Is spell dmg worth at high levels?

[LudicSavant]

I think PhantomSoul would count PWK as a "damage" spell (but worse) that has nothing additional to offer beyond single target pseudodamage.

PWK's additional effect is that it bypasses death gates and a whole bunch of high level shenanigans (for example, it can poof a Moon Druid 20 without breaking their Wildshape).

It doesn't even deal damage, it just applies the status effect "dead" if a character does not have 101+ hit points (even if it would take far, far more than 101 damage to reduce them to zero, let alone kill them).

PWK even bypasses temporary hit points and Arcane Ward.

[MaxWilson]

PWK's additional effect is that it bypasses death gates and a whole bunch of high level shenanigans (for example, it can poof a Moon Druid 20 without breaking their Wildshape).

That's not an meaningfully different effect--hit a Moon Druid with PWK or 400 points of damage and you get the same effect in either case: a dead body.

And again, my point was that PhantomSoul didn't just say "has an additional effect", he or she said "something beyond single-target damage to offer (like being optionally multi-target or opening up action economy options [even better without concentration], not-so-coincidentally!)." It seems clear that PWK isn't that.

[LudicSavant]

That's not an meaningfully different effect--hit a Moon Druid with PWK or 400 points of damage and you get the same effect in either case: a dead body.

There are obviously situations where it doesn't produce the same effect. For example, if someone with 99 hit points has the Invulnerability spell cast on them, you can hit them with 400,000 points of damage and nothing will happen... but PWK can still kill them.

[JNAProductions]

There are obviously situations where it doesn't produce the same effect. For example, if someone with 99 hit points has the Invulnerability spell cast on them, you can hit them with 400,000 points of damage and nothing will happen... but PWK can still kill them.

Which is not what's being argued. It's different in niche cases-but the general case is it does the same thing less than 100 points of damage does.

[MaxWilson]

There are obviously situations where it doesn't produce the same effect.

True but irrelevant. Notice how nothing I've written says "it has no additional effect." I'm pointing out that "has an additional effect" is your concept, not PhantomSoul's.

[LudicSavant]

I know it has already been pointed out but with this definition any martial but *some* rogues is incapable of single target damage. Unless you purposefully ignore Extra Attack and any other effect that has either multi-targeting or riders on damage.

That said, the fact that a spell excels at dealing damage to a single target means that it's indeed good for single-target damage, even if it has wider applications after that.

Otherwise it's like saying that a spell sucks at something because it's too strong.

Exactly.

Magic Missile, Crown of Stars, and Power Word Kill are all spells that fill the single target damage role.

Saying "Magic Missile can target multiple creatures if you want, so it's not a single target damage spell!" is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the spells are good at dealing single target damage.

Which is not what's being argued. It's different in niche cases-but the general case is it does the same thing less than 100 points of damage does.

We're already on the same page there. I would consider PWK as contributing to the single target damage niche, just as I do for Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Crown of Stars, Spiritual Weapon, and Extra Attack.

True but irrelevant. Notice how nothing I've written says "it has no additional effect." I'm pointing out that "has an additional effect" is your concept, not PhantomSoul's.

PhantomSoul's exact quote is "have something beyond single-target damage."

The ability to bypass Invulnerability and other such gates is something beyond single-target damage.

[MaxWilson]

PhantomSoul's exact quote is "have something beyond single-target damage."

The ability to bypass Invulnerability and other such gates is something beyond single-target damage.

The exact quote is "something beyond single-target damage to offer (like being optionally multi-target or opening up action economy options [even better without concentration], not-so-coincidentally!)."

The ability to potentially bypass Invulnerability in an extremely niche scenario (while also doing absolutely zero in the much, much more likely case of a target that turns out to have 101+ HP) is probably not something PhantomSoul will consider "like being multi-target or opening up action economy options."

[LudicSavant]

The exact quote is "something beyond single-target damage to offer (like being optionally multi-target or opening up action economy options [even better without concentration], not-so-coincidentally!)."

Indeed it is. And it remains the case that, like being optionally multi-target or opening up action economy options, doing no damage and directly applying a status effect directly is doing something beyond single-target damage.

Whether you think PhantomSoul thinks that or not, or whether you think it is a big something or a little something or a general something or a niche something, does not actually change the truth value of that statement.

[MaxWilson]

Indeed it is. And it remains the case that, like being optionally multi-target or opening up action economy options, doing no damage and directly applying a status effect directly is doing something beyond single-target damage.

Whether you think PhantomSoul thinks that or not, or whether you think it is a big something or a little something or a general something or a niche something, does not actually change the truth value of that statement.

You're very attached to your own perspective. I had thought before that you were trying to be helpful to PhantomSoul, but you're so insistent here on answering your own question on your own terms instead of PhantomSoul's terms that I just don't know what you're doing. In any case it's clear that my input isn't helping, so I'll just shut up and let you do your thing.

[Chaos Jackal]

Well, even if we accept that PWK has no additional effect other than (pseudo-) single target damage, that still leaves the list of high-level spells satisfying the "no additional effect" criteria frightfully small. I don't have the comfort to go through the spell list right now, but I doubt I'd get more than 2-3 additional cases in that manner. What else is there, disintegrate? Or does breaking force obstacles count as an additional effect? Because personally, I'd never prepare it or PWK for the sake of dealing damage. I'd prepare something of the kind as backup for force effects or if I expect/know I'll fight a demilich or archdruid or something and want to trivialize any issues.
But this also discounts something like mental prison, which deals more damage than disintegrate even without accounting for the included conditions. Should mental prison be excluded as a single-target blast because it also restrains on top of outdamaging disintegrate? Should meteor swarm be excluded because its damage can potentially hit the boss' friends if he has any?
It hardly seems indicative when analyzing the question at hand. Sure, if you only count PWK, disintegrate and upcast blight as single target high-level spell damage,then said damage sucks, but it also misrepresents the situation.

[LudicSavant]

Well, even if we accept that PWK has no additional effect other than (pseudo-) single target damage, that still leaves the list of high-level spells satisfying the "no additional effect" criteria frightfully small. I don't have the comfort to go through the spell list right now, but I doubt I'd get more than 2-3 additional cases in that manner. What else is there, disintegrate? Or does breaking force obstacles count as an additional effect? Because personally, I'd never prepare it or PWK for the sake of dealing damage. I'd prepare something of the kind as backup for force effects or if I expect/know I'll fight a demilich or archdruid or something and want to trivialize any issues.
But this also discounts something like mental prison, which deals more damage than disintegrate even without accounting for the included conditions. Should mental prison be excluded as a single-target blast because it also restrains on top of outdamaging disintegrate? Should meteor swarm be excluded because its damage can potentially hit the boss' friends if he has any?
It hardly seems indicative when analyzing the question at hand. Sure, if you only count PWK, disintegrate and upcast blight as single target high-level spell damage,then said damage sucks, but it also misrepresents the situation.

Exactly thus. Well put Chaos Jackal.

What else is there, disintegrate? Or does breaking force obstacles count as an additional effect? Because personally, I'd never prepare it or PWK for the sake of dealing damage. I'd prepare something of the kind as backup for force effects or if I expect/know I'll fight a demilich or archdruid or something and want to trivialize any issues.

Same! I put it thus in another thread:

Damage is basically the last thing I'm thinking of when I prepare Disintegrate.

The first thing I'm thinking of is removing a Wall of Force.

The second thing I'm thinking of is bypassing certain "death cheating" effects.

[Valmark]

The exact quote is "something beyond single-target damage to offer (like being optionally multi-target or opening up action economy options [even better without concentration], not-so-coincidentally!)."

The ability to potentially bypass Invulnerability in an extremely niche scenario (while also doing absolutely zero in the much, much more likely case of a target that turns out to have 101+ HP) is probably not something PhantomSoul will consider "like being multi-target or opening up action economy options."

To be fair, Phantom framed those as examples it seems to me instead of the criteria.

There's difference between saying "Something beyond single target damage (like X or Y)" and saying "Does X or Y beyond single target damage". Not sure if I'm clear on what I mean.

[LudicSavant]

To be fair, Phantom framed those as examples it seems to me instead of the criteria.

There's difference between saying "Something beyond single target damage (like X or Y)" and saying "Does X or Y beyond single target damage". Not sure if I'm clear on what I mean.

That was my reading as well.

[GeneralVryth]

Just to add another perspective reading over this thread, it seems like Phantom's point was there aren't many high spells that are one shot (like a fireball) single target damage spells, that people use primarily for the damage. Disintegrate is the only spell I can even think of off the top of my head that fits that criteria (PW:K is ticky tack, but I can see the argument) and several people have pointed out they have it for other contingencies than dealing damage, which is the point.

To be honest, I am having a hard time of thinking of one shot single target damage spells in general. Chromatic Orb... and cantrips?

[Goes to look at spell sheets]

Power Word: Kill - see above - 9th
Finger of Death - used to make zombies - 7th level
Disintegrate - see above - 6th level
Enervation - Not one shot, but locked to a single target - 5th level
Blight - 4th level
Phantasmal Killer - also frightens - 4th level
Melf's Acid Arrow - 2nd level
Mind Spike - also has tracking - 2nd level
Scorching Ray - rays can be split - 2nd level
Catapult - throws object - 1st level
Chromatic Orb - 1st level
Ice Knife - secondary aoe - 1st level
Magic Missile - missiles can be split - 1st level
Ray of Sickness - also poisons creature - 1st level

I think that is all of the Wizard's spells that could remotely be considered one shot single target effects pre-Tasha's. That is a surprisingly short list, there is more first level spells than 5th through 9th combined, and most of the 5th through 9th level spells aren't primarily used/considered for their damage (Disintegrate is probably the main debatable one).

If the point was there isn't many good choices for high single target damage, it's a reasonable argument.

[Valmark]

Just to add another perspective reading over this thread, it seems like Phantom's point was there aren't many high spells that are one shot (like a fireball) single target damage spells, that people use primarily for the damage. Disintegrate is the only spell I can even think of off the top of my head that fits that criteria (PW:K is ticky tack, but I can see the argument) and several people have pointed out they have it for other contingencies than dealing damage, which is the point.

To be honest, I am having a hard time of thinking of one shot single target damage spells in general. Chromatic Orb... and cantrips?

[Goes to look at spell sheets]

Power Word: Kill - see above - 9th
Finger of Death - used to make zombies - 7th level
Disintegrate - see above - 6th level
Enervation - Not one shot, but locked to a single target - 5th level
Blight - 4th level
Phantasmal Killer - also frightens - 4th level
Melf's Acid Arrow - 2nd level
Mind Spike - also has tracking - 2nd level
Scorching Ray - rays can be split - 2nd level
Catapult - throws object - 1st level
Chromatic Orb - 1st level
Ice Knife - secondary aoe - 1st level
Magic Missile - missiles can be split - 1st level
Ray of Sickness - also poisons creature - 1st level

I think that is all of the Wizard's spells that could remotely be considered one shot single target effects pre-Tasha's. That is a surprisingly short list, there is more first level spells than 5th through 9th combined, and most of the 5th through 9th level spells aren't primarily used/considered for their damage (Disintegrate is probably the main debatable one).

If the point was there isn't many good choices for high single target damage, it's a reasonable argument.

I think the point (at least the one Phantom originally replied to) is that it doesn't have to be single targeting spells as long as they can produce good single target damage.

As an extreme example take Meteor Swarm. Would you say that it's not good at inflcting damage to one person (40d6) because it's an AoE?

Or a Summon that deals good damage- it doesn't count as single target damage because it's a summon spell?

In addition Phantom explicitely called out spells dealing damage over multiple turns in one of their first replies so it's not even a matter of Istantaneous casting.

[GeneralVryth]

I think the point (at least the one Phantom originally replied to) is that it doesn't have to be single targeting spells as long as they can produce good single target damage.

As an extreme example take Meteor Swarm. Would you say that it's not good at inflcting damage to one person (40d6) because it's an AoE?

Or a Summon that deals good damage- it doesn't count as single target damage because it's a summon spell?

In addition Phantom explicitely called out spells dealing damage over multiple turns in one of their first replies so it's not even a matter of Istantaneous casting.

Oh I agree, it's not unreasonable to use AOE spells for what is single target damage. I do think the relative lack of good single target damage spells of 3rd level or above is interesting. It kind of slots in with what I was saying in a different thread about spell balance. Then again any single target one shot spell that is good solely for its damage would likely end up over powered or at least tread directly on the martial niche, because it would need to do in the 100+ damage range to start to feel worth it.

[Valmark]

Oh I agree, it's not unreasonable to use AOE spells for what is single target damage. I do think the relative lack of good single target damage spells of 3rd level or above is interesting. It kind of slots in with what I was saying in a different thread about spell balance. Then again any single target one shot spell that is good solely for its damage would likely end up over powered or at least tread directly on the martial niche, because it would need to do in the 100+ damage range to start to feel worth it.

Agreed- which is indeed doable (a wizard built accordingly can easily match that damage and more, probably at least Grave clerics too, I'm no expert) but if a spell had that much damage by itself -and nothing else- I'm still not sure I'd take it.

Take Harm- on most characters that spell is bad and it's almost just damage (14d6 targeting Con isn't actually a lot at that level, turns out). Even as a cleric that can force vulnerability on the enemy I might not use it (although hearing the sound of 28 dice rolling is so satisfying).

Although unsure if it'd overshadow martials- spending a daily high level slot to deal damage should indeed surpass a martial's damage (substantially) which usually doesn't have as much heavy investment in terms of reusable resources. Usually.
And even then they (martials) tipically have better sustained dpr (with a few notable exceptions like accordingly built warlocks, Ludic's build on the first page is an example).

[GeneralVryth]

Agreed- which is indeed doable (a wizard built accordingly can easily match that damage and more, probably at least Grave clerics too, I'm no expert) but if a spell had that much damage by itself -and nothing else- I'm still not sure I'd take it.

Take Harm- on most characters that spell is bad and it's almost just damage (14d6 targeting Con isn't actually a lot at that level, turns out). Even as a cleric that can force vulnerability on the enemy I might not use it (although hearing the sound of 28 dice rolling is so satisfying).

Although unsure if it'd overshadow martials- spending a daily high level slot to deal damage should indeed surpass a martial's damage (substantially) which usually doesn't have as much heavy investment in terms of reusable resources. Usually.
And even then they (martials) tipically have better sustained dpr (with a few notable exceptions like accordingly built warlocks, Ludic's build on the first page is an example).

Most builds that can do it are pretty gimmicky. I am not a fan of the nuclear wizard, it's clearly an abuse of the rules, that's why it is so anomalous amongst casters. As for raw damage assuming we are talking something like fire I mean 100+ (which is roughly 30d6) would be a starting point for a level 6 spell. 9th level spells would probably need to be double that to be viable. Meteor Swarm is an army killer, even though is does the most raw damage in a spell by far, it's still roughly only half the HP of an adult dragon, much less an ancient one.

When casters can cook the swarms with a single spell, and have as many save or suck effects as they do, the primary role of martials becomes burning down the big guys. So I am actually fine with casters not being able to enter that niche as well. The ways they can try and get in tend to involve sustained damage from buffs, which feels right.

[Valmark]

Most builds that can do it are pretty gimmicky. I am not a fan of the nuclear wizard, it's clearly an abuse of the rules, that's why it is so anomalous amongst casters. As for raw damage assuming we are talking something like fire I mean 100+ (which is roughly 30d6) would be a starting point for a level 6 spell. 9th level spells would probably need to be double that to be viable. Meteor Swarm is an army killer, even though is does the most raw damage in a spell by far, it's still roughly only half the HP of an adult dragon, much less an ancient one.

When casters can cook the swarms with a single spell, and have as many save or suck effects as they do, the primary role of martials becomes burning down the big guys. So I am actually fine with casters not being able to enter that niche as well. The ways they can try and get in tend to involve sustained damage from buffs, which feels right.

If it interests you even ignoring wether the MM combo works or not this showcases just how good said nuclear wizard can be (and even then the MM combo is tecnically valid, at worst if you aim one dart at a second enemy it becomes valid under almost any reading).

Casters in general can indeed dish out heavy pain, even if they probably need different investments (I imagine a subclass geared towards offense will have an easier time then one that does not).

Even just the new summon spells (at least some of them) can alone match the typical damage of most martials! Possibly surpass it.

So to put it short they can already enter the niche- just not by straight up brainlessly throwing a big damage spell (at least not all of them).

Again, this coming from me- I'm no optimizer, somebody actually competent would probably know better. I can only look at the work others did.

[LudicSavant]

So to put it short they can already enter the niche- just not by straight up brainlessly throwing a big damage spell (at least not all of them).

Indeed. More elaboration on this further in this post.

So I am actually fine with casters not being able to enter that niche as well.

You can enter said niche with every full caster class, and you can do it while being super versatile too.

Note that the "build on the first page" Valmark was talking about isn't the Nuclear Wizard. It was a Warlock that was good at just about everything (single target damage, AoE damage, battlefield control, buffing, debuffing, healing, tanking, scouting, and more). It wasn't even a damage-focused subclass or anything, and yet it still easily fills the niche, able to focus down bosses before they even get a turn.

Also, before you declare something "clearly an abuse of the rules" you should be aware that the devs have gone on record saying that's precisely how it's supposed to work.

You appear to want it to be the case that martials have a role they are exclusively good at. But 5e doesn't really work like that -- there isn't role protection in this edition. If you want to fill the "focus down the boss" niche as a full caster, WotC has been happy to provide us with myriad tools to do exactly that as any caster class.

It's just, like Valmark said, not as brainless as "cast a single spell and nothing else." Why? Because high single target damage potential throughout 5e is generally designed to be combo-oriented.

Just as a Fighter's big focus damage comes from combinations of Fighting Styles, subclass features, action economy boosters like Action Surge, and feats like GWM or Sharpshooter, so too does a caster's focus damage come from combinations (like using Scorching Ray as a delivery mechanism for on-hit effects, or invocations to make Eldritch Blast dangerous, or any of a hundred other examples).

If one only looks at the base damage of an individual spell in a vacuum, they're going to have a very inaccurate picture of the kind of damage casters can dish out, as surely as if your idea of Fighter damage potential was just looking at the damage die on a weapon table (instead of, say, GWM + PAM + Fighting Style + Action Surge + Battle Master Maneuvers + etc).

Likewise, if a person thinks of a character class as determining their role (like "Wizards are always squishy controllers" or "Clerics are always healbots" or "Fighters are always melee tanks"), then they're going to also get a very inaccurate picture of what can be done with the game. D&D 5e is not designed like a "Holy Trinity" RPG, and as such you cannot assume a character's role just from knowing their class. Two characters made with the same class (and even subclass) can fill entirely different party roles from each other, and both can be not only viable, but optimized enough to defeat several Deadly encounters per day (beyond overkill for any published module).

[Unoriginal]

40d6 is 240 damage max, on a DEX save, and with half of it being fire. And that uses up your one 9th level spell slot.

I've never seen a single person argue that Meteor Swarm would be good if used as a single-target-spell.

[MaxWilson]

To be fair, Phantom framed those as examples it seems to me instead of the criteria.

There's difference between saying "Something beyond single target damage (like X or Y)" and saying "Does X or Y beyond single target damage". Not sure if I'm clear on what I mean.

Yes, that's why I only said I think PhantomSoul wouldn't count PWK (it seems very different from the X and Y given) instead of saying I know. Bypassing Invulnerability in a very, very niche situation (why not just Dispel it instead?) is not much at all like the kind of extra tactical richness they implied they're interested in, whereas Mental Prison is. Disintegrate, hard to say, depends.

[Unoriginal]

Reminds me of how the 4e Disintegrate didn't disintegrate.

[GeneralVryth]

Also, before you declare something "clearly an abuse of the rules" you should be aware that the devs have gone on record saying that's precisely how it's supposed to work.

You appear to want it to be the case that martials have a role they are exclusively good at. But 5e doesn't really work like that -- there isn't role protection in this edition. If you want to fill the "focus down the boss" niche as a full caster, WotC has been happy to provide us with myriad tools to do exactly that as any caster class.

Frankly I don't care what the designer has to say. When you have an effect like MM interactions with Empowered Evocation and Hexblade's Curse where your system is producing significantly more powerful results in one specific situation than it does in most other cases, that is indicative of broken or unbalanced system. And that doesn't get into the Simulacrum cheese later on.

Also, based on both your and @Valmark's response, I wasn't clear in my previous post. I have no problem with casters doing good single target by using sustained spells and abilities (that is the right way to do it). I was musing it was probably good thing they aren't good at single target damage with spells that are one shot effects (as it would likely have a negative effect on the feel of encounters). As far as role protection goes I actually think flexibility in roles is a good. I like 5e as a system for many reasons, that is one of them (the Nuclear Wizard on the other hand, along with Simulacrum, seems like a perversion of the system, which should be "nuked".)

For the record, the warlock from the first page is actually the kind of characters I like playing, characters who may not be the pure best at one thing, but flex to do lots of things pretty well and can adapt themselves to what the party needs. I also tend to like my widgets and useful decisions so I prefer casters (whether full or half) as well.

[LudicSavant]

40d6 is 240 damage max, on a DEX save, and with half of it being fire. And that uses up your one 9th level spell slot.

I've never seen a single person argue that Meteor Swarm would be good if used as a single-target-spell.

Valmark's not crazy here.

A level 17 Champion using Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Action Surge against AC 19 (let alone more for bosses) is less damage than a Meteor Swarm even when they succeed on the save. It's a decent chunk of burst.

And that's of course your damage floor for the round, not even close to the ceiling -- you've still got your bonus action, you Concentration, your familiar and any other minions, possibly a Simulacrum, class features, and/or feats. And of course they could actually fail the save. You don't just have a spell in a vacuum any more than a Fighter has a hand crossbow in a vacuum.

Is that the main reason you prepared Meteor Swarm? Nah, definitely not, and I'm sure Valmark knows that. Is it sometimes worth using to make sure the enemy disappears this turn, if you don't have an even higher burst option prepared? Yeah.

[Valmark]

Frankly I don't care what the designer has to say. When you have an effect like MM interactions with Empowered Evocation and Hexblade's Curse where your system is producing significantly more powerful results in one specific situation than it does in most other cases, that is indicative of broken or unbalanced system. And that doesn't get into the Simulacrum cheese later on.

Also, based on both your and @Valmark's response, I wasn't clear in my previous post. I have no problem with casters doing good single target by using sustained spells and abilities (that is the right way to do it). I was musing it was probably good thing they aren't good at single target damage with spells that are one shot effects (as it would likely have a negative effect on the feel of encounters). As far as role protection goes I actually think flexibility in roles is a good. I like 5e as a system for many reasons, that is one of them (the Nuclear Wizard on the other hand, along with Simulacrum, seems like a perversion of the system, which should be "nuked".)

For the record, the warlock from the first page is actually the kind of characters I like playing, characters who may not be the pure best at one thing, but flex to do lots of things pretty well and can adapt themselves to what the party needs. I also tend to like my widgets and useful decisions so I prefer casters (whether full or half) as well.

To be fair if you don't like the MM etc. (Which isn't even the only way) it doesn't mean they aren't good at it.

Unless you mean they aren't good without investment (as in, without actually thinking how to make high damage in one round) in which case I would tend to agree. There are still some cases like (first example that comes to mind) a Sheperd druid and a DM that gives not-useless beasts. Playing it the straight-forward way can still deal heavy damage in a single round to one target (which is usually when it deals the highest damage before the enemies find countermeasures) with little optimization needed beyond 'I use the spell the subclass is basically built around'.

Note: With "useless" I mean stuff like giving weak, lower CR creatures or even ones not adapt to the area (squids on ground moving at 5 feet), it's tipically fine otherwise. Notable exception with animals relying on poison against poison-immune foes (most of their damage comes from the rider, so they are functionally weak without it. Usually)

Ironically if I'm not wrong that warlock is optimized for something (and is great at it). Healing.
If you check one of the example battles the synopsis is basically "whatever the enemies can't outheal the party" if I recall well xD

Valmark's not crazy here.

A level 17 Champion using Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Action Surge against AC 19 (let alone more for bosses) is less damage than a Meteor Swarm even when they succeed on the save. It's a decent chunk of burst.

And that's of course your damage floor for the round, not even close to the ceiling -- you've still got your bonus action, you Concentration, your familiar and any other minions, possibly a Simulacrum, class features, and/or feats. And of course they could actually fail the save. You don't just have a spell in a vacuum any more than a Fighter has a hand crossbow in a vacuum.

Is that the main reason you prepared Meteor Swarm? Nah, definitely not, and I'm sure Valmark knows that. Is it sometimes worth using to make sure the enemy disappears this turn, if you don't have an even higher burst option prepared? Yeah.

Basically this. I wasn't saying that's what I'm going to use as a first option or prepare it for single targets, but if what I need is to blast X enemy down that's a pretty usable option that doesn't require much in the way of thought.

The last thing I feel is especially important: even a new player (let's pretend a new player that has gotten to 20 without developing much tactical insight beyond 'don't blast your friends'*) can take a look at it and go 'Dang, that's sweet' and use it accordingly and feel satisfied.



*It looks like it's a joke but a friend of mine who has been playing dnd for years still mistakes 'radius' with 'diameter'. He has been forbidden from using Fireballs.

[Frogreaver]

Most builds that can do it are pretty gimmicky. I am not a fan of the nuclear wizard, it's clearly an abuse of the rules, that's why it is so anomalous amongst casters.

Agreed.

I think we can broadly categorize caster damage.

1. Nuclear Wizard Cheese
2. Non-Concentration single target damage - think fireball/magic missile
3. Concentration based single target damage - think spirit guardians/crown of stars
4. Trapping a creature in concentration based damage spell - requires multiple spells (often multiple casters to pull off)
5. Non-concentration duration spells - think spiritual weapon (not sure if there is another)

When I think of single target caster damage I think of options 2, 3 or 5.

Though even without option 1, which I fully agree with you on there is still option 4 and while more resource intensive it really shines - but isn't very achievable till level 9ish.

[Valmark]

Agreed.

I think we can broadly categorize caster damage.

1. Nuclear Wizard Cheese
2. Non-Concentration single target damage - think fireball/magic missile
3. Concentration based single target damage - think spirit guardians/crown of stars
4. Trapping a creature in concentration based damage spell - requires multiple spells (often multiple casters to pull off)
5. Non-concentration duration spells - think spiritual weapon (not sure if there is another)

When I think of single target caster damage I think of options 2, 3 or 5.

Though even without option 1, which I fully agree with you on there is still option 4 and while more resource intensive it really shines - but isn't very achievable till level 9ish.

Crown of Stars is non Concentration too- I'd also add trapping them with non-concentration damage spells (arguably harder though). An example would be Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound together with something to keep the enemy still (which is likely a Concentration spell until higher levels unless a party member helps out).

[MaxWilson]

Agreed.

I think we can broadly categorize caster damage.

1. Nuclear Wizard Cheese
2. Non-Concentration single target damage - think fireball/magic missile
3. Concentration based single target damage - think spirit guardians/crown of stars
4. Trapping a creature in concentration based damage spell - requires multiple spells (often multiple casters to pull off)
5. Non-concentration duration spells - think spiritual weapon (not sure if there is another)

When I think of single target caster damage I think of options 2, 3 or 5.

Though even without option 1, which I fully agree with you on there is still option 4 and while more resource intensive it really shines - but isn't very achievable till level 9ish.

Opinion: what makes Nuclear Wizard feel like cheese isn't the result, it's that you get there via a very subtle rules interaction that feels like it shouldn't matter but for some reason does: the interaction between "simultaneous" and PHB guidance on how to roll AoE damage (roll once, apply multiple times) to bypass the PHB errata which changed Empowered Evocation to work on only one damage roll per round.

Empowered Evocation (p. 117). “The
damage roll” has been changed to “one
damage roll.”

"Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1) to the one damage roll of any wizard evocation spell that you cast."

It is WEIRD that Jeremy Crawford apparently thought Scorching Ray needed to be nerfed, but Magic Missile did not.

Personally I think the game is better without that errata, although restricting it to the round you cast it instead of every round would be fine. ("...any wizard spell you cast, on the turn that you cast it.") Then Evokers get a straightforward damage bonus which is useful for Scorching Ray/Magic Missile/Melf's Minute Meteors with no subtle readings required, and groups who like to roll Chain Lightning damage individually for each target get the same results as those who follow the PHB guidance on rolling only one, and ditto for those who like to roll Nd4+N for Magic Missile instead of (1d4+1)*N, etc.

Subtle details of how you roll your damage just shouldn't matter that much!

-Max

Crown of Stars is non Concentration too- I'd also add trapping them with non-concentration damage spells (arguably harder though). An example would be Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound together with something to keep the enemy still (which is likely a Concentration spell until higher levels unless a party member helps out).

Grappling works too. If a PC is already a fan of grapple / prone to grant advantage and force disadvantage, a Hound is basically just free damage on top of that at the cost of an action and a spell slot. The grappler can even reuse the Hound after the first enemy is dead, by dragging another target closer to the Hound. This is effectively a no-concentration damage buff to the grappler, so they don't have to just flail away with a shield bash for mediocre damage (d4+Str, no proficiency bonus).

Could be a wildshaped druid instead of a grappler per se, or even a Polymorphed Giant Ape using its +9 to Athletics (which might be why the wizard can't use a Concentration spell for damage, if he's the Polymorph caster).

MFH isn't fantastic as a combat spell but for a 1 action no-concentration spell, it's better than it looks. And it stacks with itself too--you can cast one every round in a long, tough fight.

[Withershins]

Okay, fair enough. That's slightly more doable, time-wise.



I haven't seen the movie, so I'll take your word for it.

So for your scenario, we're talking about at most a couple hours of actual dungeoneering, with room for a ton of short rests.

The density of short rest opportunities in this campaign makes me tempted to bring an all Warlock party.

All DPR figures are vs AC 17 (since that's the DMG-stated average for CR12). All results account for crit chance, accuracy, etc etc, and all decimal results are rounded to the nearest tenth.

For perspective, the resourceless damage of a GWM/PAM Battle Master (against the same AC) is just ~32.7. Their AC is 19 (18 if they don't take Defense), and their hp is 100 (with Con 14) or 112 (with Con 16).

So let's introduce our first party member.

Yamara d'Jorasco

Mark of Healing Halfling Celestial Pact of the Chain Warlock 11 / Life Cleric 1.

Them Heals
Let's take a look at just how powerful our healing is as a result of Jorasco + Life dip + Celestial. For perspective on the sheer quantity of hp value we're talking about here, a level 12, 14 Con Barbarian has 113 hit points at this level.

Celestial Resilience alone will generate 16 temp hp for you, plus 10 temp hp per character (for 5 characters other than you, meaning 3 party members + familiars), per short rest (for a grand total of up to (8*16)+(8*10*5) = 528 temp hp generated in MaxWilson's scenario).

Our Healing Light feature gives us 12 d6s we can hand out as we please using bonus actions, for a grand total of 42 hp value.

A slot spent on Aura of Vitality is worth ((2d6+7)*10)= 140 hp of non-combat healing per slot.

A slot spent on Cure Wounds is worth 5d8+12 = 34.5 hp of burst healing. Notably, you can combine this with your Healing Light on the same turn to burst for 52.5 hp healing, nearly the burst of a level 6 Heal spell.

A slot spent on Mass Healing Word is worth 3d4+12 = 19.5 hp of healing per party member (for a total of 78 hp value), as a mere bonus action. Notably, you can do this on the same turn that you, say, Eldritch Blast something.

In short, you have so much damn healing that the party can be expected to enter every single combat with full hit points, and Team Monster would have to do seriously fast burst in order to actually take anyone down.

And then, after all this, we take Gift of the Ever-Living Ones.

___

Teh Damagez
Now, let's take a look at our damage. All DPR figures are vs AC 17 (since that's the DMG-stated average for CR12). All results account for crit chance, accuracy, etc etc, and all decimal results are rounded to the nearest tenth. For perspective, the resourceless damage of a GWM/PAM Battle Master (against the same AC) is just ~32.7.

I even accounted for the effects of the Halfling "Lucky" feature in my math.

If we are concentrating on Spirit Shroud, our Eldritch Blast does 2d8+1d10+5 damage per ray (and an extra +5 damage on the first ray, from the 'Radiant Soul' feature, since Spirit Shroud does Radiant damage). This is worth ~47 DPR, ~52.1 DPR if our Familiar helps us, or ~62 DPR if we're standing inside of a Darkness.

Spirit Shroud is only a bonus action to activate, and has the duration to lasts for an entire encounter. Even if we only had 2 short rests instead of Max's 7, we would be able to do this for every encounter for 9 encounters, outdamaging standard GWM/PAM Fighters throughout, and still bringing the value of Celestial Resilience, Invocations, Healing Light, and a 6th level spell to the party.

What else do we have for damage options? Let's see. There's "Summon Fiend" for a Mystic Arcanum, which has 3 attacks for 2d6+9 each, and it has Devil's Sight so it can benefit from this party of Warlocks spamming Darkness. This means it has 32.3 DPR vs AC 17, or 44.7 DPR in Darkness. Notably, this is in addition to your regular Eldritch Blast DPR, which (without Spirit Shroud) is 22.4 DPR / 30 DPR with Advantage. For a grand total of 54.7 DPR / 74.7 DPR for an hour. Plus your Familiar can still Help someone for a bit more DPR!

There's also alternative damage options for our level 5 slot. If we're up against a group, Synaptic Static is really good, dealing damage like a Fireball, except with a much better damage type (Psychic), a much better saving throw (Intelligence), and carrying a strong non-Concentration debuff with it.

That debuff grants -1d6 to attack rolls, which is a strong defensive benefit to the party in general (it's like having ~70% of the value of the Shield spell for the whole party). It also grants -1d6 to ability checks, which can combo with a teammate's Hex to just completely hose someone's ability checks and leave them hyper-vulnerable to spells that use ability checks instead of saves, or just plain grappling or the like.

Another great aspect of it reduces ability checks is that it helps screw over Counterspell and Dispel Magic.

There's Wall of Fire, which deals 6d8+5 (32)/save for half AoE damage when it appears, then another 6d8 (27) true DPR with no save each time they end their turn on the wrong side, or try to pass through it. And it's really, really easy to get multiple procs on Wall of Fire on multiple creatures with Repelling Blast.

There's Armor of Agathys, which allows us to deal 25 true DPR (e.g. it can't miss) per melee hit that strikes us, until it breaks.

There's Cloud of Daggers, which deals 25 true DPR (e.g. it too cannot miss) per tick, and it's really easy to activate it multiple times by pinballing people around with Repelling Blast from multiple Warlocks. Like it's very feasible for this to put out 100 damage in a round to a creature. And it can affect multiple creatures.



There's Darkness, which basically gives you Advantage on all your (and your allies') Eldritch Blasting for 10 entire minutes (which means damage), plus gives many enemies Disadvantage to hit you, plus disables any enemy abilities that require them to see the target.

There's Hellish Rebuke, which deals a very respectable 6d10+5 (38)/save for half burst damage without even using your Action or Bonus Action, so that's stacking right on top of your Spirit Shroud + Eldritch Blast or whatever. And half of that damage is unmissable.

There's Summon Undead, Summon Fey, Summon Greater Demon, Summon Aberration, Summon Shadowspawn, and Summon Lesser Demons, all of which deal respectable damage over generous durations. I can't be bothered to go over every single one of those here, just think of it as a one-step-lower version of what I said about Summon Fiend. Summon Undead is really good at applying fear, Summon Shadowspawn is really good for denying movement, summon aberration can give a minion with regeneration, summon fey can create darkness squares for allies to abuse, give advantage, or wield shortswords. All of them offer different damage types for bypassing resistances, and Aberration/Undead can do ranged attacks.

And there's Thunder Step which does 5d10 (27.5) / save for half AoE damage in a 25-foot diameter, which is close to the damage of a Synaptic Static or Fireball but in a smaller area. The upshot is that you do this while simultaneously moving yourself and an ally up to 90 feet!

There's Guardian of Faith, which is basically a non-Concentration hazard that dishes out up to 60 damage.

There's Sickening Radiance, which covers a huge 60 foot diameter AoE and builds up exhaustion stacks as you bounce people in and out of it (on top of 4d10 damage on each failed Con save).

All of these are Nice Things. So grab up a few of these.

Cleric Spells
You get 2 extra spell slots as a result of your Cleric dip. You can use them for a boosted 1d4+8 (10.5) hp Healing Word, Bless, Command, Sanctuary, or Protection from Evil and Good (e.g. 1st level spells that retain their relevance at all levels).

Invocations!
We get 5 of these. We'll take Devil's Sight, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Eldritch Mind, and Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (which will take our healing from "really good" to "why yes, I can in fact restore my entire health bar in a turn, you squishy Barbarian").

ASIs
Tasha's race variant. Fey-Touched (+1 Cha) and +2 Cha. Take "Gift of Alacrity" as our Fey-Touched spell.

___


The Labyrinth
Now, I was going to take the time to make 4 of these Warlocks each taking complementary abilities making them more than the sum of their parts, but I realize I'm already running out of time to write stuff today, and Yamara is versatile enough (despite Celestial Resilience not stacking) that I bet 4 of him would do alright anyways (even though he's the healer of the party, and other folks like the party Hexblade can do waaaaay more damage, Yamara already can outdamage many martials). I call the Celestial Warlock a generalist for a reason, after all.

Team Yamara's "default" tactic will be for one of them to have Darkness up at any given time, while the other Yamaras open a fight with Spirit Shroud and Eldritch Blast @#$% into oblivion. Possibly with one or more of them dropping a hazard for the others to pinball people through. Alternatively they could use a summon instead of a Spirit Shroud. They drop fat heals (seriously, they can burst heal each other from 0-100 in a turn) as needed, or simply heal to full after each fight.

In fights 5, 6, 7, and 8, one of the Yamaras will have a fiend summoned via Mystic Arcanum. Each Yamara will be given Gift of Alacrity from Fey-Touched.

They will also hand the fiend a healing potion, just in case it wants to pick someone up off the death gate. They'll do the same for their Chain Pact familiars. Yamaras can produce healing potions themselves using their high (Jorasco-boosted) Herbalism skill, or just spend some of that massive wad of cash they saved by wearing medium rather than heavy armor (specifically, 4 half-plates instead of 4 full plates means 3000 gold to toss around). These can actually heal a full 10 hit points per potion, thanks to Gift of the Ever-Living Ones. Using your familiar's action, not yours. And there are 4 of those familiars, so... yeah.

I will solve problems using damage spells. Even my control spells will be damage spells (e.g. Synaptic Static, Repelling Eldritch Blast, Wall of Fire, etc).

Sound good? Good! I'm gonna take a peek at what's hidden in that spoiler block now, and see if Yamara holds up. Maybe I'll be surprised?

1) Okay... first fight is a Beholder in a tight space? Well the Beholder has a big problem, namely that it can't target people it can't see with eye rays, and while it can suppress Darkness with its antimagic cone, it can't fire eye rays at people while said cone is active. And its bite attack is peanuts. I suspect this is a stomp for Team Yamara with barely any resource expenditures.

2) Nycaloth and Glabrezu can both see through the Darkness, both have Dispel Magic, and the Glabrezu can cast Power Word Stun. They can certainly put up more of a fight than the Beholder can. However, their many resistances, including Magic Resistance, are all useless as a defense against Eldritch Blast + Spirit Shroud. And if they're using Dispel Magic on Spirit Shroud, they're not attacking and dealing damage, and they're only affecting 1 party member at a time (if they succeed on a casting check), and they're only reducing their damage rather than eliminating it, and they can just re-cast it as a bonus action anyways.

The fact that we're in a small demiplane is advantageous to the pair, since it makes it easier for them to actually get in range and attack the teleport-capable Repelling Blasters, but they don't really have the defenses to last for more than a coupla rounds, nor the offense to really threaten people as tanky as Yamara. Especially the Nycaloth (whose wounding ability is basically hard countered by Celestial Warlocks for barely any resources). The Glabrezu's grapples basically don't matter because of Repelling Blasts coming in from all sides. Team Yamara focuses down the Glabrezu first just because it seems like it does more damage (both with its attacks and spells), and because the Nycaloth presumably would be starting with Mirror Image and Invisibility.

3) This is Yamara's biggest threat so far -- the dragon can do meaningful damage while debuffing attack rolls with Frightful Presence. Thankfully, Team Yamara is proficient in Wisdom saves, has Advantage against fear, halfling luck, and can do plenty of damage even if most of their attacks miss (or even if they don't use attack rolls at all), so the fear's not a big deal.

Yamara also notices that it can't burrow because of the limits of the demiplane, as surely as it prevents Team Yamara from kiting with a staggering 120 feet worth of knockback. So he takes advantage of this with Wall of Fire, so that the creature has to approach them if it wants to use its melee options, and proceeds to pinball the dragon through hazards with Repelling Blast until it dies from massive damage. Remember that Wall of Fire does not offer saving throws for Legendary Resistance, beyond its initial appearance. So that's just 6d8 each time it enters the wall, and 6d8 each time it ends its turn in a position to actually hit the PCs. That's gonna add up awfully quick.

The damage from the breath weapons and melee attacks gets healed up as necessary, likely mostly with bonus actions or post-battle healing.

4) Accounting for their (low) Int saving throws, Synaptic Statics deal over 75 average damage each (between the 3 of them), plus totally screwing the attack rolls of these melee-reliant foes. Wall of Fire is also effective here, dealing 6d8 per tick (with those ticks racking up real quick thanks to them A) the narrow quarters of the demiplane, B) the monsters relying on melee range for their attacks and C) Repelling Blast). The Yeti even has a Fear of Fire disadvantage. The Chasmes are resistant to fire, but with no saving throw and multiple ticks, it's still a real threat to their low hit points. Basically, these monsters are gonna get wrecked.

The Abominable Yeti has a breath weapon, but it's likely to only get to use it once during the fight (because it only recharges on a 6).

Chasmes have a 37% chance to knock someone unconscious with their droning, but you can just have your familiars wake you up, or even have an ally poke you with one of the rays of their Eldritch Blasts (and still direct the rest of the rays at the enemy). After which you're immune to the Chasme's droning for 24 hours.

Chasmes also have the potential to reduce maximum hit points, but Yamara can undo this with Greater Restoration after the fight if it happens. Which it might not (because of Wall of Fire and Synaptic Static and Yamara's solid AC and Con save).

5) Ah, the Death Knight, an otherwise fearsome CR17 creature that's helpless against Forcecage. Thankfully for the Death Knight, Yamara doesn't have that spell quite yet, so Death Knight gets to actually play the game.

Mr. Death Knight does not have the ability to see through Darkness, so he's going to make all of his attacks at Disadvantage, while the Yamaras get to make their attacks at Advantage. It also means he can't use any of the "creature he can see" spells. This means Mr. Death Knight is probably going to rely on his AoE attacks, like Hellfire Orb or Destructive Wave.

Yes, he could use Dispel Magic on Darkness, but that's just exchanging his entire turn for a chance to remove 1/4th of the party's Actions (which they spend to simply re-cast it). Not a good deal for Mr. Death Knight. In fact he's better off tossing a Hellfire Orb and hoping someone loses Concentration.

Yamara can counteract the effects of these AoEs through his own AoE healing, or via Counterspells.

Team Yamara is also going to burn the Death Knight's hit points pretty fast since Darkness is working at full strength here. The Yamaras with Spirit Shroud are going to be burning through his 20 AC at a rate of 54.6 DPR each (and the one with Summon Fiend does considerably more). And Yamaras have an initiative roll advantage thanks to Gift of Alacrity, of course. These two things together means he might not even see more than 1 turn. Parry hardly even helps because it only blocks 1 ray.

Magic Resistance, as usual, continues to be an ineffective deterrent against magic and does not affect the fight at all.

Overall this is one of the more taxing encounters to Team Yams resources thus far, simply because Mr. Death Knight's AoEs are big and fat and do enough damage to actually break Concentration and cause re-casting, but it's nowhere close to making them actually run out.

6) One well-placed Synaptic Static can basically reduce this encounter to mush.

The Skulks are basically going to evaporate as soon as Synaptic Static hits. Even if they somehow don't, they are melee-attack based with a low attack bonus against characters with good AC, so... yeah.

The giant ape has no ability to deal with Darkness, so it's going to be plugging away at a paltry ~13.7 DPR. Once the first Synaptic Static falls (since this is an enemy group with low Int, so it's AoE-o-clock), it's going to see that plummet to a pathetic 6.7 DPR.

There's also gonna be a summoned fiend in the mix here, making Team Yams damage even higher.

The best chance Team Monster has is probably taking spread out positions surrounding the party to make it harder for them to AoE, but this is unlikely to work given Yamara's high initiative and mobility options. Even if they do avoid getting AoEed, they still have the problem that they can't do good damage

7) Interesting one!

Neogi Masters are surprisingly threatening for their CR. Their vision pierces Magical Darkness, and they have Counterspell (though their Counterspell has only a 50% chance of making the casting check to eat a Warlock slot), and they have mind control shenanigans. Not to mention that those Manglers do serious burst damage if they get their hands on a paralyzed PC.

Thankfully, our Lucky Halflings have a high (67%, or ~76% with Bless) chance of resisting their influence, but that's definitely not 100%.

The good news is that they don't have a lot of hit points or defenses, nor are they good at keeping their Concentration in the face of the high damage of Team Yams (especially since they have a fiend out for this fight). And the high number of creatures in this encounter means AoEs will be effective. And as always Team Yams has an initiative advantage and has a good chance of killing some of them (potentially even all of them via AoEs) before they get a turn.

Also, while they can see through Darkness, they can't see through, say, a Wall of Fire. Once Team Neogi's vision is blocked, they can't target Hold Persons or Counterspells. So you only really need to get off one spell (you can Counterspell their Counterspells if you have to), then clean them up with raw damage. Even if they manage to get a status effect on someone, you can get rid of that effect just by hitting the Neogis hard enough that they either A) lose Concentration or B) die.

Another thing the Neogis have to worry about is that Hold Person gets countered by Lesser Restoration, which every single Yamara can cast as a racial spell and as a Warlock spell.

But what about the worst case scenario? Even if the Neogis actually manage to paralyze someone and their Manglers actually start dishing out massive damage before it gets removed, the healing power of Team Yams is so high that they can pop that PC right back up to full. Heck, even if they literally kill the character, they can Revivify them and pick them back up to full hp.

So yeah, I'm expecting this one to involve an initial exchange of counterspells fighting over getting a vision blocker up, followed by rapid death of Neogi and Manglers once the vision blocker is established, with many either dying outright or dying as they try to flee the Wall of Fire death zone (the only way out is through the fire).

8) Oh snap, the plot twist! Githyanki and Mind Flayers working together! Cue boss music.

Now, the Githyanki Supreme Commander is mostly just another strong beatstick that Team Yams can run over -- it can't even see through Darkness or anything. The problem is the Mind Flayer Arcanist.

The Mind Flayer is very dangerous, as it actually targets one of Yamara's few weaknesses (his garbage Intelligence saving throw) with a really devastating status effect. I often specifically put something to deal with deadly Int saves in my parties (it's on my checklist of stuff to be prepped for, as some Int saves are party killers), but Team Yams doesn't have that because I just cloned one character 4 times for lack of time. So this will be a test of Yamara's ability to adapt.

Mind Blast has a whopping 73.75% chance of working on Yamara despite his Halfling luck, and stunning him for a duration. On average, Mind Blast will stun a Yamara for ~2.8 rounds. You can't even remove the stun with Lesser or Greater Restoration. That's bad.

Likewise, if it succeeds, it disables Darkness and gives Advantage to hit, meaning the Supreme Commander suddenly starts hitting for a whopping ~93 DPR (including their Legendary Actions), and helping the Mind Flayer get extra attempts to grapple/extract brain (it actually has a >30% chance to miss even with Advantage, and takes multiple actions to attempt to Extract Brain).

There are a few things that Team Yams can do about this.

- The first is that if their Chain Pact familiars manage to scout the fight, they can pre-buff with Bless and Protection from Evil using their Cleric slots, considerably raising their chances. They can also cast Aura of Purity from the Mark of Healing Halfling list. A halfling with Bless and Aura of Purity character only has a 37.2% chance of failing a Mind Blast, even with -1 Int. Concentration on PFG&E may lower their damage output, but it'll still be enough -- Mind Flayer Arcanist is a doom machine, but a squishy doom machine.

- The second is that with +2+1d8 (from Gift of Alacrity) to initiative vs the Mind Flayer's +1, there's a strong chance that one or more Yamaras will go before it does. And if they do, the plan is nova that @#$%er right @#$%ing now before he gets a turn. With only 15 AC and 71 hit points, the Mind Flayer Arcanist can be killed by one or two Yamaras going before him.

The Yamara using Summon Fiend has an average DPR of 31.7 (from their EB) + ~47 (from their fiend) for a total of ~78.8. One using Spirit Shroud has 65.5 DPR That's including the benefit of Halfling Lucky, Advantage from being in Darkness, and the level 6 ability of Celestial-lock applying to the first ray that hits.

Yes, the Mind Flayer can Shield, but they can (and should) just Counterspell that -- this is the encounter where they should nova and not conserve resources.

- The third is that they can try to spread out so that they don't all get caught in a cone shape.

- The fourth is that even if you get unlucky and all the @#$% hits the fan, if even one Yamara is up after the Mind Blast, they can keep blasting away at the squishy Mind Flayer, and it's not going to get to Mind Blast again immediately. They can also drop 24 hp AoE heals or 30 hp single target heals as a bonus action (thanks, Gift of the Ever-Living Ones), making it a lot harder to actually finish off their allies.

Notably, Repelling Blast breaks grapples, so you can save people from getting their brains eaten so long as even one character is up in time.

Even if every single party member and all their familiars get Mind Blasted, there's a chance of it wearing off every round, and it's gonna take a bit for the Supreme Commander and Mind Flayer to actually chew through the 103 hp, 19 AC Yamaras. And once they start getting up, they can start burst healing + doing reliable damage to the Mind Flayer. Even if someone died, if they didn't die specifically from Extract Brain, you can Revivify them + heal them to a respectable 38 hp in one turn. Basically the bounceback potential of Team Yams is very high.

Once the Mind Flayer is dead, the Supreme Commander's ability to kill them through the death gate basically evaporates and it's just a matter of time.

__

Note the Mind Flayer can also try to cast spells instead of just trying to mind blast + eat brains, but doing so opens it up to Counterspells, Dispels, and/or having its Concentration broken -- ultimately, it has less actions to cast spells than Team Yams does. And stuff like Wall of Force won't actually impede a Yamara that much because they're Fey-Touched. I'd say it's more dangerous with the Mind Blasting.

Okay, but what if there were a lot less short rests than Max's scenario?
Then I would probably have actually bothered to take the time to write up my full party rather than just clone Mr. d'Jorasco there, but let's say we had 2 short rests instead, and stuck with just Team Yams. That gives us (between the entire party), 4 L6 slots, 36 L5 slots, 8 L1 slots, 288 hp worth of Healing Light (thanks to Gift of the Ever-Living Ones), 64 hp of cures from the Jorasco racial feature, plus 4x Lesser Restoration from the Jorasco racial feature, plus 4x Gift of Alacrity and 4x Misty Step from Fey-Touched, and then our Pact of the Chain familiars.

That's a lot of stuff. You could clear the 8 encounters above with that using a similar methodology to the one I already described -- I was having tons of resources left over after each fight!

So, from the "entire party" perspective, we can straight up be using 6 spells per encounter over 8 encounters. Plus racial spells, Fey-Touched spells, Pact of the Chain familiars, cantrip combos, Healing Light, and Celestial Resilience. Plus the fact that some of those spell slots have long durations, and are going to last for multiple encounters!

____

Whew. Hopefully I didn't miss anything as I kind of had to hurry up as this took even longer than anticipated. Please correct me if I did.

LudicSavant,
This build is amazing...I love how thought out everything is and the balance between damage and support is exactly what I have been looking for...I know it is a big ask...could you possibly do a more thorough breakdown (level by level) in the style of your other builds? Thanks so much for what you do :D