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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Off-the-cuff observation: that actually looks like a party where Polymorph would be very valuable, since the Tempest Cleric, the Paladin, and possibly the spores druid rely on resource expenditure to get good damage (so Polymorph can let the Paladin save smites for later, for example), while the Beast Barbarian is not only thematically compatible with Polymorph--its Rage doubles the effective HP of a Giant Ape while simultaneously increasing its damage! He'll be trading at most 3 attacks at +8ish for d6+7/d6+7/2d6+7 (35) for two reach attacks at +9 for 3d10+8/3d10+8 (49) and 157 HP. He should be BEGGING you to Polymorph him.

    I've only run parts of Rime of the Frostmaiden but I remember it as surprisingly deadly for a WotC adventure especially at level 1, but not particularly an endurance grind (more "one deadly fight" than "6-8 easy fights") so Summon Greater Demon is probably perfectly fine there. But I'd learn definitely ask the Beastbarian if they're interested in the occasional Beast Mode collaboration, and learn Polymorph if so. Under some circumstances, in tough fights, you can even potentially use SGD and Polymorph at the same time (after the demon breaks control).
    Rage and Polymorph don't work together, I believe (unfortunately; it would be AWESOME if they did).

    Reasoning is that Raging is not a condition, but a class feature, and you don't benefit from your class features when you're polymorphed.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2021-04-16 at 01:24 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32

    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Rage and Polymorph don't work together, I believe (unfortunately; it would be AWESOME if they did).

    Reasoning is that Raging is not a condition, but a class feature, and you don't benefit from your class features when you're polymorphed.
    Spellcasting is also a class feature, including casting Polymorph. If Rage ends early while Polymorphed because it's a class feature, Polymorph and other spells would also cease to work while Polymorphed, and self-Polymorphing would be impossible.

    Keeping Rage for its full duration even while Polymorphed is as valid as keeping Polymorph for its full duration while Polymorphed, QED.

    Ultimately it's a DM call but I would fully expect a reasonable DM to be sympathetic to this argument, especially because what's more thematic for a King Kong, getting really angry and powerful or maintaining wizard spells? Banning both would be a ruling I could live with (you'd have to rewrite PHB Transmuters though), but if a DM made Rage end early but let self-Polymorph work I would have the right to be dissatisfied.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-16 at 02:06 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Spellcasting is also a class feature, including casting Polymorph. If Rage ends early while Polymorphed because it's a class feature, Polymorph and other spells would also cease to work while Polymorphed, and self-Polymorphing would be impossible.

    Keeping Rage for its full duration even while Polymorphed is as valid as keeping Polymorph for its full duration while Polymorphed, QED.

    Ultimately it's a DM call but I would fully expect a reasonable DM to be sympathetic to this argument, especially because what's more thematic for a King Kong, getting really angry and powerful or maintaining wizard spells? Banning both would be a ruling I could live with (you'd have to rewrite PHB Transmuters though), but if a DM made Rage end early but let self-Polymorph work I would have the right to be dissatisfied.
    I sympathize with the argument, I really do. If I were the DM, I might probably houserule it anyway, since it's so thematic (but on the other hand, it is VERY powerful, on an already OP spell, at least at the level you get it). But "concentration" is not a class feature, it's a game mechanic, and it's what actually keeps the spell going. Furthermore, despite its name, maintaining it has nothing to do with mental abilities, but with Constitution. King Kong can't cast new spells, obviously, but there isn't anywhere, in all of the ruleset, the indication that "concentrating on a spell" is something some creatures can do and others can't, as weird as it is at first glance to have a "concentrating T-Rex".

    Being angry is not a class feature either. Anyone can get angry. An angry wizard is terrifying. Just ask Bilbo, Sam, Butterbur, Pippin, etc... Barbarian's Rage (and its associated game benefits), however, IS a class feature; only Barbarians get specific bonuses from being angry, and then only if they decide to use a rage (consider that... Barbarians can get angry and choose NOT to rage; they're not the Hulk). Why does Rage work but, say, Unarmoured Defense or Reckless Attack doesn't? Isn't recklessly attacking thematic for the angry King Kong?
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2021-04-16 at 04:34 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34

    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I sympathize with the argument, I really do. If I were the DM, I might probably houserule it anyway, since it's so thematic (but on the other hand, it is VERY powerful, on an already OP spell, at least at the level you get it). But "concentration" is not a class feature, it's a game mechanic, and it's what actually keeps the spell going. Furthermore, despite its name, maintaining it has nothing to do with mental abilities, but with Constitution. King Kong can't cast new spells, obviously, but there isn't anywhere, in all of the ruleset, the indication that "concentrating on a spell" is something some creatures can do and others can't, as weird as it is at first glance to have a "concentrating T-Rex".

    Being angry is not a class feature either. Anyone can get angry. An angry wizard is terrifying. Just ask Bilbo, Sam, Butterbur, Pippin, etc... Barbarian's Rage (and its associated game benefits), however, IS a class feature; only Barbarians get specific bonuses from being angry, and then only if they decide to use a rage (consider that... Barbarians can get angry and choose NOT to rage; they're not the Hulk). Why does Rage work but, say, Unarmoured Defense or Reckless Attack doesn't? Isn't recklessly attacking thematic for the angry King Kong?
    As a corner case, if someone readied a Polymorph to happen after you'd already activated Reckless Attack by making your first attack, Reckless Attack would theoretically work to its full duration (end of the current turn, so pretty much just your second attack and a possible bonus action attack). But you lose the class feature when you become an Ape, so if you haven't activated Reckless Attack by then it's too late. (Same would apply to Rage if you hadn't started Raging yet.)

    Unarmored Defense doesn't work because Polymorph overwrites your AC with a new AC.

    Temporarily losing class features like spellcasting doesn't negate what you've already done with those class features, such as activating Polymorph or Rage.

    In practical terms I wouldn't expect a Beastbarian to be deterred even if the DM did rule that Rage bonuses weren't available while Polymorphed--either way it's still more HP on top of his Beast HP, as long as he somehow gets Rage bonuses back once Polymorph ends. Free HP, better to-hit, more damage, and is still excellent for him, and it's not like they're actually going to use up all 150+ HP in a typical Rime of the Frost Maiden fight anyway, even without Ragesistance. What bugs me about a DM allowing self-Polymorph but not Rage is the inconsistency and its impact on my suspension of disbelief, not the impact on the actual adventure outcomes.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-16 at 05:11 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post

    Unarmored Defense doesn't work because Polymorph overwrites your AC with a new AC.
    That's not why; after all:
    "When the game gives you more than one way to calculate your Armor Class, you can use only one of them. You choose the one to use. "

    It's because, like Rage, you've lost the Class feature, and so can't have its benefits: the difference is between an "always on" class feature and a feature you activate, but the spell makes no such distinction. You simply don't have the features anymore. That's why I said earlier that "raging" is not a condition.



    Temporarily losing class features like spellcasting doesn't negate what you've already done with those class features, such as activating Polymorph or Rage.
    I'm not saying Rage ends (as long as the requirements for it not to end are fulfilled, which they probably will); I'm saying you don't get its benefits while you are Polymorphed, because these benefits are specific class features of the Barbarian; I wouldn't let a Vengeance Paladin to keep his advantage from Vow of Enmity either, or a Bladesinger to keep his Bladesong abilities after he's activated them. Would you? ¹ If you stop being Polymorphed and the Rage still hasn't finished, now that you are, again, a Barbarian, you get the benefits from it.

    It's entirely different from benefits you get from a spell, as those are independent of even having a class, so they are not part of your game's statistics; except, perhaps, spells which can only target yourself (but even those don't require being able to normally cast spells; see Ring of Spell Storing, or many other items that allow casting self-spells without requiring the spellcasting or pact magic feature).

    In practical terms I wouldn't expect a Beastbarian to be deterred even if the DM did rule that Rage bonuses weren't available while Polymorphed--either way it's still more HP on top of his Beast HP, as long as he somehow gets Rage bonuses back once Polymorph ends. Free HP, better to-hit, more damage, and is still excellent for him, and it's not like they're actually going to use up all 150+ HP in a typical Rime of the Frost Maiden fight anyway, even without Ragesistance.
    Agreed.

    Endnote:

    ¹- "Many who have observed a bladesinger at work remember the display as one of the more beautiful experiences in their life, a glorious dance accompanied by a singing blade."
    Now imagine that, on a T-REX!!!! :D
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2021-04-16 at 07:32 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Personally I'd go for Summon Greater Demon. I honestly don't really care about the sheer combat potential (though it's still good) so much as the utility it offers through demons like the Dybbuk (or homewever it's written) or the Shadow Demon.

    The long duration of the summons is kind of... Meh, to me. This is obviously biased by my experience but tipically if a summon is an actual threat it either gets focused down (thus not surviving for more then an encounter unless the enemies are too weak or the party is sinking resources into keeping the summon alive) or the caster gets focused down which is tipically a problem, though depending on their defenses and the Concentration save (and the rest of the party) it can be mitigated.

    The Slaad summon is a bit of an exception, but it's also awfully boring. It's basically just a brute.

    Notable exception if the DM rules that a necromancer wizard boosts the Summon Undead spell- if they do, it becomes both much better then the Tasha competitors and also pretty flavorful.

  7. - Top - End - #37

    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I'm not saying Rage ends (as long as the requirements for it not to end are fulfilled, which they probably will); I'm saying you don't get its benefits while you are Polymorphed, because these benefits are specific class features of the Barbarian; I wouldn't let a Vengeance Paladin to keep his advantage from Vow of Enmity either, or a Bladesinger to keep his Bladesong abilities after he's activated them. Would you? ¹ If you stop being Polymorphed and the Rage still hasn't finished, now that you are, again, a Barbarian, you get the benefits from it.

    It's entirely different from benefits you get from a spell, as those are independent of even having a class, so they are not part of your game's statistics; except, perhaps, spells which can only target yourself (but even those don't require being able to normally cast spells; see Ring of Spell Storing, or many other items that allow casting self-spells without requiring the spellcasting or pact magic feature).
    Ah, I see your argument now. I was misled by the fact that you said that "raging is not a condition," but it appears that the actual point you're trying to make is the opposite of what I thought: you're saying that Raging is a condition, but that only Barbarians get special benefits from it, whereas spells affect anyone who fits their target profile. This same logic would imply that e.g. a human who had been Dominated by Dominate Person but was temporarily Polymorphed into a chicken would cease to be dominated while Polymorphed.

    That's not the ruling I would make, but I could live with that logic/ruling as a player, because at least it's consistent. (It does raise interesting questions about what happens when you Polymorph someone possessed via Magic Jar, but that's a different subject.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Personally I'd go for Summon Greater Demon. I honestly don't really care about the sheer combat potential (though it's still good) so much as the utility it offers through demons like the Dybbuk (or homewever it's written) or the Shadow Demon.

    The long duration of the summons is kind of... Meh, to me. This is obviously biased by my experience but tipically if a summon is an actual threat it either gets focused down (thus not surviving for more then an encounter unless the enemies are too weak or the party is sinking resources into keeping the summon alive) or the caster gets focused down which is tipically a problem, though depending on their defenses and the Concentration save (and the rest of the party) it can be mitigated.

    The Slaad summon is a bit of an exception, but it's also awfully boring. It's basically just a brute.

    Notable exception if the DM rules that a necromancer wizard boosts the Summon Undead spell- if they do, it becomes both much better then the Tasha competitors and also pretty flavorful.
    IMO the primary value of long duration summons is being able to pre-cast them, so that you don't need to spend round 1 of a fight summoning them (and dealing with the weirdness of PHB initiative, whereby it's apparently better at least by RAW for summoned creatures to roll low on initiative than high, to reduce the chances of not getting to act on round 1 if they roll higher than you did). It also lets you do things like give them Inspiring Leader temp HP and/or pre-buff them or exclude them from the friendly fire of e.g. pre-cast Spirit Guardians. Summon Greater Demon tends to miss out on all of that stuff (but it's still a great spell).

    Having a pre-cast spell is also good for denying the enemy knowledge of who the caster even is, so the enemy can't focus them down, as you put it.

    RE: Necromancers, also be sure to ask the DM if killing someone via Summon Undead triggers Grim Harvest. If it does that's a ton of healing you can get during and after combat, by asking all the other PCs to use nonlethal damage whenever they reduce a monster to 0 HP, so you can finish off all the enemies via your spell and get 9-15 HP per creature killed that way.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-16 at 08:18 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    IMO the primary value of long duration summons is being able to pre-cast them, so that you don't need to spend round 1 of a fight summoning them (and dealing with the weirdness of PHB initiative, whereby it's apparently better at least by RAW for summoned creatures to roll low on initiative than high, to reduce the chances of not getting to act on round 1 if they roll higher than you did). It also lets you do things like give them Inspiring Leader temp HP and/or pre-buff them or exclude them from the friendly fire of e.g. pre-cast Spirit Guardians. Summon Greater Demon tends to miss out on all of that stuff (but it's still a great spell).

    Having a pre-cast spell is also good for denying the enemy knowledge of who the caster even is, so the enemy can't focus them down, as you put it.

    RE: Necromancers, also be sure to ask the DM if killing someone via Summon Undead triggers Grim Harvest.
    While true, from what I've seen (and from what I personally think) pre-casting them isn't a great idea. Reason being that they take Concentration, which risks you needing to drop it because you needed some other spell.

    I don't even cast Conjure Animals ahead of time with my Sheperd because of this.

    (Of course this extends to more then just summoning spells, but that's what we are talking about).

  9. - Top - End - #39

    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    While true, from what I've seen (and from what I personally think) pre-casting them isn't a great idea. Reason being that they take Concentration, which risks you needing to drop it because you needed some other spell.

    I don't even cast Conjure Animals ahead of time with my Sheperd because of this.

    (Of course this extends to more then just summoning spells, but that's what we are talking about).
    It depends. I'm just saying it's nice to have the option. I agree that sometimes you want to avoid committing too early. Other times, letting the enemy know that targeting the druid will get rid of all the snakes is a bad idea, especially if the enemy is smart enough to recognize the spell and has access to ranged attacks--druids tend to be squishy.

    Yet another reason to love Lyrandar warlocks (see my .sig) is that having to drop concentration on Conjure Elemental or Minor Elementals isn't as painful if you can get that spell slot back anyway with 60 minutes of rest. (If the DM rules that hostile elementals are hostile enough to attack you like an uncontrolled demon, you may have to kill it instead of dropping concentration but my point is about the resource cost, not the disposal method.)
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-16 at 10:21 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Off-the-cuff observation: that actually looks like a party where Polymorph would be very valuable, since the Tempest Cleric, the Paladin, and possibly the spores druid rely on resource expenditure to get good damage (so Polymorph can let the Paladin save smites for later, for example), while the Beast Barbarian is not only thematically compatible with Polymorph--its Rage doubles the effective HP of a Giant Ape while simultaneously increasing its damage! He'll be trading at most 3 attacks at +8ish for d6+7/d6+7/2d6+7 (35) for two reach attacks at +9 for 3d10+8/3d10+8 (49) and 157 HP. He should be BEGGING you to Polymorph him.
    Keep in mind the opportunity cost of concentrating on the Giant Ape - concentrating on Summon Aberration (Beholderkin) or Summon Undead (Skeletal) would add 23-24 DPR over what the Barbarian is doing by herself.

    Sure, you do get the benefit of a stack of HP, but you lose a lot of flexibility of being to use the Barbarian's class features at will.

    I also don't think the rage interpretation is supported by the rules. My understanding is that holding concentration is not a class feature, while the benefits of the barbarian's rage are.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've only run parts of Rime of the Frostmaiden but I remember it as surprisingly deadly for a WotC adventure especially at level 1, but not particularly an endurance grind (more "one deadly fight" than "6-8 easy fights") so Summon Greater Demon is probably perfectly fine there. But I'd learn definitely ask the Beastbarian if they're interested in the occasional Beast Mode collaboration, and learn Polymorph if so. Under some circumstances, in tough fights, you can even potentially use SGD and Polymorph at the same time (after the demon breaks control).
    Yes, I might just end up with Summon Greater Demon after all. I'm thinking I could take the following spells at level 7-8:

    - Polymorph
    - Conjure Greater Demon
    - Fire Shield (for resistance to cold damage)
    - Divination (as a ritual)
    Last edited by Merudo; 2021-04-19 at 05:45 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41

    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Merudo View Post
    Yes, I might just end up with Summon Greater Demon after all. I'm thinking I could take the following spells at level 7-8:

    - Polymorph
    - Conjure Greater Demon
    - Fire Shield (for resistance to cold damage)
    - Divination (as a ritual)
    Looks reasonable, if Divination is allowed as a wizard spell for you. I don't love Fire Shield but at least you're taking it for the right reason (resistance) and not as a retaliation spell (doesn't pay off).

    Personally I'd probably wind up with Polymorph, Summon Greater Demon, and two of Dimension Door / Fabricate / Arcane Eye / Evard's Black Tentacles / Sickening Radiance / Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound / Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum. Don't ask me which two or I'll start crying about all the ones I can't pick. :-P

    N.b. the Mordenkainen ones at least are forward-looking spells, not for use at level 7ish, and so is Dimension Door (it's too expensive at level 7).

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Looks reasonable, if Divination is allowed as a wizard spell for you. I don't love Fire Shield but at least you're taking it for the right reason (resistance) and not as a retaliation spell (doesn't pay off).
    Yeah I'm usually not a big fan of Fire Shield either, but I'm under the impression that there is considerable cold damage to be expected in the adventure (including the final boss). I wouldn't get it otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Personally I'd probably wind up with Polymorph, Summon Greater Demon, and two of Dimension Door / Fabricate / Arcane Eye / Evard's Black Tentacles / Sickening Radiance / Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound / Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum. Don't ask me which two or I'll start crying about all the ones I can't pick. :-P

    N.b. the Mordenkainen ones at least are forward-looking spells, not for use at level 7ish, and so is Dimension Door (it's too expensive at level 7).
    Thanks for the suggestions!

    I'm not sure if Dimension Door would work well with the party - as a goblin I'm small sized, so the only person I'd be able to teleport is the barbarian.

    Fabricate - I like the creativity in theory, but I struggle to come up with useful items to create. Also, getting the raw material might be difficult in Icewind Dale - although making snowmen and ice sculpture sounds fun!

    I think it's the first time I see Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound getting recommended. I already took Alarm as a ritual, so I'm not sure what the Hound brings to the table beside a mediocre bite attack that is even less relevant at higher levels.
    Last edited by Merudo; 2021-04-19 at 09:13 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43

    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Merudo View Post
    Thanks for the suggestions!

    I'm not sure if Dimension Door would work well with the party - as a goblin I'm small sized, so the only person I'd be able to teleport is the barbarian.

    Fabricate - I like the creativity in theory, but I struggle to come up with useful items to create. Also, getting the raw material might be difficult in Icewind Dale - although making snowmen and ice sculpture sounds fun!

    I think it's the first time I see Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound getting recommended. I already took Alarm as a ritual, so I'm not sure what the Hound brings to the table beside a mediocre bit attack that is even less relevant at higher levels.
    I'm not exactly recommending Fabricate/etc., I'm just saying what I personally would take/be tempted by. I enjoy being able to make stuff to solve problems that don't involve violence, especially for other people. I love being able to go, "here, let me knit your whole tribe fur coats for the winter from the fur of these yetis that were attacking you, and then I'll build new front doors for everyone too out of these trees!" (Note: possible RAW controversy over whether Fabricate is allowed to produce more than one object.) It doesn't accomplish any additional adventuring goals per se, but it's one of the things I love about playing D&D. I get a kick out of it. I wouldn't recommend Fabricate per se to someone unless I knew they had similar emotional drives RE: noblesse oblige and the use of power.

    Dimension Door is something I want for Contingency at level 11, for combinations with Feather Fall (e.g. concentration spell like Wall of Force + Contingency: Dimension Door 500' straight up when I say the words "up my lad" while touching my nose + Feather Fall to drift back down, as a way of protecting that combination in a tough situation). Also for teleporting out of a monster's stomach if eaten by e.g. a Purple Worm. Again, not something that's worthwhile at level 7ish but worthwhile once level 4 slots become sort of cheap. I agree that being a goblin makes it less worthwhile--for those scenarios I'd rely on a Dybukk with Dimension Door instead (it is Medium).

    Mordenkainens's Faithful Hound is an auto-kill spell if combined with a Wall of Force, but again, not applicable until level 9 at the earliest. It's important that the Hound doesn't require concentration so you can combo it with yourself even if you're the only wizard in the party, like you are. (The way I'd use it would be e.g. drop a Faithful Hound near myself and stand next to it; if a monster approaches and starts munching on me I can now Wall of Force it for an auto-kill, provided I can keep concentration long enough and it can't teleport, otherwise at least monsters are staying away from me!) IMO the bite isn't mediocre either, since it's 4d8 (18) magical piercing damage with a large to-hit bonus and advantage for unseen attacker--even if you're not using Wall of Force, it combos well with grappling, druid wildshape constriction, Repelling Blast, etc. It's not fantastic but I'm going to claim it's "solid" for a non-concentration spell, not "mediocre." It's just a bit tricky to control enemy movement to such an extent that you can claim that solid damage.

    I think you know your playstyle better than I do, and it looks like you're also using Tasha's rules, so trust your instincts and go with that Divination/Fire Shield combo! BTW Fire Shield retaliation is pretty unimpressive because it requires spending HP to do damage, but it's better than usual when combined with Polymorph, FWIW, so that's a good synergy. And it's nice that Divination is a ritual so you won't have that spells-known pressure.

    I won't say anything about the specific adventure except "enjoy!"
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-19 at 09:07 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Polymorph and SGD is an incredibly solid combo and I fully endorse it. For the two other spells you'll get on 8, I'll mention two favourites of mine that haven't actually been mentioned to my surprise:

    - Watery Sphere: It's a highly efficient combat spell, enabling repeated save-or-loses (Str-based, which is a tricky save to target in an AOE as a Wizard) against Large- targets for a whole minute. You can just toss it at the enemy every single round with a bonus action and they'll keep having to roll saves. It does allow repeat saves but if someone gets out you can simply ram it into them again (they get put prone and away so they might not be able to reach you next round) and unlike with most spells, its wording says "Anyone in the spell's space must make a saving throw" - no waiting until their turn (so reaction movement and such doesn't matter) and no limitation of one roll per round. And even on successful save it pushes people around: they get ejected if they make their save. The Large- limitation is a bit annoying but OTOH it's Str-save targeting so against Huge+ things that's generally not what you want to be doing anyways.

    - Banishment: Future-looking spell, this is the only Charisma-targeting multitarget spell on the Wizard list. Annoyingly expensive to multitarget (takes 5th level slot for two, 6th for three targets) but it's the only real choice for hitting Charisma (obviously you don't cast this as a 4th level spell very often: single target save-or-lose has the problem of the spell being wasted if the save is made so unless you're a Diviner/Chronurgist and can thus mitigate saves or the enemy is just really bad at Cha-saves, I'd be leery of casting this with only one target). And Charisma is often a bad save especially for brutish things (obviously not Outsiders though, which makes this spell a bit of a funny case where its "intended" use is one you're less likely to hit except as a Diviner).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-04-19 at 09:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Polymorph and SGD is an incredibly solid combo and I fully endorse it. For the two other spells you'll get on 8, I'll mention two favourites of mine that haven't actually been mentioned to my surprise:

    - Watery Sphere: It's a highly efficient combat spell, enabling repeated save-or-loses (Str-based, which is a tricky save to target in an AOE as a Wizard) against Large- targets for a whole minute. You can just toss it at the enemy every single round with a bonus action and they'll keep having to roll saves.
    Sadly, moving the Watery Sphere requires a full action, not just a bonus action. The opportunity cost of spending my action turn after turn on the Watery Sphere is very high and in my opinion dramatically reduces the usefulness of the spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    - Banishment: Future-looking spell, this is the only Charisma-targeting multitarget spell on the Wizard list. Annoyingly expensive to multitarget (takes 5th level slot for two, 6th for three targets) but it's the only real choice for hitting Charisma (obviously you don't cast this as a 4th level spell very often: single target save-or-lose has the problem of the spell being wasted if the save is made so unless you're a Diviner/Chronurgist and can thus mitigate saves or the enemy is just really bad at Cha-saves, I'd be leery of casting this with only one target). And Charisma is often a bad save especially for brutish things (obviously not Outsiders though, which makes this spell a bit of a funny case where its "intended" use is one you're less likely to hit except as a Diviner).
    You mention that Banishment is a good spell to upcast. However at that point, why not avoid the saving throw entirely and just cast Wall of Force?
    Last edited by Merudo; 2021-04-19 at 11:25 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46

    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Merudo View Post
    You mention that Banishment is a good spell to upcast. However at that point, why not avoid the saving throw entirely and just cast Wall of Force?
    I'm in this camp too, of preferring Wall of Force and Polymorph to Banishment.

    Now to be fair, there's also a fair number of things (e.g. Nycaloths) that can just bypass a Wall of Force via teleportation or something like it. However, there are other ways to disable them and I have generally already picked those other ways (e.g. Tasha's Hideous Laughter, or Polymorph). For me I just don't love the effect of Banishment enough to prioritize it over the other spells I want, and I'm not that excited about targeting Cha saves either, since they tend to be around the same strength as Wisdom saves anyway, better than Int or Dex saves.

    And with Polymorph/Tasha's, you can grapple/prone/restrain/etc. them before releasing concentration, unlike Banishment.

    On a side note, Banishment also runs into issues that I'd rather not to have deal with, needing customized material components for every target, which may or may not be Arcane Focus-eligible. But I think it wouldn't make my list even without that.

    Side note: Planar Binding also targets Charisma, and the only reason it matters is because Planar Binding is super expensive to cast AND elementals have unusually weak Cha saves (and even then the biggest gap between Wis and Cha saves is +/-3, for Earth Elementals), so you get more mileage than you would if it targeted Wis. But not that much more mileage.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-20 at 12:00 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Best level 4 summon spell for Wizards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Merudo View Post
    Sadly, moving the Watery Sphere requires a full action, not just a bonus action. The opportunity cost of spending my action turn after turn on the Watery Sphere is very high and in my opinion dramatically reduces the usefulness of the spell.
    Ah yes, true; I haven't used it in a while, had it in the wrong box. Even so, once you're Concentrating, it's not that bad: your action isn't necessarily all that tied up unless the fight is really rough and you can use it to run someone across Spike Growth or similar hazards even if he keeps making his saves (admittedly he has some control over where he goes). And even without the movement clause it'd be a reasonably good spell, though a bit small. Repeat saves are the biggest selling point. It's rather slot efficient, basically covering your slot expenditure for one fight with a single casting.

    EDIT: The big point is, the action to move it is almost as powerful as the action to cast it because of how it procs saves (as long as there are enemies within 30' of it, which should hopefully be the case when you're casting the spell).

    Quote Originally Posted by Merudo View Post
    You mention that Banishment is a good spell to upcast. However at that point, why not avoid the saving throw entirely and just cast Wall of Force?
    Well, sometimes you want to hit multiple targets apart from one another (you can hit any targets within 60' of you) and sometimes targets can Misty Step/Teleport/similar. Sometimes enemy might also be dangerous if at all present and sometimes you want them to drop a spell (Banishment incapacitates). You're right though, often you'll just cast WoF, but I've found Banishment useful fairly often (though admittedly that character was a Diviner, which does enhance the spell a lot; he could cast it pretty reliably out of a 4th level slot on basically anything without legendary resistance, including magic resistant high Cha Outsiders).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-04-20 at 12:16 AM.
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