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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    Itís not clear why their is any functional difference for the less ranged dpr optimized melee character using a bow and maintaining distance with their likely superior speed when compared to typical DPR optimized ranged character.
    It's not clear to me who you're responding to. You said before to ask, so I'm asking: when you say you're seeking clarity on "why their is any functional difference for the less ranged dpr optimized melee character using a bow and maintaining distance with their likely superior speed when compared to typical DPR optimized ranged character", who told you that "there is a functional difference for the less ranged dpr optimized melee character using a bow and maintaining distance with their likely superior speed when compared to typical DPR optimized ranged character"?
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    It's not clear to me who you're responding to. You said before to ask, so I'm asking: when you say you're seeking clarity on "why their is any functional difference for the less ranged dpr optimized melee character using a bow and maintaining distance with their likely superior speed when compared to typical DPR optimized ranged character", who told you that "there is a functional difference for the less ranged dpr optimized melee character using a bow and maintaining distance with their likely superior speed when compared to typical DPR optimized ranged character"?
    My comment where I brought up the idea was a general comment for the thread.

    The one where you replied to it and I replied back, that was to you.

    your reply sounded more like you thought I was talking about hit and run melee combat when I was talking about a melee character pulling out a bow and leveraging some of the built in speed increases that melee focused classes often get to be better at kiting than a typical DPR focused ranged character that lacks those inherent speed boosts from their class. Hopefully that clarifies.

    My reply to you was for clarification on whether you felt the same as how you previously replied once what i was talking about became clear. I expected a more I donít think that or I still think that because X, instead of the somewhat off putting ďwho said that?Ē
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2021-05-05 at 02:53 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    I was talking about a melee character pulling out a bow and leveraging some of the built in speed increases that melee focused classes often get to be better at kiting than a typical DPR focused ranged character that lacks those inherent speed boosts from their class. Hopefully that clarifies.
    How good you are at dealing ranged damage will often determine which side will decide to give chase (I say often because sometimes that is determined by who outranges whom). Being better at dealing damage from range can also mitigate your need for speed boosts. Meaning, if you can deal enough damage to kill a pursuing enemy in 4 turns, then you dont necessarily need to outrun the enemy, you just have to keep your distance for equal to or even less than that (initial distance taken under consideration). Sometimes it's because of terrain limitations too. You may only have a couple rounds which you can use for kiting, so boosting your ranged attack is meaningful in such scenarios too.
    Hacks!

  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    My comment where I brought up the idea was a general comment for the thread.

    The one where you replied to it and I replied back, that was to you.
    I responded to a question: "Isnít kiting more about speed than how good you are at hitting with and shooting a bow?" The answer is no, it's also about the ability to apply force at range.

    I don't understand your reply in the context of my response.

    "why their is any functional difference for the less ranged dpr optimized melee character using a bow and maintaining distance with their likely superior speed when compared to typical DPR optimized ranged character"

    I can barely even parse this sentence, and I have zero interest in trying to pick one side and defend it. As Corran says, the relationship between speed and DPR is a complex one, and to some extent one can substitute for the other but the details depend on scenario.

    If you want an answer from me you're going to have to clarify your question. Maybe a good place to start would be to ask me for examples of when speed is more vs. less important than DPR; but then again, I expect you shouldn't need to ask me because if you think for two minutes you can generate plenty of examples yourself.

    your reply sounded more like you thought I was talking about hit and run melee combat when I was talking about a melee character pulling out a bow and leveraging some of the built in speed increases that melee focused classes often get to be better at kiting than a typical DPR focused ranged character that lacks those inherent speed boosts from their class. Hopefully that clarifies.

    My reply to you was for clarification on whether you felt the same as how you previously replied once what i was talking about became clear. I expected a more I donít think that or I still think that because X, instead of the somewhat off putting ďwho said that?Ē
    I don't know what "felt the same" means here, and it's still not clear to me who you're trying to argue with. Clearly it's not me because the claim you're trying to argue with, about classes and subclasses rather than capabilities and tactics, is not one I've shown any interest in. I'm certainly not going to try to tell you that monks are bad at kiting, the way you seem to want me to!
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-05-05 at 03:23 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I responded to the idea that kiting is mostly about movement by pointing out that it's also about the ability to apply force at range.

    I don't understand your reply in the context of my response. Seems like you wanted to change the subject back to DPR for some reason.
    Having a bow allows anyone to apply force at range. Thatís a given and itís something equal between a ranged character and a melee character using a bow. ĎSaying kiting is also about applying force at rangeí doesnít make sense as a criticism when all the characters under discussion are doing it. Like I canít say itís not true. But itís just not relevant.

    Literally the only sensible assumption I could come up with for your comment about applying force at range was that it was intended to be about the ranged character being better at applying force at range - which translates to more dpr at range. If thatís wrong then Iím still lost as to the purpose of the comment in the first place.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2021-05-05 at 03:27 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    Having a bow allows anyone to apply force at range. Thatís a given and itís something equal between a ranged character and a melee character using a bow. ĎSaying kiting is also about applying force at rangeí doesnít make sense as a criticism when all the characters under discussion are doing it.
    What does "as a criticism" mean? All I did was answer your question. Quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    Iím not conceding the point that kiting is overvalued but i think this will add to the discussion. Letís say kiting works as advertised. Isnít kiting more about speed than how good you are at hitting with and shooting a bow?

    Barbarians get a small always on speed boost.
    Monks get a substantial speed boost.
    Paladins can summon a steed for a substantial speed boost.

    If we really are talking kiting, arenít the melee characters (characters with largely melee focused abilities) better at it than bow specialists?

    Or in the case of rangers and fighters, just as good at it as the bow specialist versions of their class?
    No, because kiting is also about your ability to apply force at range. A melee kiter is forced into a dilemma when the enemy refuses to chase them--if they chase the enemy instead, then the enemy can turn around and hit them before they get back out of range. A ranged kiter on the other hand puts the enemy between a rock and a hard place: if they chase, they die, and if they flee, they also die.
    Criticism of who or what? I don't understand how you're using the word "criticism" in this context.

    Literally the only sensible assumption I could come up with for your comment about applying force at range was that it was intended to be about the ranged character being better at applying force at range - which translates to more dpr at range.
    Literally all I did was point out that having a ranged capability makes kiting much easier--otherwise you need enormously greater speed to pull it off (and you're still vulnerable to grapples). I have no interest in arguing semantics with you about whether monks count as "ranged characters" or "melee characters," only in discussing when/whether they should pick up a bow in a given scenario.
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  7. - Top - End - #457
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    What does "as a criticism" mean? All I did was answer your question. Quote:



    Criticism of who or what? I don't understand how you're using the word "criticism" in this context.



    Literally all I did was point out that having a ranged capability makes kiting much easier--otherwise you need enormously greater speed to pull it off (and you're still vulnerable to grapples). I have no interest in arguing semantics with you about whether monks count as "ranged characters" or "melee characters," only in discussing when/whether they should pick up a bow in a given scenario.
    So letís be clear. my whole post which includes much information about melee characters and their speed and talking about how that makes them better at kiting - and you never stop to even question whether Iím having those melee characters use bows in order to make that claim (In hindsight I should have been more clear on that point)

    But when you reply to me you are intending to answer 1 a single line question and instead quote the whole post - leading me to believe itís more than a response to a single line from my quote (in hindsight you could have been more clear there)

    So in summary: we agree that having a bow (which all martial characters get proficiency with) is usually needed to kite well. We also agree that Anything more than when a character should pick up a bow you arenít interested in talking about.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2021-05-05 at 03:48 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    So letís be clear. my whole post which includes much information about melee characters and their speed and talking about how that makes them better at kiting - and you never stop to even question whether Iím having those melee characters use bows in order to make that claim (In hindsight I should have been more clear on that point)

    But when you reply to me you are intending to answer 1 a single line question and instead quote the whole post - leading me to believe itís more than a response to a single line from my quote (in hindsight you could have been more clear there)

    So in summary: we agree that having a bow (which all martial characters get proficiency with) is usually needed to kite well. We also agree that Anything more than when a character should pick up a bow you arenít interested in talking about.
    I apologize for not being more clear. I should have bolded the question I was responding to, and/or snipped the other questions.

    If you want more insight into when and whether e.g. a Barbarian can out-kite an Eldritch Knight, you might consider asking me for scenario examples of when he can and can't. But you also probably don't need me to give examples because they are pretty obvious really.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

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  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I apologize for not being more clear. I should have bolded the question I was responding to, and/or snipped the other questions.

    If you want more insight into when and whether e.g. a Barbarian can out-kite an Eldritch Knight, you might consider asking me for scenario examples of when he can and can't. But you also probably don't need me to give examples because they are pretty obvious really.
    Thanks. I should have been more clear as well but at the time I really thought I had been as Iím sure you had as well.

    Iím not sure bringing in a schrodingers EK where you explicitly set out to pick a spell that may otherwise have not been taken so that you can say you are better at X than Y is very meaningful. That kind of comparison is even more biased though because EKs are rarely touted as particularly good archers - because subclasses like Battlemaster and samurai exist. In other words it really fells like youíve went out of your way to set up an extremely unfair comparison.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2021-05-05 at 04:10 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    Thanks. I should have been more clear as well but at the time I really thought I had been as Iím sure you had as well.

    Iím not sure bringing in a schrodingers EK where you explicitly set out to pick a spell that may otherwise have not been taken so that you can say you are better at X than Y is very meaningful. That kind of comparison is even more biased though because EKs are rarely touted as particularly good archers - because subclasses like Battlemaster and samurai exist. In other words it really fells like youíve went out of your way to set up an extremely unfair comparison.
    FWIW, in this thread and others, Max in particular has been quite vocal about Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat being particularly important tools for martial characters, and Eldritch Knights as being the premier Fighter class for archers. For example, the context leading up to this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    IMO if you let the best-in-class archer today (EK) retain best-in-class access to magical weapon damage on its ranged attacks (Magic Weapon) you might as well not even bother with the ammunition houserule.
    And in another memorable thread (that I can't find right now) featuring a Mobile EK using Expeditious Retreat to solo-kite a formidable enemy (perhaps a Goristro?) in a relatively small arena with complicated terrain.

    Schroedinger's casters appear in a lot of these discussions, but I don't think many of them come from Max.

  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    Thanks. I should have been more clear as well but at the time I really thought I had been as Iím sure you had as well.

    Iím not sure bringing in a schrodingers EK where you explicitly set out to pick a spell that may otherwise have not been taken so that you can say you are better at X than Y is very meaningful. That kind of comparison is even more biased though because EKs are rarely touted as particularly good archers - because subclasses like Battlemaster and samurai exist. In other words it really fells like youíve went out of your way to set up an extremely unfair comparison.
    I didn't propose a Schrodinger's EK. "Schrodinger's" implies that it changes per scenario. I often use a standard IME EK with Expeditious Retreat and Magic Weapon (Shadow Blade is widely favored by others but I prefer Magic Weapon) so if you ask me for examples you will often see that kind of EK, but if you want to ask for e.g. scenarios where a Sharpshooter CE Battlemaster would be better at kiting than a Barbarian would, you can. But again, you probably don't need me to because they are pretty obvious (depends primarily on whether the Barbarian's extra movement speed buys enough extra time against a given monster to make up for the DPR deficit).

    I object to your characterization of my words as "extremely unfair", particularly since I'm not even insisting on that specific comparison point. But if something that seems pretty common and no-brainer to me seems like an "extremely unfair comparison" to you, well, that probably does say something about the differences between our playstyles.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

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    Why Mark of Storms Warlocks Are Better Tanks Than Most Fighters

  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Literally all I did was point out that having a ranged capability makes kiting much easier--otherwise you need enormously greater speed to pull it off (and you're still vulnerable to grapples). I have no interest in arguing semantics with you about whether monks count as "ranged characters" or "melee characters," only in discussing when/whether they should pick up a bow in a given scenario.
    I think the question being asked boils down to this:

    In some situations kiting (attacking from a distance while moving to stay out of the enemy's inferior attack range) is very effective. Almost any martial melee character is also proficient and fairly effective with at least SOME ranged weapons; they just do a bit less damage because they don't have Sharpshooter. HOWEVER, they often DO have superior mobility to ranged martial characters, either through class features (monk, rogue, barbarian) or through feats or subclasses a ranged character might be less likely to have (Mobile, eagle totem barbarian, etc). So in the cases where kiting works, shouldn't a melee character be pretty effective at it? Like, maybe they take a couple more turns to whittle down the enemy, but they're staying out of range so who cares?

  13. - Top - End - #463
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by ZRN View Post
    I think the question being asked boils down to this:

    In some situations kiting (attacking from a distance while moving to stay out of the enemy's inferior attack range) is very effective. Almost any martial melee character is also proficient and fairly effective with at least SOME ranged weapons; they just do a bit less damage because they don't have Sharpshooter. HOWEVER, they often DO have superior mobility to ranged martial characters, either through class features (monk, rogue, barbarian) or through feats or subclasses a ranged character might be less likely to have (Mobile, eagle totem barbarian, etc). So in the cases where kiting works, shouldn't a melee character be pretty effective at it? Like, maybe they take a couple more turns to whittle down the enemy, but they're staying out of range so who cares?
    It depends on relative movement speeds and other scenario factors. If the enemy is slow enough that DPR doesn't matter then yes, you can trivially kite them no matter what your ranged attack is like (which BTW 1st level wizards are better at doing than Barbarians). Other times you're spending distance instead of HP but you don't have an unlimited supply of either (e.g. a Battlemaster Sharpshooter and a Str-based Barbarian facing down a bunch of centaurs together, or there's a constrained environment where you can retreat 100' but no further before you hit a wall, a locked door, or more enemy troops), and in that case it helps to have a longer range and a better DPR.

    I want to point out BTW that kiting is not exclusively a ranged strategy. Melee kiting is a thing and some fighters are pretty good at it (Shove prone, make some GWM attacks at advantage, back away (taking an opportunity attack at disadvantage from the prone enemy) and watch the enemy waste movement standing up, rinse and repeat if they pursue you or switch to ranged attacks if they don't). Kiting is therefore somewhat tangential to the theme of this thread, which is more about the rules for ranged combat and how unrealistically good it is in the 5E ruleset. (I.e. if your enemy is slow enough that DPR doesn't matter, kiting would still work even if ranged combat were less accurate and less damaging than handgun fire in real life, where missing 10 shots at a range of only 10 yards is a thing that can actually happen.)
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-05-05 at 06:00 PM.
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    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Kiting is therefore somewhat tangential to the theme of this thread, which is more about the rules for ranged combat and how unrealistically good it is in the 5E ruleset. (I.e. if your enemy is slow enough that DPR doesn't matter, kiting would still work even if ranged combat were less accurate and less damaging than handgun fire in real life, where missing 10 shots at a range of only 10 yards is a thing that can actually happen.)
    Yeah, nothing makes you re-evaluate the "realism" of gunplay in games as quick as going to a shooting range and trying to consistently hit a perfectly stationary target, with no distractions, using a precision-manufactured modern-era gun, from like 10 yards away. But obviously the standard for ranged combat in D&D is Legolas, so here we are.

  15. - Top - End - #465
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by x3n0n View Post
    And in another memorable thread (that I can't find right now) featuring a Mobile EK using Expeditious Retreat to solo-kite a formidable enemy (perhaps a Goristro?) in a relatively small arena with complicated terrain.

    Schroedinger's casters appear in a lot of these discussions, but I don't think many of them come from Max.
    Aha, I found it! The thread is "build optimization vs. play optimization", and the Goristro stuff starts at post #47: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...3&postcount=47

    My tactical solution describing how I personally would do it is in post #62.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-05-05 at 06:56 PM.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

    Why Mark of Storms Warlocks Are Better Tanks Than Most Fighters

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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by ZRN View Post
    Yeah, nothing makes you re-evaluate the "realism" of gunplay in games as quick as going to a shooting range and trying to consistently hit a perfectly stationary target, with no distractions, using a precision-manufactured modern-era gun, from like 10 yards away. But obviously the standard for ranged combat in D&D is Legolas, so here we are.
    Well, to be fair, a decent (by this thread standard) specialized Archer IS kind of Legolas : Dexterity 18-20 (when "normal" human peak is 19, average human is 12), Archery Fighting style, Sharpshooter... They should be able to be amazing at archery. And yet they miss the vitals of their targets often, since they rarely KILL them in one arrow ;) .

    I guess we should remove Bow proficiency for some characters, because it is true that not all PC wizards should be so good at using it...

    An idea of a houserule I used sometimes which could help "re-balancing" Melee and Ranged : a critical failure in Melee means you missed. A critical failure while shooting from afar means you hit your ally if he's in Melee with your target.

    But then it might give too much of an edge to casters that rely on Saves for their cantrips.

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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Osuniev View Post
    An idea of a houserule I used sometimes which could help "re-balancing" Melee and Ranged : a critical failure in Melee means you missed. A critical failure while shooting from afar means you hit your ally if he's in Melee with your target.
    I'd argue that doesn't make ranged worse. It makes melee worse.

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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    I'd argue that doesn't make ranged worse. It makes melee worse.
    Only if the players don't think as a team. And of course that applies to monsters as well.

    It means in a party with a Paladin or a Barbarian, the Fighter who could otherwise choose Archery might prefer to use melee rather than ranged to avoid friendly fire. To me that definitely means Ranged is less good than it was.

    But I see what you mean, I could imagine the rule being frustrated for the Melee combattant. (although in the campaign we played that way, they LOVED when the arrow meant for them hit their opponent instead.)
    Last edited by Osuniev; 2021-05-05 at 07:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Osuniev View Post
    Only if the players don't think as a team.
    Or rely entirely on expendable summons for their melee meatshields.
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    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

    Why Mark of Storms Warlocks Are Better Tanks Than Most Fighters

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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Or rely entirely on expendable summons for their melee meatshields.
    Fair. But most intelligent (melee) enemies will still get in melee with the PCs most of the time...
    Last edited by Osuniev; 2021-05-05 at 07:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by ZRN View Post
    I think the question being asked boils down to this:

    In some situations kiting (attacking from a distance while moving to stay out of the enemy's inferior attack range) is very effective. Almost any martial melee character is also proficient and fairly effective with at least SOME ranged weapons; they just do a bit less damage because they don't have Sharpshooter. HOWEVER, they often DO have superior mobility to ranged martial characters, either through class features (monk, rogue, barbarian) or through feats or subclasses a ranged character might be less likely to have (Mobile, eagle totem barbarian, etc). So in the cases where kiting works, shouldn't a melee character be pretty effective at it? Like, maybe they take a couple more turns to whittle down the enemy, but they're staying out of range so who cares?
    Exactly my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I didn't propose a Schrodinger's EK. "Schrodinger's" implies that it changes per scenario. I often use a standard IME EK with Expeditious Retreat and Magic Weapon (Shadow Blade is widely favored by others but I prefer Magic Weapon) so if you ask me for examples you will often see that kind of EK, but if you want to ask for e.g. scenarios where a Sharpshooter CE Battlemaster would be better at kiting than a Barbarian would, you can. But again, you probably don't need me to because they are pretty obvious (depends primarily on whether the Barbarian's extra movement speed buys enough extra time against a given monster to make up for the DPR deficit).
    We are talking all EK's in general and not just yours. Expeditious retreat is far from a given due to their non-abjuration/non-evocation spell limitations and other good 1st level spells. Which goes back to it being Schrodinger's EK - not because you would never not pick expeditious retreat, but because when you invoke EK's in general I'm not just comparing to 'your' EK.

    I object to your characterization of my words as "extremely unfair", particularly since I'm not even insisting on that specific comparison point. But if something that seems pretty common and no-brainer to me seems like an "extremely unfair comparison" to you, well, that probably does say something about the differences between our playstyles.
    The unfairness comes from you going out of your way to pick the 1 subclass of fighter and the 1 spell that would allow you to do better at kiting. That's much too specific for a general talk about melee vs ranged.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2021-05-05 at 10:59 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #472
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    Exactly my point.

    We are talking all EK's in general and not just yours. Expeditious retreat is far from a given due to their non-abjuration/non-evocation spell limitations and other good 1st level spells. Which goes back to it being Schrodinger's EK - not because you would never not pick expeditious retreat, but because when you invoke EK's in general I'm not just comparing to 'your' EK.

    The unfairness comes from you going out of your way to pick the 1 subclass of fighter and the 1 spell that would allow you to do better at kiting. That's much too specific for a general talk about melee vs ranged.
    I'm tired of you trying to pick a fight. For the Nth time, I have never insisted on EKs specifically. That was literally an "e.g.", exempli gratia, where I was offering to compare and contrast two different PCs if you wanted to. But you're trying so hard to make it into an argument with "sides" instead of a discussion that I'm now regretting that I ever offered.

    And no, it's not just the one spell and one subclass that can kite better than a Barbarian in all or some scenarios. Sheesh. Oversimplifying much? You know you could simply ask politely how many other ways there are. Just say, "I can't think of any other ways, is that the only one? Under what circumstances do other methods work?"
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-05-06 at 12:51 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #473
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Jun 2019

    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I'm tired of you trying to pick a fight. For the Nth time, I have never insisted on EKs specifically. That was literally an "e.g.", exempli gratia, where I was offering to compare and contrast two different PCs if you wanted to. But you're trying so hard to make it into an argument with "sides" instead of a discussion that I'm now regretting that I ever offered.

    And no, it's not just the one spell and one subclass that can kite better than a Barbarian in all or some scenarios. Sheesh. Oversimplifying much? You know you could simply ask politely how many other ways there are. Just say, "I can't think of any other ways, is that the only one? Under what circumstances do other methods work?"
    When I say X. Then you respond not X. And then you somehow call it picking a fight when I reply to elaborate on why I think itís X. I donít know what to do with that. Normally thatís called a discussion. And if we canít have a discussion then I donít see a point in continuing.

  24. - Top - End - #474
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    When I say X. Then you respond not X. And then you somehow call it picking a fight when I reply to elaborate on why I think itís X. I donít know what to do with that. Normally thatís called a discussion. And if we canít have a discussion then I donít see a point in continuing.
    You say "not Y therefore X" and I say "that's a false dichtomy, it depends," and then you tell me to prove Y when Y was your idea all along, not mine.

    Not going to play that game, sir or ma'am. I only defend my own ideas, not your strawmen.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

    Why Mark of Storms Warlocks Are Better Tanks Than Most Fighters

  25. - Top - End - #475
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Jun 2019

    Default Re: Ranged DPR is Terrible

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You say "not Y therefore X" and I say "that's a false dichtomy, it depends," and then you tell me to prove Y when Y was your idea all along, not mine.

    Not going to play that game, sir or ma'am. I only defend my own ideas, not your strawmen.
    To me it sounds like you are in an alternate universe. So Iím out.

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