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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    So, I have some family and friends asking me to run and that pushed me on finally finishing this idea that has been rumbling in the back of my head for the last while. I have home-brewed... basically every class to one degree or another, fine-tuning them to fit more in-line with the things I want.

    So, straight up, these are going to be at least slightly more powerful than the originals. I don't want them to be bonkers, just more in-line with some of the newer options.

    Now, for the champion, I kept it simple and I'll explain some of my thoughts for each class, but I wanted to take a moment and address something that I originally thought, and why I changed my mind. Isn't the battle master awesome? Why change it?

    Well, for that, let me go ahead and put up a table for the original Battlemaster

    Level Abilities
    3rd Access to the Superiority system, three maneuvers, 4 dice.

    Artisan's Tools
    7th Know your Enemy information

    2 new Maneuvers, 1 more die
    10th Dice become d10's

    2 more Maneuvers
    15th Relentless

    Two More Manuevers, 1 more die
    18th Dice become d12's



    The text in red and bold, those are the only new abilities the Battlemaster gets. And maneuvers never improve, so by the time you hit 10th level, you are grabbing your sixth and seventh choices, the things you didn't want until this point. And while increasing the die size is nice, in effect, they are just averaging a +1 damage to those maneuvers. Is that really an 18th level capstone?

    I won't argue that Battlemaster's might be one of the most powerful subclasses out of the gate, but by the time you are hitting the mid to late game, you aren't getting anything new or exciting, you are just doing the same things you have been doing all game. And while it is good damage, every ability has to be balanced to be useable by 3rd level. So, you are getting a 3rd level ability at 15th level? I didn't like that.

    So, here are the changes I made to the Battlemaster.

    3rd level? No changes. This level works as is.

    7th: No change to superiority system upgrades. Dropped "Know Your Enemy" for "Master of a Thousand Plans"

    Spoiler: Master of a Thousand Plans Text
    Show
    Starting at 7th level, your study of combat and war has given you the opportunity to plan for any encounter. You can no longer be surprised. Additionally, you gain +1 AC when flanked by enemies.


    Spoiler: Reasoning
    Show

    I've never liked "Know your Enemy". It is a vague ribbon ability that only tells you things that I would otherwise just tell people. Like "is their AC higher than yours" well, if they are wearing armor, every single fighter is familiar with all armors, so they are going to be able to tell what the AC is at a glance, not with a minute of observation.

    Originally, I tried to rework it, but the more I dug into it, the more I realized that there was just nothing I wanted to sink my teeth into.
    So, instead, I thought of what I would want from a master of tactical combat. No longer being able to be surprised in an ambush is a powerful tool, and fits really well with having the most honed battlefield reflexes. I was't entirely sure if that was good enough for a full feature, so I added the +1 AC. In my games, flanking gives the enemy advantage, so this just makes them slightly better in a bad situation.



    10th level: Superiority system improvements kept the same, moved down an Improved Relentless

    Spoiler: Improved Relentless Text
    Show

    Starting at 10th level, when you roll initiative and have no superiority dice remaining, you regain 2 superiority die.

    Additionally, if a creature fails a save against one of your manuevers during the round, they have disadvantage against further manuevers until the end of your next turn.


    Spoiler: Reasoning
    Show
    So, I used to just have this at 15th, but there were a few thoughts that changed my mind. The first thing is that 11th level is where the Fighter is going to be potentially dropping a lot of dice every turn. By this point a fighter could use every single die they have in a single turn. Which, in terms of nova damage is scary... but some manuevers aren't damage. So, I wanted to free them up, let them spend them and know that they are going to at least have a few every fight.

    As for the new part of the ability... it felt right. There are a few times that people want to chain these maneuvers together, and I wanted to give them a boost for spending them like that. This was back when this was a 15th level ability though, so I may want to push that part back up



    15th level: Still no changes to the superiority system, but I did add a new ability, Battlefield Tactics

    Spoiler: Battlefield Tactics
    Show

    Beginning at 15th level your command of the battlefield is unmathced.

    When initiative is rolled you can spend your reaction to shout a signal to your allies. Each Ally within 60 ft of you can use their reaction to move their full speed, without provoking opportunity attacks or take the Dodge action. You can use this ability once per short rest


    Spoiler: Reasoning
    Show
    So, I was leaning into this master of tactical combat aspect again, and I was thinking of ambushes. This ability is either a reposition or a hunkering down on the first round of combat. This let's the battle master look at the field and say "crap, we are in a bad spot" and react and change the battlefield. Perhaps instead of an ambush with lots of advantage, the enemy gets a free round of attacks, but all at normal. Or, the wizard they were jumping was able to scurry back and the paladin took his place.

    I feel like this is situationally very powerful, but if you are ambushing an enemy... it might not be worth it. Or it could be a free charge into the fray. Though, I've had a lot of players who have declared that they are dodging before doing something like opening a door or sticking their head around the corner, so that aspect is really only best used when you are the ambushed, not the other way around


    18th level: Kept the die improvement, but added something that felt like a real capstone. Lord of Battle.

    Spoiler: Lord of Battle
    Show

    By 18th level, your knowledge of the art of combat is unmatched. Enemies cannot have advantage when attacking you

    Additionally, if you roll a 1 on a damage die for a weapon attack, you may re-roll. If you already have a re-roll due to Great Weapon Fighting Style, Savage Attacker, or a similar ability maximize the die instead.


    Spoiler: Reasoning
    Show

    So, the meatiest bit of this for me is the first ability. I was thinking things like Gun Kata. You know where the enemy will be striking, and how to stand to give them the least amount of chance to hit you. You don't grant advantage for being restrained, blinded, ect ect ect. This is incredibly powerful, but entirely passive.

    The second ability is a bit of minor thing. Roll a 1 on damage, re-roll it. Fairly minor all things considered. The other part of it comes from some personal philosophy. I don't like stacking abilities that cancel out, and I had a guy once who had Great Weapon Style, Savage Attacker and a magical sword that let him re-roll. There were times he would roll, re-roll, re-re-roll... it got a bit tedious. And, at the end of the day, it just took too much time. I might just make this a general house rule, but I wanted to experiment with it here.



    And that is it, and while I'd like some discussion on the Battlemaster, I figured why the heck not show the opposite side of the coin at the same time. The Champion is also much maligned, and I think that isn't only because it is simple, but because the abilities end up not happening on the regular, so I did this instead.

    3rd Level: Improved Critical, Get a Second Second Wind use every short rest.

    7th: Improved Remarkable Athlete

    Spoiler: Remarkable Athlete
    Show

    Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make.

    In addition, whenever you jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier.


    Spoiler: Reasoning
    Show
    The idea that you can't be "remarkable" in athletics if you already had proficiency was just... weird. This isn't as good as Expertise in a single skill, but it also applies to EVERY check that uses those stats. Drinking alcohol, breaking doors, stealth, ect. This is truly remarkable now.

    And, I gave you more lift when you jump. They can compete with the Rogue Thief now.


    10th Level: No change, just get a second Fighting Style. I would have altered this, except Tasha's added a lot of good Styles, so you no longer have to worry about incompatible styles.

    15th: Superior critical as normal, then Superior Second Wind. Superior Second wind simply maximizes the healing from the Die.

    Spoiler: Reasoning
    Show
    This is actually a very minor boost in raw healing. By this point you are getting 1d10+15. That is an average of 20, it is now a guaranteed 25. 5 points of healing. But, it also prevents a low roll, and by being predictable, it gives the champion a better sense of when to use it,


    18th: Survivor with a kicker

    Spoiler: Survivor
    Show

    At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle.

    At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don’t gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.

    Additionally, when you use your Second Wind feature, you have advantage on Strength, Constitution and Dexterity Saving Throws until the end of your next turn.


    Spoiler: Reasoning
    Show
    I think Survivor is incredibly awesome. A potential 10 region is incredibly powerful, sure it isn't going to get you above half, but I'm okay with that.

    But, I wanted to also give some added utility to Second Wind here. If you are truly getting beat down where you need the regen, and second wind, then you are also going to get advantage on some saving throws, make you even more resilient for a turn.



    And that is that. Looking forward to some interesting discussion.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post
    Get a Second Second Wind
    So.... A Third Wind?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    I hope this doesn't sound rude, but homebrewing probably should go on the homebrewing subforum, no?
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2021-04-15 at 11:25 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I hope this doesn't sound rude, but homebrewing probably should go on the homebrewing subforum, no?
    Oh, there is one on this forum isn't there. I forget about it since I rarely go there and other forums just have it all combined.

    Is there a way for me to move it?

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    Just ask a mod real nice
    Roll for it
    5e Houserules and Homebrew
    Old Extended Signature
    Awesome avatar by Ceika

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    Thank you whichever mod moved us. I will try and do better in the future

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    Some suggestions/comments.

    Know Your Enemy has a kind of awesome (though probably unintended) use in that it is not effected by illusions or anything. And can be done basically during any conversation point. Which of these people is the bad guy? Well which one has high hit points?

    But more importantly, giving them something to do outside the usual battles is important. I wouldn’t change KYE to something completely combat focused, even if they would make them more optimized.

    Relentless. So, here’s the thing about Relentless. As written and in your homebrew the way to get the most Superiority dice per day is to use all of them on your first fight, and then you get one (or two) more every fight. A way to fix this is: When you roll initiative you gain 1 temporary Superiority Die, it is lost if not used before the end of combat.

    This gives a steady stream, but doesn’t promote dumping them all for maximum dice per day.

    Battlefield Tactics seems neat. Powerful but in a way that aids your allies.

    Lord of Battle is alright. It’s a capstone so it can be pretty good.

    Your Champion seems ok. It will remain behind basically all other Fighters in terms of damage just by how improved crit compares to basically every other damage ability. But now it definitely takes the hard to kill role for itself. I’d personally add something to better deal with magic though. Being super hard to kill means very little when you end up against mind controlling wall of force using Mages later in the game.

    I would suggest for the Remarkable Athlete ability to go a bit further. Jumping is a good start. But giving them swimming or climbing speed (or the option to choose which to take, perhaps with additional choices later on) would actually make them feel good at being more athletic than others.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post
    Master of a Thousand Plans:Starting at 7th level, your study of combat and war has given you the opportunity to plan for any encounter. You can no longer be surprised. Additionally, you gain +1 AC when flanked by enemies.
    Avoiding surprise is fun, but +1 to AC is unbelievably boring. It's small, it's circumstantial, and it's completely passive.

    I've never liked "Know your Enemy". It is a vague ribbon ability that only tells you things that I would otherwise just tell people. Like "is their AC higher than yours" well, if they are wearing armor, every single fighter is familiar with all armors, so they are going to be able to tell what the AC is at a glance, not with a minute of observation.
    Know Your Enemy tells the fighter "This man isn't wearing armor, but he's enshrouded by a magical force field and has 18 AC".

    Know Your Enemy tells the fighter "This dragon is crawling around with 25 AC, but every time it takes flight its AC drops to 10. What a soft, vulnerable underbelly"

    Know Your Enemy tells the fighter "This isn't some damsel in distress. This is a 15th level character. This woman is playing us"

    I have issues with the feature too. It takes too long, gives a very narrow range of information, and only gives you exactly the information you ask for (even if more information is available). But I wouldn't get rid of it, because studying the enemy is COOL. I would rewrite it.

    Spoiler: 1st Level Fighter Feature: Size Up
    Show
    When you see a creature clearly, you learn its current hit points. When you see a creature make an attack roll or saving throw, you learn what modifiers it added, and what damage dice it would roll or did roll on hit.


    Spoiler: 7th Level Battlemaster Feature: Know Your Enemy
    Show
    When you observe a creature using a feature, you learn the feature's description. The feature must have some observable effect in order for you to identify it.

    In addition, when you see a creature expending spell slots, points, or "uses" of a feature, you learn how many it expended and how many the creature has remaining.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Old Harry MTX's Avatar

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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    I would not get rid Know Your Enemy, but I would rewrite it, to make it more useful. Possible solutions have already been said, but I would suggest introducing a Perception check against a fixed DC to get a response with an action (or bonus action) instead of a minute. Other than that your Battlemaster looks good to me, but I find it too fight-centered. I understand that the niche covered by the Battlemaster is that of an expert martial fighter and little else, but I would try to give him features outside of combat, perhaps accentuating a role as a commander, or introducing synergies with other players.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Some suggestions/comments.

    Know Your Enemy has a kind of awesome (though probably unintended) use in that it is not effected by illusions or anything. And can be done basically during any conversation point. Which of these people is the bad guy? Well which one has high hit points?

    But more importantly, giving them something to do outside the usual battles is important. I wouldn’t change KYE to something completely combat focused, even if they would make them more optimized.
    I understand the desire to give them something out of combat, but I haven't been able to think of anything.

    Giving them social skills? Steps on the toes of the Silver Tongued manuever and makes them too much like Cavaliers, Arcane Archers, Bannerets (I've heavily modded them), Samurais, ect.

    Give them something related to war and leading troops? Most of that is pretty highly specific per campaigns, not generally useful.

    Also, while I see that working per RAW, I definetly don't like the idea of Know your Enemy being "pierce any illusion or shapeshifting" that is not intended at all.


    If you have a suggestion, I'd love to hear it, but I haven't been able to come up with something myself yet.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Relentless. So, here’s the thing about Relentless. As written and in your homebrew the way to get the most Superiority dice per day is to use all of them on your first fight, and then you get one (or two) more every fight. A way to fix this is: When you roll initiative you gain 1 temporary Superiority Die, it is lost if not used before the end of combat.

    This gives a steady stream, but doesn’t promote dumping them all for maximum dice per day.
    Someone else suggested something similar that I kind of liked. Regain 1 die every time initiative is rolled. I'm thinking of switching over to that style. Yours is better for not recharging them, but I'm not sure which I prefer.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Your Champion seems ok. It will remain behind basically all other Fighters in terms of damage just by how improved crit compares to basically every other damage ability. But now it definitely takes the hard to kill role for itself. I’d personally add something to better deal with magic though. Being super hard to kill means very little when you end up against mind controlling wall of force using Mages later in the game.
    That is a good point. I'm not sure how to do that beyond messing with Indomitable. But that is a very good point.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    I would suggest for the Remarkable Athlete ability to go a bit further. Jumping is a good start. But giving them swimming or climbing speed (or the option to choose which to take, perhaps with additional choices later on) would actually make them feel good at being more athletic than others.

    I've kind of been enamored with the swimming and climbing speed being a ranger thing. I think getting 1.5 times prof in Athletics though serves a good job. Champions aren't faster at climbing, but they are able to climb more difficult surfaces.

    Maybe something like swimming doesn't cost extra movement. It wouldn't make them as good in the water as a swim speed creature, but it would make them a lot faster? I'm not sure

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    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    Avoiding surprise is fun, but +1 to AC is unbelievably boring. It's small, it's circumstantial, and it's completely passive.
    I don't disagree. I just wanted a small, near ribbon. Because I didn't feel like the surprise was enough, but I didn't think it needed a lot more to be very good.

    And, thematically, this represents the fighter being better at finding angles to avoid being hit when fighting multiple opponents, which is a thing that feels thematically appropriate for them




    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    Know Your Enemy tells the fighter "This man isn't wearing armor, but he's enshrouded by a magical force field and has 18 AC".

    Know Your Enemy tells the fighter "This dragon is crawling around with 25 AC, but every time it takes flight its AC drops to 10. What a soft, vulnerable underbelly"

    Know Your Enemy tells the fighter "This isn't some damsel in distress. This is a 15th level character. This woman is playing us"

    I have issues with the feature too. It takes too long, gives a very narrow range of information, and only gives you exactly the information you ask for (even if more information is available). But I wouldn't get rid of it, because studying the enemy is COOL. I would rewrite it.

    Spoiler: 1st Level Fighter Feature: Size Up
    Show
    When you see a creature clearly, you learn its current hit points. When you see a creature make an attack roll or saving throw, you learn what modifiers it added, and what damage dice it would roll or did roll on hit.


    Spoiler: 7th Level Battlemaster Feature: Know Your Enemy
    Show
    When you observe a creature using a feature, you learn the feature's description. The feature must have some observable effect in order for you to identify it.

    In addition, when you see a creature expending spell slots, points, or "uses" of a feature, you learn how many it expended and how many the creature has remaining.

    See, some of that makes sense, but other stuff just doesn't make sense. Why can a fighter identify an invisible magical barrier, but the wizard isn't going to notice it? What about the 15th level character is giving them away?

    I don't think I'm getting rid of it per se, but I think more of what I want to do is make this.. not a feature. I want this to be something that players just try and do.

    As to your suggestions, I tend to find that most players figure out the modifers and dice, because I roll in the open. So, telling them "I just rolled 3d8 damage" when they saw that isn't useful at all. Also, again, why is the fighter able to identify how many spell slots a wizard has?

    IT just gets into a lot of stuff that I don't think they should be able to do, combined with a lot of stuff I don't see the value in codifying.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Harry MTX View Post
    I would not get rid Know Your Enemy, but I would rewrite it, to make it more useful. Possible solutions have already been said, but I would suggest introducing a Perception check against a fixed DC to get a response with an action (or bonus action) instead of a minute. Other than that your Battlemaster looks good to me, but I find it too fight-centered. I understand that the niche covered by the Battlemaster is that of an expert martial fighter and little else, but I would try to give him features outside of combat, perhaps accentuating a role as a commander, or introducing synergies with other players.

    Again, I don't disagree with the sentiment, but I don't know what type of abilities would actually be generally useful, out of combat, and not stepping on the toes of other fighters or battlemaster maneuvers.

    And, honest question, why can't I just let them use Perception or Insight to learn information about the enemy, using the Tactical Assessment Maneuver to boost it? It seems odd to give them an ability that seems like it should just be a thing they can try and do, and that they have the perfect vehicle for already.

    If you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them. I'm just not seeing it.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post
    I don't disagree. I just wanted a small, near ribbon. Because I didn't feel like the surprise was enough, but I didn't think it needed a lot more to be very good.
    I see what you mean. But if you're aiming for a ribbon, I think something with more impact on roleplay would be more worthwhile than a passive bonus.

    And, thematically, this represents the fighter being better at finding angles to avoid being hit when fighting multiple opponents, which is a thing that feels thematically appropriate for them
    It's totally thematically appropriate, I agree! I just think it's mechanically underwhelming, and not worth the design space it takes up.

    See, some of that makes sense, but other stuff just doesn't make sense. Why can a fighter identify an invisible magical barrier, but the wizard isn't going to notice it?
    Everyone sees a dude walking around, unremarkable. But the fighter sees that dude's shoes never scuff. His clothes never get caught on anything. Dust won't even land on him. Everything seems to be deflected at the last possible moment. The dude isn't dodging, and he isn't armored. So it must be magic of some kind. And judging by the strength and the coverage it provides, AC 18.

    The wizard isn't paying attention to people's defenses like that. Nobody but a trained tactician would. But the wizard could notice the same thing in her own way: by casting Detect Magic.

    What about the 15th level character is giving them away?
    Gaining a level in one class means something very different from gaining a level in a different class. Every fighter level represents combat training. Every wizard level represents magical study. Every rogue level represents quickened wits. But what every class has in common is that the higher your level, the more experienced you are, and the more hit points you have. In other words, the better you are at escaping death.

    Most people can't tell a survivor from a gutless bystander at a glace. But the battle master can see the way this woman never stands off balance, and never drifts too far into daydreams. Even with her hands in her pockets and he head on a pillow, the woman looks alert and ready to spring into action. If you know what that looks like. These are the marks of an able-bodied veteran: a 15th level adventurer.

    I don't think I'm getting rid of it per se, but I think more of what I want to do is make this.. not a feature. I want this to be something that players just try and do.
    I let my players try to locate traps. But the ranger can cast Locate Traps and get it done instantly.

    In the same way, I let my players TRY to assess their enemy's abilities. But the battlemaster could do it automatically.

    As to your suggestions, I tend to find that most players figure out the modifers and dice, because I roll in the open. So, telling them "I just rolled 3d8 damage" when they saw that isn't useful at all.
    Fair enough. It's still helpful for the fighter to "see health bars" so to speak. Even if you roll in the open, I imagine you don't tell players exactly how many hit points each enemy has.

    Also, again, why is the fighter able to identify how many spell slots a wizard has?
    Everyone sees the wizard shoot a laser from his fingers. It's terrifying, awe-inspiring, and distracting. But the fighter is too focused to be distracted by that. He sees the wizard's jaw go slack after casting the spell (mouth breathing?), and he sees a gleam on the wizard's brow (sweat?). Casting that spell was taxing, and the wizard can only cast a similar spell... 3 more times before he's huffing, drenched in sweat, and too tired to do it again. Plenty of energy to cast weaker spells though.

    Normal people can't accurately judge how exhausted the enemy is, but the battlemaster is CONSTANTLY making that kind of judgement. It's too tactically important to ignore.
    Last edited by GalacticAxekick; 2021-04-19 at 11:52 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Homebrewing the Battlemaster and the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    I see what you mean. But if you're aiming for a ribbon, I think something with more impact on roleplay would be more worthwhile than a passive bonus.

    It's totally thematically appropriate, I agree! I just think it's mechanically underwhelming, and not worth the design space it takes up.
    Yeah, just can't think of anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    Everyone sees a dude walking around, unremarkable. But the fighter sees that dude's shoes never scuff. His clothes never get caught on anything. Dust won't even land on him. Everything seems to be deflected at the last possible moment. The dude isn't dodging, and he isn't armored. So it must be magic of some kind. And judging by the strength and the coverage it provides, AC 18.

    The wizard isn't paying attention to people's defenses like that. Nobody but a trained tactician would. But the wizard could notice the same thing in her own way: by casting Detect Magic.
    That is a fair attempt at explaining it, but people with high insight or high perception are exactly the type of people paying enough attention to notice things like the flow of dust in the room.

    Also, a trained tactician may notice, but all adventurers are people living on the edge of danger who need to keep constantly aware of their surroundings. It still feels like something anyone would notice for a variety of reasons. And, how does the fighter know the strength of a magical field?



    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    Gaining a level in one class means something very different from gaining a level in a different class. Every fighter level represents combat training. Every wizard level represents magical study. Every rogue level represents quickened wits. But what every class has in common is that the higher your level, the more experienced you are, and the more hit points you have. In other words, the better you are at escaping death.

    Most people can't tell a survivor from a gutless bystander at a glace. But the battle master can see the way this woman never stands off balance, and never drifts too far into daydreams. Even with her hands in her pockets and he head on a pillow, the woman looks alert and ready to spring into action. If you know what that looks like. These are the marks of an able-bodied veteran: a 15th level adventurer.
    This is a really good explanation, and I agree that this is something that a martial character would notice. By why not Rangers or Rogues? In world if a Ranger wanted to look around and figure out "who is the most dangerous person here" they would notice the exact same types of behavior.

    Additionally, the second problem with Know your Enemy is that there is no roll. The 15th level woman might be a Rogue with expertise in deception, a 20 cha and reliable talent... and she can't deceive the fighter half her level? I'm not 100% behind "all player abilities should be capable of being done by NPCs" but flip that script for a second. Telling a rogue of that level and skill set "the captain of the royal guard sees through your attempts to hide your strength"

    I really prefer this type of deduction to be a roll, and to be contestable.



    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    I let my players try to locate traps. But the ranger can cast Locate Traps and get it done instantly.

    In the same way, I let my players TRY to assess their enemy's abilities. But the battlemaster could do it automatically.
    Bad Example, but I was thinking about this. There are a few things holding me back. 1) Locate Traps isn't a Hunter Ranger ability, or even a Ranger ability. It is a spell that multiple classes have access to. This is meant to be a subclass ability, limited to only that subclass. So, I have to justify "Why are Battlemasters, above all other fighters, capable of recognizing their enemies strengths? Unerringly?", and I can't justify it. All I can see is the way that other classes could do the same thing. This is a feature of being observant, not of specific battlemaster archetypes, to me. 2) The information given in Know Your Enemy is simply not worth the design space to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    Fair enough. It's still helpful for the fighter to "see health bars" so to speak. Even if you roll in the open, I imagine you don't tell players exactly how many hit points each enemy has.
    Not generally, but we do often keep track of how much damage they have taken. Which makes it easy to get a rough estimate generally.


    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    Everyone sees the wizard shoot a laser from his fingers. It's terrifying, awe-inspiring, and distracting. But the fighter is too focused to be distracted by that. He sees the wizard's jaw go slack after casting the spell (mouth breathing?), and he sees a gleam on the wizard's brow (sweat?). Casting that spell was taxing, and the wizard can only cast a similar spell... 3 more times before he's huffing, drenched in sweat, and too tired to do it again. Plenty of energy to cast weaker spells though.

    Normal people can't accurately judge how exhausted the enemy is, but the battlemaster is CONSTANTLY making that kind of judgement. It's too tactically important to ignore.

    That... doesn't fit magical exhaustion to me. That makes it physically taxing, in the same way that gaining levels of exhaustion is. It just doesn't work like that.

    I agree the Battlemaster is paying attention, but that kind of physical toll and precise measurement is jarring for me.


    I'm not trying to be a negative nelly, I'm just being honest. I don't think these would work for how I run my games.

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