3.P - Sizing Sword as a Stronghold for the Landlord Feat?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I've made mention several times in other threads about the possibility of using the Landlord feat to pump money into magic items as a form of optimization, but it seems like a lot of people think that making your sword a stronghold is both silly and stupid. I think otherwise. In another thread I had this to say:

If your sword really is your stronghold, because it does everything a stronghold does, how is treating it as what it is wrong?

Imagine it: A rounded riverine fantasy tower 50' tall, with crenellations at the top and windows strung around the outsides, with a spiral staircase winding around the outer edges next to the walls, with a new floor every 8' or so. To either side of the main tower, it has sweeping wings that are also hollowed out, allowing for barracks for soldiers, with a sealable entrance at ground level and windows with arrow slits that can be used to fire out of during an attack. Belowground, the riverine tower extends several additional hundred feet, and it flattens out, becoming a stacked set of 30' x 10' living spaces for anyone not stationed up in the barracks, all the way down to the bottom.

Sounds like a stronghold, doesn't it? And yet, it's a riverine +1 sizing weapon; the tower is the hilt, the crenelations are the pommel, the wide, sweeping wings are the crossguard (with a sealable entranceway embedded therein), and the hollowed-out, flattened area underground is the blade, stabbed into the earth prior to sizing it up.

I don't see why you can't have that as both a stronghold and a weapon. Giving it magic weapon enhancements can give it considerable utility and protection as a stronghold. Enhancement bonuses give it additional hit points and save bonuses, making it intelligent would give it resistances to attacks (such as disintegrate) and some spell-like abilities; imagine an intelligent tower that can cast prestidigitation at will to keep itself clean, heroes' feast 1/day to feed everyone who spends the night in it, invisibility to make the tower itself invisible, arcane lock on its own doors or on any other door it touches, or greater magic weapon to boost its saves against being targeted as both a weapon and as a building (along with the normal benefits of being a strong magical weapon) as examples.

Honestly? It sounds really, really awesome, to me.

[edit] Started a thread about it here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...1#post25010351

And I do think the visual of the sword as a stronghold is pretty darned appealing. It's also mechanically very useful. A riverine +1 sizing greatsword is only 24,350 gp,* which is WAY cheaper than building a riverine tower that large, and investing money into it via Landlord seems quite mechanically strong. Given how many weapon enhancements are useful for applying to a stronghold, I can't even see any real logical issues with allowing at least most of them. Even applying weapon crystals (from the MIC) seems to make a lot of sense, as well. Giving your tower a flaming/frost/shock aura to further protect it during a siege, for instance, is quite inexpensive and useful. Adding the animated or flying properties to it would allow you to have a floating tower that could act of its own volition, at your direction, and it's WAAAAY cheaper than making most strongholds fly.

So, here's my question: What other weapon enhancements would be extremely useful to have on a stronghold? Almost anything would be at least marginally useful, but which ones are basically no contest, usefulness-wise? At least, if given a bit of thought?




*A Fine-sized greatsword costs significantly less, and it has the exact same functionality.

[Godofallu]

If you're asking honestly I think that using the feat to pimp out a weapon is so obviously game breaking and against rules as intended that you have to be a little bit crazy and oblivious to think that would be ok.

We know the game is balanced around wealth by level and this would literally break that. In addition a weapon full of holes and tunnels ect would break even if you found a dm who would allow that level of madness.

Your game your life. But to me no way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're asking honestly I think that using the feat to pimp out a weapon is so obviously game breaking and against rules as intended that you have to be a little bit crazy and oblivious to think that would be ok.

We know the game is balanced around wealth by level and this would literally break that. In addition a weapon full of holes and tunnels ect would break even if you found a dm who would allow that level of madness.

Your game your life. But to me no way.

Weapons in general are insanely overpriced, to the point where keeping up with an appropriately leveled weapon for a martial character (or gods forbid, more than one) can massively hinder your ability to function in anything outside of "hit thing with other thing." And since most martial characters' class levels only apply to "hit thing with other thing," saving money to use for other stuff by utilizing a feat to make a strong weapon can improve your ability to be a well-rounded character. Especially if you're going into higher levels, where weapon prices are absolutely crazy.

So no, I don't think it's particularly problematic if you use the money in a way that helps you play a well-rounded character. Plus, the sword-tower is extremely cool.

[Silly Name]

First of all, style points for the idea because I agree it's a really cool idea.

I'd have some doubts about the structural integrity of the item in either tower or sword form. I'd argue that the belowground portion of the TowerSword would have to not be made habitable (if made originally as a sword), as building rooms and stairs in the riverine blade, because you'd be "inside" the water (assuming a riverine blade is made by two contiguous magical forcefields with water flowing in between, shaped like a sword, which as far as I can tell seems to be
the idea behind riverine).

Assuming we get past this hurdle, I'd also have some doubts about the actual availability of the stronghold as a weapon once your start populating and furnishing it. Obviously you'd have to evacuate the tower every time you want to use it as a sword, but what about the items inside? Do they need to be taken out prior to resizing the sword to useable size? Do they shrink and enlarge with the sword? If so, do they sensibly increase the sword's weight?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

First of all, style points for the idea because I agree it's a really cool idea.

Thanks! I agree 100%!

I'd have some doubts about the structural integrity of the item in either tower or sword form. I'd argue that the belowground portion of the TowerSword would have to not be made habitable (if made originally as a sword), as building rooms and stairs in the riverine blade, because you'd be "inside" the water (assuming a riverine blade is made by two contiguous magical force fields with water flowing in between, shaped like a sword, which as far as I can tell seems to be the idea behind riverine).

Note that the inside doesn't have to be solid. Just making the riverine as an extraordinarily thin membrane of two 2-D force fields with a molecule-thin patina of water sandwiched in between is as thick as you need it to be; riverine has infinite tensile strength, so it can be stretched infinitely thin. The sword won't weigh much at all, but given the blade can be of nigh infinite sharpness, this isn't too much of a problem. If it needs weight, add some extra along the length of the blade around the outer edges. Something much heavier than water or steel.

Assuming we get past this hurdle, I'd also have some doubts about the actual availability of the stronghold as a weapon once your start populating and furnishing it. Obviously you'd have to evacuate the tower every time you want to use it as a sword, but what about the items inside? Do they need to be taken out prior to resizing the sword to useable size? Do they shrink and enlarge with the sword? If so, do they sensibly increase the sword's weight?

I'd add several extradimensional spaces inside so all the personal items (including furniture) can be stored away quickly. That, and certain pieces of furniture, such as bed frames, can be part of the weapon's inner structure, and will thus shrink along with it.

Oh, one other enhancement that could go well with such a sword: morphing. I mean, duh, it allows you to make any weapon you want out of it, but it'd also allow you to set up the internal structure however you want. So if you want to cordon each floor into different rooms, you can do so easily. And if the weapon is intelligent, it can morph its internal structure for you on the fly. "Hey, could you put this bed over on that side of the room, maybe with a few walls here and here?" It might also allow the weapon itself to store everything away for you by shifting each room so that the items therein are pushed into the storage spaces.

[Vizzerdrix]

So could we save money if we use a net as a tent?

What weapon would provide the best building I wonder? Size wise that is.

How much space would a dagger have?

Could we combine this with that rod that turns into different weapons to make a building with changeable rooms?

Hmm...

[Silly Name]

So could we save money if we use a net as a tent?

Unless you fill in the holes, in which case it stops being a net, not really.

What weapon would provide the best building I wonder? Size wise that is.

How much space would a dagger have?

The trick here is that the Sizing weapon enchantment has, by RAW, no upper or lower bounds, so you can shrink or grow any weapon infinitely. Which means the answer to your questions are: "all of them", and "as much as you want".

[Telonius]

It would be interesting to see if Ghost Touch would prevent incorporeal things from accessing the inside of your stronghold.

A few from Magic Item Compendium. Everbright: your stronghold is immune to acid damage and rust. Chargebreaker: invaders had better stroll up casually. Corrosive: yeah, scaling the walls is not going to be fun. Harmonizing: Nice if you're a bard, or if you want to host a party or concert in the stronghold. Incorporeal Binding: If something incorporeal tries to get in, you can see it. Revealing: same for corporeal but invisible enemies.

[Kazyan]

If your Stronghold-Sword has the Flying enchantment, it's probably worth looking into the Item Familiar feat at level 7 or higher. This would give the sword sapience--and the associated mental stats. Because your sword now has an Intelligence score and it also has the Hit Dice it gains from the Flying enchantment, it might be eligible to take feats of its own.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It would be interesting to see if Ghost Touch would prevent incorporeal things from accessing the inside of your stronghold.

It wouldn't do much for a riverine weapon (being made of [force] and all), but if you're getting ghost touch for a non-riverine stronghold weapon, it's an easy one for a weapon crystal, since that's one of the options available, and if you can't get riverine (or add metalline to it) and don't want to spend a LOT of extra money, the weapon crystal is the way to go. Stack multiple effects onto one for extra efficiency.

[Kitsuneymg]

Unless you fill in the holes, in which case it stops being a net, not really.



The trick here is that the Sizing weapon enchantment has, by RAW, no upper or lower bounds, so you can shrink or grow any weapon infinitely. Which means the answer to your questions are: "all of them", and "as much as you want".

It does have a limit by RAW. Those would be fine and colossal. So 64’ feet tall and 125 tons. That is your upper limit. Fine is 6” or less, so there’s no lower limit.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It does have a limit by RAW. Those would be fine and colossal. So 64’ feet tall and 125 tons. That is your upper limit. Fine is 6” or less, so there’s no lower limit.

I'm pretty sure Colossal has no actual upper limit, since everything above Gargantuan is Colossal. That includes planet-sized creatures. And everything below Diminutive is Fine, including bacteria.

[Zaile]

I love this idea. It could have a backstory that it was a sword tower created by/for a Djinn instead of a lamp.

As far as structural integrity. A tower with many archways and interior walls would be as sturdy, if not more so than a solid piece. More than sturdy enough for the hilt/pommel. Material could realistically be anything and your hilt would have the coolest design ever. If the living areas in the blade also had a lot of arches, even the blade would be very sturdy.

Simply add a clause "when the tower shrinks, all creatures are ejected along with any items they wear or carry. Unattended items inside the tower shrink with it and remain locked in place until the sword grows back into a tower." OR "It cannot be deactivated unless it is empty." (Daern's fortress wording).

As far as price, use the base price for the weapon with sizing; then add some multiple of Daern’s Instant Fortress which is 55k for 20' radius by 30' high adamantine tower with another 10' of wall below ground (20 x 20 x 40). Riverine and adamantine are close in cost, so that's a wash in the calculation. For what you describe it's maybe 5 Daersn's fortresses? Using MIC rules, you can add off-slot enchantments to magic items for 150% of the base price (MIC p.233) of those enchantments, so a base cost would start around:

(5 x 55,000) x 1.5 = Minimum 412,000 gp
+ Total magic sword cost

[Albanymusicfund]

I've made mention several times in other threads about the possibility of using the Landlord feat to pump money into magic items as a form of optimization, but it seems like a lot of people think that making your sword a stronghold is both silly and stupid. I think otherwise. In another thread I had this to say:

And I do think the visual of the sword as a stronghold is pretty darned appealing. It's also mechanically very useful. A riverine +1 sizing greatsword is only 24,350 gp,* which is WAY cheaper than building a riverine tower that large, and investing money into it via Landlord seems quite mechanically strong. Given how many weapon enhancements are useful for applying to a stronghold, I can't even see any real logical issues with allowing at least most of them. Even applying weapon crystals (from the MIC) seems to make a lot of sense, as well. Giving your tower a flaming/frost/shock aura to further protect it during a siege, for instance, is quite inexpensive and useful. Adding the animated or flying properties to it would allow you to have a floating tower that could act of its own volition, at your direction, and it's WAAAAY cheaper than making most strongholds fly.

So, here's my question: What other weapon enhancements would be extremely useful to have on a stronghold? Almost anything would be at least marginally useful, but which ones are basically no contest, usefulness-wise? At least, if given a bit of thought?




*A Fine-sized greatsword costs significantly less, and it has the exact same functionality.

Sounds like the DM should whip out the ban hammer for this. It's not fun to break the game no matter how expensive weapons are usually.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sounds like the DM should whip out the ban hammer for this. It's not fun to break the game no matter how expensive weapons are usually.

If I'm not breaking the game with it, and it's entirely RAW, and it's all to the party's benefit to have a floating fortress weapon, and everyone's enjoying themselves, what's the problem?

[Beni-Kujaku]

There are a lot of points that are at best dubious and at worst directly against the rules in your assumption that you can use Landlord to enchant a sizing sword used as a stronghold.

First, the Landlord feat explicitly states that the money it gives you must be used to "build or expand" your stronghold. Enchanting your sword-hold is not building a stronghold, since it was built as a sword, and hence did not qualify. And it is not expanding it, since you are not adding any material to it (you could technically add some material to it, but it would not reduce in size when you try to make the sword Medium-sized again). So right off the bat, your reading of the Landlord feat doesn't work the way you think it works.

But even skipping that, it is really not clear you even could have a sword that big. If you could Size a weapon arbitrarily, any flying wizard could litterally crush a country with a Sizing mace. Considering almost everything in regard to weapons (damage tables, prices...), stop at colossal, it is very probable that "changing its size category" goes up to Colossal only. And the hilt of even a colossal sword is 3 to 5 meters at most, way too small to be a stronghold.
Even if you say that size categories go up to colossal+, colossal++, etc until infinity, the Sizing property explicitly says "the wielder of the sword can change its size category". But you cannot wield a weapon of more than one category bigger than you. So if you wanted your Colossal+++ sword-hold, you would have to find a Colossal++ creature willing to activate the Sizing property for you each time you use it.
And if you say that being the "wielder" is only being in contact with the thing, then that only means that any flying creature (like an enemy spellcaster, or just a raven), could just touch your stronghold's hilt and reduce it to literally crush or trap anyone inside.
Really, there is no easy solution here, whatever you try would be either incredibly dysfunctional or wouldn't work at all.

But even without that, just creating the sword would be a nightmare for every blacksmith there is. Carving miniature rooms, pipelines, stairs and other accomodations in a Medium sword meant to become Colossal+++ is next to impossible. Even moreso if the sword is Fine to begin with. You would have to find a blacksmith/goldsmith/watchsmith with enough ranks in Craft(Architecture) to reach the DC 70 that this should be. Not even counting that this is riverin! And you seem to imply that having it be Morphing would allow you to model the interior. That... is not how Morphing works. If it was, you could create almost any custom weapon or create any object with a morphing weapon. That is not the case. You can only create weapons, of the weapon list, of the same size category. Plus you still have the "wielder" mention. The Disintegration Finesse feat, from Lord of Madness, would probably work, though, if the spellcaster disintegrates parts of the sword-hold when it is already stronghold-sized.


Anyway, this breaks the game in so many ways and demands so many favorable interpretations that I think no DM in their right mind would ever allow it. But as you said, this is insanely cool. So if you ever find any DM that would let this fly, unlikely as it may be, I suggest the Warning property, allowing you to never be surprised when in your stronghold. Everbright would also be really good, to dazzle everyone trying to attack the sword-hold. But the most interesting would be Domineering. People touching the blade get shaken. So in a couple of rounds, everyone attacking the sword-hold would be frightened and run away.

[PraxisVetli]

I'm on the side of allowing this.
There are umpteen spells for a Wizard to just spawn a fortress into being or carry one with them, and no one bats an eye, but if a fighter wants a hotel sword, everyone loses their minds.

I think it's freaking awesome.

[Seerow]

My main complaint is building it as a sword first and assuming you can get all the stronghold stuff squeezed in there basically for free. I don't know that I'd trust rooms someone built at one inch scale to have anything resembling structural integrity when blown up to tower sized, and if it was that cheap/easy why is every building ever not created this way?

If I were the DM I'd have you price it out as a stronghold first, sword second. So when building your tower, you build it sword shaped, with the tower and underground layer just as you described. But that means you're paying for walls of riverine and all the rooms you want. Strongholds are expensive, but it is doable. (Though realistically you are probably better off with Steel walls or something since you're actually paying for the walls instead of just saying "I get it because it's a weapon")

Once you're satisfied with the tower, since you took the effort to make it the right proportion and shape to be a sword, you can add the sizing property onto it, to resize it to a usable weapon and enchant it with weapon mods appropriately from there. And sure, since it is your stronghold you're enchanting, you can dip into those stronghold funds for your weapon enchantments, and apply relevant beneficial weapon enchantments to the tower itself.

A fun side effect of this is a weapon fortress is way cheaper to make flying than any regular fortress. Why stab your tower into the ground when you have an honest to goodness airship to play with?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If I were the DM I'd have you price it out as a stronghold first, sword second. So when building your tower, you build it sword shaped, with the tower and underground layer just as you described. But that means you're paying for walls of riverine and all the rooms you want. Strongholds are expensive, but it is doable. (Though realistically you are probably better off with Steel walls or something since you're actually paying for the walls instead of just saying "I get it because it's a weapon")

Well, it's entirely possible to use spellcasting to get a stronghold for 100% free with a bit of effort, so I guess that means the sword is, too?

@Beni-Kujaku: You're expanding the item's functionality, so "build or expand" applies. Nobody ever said you have to expand its size, although the sword does that, too. There is also no upper limit to how big Colossal gets. It's literally the endcap for all size categories, and everything larger than Gargantuan is Colossal (except epic dragons, which get Colossal+, but that's basically extra benefits for being a Colossal epic dragon).

[Silly Name]

My main complaint is building it as a sword first and assuming you can get all the stronghold stuff squeezed in there basically for free. I don't know that I'd trust rooms someone built at one inch scale to have anything resembling structural integrity when blown up to tower sized, and if it was that cheap/easy why is every building ever not created this way?

If I'm understanding MaxiDuRarity's explaination right, the idea is to start with an hollow sword, turn it building-sized and then adding rooms and furniture. This is doable because riverine is a dumb "material" that breaks any pretense of realism or believability and a riverine blade would not be impacted by being hollow.

As to why not every building is done like this... Well, it's not exactly cheap. Riverine costs a pretty penny and isn't exactly commonplace, and then you'd have to spend money on enchanting it. It's far cheaper to build stuff the old-fashioned way. Also, some people don't like living in a sword.

[noob]

If I'm understanding MaxiDuRarity's explaination right, the idea is to start with an hollow sword, turn it building-sized and then adding rooms and furniture. This is doable because riverine is a dumb "material" that breaks any pretense of realism or believability and a riverine blade would not be impacted by being hollow.

As to why not every building is done like this... Well, it's not exactly cheap. Riverine costs a pretty penny and isn't exactly commonplace, and then you'd have to spend money on enchanting it. It's far cheaper to build stuff the old-fashioned way. Also, some people don't like living in a sword.

Then they can live in a riverine shoe?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Well, it's entirely possible to use spellcasting to get a stronghold for 100% free with a bit of effort, so I guess that means the sword is, too?

@Beni-Kujaku: You're expanding the item's functionality, so "build or expand" applies. Nobody ever said you have to expand its size, although the sword does that, too. There is also no upper limit to how big Colossal gets. It's literally the endcap for all size categories, and everything larger than Gargantuan is Colossal (except epic dragons, which get Colossal+, but that's basically extra benefits for being a Colossal epic dragon).

Yeah, no. Words have meaning, and expanding something's functionality is not the same as expanding it.

Collin's dictionary: VARIABLE NOUN
Expansion is the process of becoming greater in size, number, or amount.
...the rapid expansion of private health insurance. [+ of]
...a new period of economic expansion.
The company has abandoned plans for further expansion.
Synonyms: increase, development, growth, spread

Gaining new functionalities is not expanding, not for a stronghold.

And for the size category, even if you have the "no size category above Colossal" rule (which is RAW, so fair enough), Sizing only allows you to choose the size category, not choose the size. So you would only be able to go up to a colossal sword, not have it grow to the size of a stronghold. And a colossal sword's hilt is still much much smaller than that. And I repeat, if you could choose any size without limitation, then one could literally crush a country with any Sizing weapon. Which is clearly not what a +1 property does. (plus, it would mean that any Gargantuan creature could wield your stronghold with only a -4 malus, which is kind of ridiculous when the hilt is several times larger than the gargantuan creature itself.)

[Crake]

If I'm not breaking the game with it, and it's entirely RAW, and it's all to the party's benefit to have a floating fortress weapon, and everyone's enjoying themselves, what's the problem?

Is it though? The landlord feat comes from the stronghold builder's guide, and thus, by RAW, a "stronghold" must adhere to the stronghold building rules within that book, including cost for construction. Whether you could or couldn't include it into your sizing sword is one question, but if you want to include all these parts on your weapon, someone needs to construct it, and whether they construct it while it's tiny, or huge, that costs time and effort, and would need to adhere to the stronghold builder's guide on how much that all costs. That's before you even get the question of whether riverine can even get that much detail, considering it's made of walls of force, and the wall of force spell is like, pretty limited in how you can shape it, that is to say, it's a single flat plane. Each corner would require another cast in the item's construction, so it wouldn't be cheap. Of course, riverine only has costs for crafting armor and weapons from it, and nothing else, so it becomes questionable if you even could make a stronghold out of riverine, sizing or not.

So no, it doesn't really sound "entirely RAW" to me.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Stronghold: a place that has been fortified so as to protect it against attack.

Does that sound like it applies to the tower setup I mentioned earlier? Because I think it sounds like it applies to the tower setup I mentioned earlier.

[Crake]

Stronghold: a place that has been fortified so as to protect it against attack.

Does that sound like it applies to the tower setup I mentioned earlier? Because I think it sounds like it applies to the tower setup I mentioned earlier.

I'm not arguing whether or not it counts as a stronghold, I'm arguing about you choosing to completely ignore all the associated rules and costs with crafting and constructing a stronghold specifically associated with the book of which the feat you're talking about comes from.

[InvisibleBison]

In order to activate the sizing ability, someone needs to be wielding the weapon. Where are you going to find someone big enough to wield a ~275 foot long sword?

[Crake]

In order to activate the sizing ability, someone needs to be wielding the weapon. Where are you going to find someone big enough to wield a ~275 foot long sword?

Also a good question. A better method I think would be to combine an instant fortress effect to the sword instead, using the rules for combining magical effects, and work from there.

[noob]

In order to activate the sizing ability, someone needs to be wielding the weapon. Where are you going to find someone big enough to wield a ~275 foot long sword?

I think it can be found.
Any colossal creature can wear any colossal weapon(they might have -4 to hit for non proficiency) provided they have enough str to carry it.

[Drelua]

The way I read the morphing property, you can turn the weapon into, say, a greatsword, but it would be a standard greatsword, not a greatsword customized into a stronghold. And there doesn't seem to be an option to turn it off, you just morph it again, so I don't see that helping you any.

For sizing, as someone else pointed out, you choose the size category, not the specific dimensions. Say it's a particularly big greatsword, 6 feet long, and you size it to colossal. That doubles it's size 4 times, to 96.' Might be long enough, but if we say the blade's maybe 4 inches wide, and I can't see it being much wider, then your stronghold goes up to 64 inches wide. That's 5'4". You'd have to size it to at least colossal++ for it to be wider than a hallway, which I guess you could do by a strict reading of sizing, but the property can only be activated by the weapon's wielder, so good luck changing it back. Even if you can find a colossal+ friend to activate it for you, they might just decide to rob you. And what are you gonna do about it? They're bigger than you and they've got your sword.

I also have to agree that this does not fit the definition of expand.

I do kinda like the idea of a fortress that turns into a sword, but can't see how it works by RAW. But if you do find a game where it's allowed, I wouldn't go with a greatsword. Pick a reach weapon, like a lucerne hammer or something, that has to be bigger.

[InvisibleBison]

I think it can be found.
Any colossal creature can wear any colossal weapon(they might have -4 to hit for non proficiency) provided they have enough str to carry it.

I'm sure there are colossal creatures strong enough to carry a 275 foot long sword, but there is a difference between carrying a weapon and wielding a weapon. As far as I know, 'wield' is never given a specific rules meaning, so we fall back on real-world meanings, such as "to use (a weapon, instrument, etc.) effectively; handle or employ actively" or "to handle (something, such as a tool) especially effectively", neither of which describe someone carrying a sword three or four times their height.