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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    As the title says, is it possible to build a tier 1 Psion?

    So far this is what I've come up with but I'm not sure if it's versatile enough and I need help for the later levels

    Race: venerable necropolitan grey elf

    -fixes your hitpoints
    -raises all your mental stats significantly
    -gives you rapier, longsword and bow proficiency which all have their uses in the early game
    -necropolitan can be healed by most psionic powers

    STATS 32 pts buy

    STR 10 (I find it best to avoid a penalty if only for carrying capacity)
    DEX 16 (lets you maximize your AC with a mithril chain shirt and a magical bonus to DEX)
    CON -
    INT 23 (main stat, gets every increase)
    WIS 14 (for metamorphic transfer)
    CHA 14 (social skills and certain powers)

    equipment and key magic items:

    darkwood heavy shield (no penalties despite the lack of proficiencies and it only costs 110 gold)
    mithril chain shirt (same as above, only costs 1100 gold)

    Why bother with armor and shield? It's a lot of AC for no power points and it can't be dispelled. Plus they can be enchanted.

    As for weapons I would use a feycraft rapier until control body can let you use a longsword properly and, for ranged combat, you should always pack a longbow. Especially at early levels where psionic grease can let you plink away at your enemies until they're all dead.

    finally a bargain price source of constant healing is a small amount of permanent black sand (660 gold) that you eat or just keep close by. Technically it'll even hurt anyone stupid enough to try and grapple you.

    as for which discipline to choose...

    I'd go for telepath because of the ACF and the skills. Since hidden talent gets you astral construct the shaper is just not that impressive and expanded knowledge can get you control body and metamorphosis. The other broken power you need during normal gameplay (schism and dominate) are already on your list.

    Alternate class features

    -telepathy which lets you take mindsight. You'll never need to worry about listen and spot to locate most types of sneaking enemies (mindless invisible enemies aren't that common)

    Feats and bonus feats

    Level 1 : hidden talent (astral construct)
    bonus feat: pricrystal affinity (necessary for the share pain combo)
    Level 3 : knowledge devotion
    Level 6 : Mindsight
    Level 9 : expanded knowledge control body
    Level 10 :
    bonus feat : expanded knowledge metamorphosis
    Level 12 : metamorphic transfer


    Key powers I've got on my list so far

    -attraction is better than charm person long term (since you have a decent CHA score and plenty of skillpoints to fuel it)

    -astral construct is basically summon monster 1-9

    -Dominate works against anything not immune to mind affecting spells and turns them into allies, it doesn't even cost you an action since your schism self can cast it for you

    -Control body works really well against humanoid undead and constructs. Since they don't have a con score their fortitude save just isn't that good. With your insane INT score this should almost always work. It also works on yourself (and suddenly you get INT to hit, AC and damage).

    -schism basically means there's two of you

    -if you use metamorphosis + control body you become a monster (especially with a maxed out knowledge devotion)

    -temporal acceleration is basically timestop but you get it way earlier than a wizard gets timestop

    -vigor + share pain makes you a tank

    -crystal shard is your backup damage power until you get disintegration

    skills

    8 points per level so

    max out concentration
    5 knowledge devotion skills
    diplomacy

    spend the rest on important skills like 5 ranks in balance

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Maat Mons's Avatar

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    What you want to do is abuse the Psionic Tattoo Mastery feat from Getting Wired to skip paying xp costs on Psychic Chiurgery. Then you use that to give yourself knowledge of every psionic power that exists. Arguably, this includes the powers created by Spell-to-Power Erudites, so you know every arcane spell of 8th level or lower too.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    On a lower level of optimization than learning every spell and power (but can be done in conjunction with it, prior to when that is available) is to use Linked Power with psychic reformation to have the exact feats and powers you need at your command within a round. And those feats includes Expanded Knowledge and Metamorphic Transfer to access all the (Su) abilities you want from any form you can access through metamorphosis. Especially nice if you're an outsider, since they tend to have lots of really good (Su)s.

    Also, Supernatural Transformation (Psionics)* to boost your ML to your HD, to prevent AoOs when you manifest, and to completely ignore PR and SR (and thus magic immunity). Always nice to have.

    It's also possible to get divine spells as arcane spells through various means, which can then be learned via a convert-spell-to-power erudite.





    *Psionics are explicitly noted to be innate regardless of source, and class-based manifesting is a psi-like ability. If needed, acquire the Magic Mantle to make psi-likes exactly equivalent to spell-likes.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-04-18 at 10:16 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    *Psionics are explicitly noted to be innate regardless of source, and class-based manifesting is a psi-like ability. If needed, acquire the Magic Mantle to make psi-likes exactly equivalent to spell-likes.
    Class based psionics are definitely not a psi-like ability. It kind of defeats the "psi-like" part and the specific separation of psionics from psi-like abilities in the rules. It also doesn't help that if they were a psi-like ability there is an explicit rule that lets them ignore power point costs. There are other rules which refute this reading also such as natural abilities.

    It should also be noted that Magic Mantle refers to the magic/psionic transparency rule, not reclassifying abilities.

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    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Class based psionics are definitely not a psi-like ability. It kind of defeats the "psi-like" part and the specific separation of psionics from psi-like abilities in the rules. It also doesn't help that if they were a psi-like ability there is an explicit rule that lets them ignore power point costs. There are other rules which refute this reading also such as natural abilities.
    Then I must somehow be misreading this:

    "Psi-Like Abilities (Ps): The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures)."

    So how is that not explicitly stating that class-based manifesting is (Ps)?

    Specific vs general. In general, psi-likes ignore pp costs. In specific, the manifesting classes use pp to manifest their powers, the ability of which to do so is a psi-like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    It should also be noted that Magic Mantle refers to the magic/psionic transparency rule, not reclassifying abilities.
    Nope. It says nothing about referring to transparency. What it actually says is:

    "In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical."

    Nothing about transparency. You treat magic and psionics as identical. You treat casting identically to manifesting. You treat powers the same as spells. You treat psi-like abilities the same as spell-like abilities. Obviously there are a few necessary mechanical differences, such as using pp instead of slots, but those are the way the classes function, not the way the powers and spells themselves function.

    You always treat magic and psionics as identical. Full-stop.
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Psychic reformation makes telepaths t1. The difference between t1 and t2 is the ability to adapt your spell output to specific challenges. Psychic Reformation does this. A sorcerer that gains access to it also becomes t1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    A few questions and comments:

    What is going on with your ability scores are you including using magic items to get those scores or do you just have some crazy base buy going on? Being venerable gives you -6 to Dex and Str...

    Unless there was an update I am unaware of Control Body doesn't allow you to do anything to constructs. Humanoids, undead, and outsiders are the only targets of the power even monstrous humanoids and giants are excluded from being effected by Control Body.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Then I must somehow be misreading this:

    "Psi-Like Abilities (Ps): The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures)."

    So how is that not explicitly stating that class-based manifesting is (Ps)?

    Specific vs general. In general, psi-likes ignore pp costs. In specific, the manifesting classes use pp to manifest their powers, the ability of which to do so is a psi-like.
    Look at the structure of the book.

    And there are plenty of references to the differences. If you pay pp then it is not a psi-like ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPH, pg 53
    A power is manifested when a psionic character pays its power point cost. Some psionic creatures automatically manifest powers, called psi-like abilities, without paying a power point cost. Other creatures pay power points to manifest their powers, just as characters do.
    Psionic characters and creatures manifest powers. Whether they cost power points when manifest by a psionic character, or are manifested as psi-like abilities, powersí effects remain the same.
    You either manifest as a psionic power or as a psi-like ability power.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Nope. It says nothing about referring to transparency. What it actually says is:

    "In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical."

    Nothing about transparency. You treat magic and psionics as identical. You treat casting identically to manifesting. You treat powers the same as spells. You treat psi-like abilities the same as spell-like abilities. Obviously there are a few necessary mechanical differences, such as using pp instead of slots, but those are the way the classes function, not the way the powers and spells themselves function.

    You always treat magic and psionics as identical. Full-stop.
    You aren't quoting the entire entry:

    In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical.
    Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics work for both magic and psionics. Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems.
    You don't treat Ps abilities as SLAs. You treat powers as magic. That's all. Powers are still powers. They don't magically become spells just because they are considered magic now. It's the same for Ps and SLAs.
    Last edited by Darg; 2021-04-19 at 02:42 PM.

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Look at the structure of the book.
    Look at what the book is saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    And there are plenty of references to the differences. If you pay pp then it is not a psi-like ability.
    Except I just quoted it. The manifestation of powers is a psi-like ability, as are the manifestations of powers for creatures without class levels. Which means that class-based manifesting is a psi-like ability. You can't argue out of that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    You aren't quoting the entire entry:
    Except that's not how transparency works, and the book can't determine that most people play it that way anyway. Magic Mantle is a step beyond normal transparency as it's defined in the XPH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    You don't treat Ps abilities as SLAs. You treat powers as magic. That's all. Powers are still powers. They don't magically become spells just because they are considered magic now. It's the same for Ps and SLAs.
    That's also not what it says. It says you treat magic and psionics as identical. Specifically. Which means you treat powers identically to spells and psi-like abilities identically to spell-like abilities. Page 6 of the XPH even says:

    PSI-LIKE ABILITIES Many of the races described in this chapter have psi-like abilities, which function much like spell-like abilities. For an explanation of how psi-like abilities work, see page 65.
    If normal psi-like abilities "function much like" spell-like abilities, then under the Magic Mantle, that part is overridden to be "function identically to" spell-like abilities. At least insofar as things like feats, powers, and spells are concerned, anyway. Obviously, they'd have slight differences in the base mechanics, but still.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-04-19 at 03:18 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Tier != Build != Equipment

    Having certain stats isn't going to make you Tier 1.

    Wearing armor to save a few PP and having the ability to shoot a bow isn't going to make you Tier 1.

    Sharing HP with your psicrystal isn't going to make you Tier 1.

    Learning a few powers from a different discipline isn't going to make you Tier 1.



    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Psychic reformation makes telepaths t1. The difference between t1 and t2 is the ability to adapt your spell output to specific challenges. Psychic Reformation does this. A sorcerer that gains access to it also becomes t1.
    ^ Do this, or you're stuck in Tier 2.
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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Darg/Maxi, let's not do the Su Psionics argument here. DMs that hate it (or like it) are going to do so regardless of what a forum thread has to say on the subject, especially one where it's a derail from the main topic.

    OT: As others have said, the line between T2 and T1 is unlimited spells known vs. limited spells known. Psions can functionally get there by learning or being taught more powers than they get from their class, typically via Psychic Chirurgery and/or Psychic Reformation. The other alternative is to be an Erudite, which is a different class but described as a "variant Psion" in its book of origin, so it may be close enough for the OP's purposes. This would be the lowest-op way of playing a "T1 psion" if you don't plan on relying on 9th-level powers, abusing XP cost reduction mechanics, or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    What is going on with your ability scores are you including using magic items to get those scores or do you just have some crazy base buy going on? Being venerable gives you -6 to Dex and Str...


    undead are immune to damage to their physical ability scores

    so, yeah you get -6 to STR and DEX but being undead ''cures'' you of that
    Last edited by Soranar; 2021-04-19 at 05:33 PM.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Tier != Build != Equipment

    Having certain stats isn't going to make you Tier 1.

    Wearing armor to save a few PP and having the ability to shoot a bow isn't going to make you Tier 1.

    Sharing HP with your psicrystal isn't going to make you Tier 1.

    Learning a few powers from a different discipline isn't going to make you Tier 1.





    ^ Do this, or you're stuck in Tier 2.
    Tier 1 absolutely has to do with power and your ability to solve problems

    Take a tier 1 wizard class

    Give 1 INT 4 and thus it can't cast spells

    your wizard is no longer tier 1

    being immune to most forms of attack, having a high AC, having multiple ways to solve encounters, they all work towards your tier. Even the amount of skillpoints you have and what you put them into affects your tier.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    A few questions and comments:

    Unless there was an update I am unaware of Control Body doesn't allow you to do anything to constructs. Humanoids, undead, and outsiders are the only targets of the power even monstrous humanoids and giants are excluded from being effected by Control Body.
    That's going to be up to a DM to decide, maybe I am reading the power wrong. If you take the following sentence:

    You psychokinetically control the actions of any humanoid

    and you compare it to a golem's description:

    This golem has a humanoid body made from clay
    This golem has a humanoid body made from iron
    This golem has a humanoid body made from stone

    you'd still have to bypass a golem's power resistance mind. Still, I find it very useful against undead which are very common. I have to admit the golem problem never came up in a game.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    As long as you have a balanced party, you can manifest powers directly from others' minds for a few psicraft checks and an extra full-round action. So technically, any psionic character is able to manifest any power on their list.

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    As long as you have a balanced party, you can manifest powers directly from others' minds for a few psicraft checks and an extra full-round action. So technically, any psionic character is able to manifest any power on their list.
    Take Leadership (or thrallherd), get minions that can manifest metamorphosis, and wear them as jewelry while they're in accessory form and manifest from their powers known. The full round is baked into having worn them for some time, so you wouldn't even need to have that.

    Alternatively, a bunch of erudite/fiend of possessions.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-04-19 at 07:58 PM.
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    As long as you have a balanced party, you can manifest powers directly from others' minds for a few psicraft checks and an extra full-round action. So technically, any psionic character is able to manifest any power on their list.
    I am now imagining a guy. He has several dozen low level psions following him around. They are ostensibly his students. His psi-crystal is scouting ahead and comes against a potential threat.

    "Ok, I need someone with the Astral Construct power." 3 students step forward. He touches one, and starts using their ability. He sends it forward to deal with the dire wolf on the path.

    Later, several students get injured walking through briars. All of them grab the teacher to use his self healing power.

    Later, there's an issue as one of the boys tricks a girl into letting him use her charm power. He uses it on her, and things get out of hand.

    I see a psi-academy having A LOT of problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    I am now imagining a guy. He has several dozen low level psions following him around. They are ostensibly his students. His psi-crystal is scouting ahead and comes against a potential threat.

    "Ok, I need someone with the Astral Construct power." 3 students step forward. He touches one, and starts using their ability. He sends it forward to deal with the dire wolf on the path.

    Later, several students get injured walking through briars. All of them grab the teacher to use his self healing power.

    Later, there's an issue as one of the boys tricks a girl into letting him use her charm power. He uses it on her, and things get out of hand.

    I see a psi-academy having A LOT of problems.
    Who needs a spellbook when you have students!

    I could make a really sizable villain with that idea

    Thanks guys

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    That's going to be up to a DM to decide, maybe I am reading the power wrong. If you take the following sentence:

    You psychokinetically control the actions of any humanoid

    and you compare it to a golem's description:

    This golem has a humanoid body made from clay
    This golem has a humanoid body made from iron
    This golem has a humanoid body made from stone

    you'd still have to bypass a golem's power resistance mind. Still, I find it very useful against undead which are very common. I have to admit the golem problem never came up in a game.
    Its important to look at the entire sentence and remember the fact that typically when 'humanoid is mentioned in 3.5 it is the humanoid type unless it says otherwise. The fact that it says including undead and outsiders makes me lean more towards them referring to type though I could see an argument otherwise.
    'You psychokinetically control the actions of any humanoid (including undead or outsiders with a humanoid physiology) that is within range and to which you have line of sight.'

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    What is going on with your ability scores are you including using magic items to get those scores or do you just have some crazy base buy going on? Being venerable gives you -6 to Dex and Str...


    undead are immune to damage to their physical ability scores

    so, yeah you get -6 to STR and DEX but being undead ''cures'' you of that
    This is 100% wrong, because damage to your physical ability scores is not remotely the same as the penalty to ability scores you get from aging.
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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    You can always get the +3 to mentals from aging, then swap bodies. There are several ways to do such.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-04-19 at 09:15 PM.
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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    This is 100% wrong, because damage to your physical ability scores is not remotely the same as the penalty to ability scores you get from aging.
    Yep, the penalties you take from aging aren't ability damage, its similar to the bonuses you get from gaining every fourth level or the bonuses and penalties you get from race. It isn't something you can heal.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    This is 100% wrong, because damage to your physical ability scores is not remotely the same as the penalty to ability scores you get from aging.
    well one foolproof way is to assume you became a necropolitan before aging

    but I'm still looking for a FAQ or any rule as written that backs what you claim

    because the way the rules are written is

    these are your stats (say 10)

    your physical stats are reduced by your age category (meaning your stat is still 10-6= 4 , but your stat is still 10)

    being undead makes you Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (meaning your physical stats go back to 10 but the -6 no longer applies).

    aging is like a template, not a permanent modifier

    if it was a permanent modifier you could stack aging bonuses by switching bodies

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Take Leadership (or thrallherd), get minions that can manifest metamorphosis, and wear them as jewelry while they're in accessory form and manifest from their powers known. The full round is baked into having worn them for some time, so you wouldn't even need to have that.

    Alternatively, a bunch of erudite/fiend of possessions.
    The best part is that you can technically manifest powers not from your discipline, as long as it is on your class list.

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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Penalties are not damage. Ability damage is a very specific thing in the rules.
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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    well one foolproof way is to assume you became a necropolitan before aging

    but I'm still looking for a FAQ or any rule as written that backs what you claim

    because the way the rules are written is

    these are your stats (say 10)

    your physical stats are reduced by your age category (meaning your stat is still 10-6= 4 , but your stat is still 10)

    being undead makes you Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (meaning your physical stats go back to 10 but the -6 no longer applies).

    aging is like a template, not a permanent modifier

    if it was a permanent modifier you could stack aging bonuses by switching bodies
    No where are they described as ability damage therefore they can not be effected by things that effect ability damage. They aren't part of a template either, they are part of your race the same as any other benefits or penalties you are getting from your race, hence why when you get to each age category is race dependent.

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Tier != Build != Equipment

    Having certain stats isn't going to make you Tier 1.

    Wearing armor to save a few PP and having the ability to shoot a bow isn't going to make you Tier 1.

    Sharing HP with your psicrystal isn't going to make you Tier 1.

    Learning a few powers from a different discipline isn't going to make you Tier 1.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    Tier 1 absolutely has to do with power and your ability to solve problems

    Take a tier 1 wizard class

    Give 1 INT 4 and thus it can't cast spells

    your wizard is no longer tier 1

    being immune to most forms of attack, having a high AC, having multiple ways to solve encounters, they all work towards your tier. Even the amount of skillpoints you have and what you put them into affects your tier.
    Both of these are sort of true.

    The tier system was never intended to measure builds. It isnít good at that. And certainly it isnít intended to measure intentional self gimping like Int 4 wizards and the like.

    What it was intended to do was describe play at equivalent power levels. With the understanding that play significantly above or below your partyís general optimization mark can shift effective tier, usually by one, occasionally two levels. So if you have a standard generic 4 person party with a healbot cleric and a blaster wizard whose spell book is 25 different ways to do hp damage, and then a comparatively high op sorcerer enters play with polymorph and planar binding and a bunch of other very powerful/flexible spells, he can be regarded as T1, being effectively up shifted by non-equivalent optimization, despite not meeting it definitionally. But if the cleric and wizard got mad and did some homework and upped their optimization game, the sorcerer might be Tier 2 again, because equivalent optimization. Sorcerer the class is always T2. The build didnít change. But all those things Killian discusses could contribute to effective tier in a low op party in which those benefits matter.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2021-04-21 at 09:14 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    I've never heard of the tiers being relative to your other party members before...
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

    Watch me draw and swear at video games.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: tier 1 Psion build... possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    I've never heard of the tiers being relative to your other party members before...
    Then you learned something. It has been there since Tiers were a thing.

    Quoting JaronK from the original Tier post which was reposted here 8 years ago after being rescued from BGMinMax forums where they were born.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Q: So what a minute, how can I use it then? My players all play differently.

    A: First, determine what you'd say is the average optimization and skill level in the group, then make adjustments for people who are noticably different from that. I can't give examples of skill level, but here's an example for optimization. Imagine for a moment that your party has a Cleric with DMM: Persistant Spell, a Fighter with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, a Beguiler with a Mindbender dip and Mindsight, and a traditional Sword and Board Fighter. Now, the first three are pretty optimized, but the fourth is pretty weak. So in that case, what you've actually got is a Tier 1, a Tier 3, a Tier 5, and a Tier 6, with that second Fighter being Tier 6 because he's far less optimized than the rest of the group. However, if your group is instead a healbot Cleric, a Beguiler who hasn't figured out how to use illusions effectively, a Sword and Board Fighter, and a Shock Trooper/Leap Attack Fighter, then the charge based Fighter is the odd one out. Bump him up a Tier... maybe even 2. So now you've got a Tier 1, a Tier 3, a Tier 5, and maybe a Tier 4. Remember, this whole thing is about intra party balance... there's no objective balancing, because each campaign is different.
    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level.

    JaronK
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2021-04-22 at 05:22 PM.

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