (tracking, searching, alerting) and less effective at others (surviving ranged attacks).

PS no one should use any of the claims about animal behavior in this thread in real life, it borders on dangerously incorrect

[cookieface]

PS no one should use any of the claims about animal behavior in this thread in real life, it borders on dangerously incorrect

For sure. I would not advise anyone to use my non-expert advice regarding dogs, and rather consult the many dedicated websites and books to that subject rather than a TTRPG forum. I've generally only learned that training dogs to attack is generally unhealthy for both dog and trainer and was making a point about that.

My greater point is that training an animal to do things that are not natural behaviors is hard. It requires hours, weeks, even months worth of attention, and constant reinforcement. Thinking "I can buy a mastiff in-game and tell it to attack in that fight later today" is not at all realistic. Using animal companions like that is reserved for summoning spells and beastmasters; if a player attempted to do so outside of those options I would make it pretty difficult, but achievable through a lot of downtime dedication.

ETA: Additionally, letting everyone know that, despite wolves and bears and other predators being scary and capable of inflicting huge amounts of damage to another animal, their actual hunting techniques are very different from "combat" as it works in DND. I can't think of many wild animals IRL that would stick around for round two if life-threatening danger was apparent to them after round one. Wild animals are survivalists and would usually rather run than fight to the death.

[Elbeyon]

If the players are wanting better allies, it is 2 gold a day for an expert hireling! A CR 5 gladiator has 112 hp! Fourteen gold for a weeks worth of help on a quest isn't a bad deal.

[Tanarii]

If the players are wanting better allies, it is 2 gold a day for an expert hireling! A CR 5 gladiator has 112 hp! Fourteen gold for a weeks worth of help on a quest isn't a bad deal.

Pretty sure an Expert Hireling is more like a CR 1/8 Guard.

And dungeon delving or questing probably merits danger pay or a share of the loot ...

[Terebin]

For sure. I would not advise anyone to use my non-expert advice regarding dogs, and rather consult the many dedicated websites and books to that subject rather than a TTRPG forum. I've generally only learned that training dogs to attack is generally unhealthy for both dog and trainer and was making a point about that.

This, specifically, is not true. No one wastes times and money training a dog that doesn't want to bite.

[Elbeyon]

Pretty sure an Expert Hireling is more like a CR 1/8 Guard.

And dungeon delving or questing probably merits danger pay or a share of the loot ...

A guard is probably closer to an untrained hireling. A person could get ten guards for two gold a day! Expert hirelings are, well, experts with specialized skills, such as adventuring. A veteran (CR 3) would be an expert!

An hireling gets paid a fixed amount. Two gold per day. Anything aside from that is homebrew. Besides, the books gives hirelings that are willing to fight as an example, so danger pay is definitely not a thing.

[quindraco]

Is there any particular reason why we don't train police dogs to bite and hold on, like wolves do? That seems ideal for police scenarios like arresting a fleeing criminal.

Police dogs do exactly this. It's generally impossible to get them to release on command, in fact - they have to be physically taken off their target, since they're too excited at that point to listen.

It gets harder and harder to get a dog to obey the more stimulated it is.

[quindraco]

If the players are wanting better allies, it is 2 gold a day for an expert hireling! A CR 5 gladiator has 112 hp! Fourteen gold for a weeks worth of help on a quest isn't a bad deal.

I would spend the entire time demanding the gladiator tell me about his life, because his statline is so good it costs seven ASIs, and that's assuming he has a 2/1 racial mod, which is unclear. On top of that he's got a proficiency bonus of only +3 despite 15 hit dice, he has a weird copy of Extra Attack that lets him melee like an L11 fighter but ranged like an L5, and then he has Defensive Duelist only better because he doesn't need a finesse weapon for it, Brutal Critical, the halfling racial against being frightened while not a halfling, and then.... and then we get to his weapons.

His shield is an improvised weapon he's proficient with that does double dice damage and also inflicts a Strength save or prone against creatures his size or smaller. His spear has the same double dice damage effect, meaning it's a one-handed greatsword or he can two-hand it to outperform any weapon that actually exists, and since both the spear and shield are mundane equipment, that's pure, raw talent.

Oh, and I forgot to mention he has a third saving throw proficiency, and expertise in Athletics.

I mean, god damn. Give that man the longsword and half plate you know damn well he's proficient in and watch your enemies evaporate like butter exposed to a hot chainsaw. If 5E actually let you give up your proficiency bonus for more feats, this dude is the sort of thing that would become actually legal.

If his going rate is 2 gold a day I'd just put him on permanent retainer for 3. That's insanely cheap for a man or woman capable of this sheer level of murder.

[Tanarii]

A guard is probably closer to an untrained hireling. A person could get ten guards for two gold a day! Expert hirelings are, well, experts with specialized skills, such as adventuring. A veteran (CR 3) would be an expert!

I found why I thought a guard, it's because the DMG has this for Garrisons. But you're right on a Veteran.

Garrisons.
Castles and keeps employ soldiers (use the veteran and guard statistics in the Monster Manual) to defend them. Roadside inns, outposts and forts, palaces, and temples rely on less-experienced defenders (use the guard statistics in the Monster Manual). These armed warriors make up the bulk of a property's skilled hirelings.
DMG 127

(Also see the PHB quote below, anyone with a weapon proficiency is considered skilled.)

An hireling gets paid a fixed amount. Two gold per day. Anything aside from that is homebrew. Besides, the books gives hirelings that are willing to fight as an example, so danger pay is definitely not a thing.

Expert Hirelings might get paid more than 2 gp, per the PHB. That gladiator or mercenary willing to come into a dungeon with you might cost a lot more than 2 gp per day.

Skilled hirelings include anyone hired to perform a service that involves a proficiency (including weapon, tool, or skill): a mercenary, artisan, scribe, and so on. The pay shown is a minimum; some expert hirelings require more pay. Untrained hirelings are hired for menial work that requires no particular skill and can include laborers, porters, maids, and similar workers.
PHB 159