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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    So I've been looking over Aberrant Mind, the spells it provides and sorcerer metamagic and I noticed that Careful Spell makes it that you can select creatures up to your Charisma modifier that don't have to make saving throws against the spell cast. So I was wondering does that mean an Aberrant Mind sorcerer could cast Evard's Tentacles with Careful spell and make it that they won't be harmed by Evard's tentacles?

    Or would it just keep them from being restrained?
    Shy Tentacle Monster in the Playground... It's not as bad as it sounds, I swear.

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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Since no save is made when the spell is cast, careful spell does absolutely nothing with this spell.

    Careful spell kicks into effect "when you cast a spell" (=the moment you cast a spell, not if you cast a spell). Black Tentacles takes effect at the start of a creature's turn.
    Last edited by Crucius; 2021-04-18 at 03:49 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    I was all set to debate Crucius' interpretation, but after doing a bit of research I agree with them. From the way the other metamagics are written, "when" pretty much means "as".

    I might allow it, though. You're burning a resource to tweak the spell... it's not your fault the save isn't made at that point in time.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Yeah, I figured it was too good to be true. It's a shame too because that means the only metamagic that affects it is subtle (which you kind of get later as an Aberrant mind sorcerer) and extended (which only increases the duration by 1 minute (which doesn't seem to be worth the sorcery point). I guess quickened might work too but still.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by werescythe View Post
    Yeah, I figured it was too good to be true. It's a shame too because that means the only metamagic that affects it is subtle (which you kind of get later as an Aberrant mind sorcerer) and extended (which only increases the duration by 1 minute (which doesn't seem to be worth the sorcery point). I guess quickened might work too but still.
    unfortunately, the official interpretation is that careful spell is *supposed* to be complete and utter trash except when combined with a tiny selection of spells, which allow it to be occasionally useful.

    the way it is written doesn't support that at all, by the way, no matter what nonsense people spew out of their mouths (and no, being a dev doesn't keep anyone from spouting nonsense; the words on the page do not change just because they meant for them to say something completely different from what they say).

    as written, when you cast the spell you choose people. those people are then guaranteed to pass saving throws. it doesn't say a single damn word about the timing of the saving throw, or for that matter the number of saving throws, so the only reason we even know that they meant for it to suck is that we've been very specifically told that it was supposed to suck. and also, we learned at the same time that the people who write D&D don't seem to be capable of grasping the fact that some random RPG author cannot retroactively rewrite the english language to mean whatever they want.

    in any case, basically it's supposed to work well with fear, confusion, and hypnotic pattern, be frankly pretty bad with AoE damage spells but at least not completely non-functional, and to not work well at all with basically anything else. if you really love one of those three spells but have to constantly worry about friendly fire, or if you have a full party of people with evasion and love fireball, consider learning careful spell. otherwise, you can leave it alone until later. or never.
    Last edited by SharkForce; 2021-04-18 at 08:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    in any case, basically it's supposed to work well with fear, confusion, and hypnotic pattern, be frankly pretty bad with AoE damage spells but at least not completely non-functional, and to not work well at all with basically anything else. if you really love one of those three spells but have to constantly worry about friendly fire, or if you have a full party of people with evasion and love fireball, consider learning careful spell. otherwise, you can leave it alone until later. or never.
    Or just see if your DM is willing to go by the actual PHB text instead of Twitter, and enjoy the awesomeness that is Careful Evard's Black Tentacles. And yes, always passing your saves means you will neither be restrained nor take damage, although you do have to deal with the difficult terrain.

    As far as PHB wording is concerned, Heighten Spell is restricted to affecting the "first saving throw" whereas Careful Spell is not. Reasonable inference: it works every time a protected creature (which you selected when cast the spell and used Careful) is asked to make a saving throw against (that particular casting of) the spell.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-18 at 08:20 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Or just see if your DM is willing to go by the actual PHB text instead of Twitter, and enjoy the awesomeness that is Careful Evard's Black Tentacles. And yes, always passing your saves means you will neither be restrained nor take damage, although you do have to deal with the difficult terrain.
    I mean, most of the people I play with don't look at the twitter, so if I kept my mouth shut I could probably get away with it... but my consciousness would come back and bite me in the ***, so I'd probably just check with the DM before taking the option.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    As far as PHB wording is concerned, Heighten Spell is restricted to affecting the "first saving throw" whereas Careful Spell is not. Reasonable inference: it works every time a protected creature (which you selected when cast the spell and used Careful) is asked to make a saving throw against (that particular casting of) the spell.
    You see, I just think it would be cool to cast a Careful Evard's Black Tentacles on one's self or allies from melee attackers, or to throw it in a choke point, but have it that the tanks/fighters can run through, around in it without having to worry about being restrained/damaged by the spell.

    So I guess the only metamagic that affects the spell effectively would be Subtle (again, not necessary when playing an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer), Extended and Quickened. I could see Quickened being useful, but I'm not too sure how handy Extended would be.
    Shy Tentacle Monster in the Playground... It's not as bad as it sounds, I swear.

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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by werescythe View Post
    I mean, most of the people I play with don't look at the twitter, so if I kept my mouth shut I could probably get away with it... but my consciousness would come back and bite me in the ***, so I'd probably just check with the DM before taking the option.

    You see, I just think it would be cool to cast a Careful Evard's Black Tentacles on one's self or allies from melee attackers, or to throw it in a choke point, but have it that the tanks/fighters can run through, around in it without having to worry about being restrained/damaged by the spell.

    So I guess the only metamagic that affects the spell effectively would be Subtle (again, not necessary when playing an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer), Extended and Quickened. I could see Quickened being useful, but I'm not too sure how handy Extended would be.
    Sure, check with the DM. Tell him "the rules say XYZ, but WotC's corporate spokesperson once said on Twitter they meant to write them differently to be weaker but didn't. I think the PHB rules are fair as written and would to use them. Specifically I think it would be cool to use Careful Spell to create a no-friendly fire zone for Evard's Black Tentacles. Do you have a problem with me taking Careful Spell and expecting that combo to work?"

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    The RAW on Careful Spell certainly doesn't state that the spell has to inflict a save when cast - it states you must choose who to protect when you cast. EBT is clearly a valid choice for the metamagic.

    A much bigger problem stems from a lack of careful wording of the sort that Twinned Spell has: RAW, Careful Spell works fine on a spell that only ever allows 1 saving throw, but for a spell like EBT, which can inflict 10 saves or more on a target, you run into trouble with the final sentence of Careful Spell, which states that the chosen target succeeds on its saving throw, singular. This references the first line of Careful Spell, where you had to pick a spell that inflicted a saving throw, but that sentence, grammatically, covers any spell inflicting at least one saving throw. This isn't trouble as in, "the metamagic can't be applied to the spell", it's trouble as in, "there's grammatically no way to obey the metamagic now", because "its saving throw" is not a defined concept for the spell ("its saving throws" is the the defined concept). This problem isn't even unique to spells that cause saves over time; if you cast Earthquake, you'll enter the same grammatical paradox, in which the spell clearly qualifies for the metamagic, and there's literally no way to obey the RAW - protecting protected targets from dealer's choice of the Dex or Con save, both, or neither are all both obeying the RAW and violating it, depending on you interpret it. The grammar's just awful.

    Your GM would be well within reason to declare that targets protected by the metamagic burn up their protection on the first save they would otherwise make against the spell. This won't solve the Earthquake problem - both saves are simultaneous - but it is just as grammatically valid a solution to EBT as letting the metamagic work on all saves and no save (that is, all three answers are invalid, and there is no valid answer).
    Last edited by quindraco; 2021-04-19 at 02:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Careful Spell would work with Evard's.

    If they wanted it to be on the casting only it'd have been errata'd like Twinned was, especially since something like Heightened is pretty clear on when it works (and it works even if the spell doesn't make you save on the time of the casting).

    And just like Heightened if it had to happen on only the first saving throw they'd have specified that too.

    Twitter doesn't count- JC's words not only aren't official, but also either wrong or contradictory several times (There were past discussion where there were multiple tweets on the same argument that said the opposite from each other).

    And it would protect from damage and restrained, yes (because Evard's saving throw is all or nothing).

    EDIT: And depending on how your DM interprets 'enter' the spell could be forcing people to make saving throws when casted.
    Last edited by Valmark; 2021-04-19 at 03:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Careful spell needs the help so I don’t think there’s much problem in being permissive in its reading. If you are going by the strictest reading of the spell it basically works for... faerie fire and hypnotic pattern.

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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by quindraco View Post
    A much bigger problem stems from a lack of careful wording of the sort that Twinned Spell has: RAW, Careful Spell works fine on a spell that only ever allows 1 saving throw, but for a spell like EBT, which can inflict 10 saves or more on a target, you run into trouble with the final sentence of Careful Spell, which states that the chosen target succeeds on its saving throw, singular. This references the first line of Careful Spell, where you had to pick a spell that inflicted a saving throw, but that sentence, grammatically, covers any spell inflicting at least one saving throw. This isn't trouble as in, "the metamagic can't be applied to the spell", it's trouble as in, "there's grammatically no way to obey the metamagic now", because "its saving throw" is not a defined concept for the spell ("its saving throws" is the the defined concept).
    I disagree, and comparison with Heightened Spell illustrates why: they both deal with one save at a time (singular, not plural), but Heightened goes on to add that it only works on the first, while Careful doesn't.

    Heightened: "When you Cast a Spell that forces a creature to make a saving throw to resist its Effects, you can spend 3 sorcery points to give one target of the spell disadvantage on its first saving throw made against the spell."

    Careful: "When you Cast a Spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell."

    As a result, the clause "automatically succeeds" is reusable, every time a protected creature makes a save.

    Check with your DM but that's what the PHB tells me.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    to be clear, I do think the metamagic is a little overtuned if it works on every save for 1 SP. working on only the first saving throw against that spell would be a reasonable middle ground (or, alternately, making it cost a little bit more, though I'm not completely set on how high that cost should be; I'm torn between it working on one save/person for every SP you spend, or just a flat 3 SP for all saves against that spell, because I think 2 SP is still not quite enough).

    I just think it's idiotic that they chose an interpretation that makes the metamagic work with only a tiny selection of spells by declaring that it only works in the exact instant where the spell was cast. 1 SP to be able to drop a web on your own party while allowing them to move out of it on their turn would be a decent and worthwhile ability and could actually be worth a metamagic selection for someone who wants to focus on that aspect. what we have instead is a metamagic where you can basically count the number of spells it works well with on two hands. or, if we're looking exclusively at the sorcerer spell list (ie the class that actually gets the ability), one hand.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    to be clear, I do think the metamagic is a little overtuned if it works on every save for 1 SP. working on only the first saving throw against that spell would be a reasonable middle ground (or, alternately, making it cost a little bit more, though I'm not completely set on how high that cost should be; I'm torn between it working on one save/person for every SP you spend, or just a flat 3 SP for all saves against that spell, because I think 2 SP is still not quite enough).
    Honestly, I'd be cool with that, if WotC came out with a new version of Careful Spell (or some other metamagic variant of it) that could keep the group safe from the spell for the full duration for 3 SP.

    It would make it a very good option (compared to now).
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by werescythe View Post
    Honestly, I'd be cool with that, if WotC came out with a new version of Careful Spell (or some other metamagic variant of it) that could keep the group safe from the spell for the full duration for 3 SP.

    It would make it a very good option (compared to now).
    well, so long as we're talking about tweaking metamagics to be more valuable, I'll throw in my buff for extended spell as well;

    when a spell's duration is about to end, you can expend 1 SP to refresh the duration (no more than once per spell, and still capped at 1 day... but I do remove the 1 minute minimum). this has 2 important effects:

    1) you don't spend the SP unless you need it.
    2) much like empower spell, it allows you to use another metamagic on the spell initially (the restriction to one metamagic is when you cast the spell, which means if you're using a metamagic after the fact it doesn't apply... but for clarity's sake, I do make this explicit)

    this leads to a very slightly nerf to extended aid (in its book form, you can pay the full cost the day before; my version, you'll have to spend 1 SP on the day you wish to benefit from the spell). but more importantly, it makes the metamagic a lot more appealing for every other spell where it could be valid.

    it still doesn't seem to be anyone's top choice, but I do think it is at least worth considering that way.

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    well, so long as we're talking about tweaking metamagics to be more valuable, I'll throw in my buff for extended spell as well;

    when a spell's duration is about to end, you can expend 1 SP to refresh the duration (no more than once per spell, and still capped at 1 day... but I do remove the 1 minute minimum). this has 2 important effects:

    1) you don't spend the SP unless you need it.
    2) much like empower spell, it allows you to use another metamagic on the spell initially (the restriction to one metamagic is when you cast the spell, which means if you're using a metamagic after the fact it doesn't apply... but for clarity's sake, I do make this explicit)

    this leads to a very slightly nerf to extended aid (in its book form, you can pay the full cost the day before; my version, you'll have to spend 1 SP on the day you wish to benefit from the spell). but more importantly, it makes the metamagic a lot more appealing for every other spell where it could be valid.

    it still doesn't seem to be anyone's top choice, but I do think it is at least worth considering that way.
    I like that. And not just because it kinda reminds me of my "Persistent" Metamagic.

    (Persistent Spell - When you cast a concentration spell, you may spend any number of sorcery points to make it persist for a number of rounds after your concentration ends equal to the number of sorcery points you spent. However, you still lose any ability to exert control over the spell after your concentration ends.

    This metamagic can't extend a spell's duration beyond its maximum duration.)

    Before this, I'd have buffed Careful by letting it apply to cantrips for 0 sp. Let you skip the cantrip's save in exchange for reducing its damage.
    Last edited by HPisBS; 2021-04-20 at 09:59 AM.
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    So I agree that it could be made more clear, but careful spell does say it protects against a saving throw, not throws. If nothing else, the thing that makes me think careful was never attended to work on more than one saving throw, is just how cheap it is.

    Just think about the effect a 'persistent' careful would have. It completely changes the nature of spells like web, stinking cloud, sickening radiance, and more. Your allies can now hang out in the area of effect, completely protected, and enemies have to make repeated saves just to attack them. This all for one sorcerer point? Careful is now probably the most powerful metamagic for it's cost.

    Now I do wish there were more spells that worked with careful, but I think it's undervalued currently. Hypnotic pattern is one of the best spells not only for it's level but for a good chunk of the game, and taking away one of its few weaknesses (friendly fire) is a huge plus. Careful can also be used with spells like acid stream, grease, watery sphere, and reverse gravity.

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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    *snip restated argument about wording*

    Just think about the effect a 'persistent' careful would have. It completely changes the nature of spells like web, stinking cloud, sickening radiance, and more. Your allies can now hang out in the area of effect, completely protected, and enemies have to make repeated saves just to attack them. This all for one sorcerer point? Careful is now probably the most powerful metamagic for it's cost.
    Only against melee monsters with short reach. Don't get me wrong, in the right scenario it's delicious, but it's not universally applicable either. E.g. you can't hide the party inside a Careful Web if monsters with 10' reach can surround it from any angle. They can reach any spot in the Web without entering the Web. So you need to pick the right placement for the Careful Web, and then avoid getting anyone grappled and dragged out. It's a great metamagic but not as simple to use as you're saying.

    I think "most powerful metamagic for its cost" is debatable (Quickened is excellent for gishes, Subtle is powerful against counterplay and in certain kinds of noncombat situations, and Extended can double the healing output of Aura of Vitality and lets you long rest without losing Death Ward and Aid--my money is on Extended), but even so, that doesn't mean you need to nerf it into virtual uselessness. There's nothing wrong with SOMETHING being the most powerful.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-20 at 09:46 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    So I agree that it could be made more clear, but careful spell does say it protects against a saving throw, not throws. If nothing else, the thing that makes me think careful was never attended to work on more than one saving throw, is just how cheap it is.

    Just think about the effect a 'persistent' careful would have. It completely changes the nature of spells like web, stinking cloud, sickening radiance, and more. Your allies can now hang out in the area of effect, completely protected, and enemies have to make repeated saves just to attack them. This all for one sorcerer point? Careful is now probably the most powerful metamagic for it's cost.

    Now I do wish there were more spells that worked with careful, but I think it's undervalued currently. Hypnotic pattern is one of the best spells not only for it's level but for a good chunk of the game, and taking away one of its few weaknesses (friendly fire) is a huge plus. Careful can also be used with spells like acid stream, grease, watery sphere, and reverse gravity.
    it doesn't necessarily specify only one saving throw. it could just as easily mean that if you have to make a saving throw, you automatically pass that saving throw.

    it also isn't just the number of saves... as I said, for 1 SP I think all saving throws caused by a spell is extremely strong. perhaps even too strong (that said, transforming the entire nature of a spell is exactly the sort of thing metamagic should have done from the beginning if that was going to be *the* big feature of the class). I would have felt it was tolerable if it was *only* a matter of it being one saving throw instead of all. I think it's way less interesting that way, and would prefer an increased cost in exchange for increased effect, but it would at least be a reasonable choice of metamagic that lets you do some interesting stuff.

    no, the real killer is the timing. spells that create a thing might not even count; you don't make a save when grease is cast, you make a save when the grease appears (not that sorcerers got grease at the time in the first place... or were likely to struggle much to place the 2x2 square AoE safely in the first place). you don't make a save because watery sphere is cast, you make a save when the creature is in the area (and again, the AoE is not really that hard to position safely in the first place). it is questionable whether careful even does anything for those spells. and while a web that the party can fight in might be a bit much, what we got *instead* is a metamagic that does *absolutely nothing whatsoever* with web. it doesn't reduce the friendly fire effect *even the tiniest bit*.

    they basically told us that they deliberately intended for careful to do absolutely nothing for most spells that you can cast it on. it was one of the first rulings that made me lose a lot of respect for the current dev team, and begin to suspect that when they fired a bunch of folks that had written the core books it wasn't just a loss of quantity, but also a very real loss of quality in their development team.

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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    it doesn't necessarily specify only one saving throw. it could just as easily mean that if you have to make a saving throw, you automatically pass that saving throw.
    Especially given that Heighten Spell also uses the singular ("saving throw") while clearly also including spells which force more than one saving throw (because it affects only the first such saving throw).

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    they basically told us that they deliberately intended for careful to do absolutely nothing for most spells that you can cast it on. it was one of the first rulings that made me lose a lot of respect for the current dev team, and begin to suspect that when they fired a bunch of folks that had written the core books it wasn't just a loss of quantity, but also a very real loss of quality in their development team.
    Did they? Who got fired?

    I know Rodney Thompson left in 2015 but leaving != fired. I do regret his departure though because not only was he lead the lead of player mechanics design (per his 2013 resume anyway) but from he seemed to have pretty good design sense, from what I can tell of his talks and writings (see video in my .sig).

    Were there other folks who left around the same time?
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-04-21 at 01:25 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Especially given that Heighten Spell also uses the singular ("saving throw") while clearly also including spells which force more than one saving throw (because it affects only the first such saving throw).



    Did they? Who got fired?

    I know Rodney Thompson left in 2015 but leaving != fired. I do regret his departure though because not only was he lead the lead of player mechanics design (per his 2013 resume anyway) but from he seemed to have pretty good design sense, from what I can tell of his talks and writings (see video in my .sig).

    Were there other folks who left around the same time?
    I don't think they were fired... most likely they were simply hired for a fixed term and not renewed.

    when 5th was first coming out, they needed a large team to get the core books finished. once the core books were gone, everything I've heard says they lost a lot of staff simply because they didn't need a big enough team to develop 3 core books at the same time any more.

  22. - Top - End - #22

    Default Re: Careful Spell and Evard's Black Tentacles?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    I don't think they were fired... most likely they were simply hired for a fixed term and not renewed.

    when 5th was first coming out, they needed a large team to get the core books finished. once the core books were gone, everything I've heard says they lost a lot of staff simply because they didn't need a big enough team to develop 3 core books at the same time any more.
    I concur, that's what it looks like to me too, based on what little data is publicly available to my Google-fu, e.g. Rodney Thompson doesn't seem to have gone to a big videogame studio or anything, he's still developing indy games on Kickstarter. Being a game designer must be a hard life.

    But to your main point, I agree that the difference in design philosophy between 2014 and 2021 is noticeable. It's clearly not the same team.

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