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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Maybe a specific scenario would help. Combat Challenge time!

    12th level party, 4 PCs, any builds allowed by your actual play group. (E.g. no Lore Wizards unless your DM permits them in actual play. My way of cutting down on probably-OP content.)

    Don't look at the spoiler until after you post a party.

    The adventure is a multidimensional labyrinth, and it just so happens that today

    Spoiler: Don't Look Until You Post Your Party
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    they stumble across the following monsters in order, with short rests in between.

    1) Beholder at the bottom of a trap chute. 1-4 PCs (your choice based on how many you think would jump down to help the first guy) are trapped inside a kidney-shaped demiplane 40' in length and 20' wide and high. A beholder is here too, floating 10' up, and because this is a combat challenge all it will do is fight. When the beholder is dead the demiplane collapses and puts you back at the top of the chute.

    2) A Nycaloth and a Glabrezu, also in a demiplane of the same size (for simplicity of the challenge).

    3) Adult White Dragon, same.

    4) Abominable Yeti and two Chasmes.

    5) A Death Knight.

    6) A Giant Ape with human-level tactical intelligence (knows about focusing casters, etc.) and a dozen Skulks.

    7) Four Neogi Masters leveraging Hold Person and Charm plus Eldritch Blast, and two Star Spawn Manglers focus firing on paralyzed targets.

    8) A Mind Flayer Arcanist and a creature indistinguishable from a Githyanki Supreme Commander (yes, allied!).

    Then they find the exit and escape the labyrinth with the Tablets of the Gods which they stole last season and which they need to banish the influence of Ghroth the Harbinger, save life as we know it, and reach 13th level.


    After seven short rests and eight encounters over a period of about ten hours, is your party still alive?
    Oh now this seems interesting! Just to clarify, you specified PHB/Volo's/XGTE, but then the only entrant so far is entirely comprised of an Eberron race option. I know that in general you aren't a fan of Tasha's, does that extend to the whole book? Just the optional rules?

    I'd like to throw some martials in, but am eyeing Tasha's subclasses so was just curious.
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  2. - Top - End - #32

    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Oh now this seems interesting! Just to clarify, you specified PHB/Volo's/XGTE, but then the only entrant so far is entirely comprised of an Eberron race option. I know that in general you aren't a fan of Tasha's, does that extend to the whole book? Just the optional rules?

    I'd like to throw some martials in, but am eyeing Tasha's subclasses so was just curious.
    I initially specified PHB/Volo's/XGTE but then almost immediately changed my mind and edited it. In the version that you quoted I just said use whatever your actual, real life group would allow. There's no need to be overly restrictive, since this is a discussion, not a competition.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    LudicSavant's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    4 Counterspells per round you mean?
    Yes, because that's the threshold I care about -- how much it takes us to get out a Wall of Fire.

    The ideal number for that is "1 slot" using the familiar method I described. The maximum (e.g. least efficient strategy + unlucky rolls) for that is 5 slots.

    The Manglers have advantage on round 1 against anyone who hasn't taken a turn yet, to offset the disadvantage from Darkness, and enough HP to make it through the Wall of Fire. If the guy concentrating on Darkness happens to roll low on initiative, that Darkness might pop--yet another threat vector to worry about while the Counterspell war is raging.
    These giftlocks have over 100 hp, 19 base AC, Advantage on concentration, a high initiative bonus, and more healing resources than they know what to do with. The Mangler flurry does 10.4 DPR with Disadvantage, 24.3 if it cancels due to losing initiative. I'm not worried.

    BTW I don't think Synaptic Static's d6 penalty stacks with itself.
    Correct, it does not stack. Why do you bring it up?
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-04-21 at 04:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  4. - Top - End - #34

    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Correct, it does not stack. Why do you bring it up?
    Apparently I got the wrong impression from this quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    4) Accounting for their (low) Int saving throws, Synaptic Statics deal over 75 average damage each (between the 3 of them), plus totally screwing the attack rolls of these melee-reliant foes.
    It sounded like you expected to impose a huge penalty (3d6ish?) on attack rolls. I guess you really just meant that your AC is good enough that 1d6 is a relatively large penalty.

    Good point about the Manglers vs. Darkness.

    Once Wall of Fire is up, what's your plan for inflicting damage, in the "only 2 short rests" scenario? Can't Eldritch Blast now because you can't see the target. Synaptic Static? You may hit the PCs too (depends on positioning but it's only a 20' x 40' area) and penalize your own concentration saves.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-21 at 04:21 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I guess you really just meant that your AC is good enough that 1d6 is a relatively large penalty.
    Correct!

    Good point about the Manglers vs. Darkness.

    Once Wall of Fire is up, what's your plan for inflicting damage, in the "only 2 short rests" scenario? Can't Eldritch Blast now because you can't see the target. Synaptic Static? You may hit the PCs too (depends on positioning but it's only a 20' x 40' area) and penalize your own concentration saves.
    Eldritch Blast does not require you to see the target, and since they can't see you, neither side has Advantage or Disadvantage. You can therefore simply pinball them about with Repelling Blast, getting lots of damage off of hazards (like Wall of Fire, Create Bonfire, oil, etc) and repositioning them for ideal AoEs (like Synaptic Static, NOT hitting your allies!).

    As an aside, the usefulness of Repelling Blast is also why it's so easy to get multi-hits on Maddening Hex, despite its modest AoE size (though Yam doesn't take that Invocation, it's a resource-efficient damage tool for many Warlocks).
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-04-21 at 04:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  6. - Top - End - #36

    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Correct!

    Eldritch Blast does not require you to see the target, and since they can't see you, neither side has Advantage or Disadvantage. You can therefore simply pinball them about with Repelling Blast, getting lots of damage off of hazards (like Wall of Fire, Create Bonfire, oil, etc) and repositioning them for ideal AoEs (like Synaptic Static, NOT hitting your allies!).

    As an aside, the usefulness of Repelling Blast is also why it's so easy to get multi-hits on Maddening Hex, despite its modest AoE size (though Yam doesn't take that Invocation, it's a resource-efficient damage tool for many Warlocks).
    Huh. You're right, it doesn't. Apparently at some point I got myself mixed up on that. This means that True Seeing/See Invisibility is far less important for warlocks than I had believed, and one of what I thought were the core scenarios for Fighters over Warlocks just doesn't exist. Interesting, and my bad.

    Nice point about Repelling Blast + Maddening Hex.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Another consideration: most of the non damage spell things you can do are concentration. So unless you gosh, you're going to have a fair amount of time spent with a concentration spell up and not all that much you can do that isn't some form of damage.

    Casters do area blasting and control better than martials. In return, their default single target damage (unless specially built for) isn't as impressive. 5e is built around preferring more, weaker monsters to fewer, bigger ones.
    True, but often if you spend your first turn casting the concentration spell then by the 2nd turn the monsters are mixed in with your allies and not in particularly good fireball formation anymore. Unless you are an evoker or turn 1 fireballing then fireball often loses some of it's luster.

  8. - Top - End - #38

    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Results for the combat challenge (Team Fighter-ish, for comparison with Team Caster):

    Due to some unusual stat rolls, I wound up including a Warbearian (Barbarian 1/Celestial Warlock 11) in the party instead of my intended 3 Fighters, but I played the Warbarian very fightery, even where this wasn't tactically optimal. E.g. he mostly used his spell slots on Armor of Agathys before combat and Cure Wounds after, instead of chucking Synaptic Static or Hypnotic Pattern, and this almost got him killed against the Skulks (he got critted three times in one round and hit three more times on top of that, by Skulks, after the Giant Ape was already dead--if the Skulks had continued attacking him they would have killed him, but since pop-up healing isn't a thing in my universe, I decided it made sense for them not to do that, and to instead switch to taking down the Moon Druid's wolves). Anyway, the upshot is that I basically wasted his beautiful 18/18/17/15 array playing him basically like any other Barbarian except without Rage, and that's fine because this is Team Fighterish--so nobody complain about rolled stats skewing this experiment.

    Unusually for me, I used PHB initiative rules (IGO-UGO) instead of my normal WEGO rules, in order to keep the results more relatable to other people. For the same reason I also used spell slots instead of spell points, and Legendary Resistance instead of TSR-style magic resistance.

    The results were... surprisingly unsurprising. Nobody died, everybody ended the final fight healthy (the Battlemaster did end up under a Mass Suggestion to "Kneel before Zod!" but this was dealt with afterwards), nobody used any hit dice (I wanted to avoid using them because I don't allow short rest healing in my game), and the Moon Druid used up a 6th, two 5th, two 4th, and three 3rd level spell slots, so from the outside it may look like it was straightforward--but the experience of playing through was more intense and there were times when I felt like a character death or maybe even TPK was possibly in front of me. And maybe I just got lucky on the dice, or maybe (as I've found before) 5E PCs have more defensive depth than is readily apparent, and can go quite a long way on what appears to be "almost empty."

    Anyway, I had a party consisting of the following (parenthesized numbers are the original stat rolls before adjustments):

    Human Forge Cleric 1/Arcane Archer 11. Str 12 Dex 20 (15) Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 (13) Cha 9. Sharpshooter, Alert. Used his Forge Cleric power to give the Battlemaster a magical Hand Crossbow +1, so they would both have magic weapons. Alert was hugely impactful for taking out threats before they could act.

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    I was hoping Arcane Archers would surprise me and be better than I thought, but nope, the combination of Int-based saves and magic-based arrows (affected by Magic Resistance) plus only being able to use one arrow per round meant that unlike Battlemaster's Trip Attack, the Arcane Archer's Shadow Arrow never did me any good in any combat, although I may have forgotten to use it in a couple of fights. Curving Shot was occasionally useful on round 1, but overall I would have been better off with a Samurai in this particular set of fights so that I could actually gain advantage (using RAW for unseen ranged attackers instead of my normal houserule "only melee attackers gain advantage for being unseen") instead of hoping that I was going to gain advantage for me and all my buddies, and then being disappointed when Shadow Arrow failed again. Also, magic weapons turned out to be unimportant except in fight #2. [Yes, yes, I know that I wrote the fights, so at some level I must have known magic weapons weren't going to be important, but I tried to forget the details while designing this party. -Max]


    Human Battlemaster 12. Str 14 Dex 20 (18) Con 14 Int 11 Wis 14 (13) Cha 10. Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, Alert, Defensive Duelist, Skilled (Athletics and +1 to Dex). Got a lot of mileage out of Trip Attack + Action Surge (attacks at advantage) in the non-Huge fights. Didn't wind up using Skilled at all. Alert was again key to the rocket tag playstyle.

    Jorasco (Mark of Healing) halfling Moon Druid. Str 8 Dex 12 (10) Con 12 Int 11 Wis 14 (13) Cha 10. Resilient (Con), Warcaster, Healer. Got a lot of mileage out of Healer. Didn't get a lot of mileage out of Resilient (Con) and Warcaster because in the cramped quarters, I wound up making the monsters attack the low-AC glass cannon fighters more, or sometimes the warbearian if he charged into the fray.

    Lyrandar (Mark of Storms) half-elf Barbarian 1/Celestial Warlock 11. Str 20 (18) Dex 16 (15) Con 17 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 20 (18). GWM. Didn't get much mileage out of Mark of Storms (just one fight against the Death Knight where he pre-summoned an elemental, but lost control when the Death Knight went out in a 65 HP blaze of fiery glory explosion, and took another 32 HP of damage putting down the elemental). Got a lot of mileage out of Armor of Agathys and Cure Wounds V. Took Counterspell but forgot to use it against the neogis, didn't need it against the Glabrezu.

    Fight summary:

    1.) Beholder. Supernova from two Alert fighters wound up shutting it down hard. Battlemaster got Charmed when it was no longer relevant; Arcane Archer managed to avoid getting turned to stone or zapped with disintegration. Took some minor damage from Enervation but that's all, healed it with Healer and Second Wind, take a rest, moved on.

    2.) Nycaloth and Glabrezu. Again, supernova from two Alert fighters killed the Glabrezu before it could even do anything, which was glorious in a way except that I was very conscious that this was really just a form of gambling--relying on luck, instead of having contingency plans. But that's the Fighter way, so heal the minor damage (if there even was any, I forget), take a rest, and onward we go.

    3.) Dragon fight was pretty tough for the Arcane Archer, since the dragon breathed on the whole party (both Fighters took full 65 HP of damage) and then the dragon focused the Arcane Archer with several tail attacks in a row and took him down. Warbearian healed the Archer back to consciousness (it only took a few HP of healing because the dragon had only barely knocked him out, something like 104 damage vs. 99 HP, so the Warbearian's gamble to use only 2 dice of celestial healing paid off) and they killed the dragon. Shadow Arrow would have worked against the dragon except, y'know, Legendary Resistance. And Blindsight actually, but Legendary Resistance anyway.

    After this fight the druid spent his first spell slots of the session: one 3rd level slot for Aura of Vitality. Combined with Healer, Second Wind, and etc., this put everyone back at full health (plus temp HP from the Warbearian's Celestial powers). Rest, then Druid summons a couple of Quicklings with a 4th level slot to help with the next fight (since they're apparently getting tougher), and the Warbearian summons an Earth Elemental (would have picked Fire but there's no source of fire here or sufficient fuel to make one), and then onward.

    4.) Yeti and Chasmes. This fight was kind of interesting. Because I don't normally play with PHB initiative, I hadn't fully realized how annoying Chasme drone was, in that since you don't make the save and fall asleep until the start of your turn, other people can't be ready to wake you up if necessary, because on their turns you haven't fallen asleep yet! I think that's kind of dumb from a game fiction standpoint, but it did complicate this fight. I should have used Menacing Strike from the Battlemaster to keep the Chasmes at bay until the Abominable Yeti was dead, but instead I just supernova'ed the yeti and got lucky. Nobody got their HP maximum reduced, nobody got critted into oblivion by the Chasmes, although I think I got unreasonably lucky on those Con saves. C'est la vie.

    The Battlemaster didn't even Action Surge in this fight, intending to save it for the next fight so that the party wouldn't have to short rest and lose the Quicklings (to keep more spell slots available for Aura of Vitality later on). After the fight, the party continued onward immediately.

    5.) Death Knight. Again, Dex 20 + Alert plus some lucky rolls let the fighters (and the quicklings) supernova the bad guy before he could act, but he still had a few HP left. Out of spite, he chose to spend his last action throwing a 20d6 fiery explosion at his own feet, killing the quicklings, damaging the PCs, and breaking the Warbearian's concentration on the Earth Elemental, which has to be put down after landing two good solid punches right in the Warbearian's ribs (32 HP of damage IIRC).

    The party rests and heals with Healer/etc. and another Aura of Vitality, then the Warbearian casts Armor of Agathys and the Druid casts Conjure Animals V and they continue. (Druid has now spent a 5th, 4th, and two 3rd level slots.)

    6.) Giant Ape + dozen Skulks. Long story short, the fighters took out the Giant Ape quickly but the Skulks were much more trouble than I-the-player anticipated and exactly as much trouble as I-the-adventure-designer could have hoped. The Warbearian charged in to melee the Giant Ape like a Fighter would instead of bombarding with Synaptic Static like a caster would, and a result he took over a hundred HP of damage from the Skulks (including three crits for 4d6+2d4+4 each). The wolves managed to pick off two Skulks due to their offsetting advantage from Pack Tactics, but if the Moon Druid hadn't used his bonus action to drop out of elemental shape and cast Erupting Earth, I don't know what would have happened, could maybe have been a TPK (although I think it wouldn't have been a TPK right then, since the fighters had Alert, but it could have led to TPK later on if the other PCs were dead or dying). The Warbearian had killed one Skulk via Armor of Agathys V when it opportunity attacked him on his way to the Giant Ape (and the Giant Ape actually killed itself by hitting the Warbearian, taking it from 150/157 damage to 175/157 damage), and wolves had killed two, so the the Moon Druid killed four out of the remaining 9 and left five others with only 7 HP each, and the fighters were able to dispatch them swiftly despite disadvantage.

    Short rest, re-cast Armor of Agathys, conjure 16 more wolves (down: two 5th, two 4th, three 3rd level slots), onward.

    7.) Neogis and Star Spawn Manglers. It's getting late and I'm tired so I'll just say: killed the Manglers on round 1 Trip Attack/Action Surge/etc. supernova (part of the strategy was to burn resources ASAP so that if Enslaved, the Enslaved fighters couldn't supernova the party), Barb spent a Rage and charged into combat, grappling a neogi to get its attention. One Neogi used Fear to try to disperse the party including all the wolves; Barb got frightened and Arcane Archer got paralyzed, but Battlemaster was able to kill the neogi concentrating on Fear and then Indomitable and lucky dice helped him resist two Enslave attempts, and Warbarian managed to break the Hold Person paralyzing the Arcane Archer, although not until after the Archer had lost its turn. Warbearian probably should have Counterspelled the Fear or Hold Person V, but I forgot. Another Hold Person managed to paralyze the Warberian, then the other neogi finished itself off by hitting the paralyzed Barbarian (Armor of Agathys), and... oops. Looks like I accidentally made it five Neogi Masters in that encounter instead of four. Anyway, then someone killed the Hold Person caster (the wolves had been rampaging around biting everybody fairly equally) and then both Manglers and all five neogis were dead.

    The fights were getting harder and harder so even though the party was still actually quite healthy, they short rested in order to regain action surge, superiority dice, etc. This required re-casting Armor of Agathys and losing the wolves, so after resting, the druid spent its 6th level slot to summon four Quicklings, and then they continued.

    8.) Mind Flayer Arcanist + Githyanki Supreme Commander. Arcane Archer shot at the Arcanist, got blocked by Shield spell, Action Surged to grapple (suceed), shove prone (failed), shove prone (success). Githyanki Supreme Commander triggered a tentacle attack with its legendary action, which hit, but the Arcane Archer rolled a 15 and made the save. Long story short: the Battlemaster finished it off at advantage and shot up the Supreme Commander pretty good, the Supreme Commander tried a Hail Mary play and cast Mass Suggestion on everybody ("Kneel Before Zod!" to demand worshipful genuflection), and it got 3/4 Quicklings and the Battlemaster, but not the Moon Druid, Arcane Archer, or the Warbearian, and this was enough to quickly kill him before he got another actual turn--although now that I look closer at the Supreme Commander's Teleport action, I suppose that could have been useful to him if I were going by the strict RAW on Extra Attack/Readied Action (whereby the Arcane Archer would only get one shot, not three, even though an Eldritch Blast caster would get three) but I don't think it would have changed the outcome, and that RAW is stupid anyway. 3:1 is just too big a numerical disadvantage to overcome.

    I assume that after the Supreme Commander was dead, the other PCs eventually found a way to make the Battlemaster stop kneeling, perhaps by chucking the Supreme Commander's body where the Battlemaster could no longer see it/sense its presence.

    TL;DR Fighter-ish party had incredible single-target DPR, finished small fights quickly, struggled against swarms. Rocket tag.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-22 at 10:39 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    playing him basically like any other Barbarian except without Rage [snip]

    Lyrandar (Mark of Storms) half-elf Barbarian 1/Celestial Warlock 11. Str 20 (18) Dex 16 (15) Con 17 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 20 (18). GWM.
    I'm sure I'm missing something, but can't tell what it is.

    If you're not going to Rage and are going to actually wear armor, why Barb 1 (especially vs your originally-planned Fighter 1)?

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by x3n0n View Post
    I'm sure I'm missing something, but can't tell what it is.

    If you're not going to Rage and are going to actually wear armor, why Barb 1 (especially vs your originally-planned Fighter 1)?
    Shield proficiency, better AC (medium armor / unarmored defense), two Rages per day in key fights (only used it once in actually but only because I was saving it for tough fights), Con save proficiency, greatsword proficiency, and eventual Reckless Attack and Bear Totem Resistance (planned for levels 13-14).

    Given his high stat rolls it was the same AC to wear armor vs. not so I went with the stylistic choice: this mighty Warbearian dresses like James Bond, not like a SWAT team.

    The original plan was more like Battlemaster 12. But that would have wasted all those juicy rolls. They got "wasted" anyway in the sense that they weren't used to meaningfully affect this particular contrived series of cage fights, but I can imagine him on other adventures that are less contrived, and / or him behaving in ways that are more castery (Synaptic Static, Hypnotic Pattern).
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-22 at 10:31 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Shield proficiency, better AC (medium armor / unarmored defense), two Rages per day in key fights (only used it once in actually but only because I was saving it for tough fights), Con save proficiency, greatsword proficiency, and eventual Reckless Attack and Bear Totem Resistance (planned for levels 13-14).
    Ok, that's what I was missing.

    Pros vs Fighter: 2 Rages, plans to progress to Barb levels 2 & 3, (Edit: and unarmored defense for style points, stealth, and no metal armor for Shocking Grasp/Heat Metal)
    Cons vs Fighter: no Fighting Style, no Second Wind, no opportunity to progress to Action Surge and subclass
    Last edited by x3n0n; 2021-04-22 at 10:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by x3n0n View Post
    Ok, that's what I was missing.

    Pros vs Fighter: 2 Rages, plans to progress to Barb levels 2 & 3, (Edit: and unarmored defense for style points, stealth, and no metal armor for Shocking Grasp/Heat Metal)
    Cons vs Fighter: no Fighting Style, no Second Wind, no opportunity to progress to Action Surge and subclass
    Yes, exactly.

    An additional pro of Fighter is getting access to heavy armor for AC 19 (or 21 with shield), which is a relative boost of +3. Also the multiclassing requirements are slightly less MAD (Dex 13 is enough, no Str needed) although heavy armor does want high Str if you care about mobility (which I do, outside of cage matches).

    There's nothing wrong with playing Fighter 1/Warlock X, but it's just not MAD enough to seem like a good use of a very rare stat array.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    (it only took a few HP of healing because the dragon had only barely knocked him out, something like 104 damage vs. 99 HP, so the Warbearian's gamble to use only 2 dice of celestial healing paid off)
    Is this a table rule you normally play with? It seems like you're tracking negative hp to get back up?
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  14. - Top - End - #44

    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Is this a table rule you normally play with? It seems like you're tracking negative hp to get back up?
    Yep, basically. There's two things here, an accounting change and a rule change.

    As a matter of accounting, when a monster takes 17 points of damage and then 48 HP of damage and then 7 HP, I just write down "17, 48, 7". Then if I want to know if the monster if dead, I compare that number to its HP, doing math if necessary. If it has 100 HP then it's obviously still alive; if it has 60 HP then it's obviously dead; if it has 71 HP then I need to do math. (17 + 48 = 65; 65 +7 = 72... it's dead, barely.) Addition is easier than repeated subtraction so this way is faster for most people.

    As a matter of rules, when you've taken more damage than your HP, instead of vanilla "you can't take any more damage, just track death saves", instead you die when damage = 2 x HP. Each round until you're stable, you make a death save. On a success you stabilize. On a failure you take damage equal to 20% of your HP (rounded up).

    This is equivalent to "tracking negative HP" but because of the accounting change it's the other way around: continuing to track damage above HP.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    As a matter of rules, when you've taken more damage than your HP, instead of vanilla "you can't take any more damage, just track death saves", instead you die when damage = 2 x HP. Each round until you're stable, you make a death save. On a success you stabilize. On a failure you take damage equal to 20% of your HP (rounded up).
    Just to make sure I follow right:

    Bob has 32 max HP.
    Bob takes 37 damage (maxHP <= current damage < 2*maxHP), and is knocked out.
    Bob succeeds at his first death save.

    5E RAW: Bob is at 0 current HP with 1 success and 0 failures; not stable until he gets to 3 successes, or rolls a nat-20 death save and recovers to 1 HP.

    MaxW rules: Bob is "at -5" (but really "at 5 damage above max HP"). As a result of "on a success you stabilize", he's stable. (Yes?) If so, taking any non-fatal damage just restarts the 6 HP (32/5, rounded down) "bleeding" per death save failure, until he succeeds a single death save?
    Does a nat-20 death save do anything "special"?
    If you're stable at damage >= maxHP for some amount of time (the same RAW 1d4 hours?), do you wake up with maxHP-1 damage?
    Last edited by x3n0n; 2021-04-22 at 04:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Yep, basically. There's two things here, an accounting change and a rule change.

    As a matter of accounting, when a monster takes 17 points of damage and then 48 HP of damage and then 7 HP, I just write down "17, 48, 7". Then if I want to know if the monster if dead, I compare that number to its HP, doing math if necessary. If it has 100 HP then it's obviously still alive; if it has 60 HP then it's obviously dead; if it has 71 HP then I need to do math. (17 + 48 = 65; 65 +7 = 72... it's dead, barely.) Addition is easier than repeated subtraction so this way is faster for most people.

    As a matter of rules, when you've taken more damage than your HP, instead of vanilla "you can't take any more damage, just track death saves", instead you die when damage = 2 x HP. Each round until you're stable, you make a death save. On a success you stabilize. On a failure you take damage equal to 20% of your HP (rounded up).

    This is equivalent to "tracking negative HP" but because of the accounting change it's the other way around: continuing to track damage above HP.
    Ahh okay thanks for explaining, I use Roll20 for games, so I just let the individual tokens manage the hp (I input the total, then I can just type '-20 ENTER' and it'll do the math for me, auto updating the character sheet if it's a PC).

    How do you find this has affected the overall difficulty of the game?
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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by x3n0n View Post
    Just to make sure I follow right:

    Bob has 32 max HP.
    Bob takes 37 damage (maxHP <= current damage < 2*maxHP), and is knocked out.
    Bob succeeds at his first death save.

    5E RAW: Bob is at 0 current HP with 1 success and 0 failures; not stable until he gets to 3 successes, or rolls a nat-20 death save and recovers to 1 HP.

    (A) MaxW rules: Bob is "at -5" (but really "at 5 damage above max HP"). As a result of "on a success you stabilize", he's stable. (Yes?) If so, taking any non-fatal damage just restarts the 6 HP (32/5, rounded down) "bleeding" per death save failure, until he succeeds a single death save?
    (B) Does a nat-20 death save do anything "special"?
    (C) If you're stable at damage >= maxHP for some amount of time (the same RAW 1d4 hours?), do you wake up with maxHP-1 damage?
    (A) Correct, correct, and correct. He dies at 64 damage.

    (B) Natural 1s and natural 20s don't do anything special, unlike RAW.

    (C) Yes and no.

    Yes, you wake up eventually. I will even let you retain consciousness at damage >= maxHP, if you want to mumble weakly or something (IIRC I usually ask for a DC 10 Con save to keep consciousness if you want to), even though you'll still count as Unconscious for purposes of auto-crits and stuff. But on second glance I see now that's not what you're asking about.

    No, you have to heal normally somehow to regain HP, which means either an external healing source or resting***. There's no accelerated healing which pulls HP out of nowhere just because you were knocked unconscious--you're better off healing while you're still healthy.

    *** I also disallow short rest healing unless you have a bard with Song of Rest, and on long rests you can either regain half your HD or spend some HD, but not both, both of which tie into the "wounded warrior" scenario (see below) as well as "wounded enemy" and "wounded mate of an frenemy" and things like that. I want wounds that last for days, not 1-4 hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Ahh okay thanks for explaining, I use Roll20 for games, so I just let the individual tokens manage the hp (I input the total, then I can just type '-20 ENTER' and it'll do the math for me, auto updating the character sheet if it's a PC).

    How do you find this has affected the overall difficulty of the game?
    It's hard to say, because it changes behavior: without pop-up healing to rely on, (most) PCs just try to keep their damage low in the first place, or mitigate it by healing before or between combats (sometimes during combat too, but long before nearing 100% damaged). I do occasionally read about people doing things like leveraging familiars to give people healing potions for popup healing, and those things don't work at my table, but to know how much those things actually affect the difficulty of the game I think you'd have to ask them, not me. Like, does embracing pop-up healing via familiars and potions that let you take on significantly tougher monsters, or is it just way of preventing individuals from winning the Darwin Award and making the player sad? I never see pop-up healing so I can't really say.

    For me it primarily affects (improves) the verisimilitude level and my suspension of disbelief, and my ability to design scenarios that include things like finding a near-dead warrior in a ditch with vital clues--that guy's not just at 0 HP and in need of a Healing Word (1d4 hours away from regaining 1 HP), he's at 80 HP over his damage maximum, and would be dead if he weren't such a tough old geezer. He needs, like, a dozen healing potions or several days of bed rest if you don't have magic.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-22 at 05:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    No, you have to heal normally somehow to regain HP, which means either an external healing source or resting***. There's no accelerated healing which pulls HP out of nowhere just because you were knocked unconscious--you're better off healing while you're still healthy.

    *** I also disallow short rest healing unless you have a bard with Song of Rest, and on long rests you can either regain half your HD or spend some HD, but not both, both of which tie into the "wounded warrior" scenario (see below) as well as "wounded enemy" and "wounded mate of an frenemy" and things like that. I want wounds that last for days, not 1-4 hours.
    Ok--so if you have any way to do healing that brings your damage back down below your max HP, do you get to act on that turn?
    Rephrased: given your WEGO initiative, if I get healed so that I have less than maxHP damage during this turn/round, do I get to act on this turn?

    Regarding the Bard: is your version of Song of Rest effectively "if you spend your short rest (or an hour of a long rest) singing, you and any friendly creatures in earshot heal 1dX damage at the end of that rest"?
    If you were to use Tasha's, would the Chef bonus be the same?
    Last edited by x3n0n; 2021-04-22 at 05:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by x3n0n View Post
    Ok--so if you have any way to do healing that brings your damage back down below your max HP, do you get to act on that turn?
    I treat it as an implicit Delay, assuming you haven't declared an action this round (i.e. were wounded on a previous round and are now back up). That is, you can still declare an action this round at any time, but you automatically lose any initiative contests to everyone else who has already declared their action and started acting. It's "implicit" because you didn't say "I'm Delaying", but in other ways it's the same as any other Delay.

    Regarding the Bard: is your version of Song of Rest effectively "if you spend your short rest (or an hour of a long rest) singing, you and any friendly creatures in earshot heal 1dX damage at the end of that rest"?
    If you were to use Tasha's, would the Chef bonus be the same?
    No, it's "Song of Rest: you may spend HD during a short rest if a bard is singing/whatever, and if you do you gain an extra 1dX HP", the same as PHB rules.

    I don't have a strong opinion on how to adapt the Chef feat to this model--it's one of the things about Tasha's that actively bothers me (mostly just because the idea of gaining temp HP from eating "treats" just seems stupid) so my personal answer is "don't adapt it, just leave it out of the game." I do let Healer work normally though--my whole agenda is about preserving the narrative weight of wounding in the default case, but I don't mind a specialized healer getting to be freakishly good at healing wounds. That just makes everyone go "wow!", whereas making deadly wounds automatically heal themselves over the course of 1-4 hours just makes it seem like an alien planet where no one can even relate to the concept of long-term wounds.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-22 at 05:54 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    AOE damage yeah

    single target = hit them save or sucks

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by eunwoler View Post
    AOE damage yeah

    single target = hit them save or sucks
    I think this is a stereotype as surely as "Clerics should only ever be healbots," and one as thoroughly disproven.

    There have always been single target damage spells that are well worth it, like Crown of Stars or Spiritual Weapon.

    And also like "Clerics should only be healbots," it's not merely a case of the fact that Clerics can be something else, but that they often should be something else. If you only focus on save or sucks, for example, you are going to be way more vulnerable to Legendary Resistance, Magic Resistance, high saves, etc, than any Wizard worth their spellbook should be.

    There are examples in the above thread discussion of how casters can just sort of ignore things like Legendary Resistance and Magic Resistance and steamroll Deadly encounters for few resources, using damage spells.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-04-22 at 07:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    There have always been single target damage spells that are well worth it, like Crown of Stars or Spiritual Weapon.
    I would very much not consider those "single-target damage spells" for a wide range of reasons, most importantly that they're action-economy boosting spells and that they're damage spells that actually hit multiple targets (even if over a longer period of time). They're essentially buffs more than damage spells.

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomSoul View Post
    I would very much not consider those "single-target damage spells" for a wide range of reasons, most importantly that they're action-economy boosting spells and that they're damage spells that actually hit multiple targets (even if over a longer period of time). They're essentially buffs more than damage spells.
    Would you also object that Fighters do not deal single target DPR because they can choose to attack different targets on different rounds?

    You can re-label it whatever you want -- the fact of the matter is that these spells are effective at eliminating big individual targets via damage. They fill the role.

    Likewise, things like Magic Missile and Scorching Ray and Blade of Disaster and Bigby's Hand and so forth are capable of hitting multiple creatures within the duration of a single spell, but clearly excel at the single target damage role.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-04-22 at 08:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Would you also object that Fighters do not deal single target DPR because they can choose to attack different targets on different rounds?

    You can re-label it whatever you want -- the fact of the matter is that these spells are effective at eliminating big individual targets via damage. They fill the role.

    Likewise, things like Magic Missile and Scorching Ray and Blade of Disaster and Bigby's Hand and so forth are capable of hitting multiple creatures within the duration of a single spell, but clearly excel at the single target damage role.
    I wouldn't call the Fighters a Spell, which is an important difference! (I recognise you're not saying they are -- but there's a difference in comparison.)

    The Spells are more like the Berserker Barbarian's Frenzy giving them a[n extra] Bonus Action option to Attack or like Haste [at least in my experience, it's usually being cast for the extra Action, not for the +2 AC or other bonuses], to me. And it not being restricted to a single target for the whole casting is a meaningful difference to me, but here it's more like adding that Fighter (boosting Action Economy) than like giving an existing Ally bonus Damage.

    (I also think Magic Missile giving you a choice of targets is an important benefit, and it has come up regularly at my tables. If anything, it's probably been used as a guaranteed way to finish off one or several targets while hitting multiple targets much more often that not!)
    Last edited by PhantomSoul; 2021-04-22 at 08:55 PM. Reason: Missing a comma. It annoyed me.

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomSoul View Post
    I wouldn't call the Fighters a Spell, which is an important difference! (I recognise you're not saying they are -- but there's a difference in comparison.)
    Can we not do this?

    These spells are useful for damaging single targets. It doesn't matter what you call them.

    The fact that Magic Missile can split does not somehow make it worse at dealing single target damage.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-04-22 at 09:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Can we not do this?

    These spells are useful for damaging single targets. It doesn't matter what you call them.
    It is nonetheless interesting (revealing?) that both of the counterexamples that first came to mind in defense of single-target damage spells fit into the separate (sub)type rather than being "canonical" single-target damage spells.

    (I almost added that they're Bonus Action spells, but Crown of Madness costs an Action when you Cast it [not when you deal the damage], although it does also have a long enough Duration that it may be cast before the combat occurs.)

    ----

    Edit to update after edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    The fact that Magic Missile can split does not somehow make it worse at dealing single target damage.
    It does give them noteworthy versatility, though. It may be possible to only target a single creature (without the damage reduction that accompanies unambiguous AoEs, I assume -- which here is an important assumption), but it's not only possible to do that, and that means the spell selection buys you more options for how you use it. (And that these are the next spells to come to mind...)

    ----

    Edit to add my opinion, rather than just responding: I think high-level damage spells can have their place, but barring really rare circumstances I pretty much wouldn't ever use them. Those slots typically just have more interesting and potent uses to me. At higher levels those "spare" low-level slots might get used for single-target pure-damage spells... but even then, I'd normally only prepare/know ones that have something beyond single-target damage to offer (like being optionally multi-target or opening up action economy options [even better without concentration], not-so-coincidentally!).
    Last edited by PhantomSoul; 2021-04-22 at 09:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomSoul View Post
    rather than being "canonical" single-target damage spells.
    There is nothing "canonical" about you personally defining "single target damage" to exclude options like Crown of Stars, Heat Metal, Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Chaos Bolt, Spiritual Weapon, etc etc.

    That's not the way I'm using the term, nor the way that it's been used in context of much of the larger thread discussion.

    Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether you call it a single target damage spell or not. It matters that it does the job.

    Also, there are still good spells that don't have the option to target new creatures on future rounds, or split, or anything. Like, say, Dissonant Whispers, Mental Prison, and Mind Spike (but for all I know you may not be counting these either, since they all have an extra effect besides pure damage).

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomSoul View Post
    Edit to add my opinion, rather than just responding: I think high-level damage spells can have their place, but barring really rare circumstances I pretty much wouldn't ever use them. Those slots typically just have more interesting and potent uses to me. At higher levels those "spare" low-level slots might get used for single-target pure-damage spells... but even then, I'd normally only prepare/know ones that have something beyond single-target damage to offer (like being optionally multi-target or opening up action economy options [even better without concentration], not-so-coincidentally!).
    PhantomSoul, all high level mandatory single target damage spells have some additional effect beyond pure damage. Even the lousy ones.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-04-24 at 01:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomSoul View Post
    It is nonetheless interesting (revealing?) that both of the counterexamples that first came to mind in defense of single-target damage spells fit into the separate (sub)type rather than being "canonical" single-target damage spells.

    (I almost added that they're Bonus Action spells, but Crown of Madness costs an Action when you Cast it [not when you deal the damage], although it does also have a long enough Duration that it may be cast before the combat occurs.)

    ----

    Edit to update after edit:


    It does give them noteworthy versatility, though. It may be possible to only target a single creature (without the damage reduction that accompanies unambiguous AoEs, I assume -- which here is an important assumption), but it's not only possible to do that, and that means the spell selection buys you more options for how you use it. (And that these are the next spells to come to mind...)

    ----

    Edit to add my opinion, rather than just responding: I think high-level damage spells can have their place, but barring really rare circumstances I pretty much wouldn't ever use them. Those slots typically just have more interesting and potent uses to me. At higher levels those "spare" low-level slots might get used for single-target pure-damage spells... but even then, I'd normally only prepare/know ones that have something beyond single-target damage to offer (like being optionally multi-target or opening up action economy options [even better without concentration], not-so-coincidentally!).
    I know it has already been pointed out but with this definition any martial but *some* rogues is incapable of single target damage. Unless you purposefully ignore Extra Attack and any other effect that has either multi-targeting or riders on damage.

    That said, the fact that a spell excels at dealing damage to a single target means that it's indeed good for single-target damage, even if it has wider applications after that.

    Otherwise it's like saying that a spell sucks at something because it's too strong.

    What damage reduction do AoEs have? You mean that since they're AoEs they're built-in damage is lower compared to spells only targeting one enemy?

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    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Unusually for me, I used PHB initiative rules (IGO-UGO) instead of my normal WEGO rules, in order to keep the results more relatable to other people. For the same reason I also used spell slots instead of spell points, and Legendary Resistance instead of TSR-style magic resistance.
    Can you post the entirety of your house rules in this thread or another thread? They sound fascinating.

  30. - Top - End - #60

    Default Re: Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    PhantomSoul, all high level mandatory single target damage spells have some additional effect beyond pure damage. Even the lousy ones.
    I think PhantomSoul would count PWK as a "damage" spell (but worse) that has nothing additional to offer beyond single target pseudodamage.

    Quote Originally Posted by dmhelp View Post
    Can you post the entirety of your house rules in this thread or another thread? They sound fascinating.
    Sure. Thanks for showing interest. New thread is TSR-ish 5E: Max Wilson's house rules doc.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-23 at 08:22 PM.

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