Been playing for a few years - still don't understand Warlocks

[Forechosen]

Hey everyone,

So, quite frankly, I just don't get warlocks. Now, before I explain why, I've gotta say that I'm sure I must be missing something, as I've read that so many people play them and thoroughly enjoy them. I understand this has been covered a lot in the past. But having said that, I just can't get to grips with them. Lastly, this is going to be a long post, so apologies in advance.

So from what I understand - they have a very small number of spell slots, which is offset by them always casting their spells at their maximum possible level (up to 5th level spellslots). This leads me to my first issue though. Let's take a level 10 Warlock (because 10 is middle-of-the-road). A level 10 Warlock has two level 5 spellslots. Well, so does a wizard, and a bard, and every other (full) spellcaster. BUT of course, the Warlock regains those spellslots on a short rest, rather than a long one. Well, here's what I don't understand - does that.. matter?

Let's imagine two very different scenarios, one adventuring day with one fight in. And another adventuring day with 6 fights in, with two short rests. Let's say fight-fight [short rest] fight-fight [short rest] fight-fight.

In the first scenario, the Warlock uses both of his spellslots and does a metric tonne of damage - and then is consigned to casting cantrips for the rest of the fight. The Wizard may also use his level 5 spellslots, if he chooses, and do the same damage, but is then left to cast spells from his thirteen remaining spellslots.

Alright, so the second scenario looks more favorable to the warlock. For each fight, if he chooses he can use one of his powerful spellslots. The Wizard, having only two 5th spellslots, has to choose when to use them over the course of all of the six fights. But still, once the Wizard has used those spellslots - he has these thirteen spellslots left - that's (just over) two spellslots per fight, on top of the 5th level ones. Where every one of those spellslots is greater than a cantrip (to a varying degree, obviously, but he's got three 4th level spellslots, for example).

What I'm trying to get at, is that surely, even in a Warlock's extremely favorable scenario. The Wizard (or other fullspellcaster) still comes out on top, doesn't it? I have no idea how tables work in this forum, but I've just randomly listed a comparison of the sort of spell usage you might expect over the course of this adventuring hypothetical day. Does it look like it favors the Warlock that much?

Wizard

First fight - 5th level spellslot. 3rd level spellslot. 1st level spellslot.
Second fight - 4th level spellslot. 1st level spellslot. 3rd level spellslot.
[short rest]
Third Fight - 3rd. 1st. cantrips
Fourth Fight - 5th. 2nd. 1st.
[short rest]
Fifth Fight - 2nd. 4th. cantrips
Sixth Fight - 2nd. 4th. cantrips

Warlock

First fight - 5th level spellslot. cantrips.
Second Fight - 5th level spellslot. cantrips.
[short rest]
Third Fight - 5th level spellslot. cantrips.
Fourth Fight - 5th level spellslot. cantrips.
[short rest]
Fifth Fight - all cantrips
Sixth Fight - two 5th level spellslots. cantrips.

Even if we put the power discrepancy (or not, that's what I'm asking) aside - doesn't the Warlock's fighting day look extremely boring? I know this is clearly subjective, but - one spell a fight, and then cantripping? It doesn't sound too exciting.

Doesn't this discrepancy only grow larger as the respective classes level up? The Warlock ends up with four 5th level spellslots (and he can't upcast these spells higher than 5th level). Plus four Mystic Arcanum spells which are per long rest. The Wizard has twenty-two spellslots. Twenty two! The Wizard does have one fewer 5th level spellslots (three, not four) - but he also has two level 6 and 7 slots (instead of one Mystic Arcanum for that level) - and he can upcast any of his spells to level 9 if he chooses.

And this is considering the Warlocks best adventuring day. I know in our playgroup we rarely, if ever have that many fights in a day. Although I concede, we may have less than usual. But if we lower the number of fights from (a high) six to (a reasonable) four - the Warlock's 'plan' stays identical, whilst the Wizard can now use a whole extra spell-per-fight. In fact, doesn't the Warlocks 'plan' stay identical nomatter the situation? The only situation I can see where the Warlock really, truly shine would be an adventuring day consisting of an ungodly amount of fights, whilst also allowing for many shortrests.

And I know, there are invocations. Invocations are amazing and extremely flavorful, but really - can they make up for the sheer number of spells that other casters get? All of the 'spell' invocations are per long rest. I understand there are powerful combinations, Darkness and Devil's Sight, for example, or making your Eldritch Blast extremely powerful. But it still appears that they would get left behind, compared to other casters, wouldn't they?

I'm trying not to theorycraft too much, just to enough to get an idea. You never know how many fights you're going to have in day after all - it just seems that picking any reasonable number always leaves the Warlocks trailing. Perhaps I'm completely wrong, are the fifth level spellslots that much more valuable than the sheer number of 1-4 spellslots available to other casters? Am I wrong in comparing them to other casters in the first place? It's just - if spells aren't their 'stick' then.. what is? The utility of Eldritch Invocations?

Warlock's flavor is absolutely incredible, I love the sound of the class. But isn't that flavor somewhat hampered by the mechanics? Heck, I think I'd be a little annoyed in the very first fight - casting one spell and then cantripping for the remainder of the fight. Doing that virtually every single fight sounds.. tiresome? It certainly doesn't feel, mechanically, what the class comes across as thematically.

Out of combat, I completely get it, the flavor (and even to some extent the mechanics, with the invocations) is incredible. Am I focusing on the combat too much? Is the Warlock's 'stick' their out of combat potential? Is that where all the fun is?

Apologies for dragging on, I've just been trying to get my head around them for so long. I wanted to make one tonight for a campaign, but after thinking on them (yet again) - I just couldn't. So I thought I'd ask here, what am I missing?

Thanks so much for reading.

[Sigreid]

I'm not fond of warlocks because I'm not down with the fluff. But mechanically:

1. they're the only caster whose main attack cantrip is on par, or nearly on par with the fighter's weapon attacks without depleting resources.
2. Eventually you get 4 spells per rest that are cast or upcast to level 5. That's significant magic power brought to bear.
3. They eventually have 6-9th level spells. Think it's just one and mostly once per day, but still.
4. They eventually get the ability to spend something like a minute and get the benefits of another rest every day.
5. Choose the right invocations and you get a significant number of lower level/utility spells that you can cast or have the effect of without restriction.

[Forechosen]

I'm not fond of warlocks because I'm not down with the fluff. But mechanically:

1. they're the only caster whose main attack cantrip is on par, or nearly on par with the fighter's weapon attacks without depleting resources.
2. Eventually you get 4 spells per rest that are cast or upcast to level 5. That's significant magic power brought to bear.
3. They eventually have 6-9th level spells. Think it's just one and mostly once per day, but still.
4. They eventually get the ability to spend something like a minute and get the benefits of another rest every day.
5. Choose the right invocations and you get a significant number of lower level/utility spells that you can cast or have the effect of without restriction.

1. Granted, Eldritch Blast is a beast of a spell. But - it is only one spell. I can't argue with its power, but it must get boring using it as often as you're expected to?
2. That's kind of my point, other casters get three (instead of four) level 5 spellslots. But they also get a huge number of other spellslots, in what sort of feels like 'in exchange' for Eldritch Blast. Not to mention, they also get the ability to upcast their spells up to level 9 (eventually).
3. Other casters get more 6-9 level spells, only two more, but still.
4 + 5. Again, granted, the utility is incredible. But it's not as if other casters don't have utility. Other classes don't have utility for free but again, is that aspect that much of a bonus?

I suppose if other spellcasters had a few less spellslots, I could see Warlock shining more. Or if Warlocks had a few more. But as it is, they seem to give up so much in exchange for.. Eldritch Blast, and free utility?

[Verble]

You also can't forget the warlock Invocations that grant bonus abilities or at will casting of spells. Also pacts expand range. Casting via spell slot is different from full casters

[Forechosen]

You also can't forget the warlock Invocations that grant bonus abilities or at will casting of spells. Also pacts expand range. Casting via spell slot is different from full casters

The thing is, the 'combat' invocation spells are per long rest - the same as other casters. The others, the at will ones, are fantastic abilities - but do they compare to the sheer number and variety of spells that other casters get?

It's the same with Pacts, they do make a difference. It's just I can't see the difference making up for their lack of spellcasting, in comparison with other casters.

[sophontteks]

1. Granted, Eldritch Blast is a beast of a spell. But - it is only one spell. I can't argue with its power, but it must get boring using it as often as you're expected to?
2. That's kind of my point, other casters get three (instead of four) level 5 spellslots. But they also get a huge number of other spellslots, in what sort of feels like 'in exchange' for Eldritch Blast. Not to mention, they also get the ability to upcast their spells up to level 9 (eventually).
3. Other casters get more 6-9 level spells, only two more, but still.
4 + 5. Again, granted, the utility is incredible. But it's not as if other casters don't have utility. Other classes don't have utility for free but again, is that aspect that much of a bonus?

I suppose if other spellcasters had a few less spellslots, I could see Warlock shining more. Or if Warlocks had a few more. But as it is, they seem to give up so much in exchange for.. Eldritch Blast, and free utility?

Fighter use sword.
Ranger use bow
Warlock use EB

It's pretty much on par with how most classes work. It is their main weapon. But then they also have invocation, full spells, and cool subclass abilities.

They aren't boring at all. But if you want to cast spells all the time, be a wizard. Warlocks are very much their own entity.

[ImproperJustice]

Also missing out on things like:

Pact of Chain: Remote invisible familiar with unlimited range and ability to issue commands w/ your voice or act independently and intelligently.

Pact of Tome: unlimited ritual casting from ALL casting disciplines.

So long as you don’t waste all your invocations on Eldritch Blast Worship, there is at will invisibility, disguise, levitation or super jumping, animal speech ( great w/ familiar above), illusions, and/or many many other interesting options.

I played a high level Fey Chainlock lately and was never bored. Spells were just kind of a thing I did from time to time.

Using my familiar and at will invisibility, and illusions I could freely infiltrate places with ease. Relay data to my allies (complete w/ video and audio as needed), and then generate whatever distraction I wanted to.

[Evaar]

If you’re doing it right, Eldritch Blast isn’t a single decision.

First, you can target as many enemies as you have bolts. So do you focus all on one, or split them up hoping to efficiently finish off some low health enemies?

Also, you have potentially a variety of repositioning options. With Repelling Blast alone, that’s a 10 foot push on each bolt. Grasp or Lance offer more options. Rearranging the battlefield at will makes the class very tactically rewarding.

It’s not the same as Firebolt spam. It’s more engaging even than Sharpshooter’s decision tree, because ultimately that has some pretty clear answers. At-will forced movement allows you to engage with the terrain in a way few classes can match, not to mention any ongoing effects from your own or your team’s spells.

And as others have said - short rest recovery, patron abilities (which trend more towards discrete abilities than just enhancements to your spells, like sorcerer or wizard features), pact boons, and invocations offer a ton of options to liven things up. A single invocation and pact boon combo gets you the ability to cast every ritual in the game. Same thing for becoming the most effective user of the Poisoned condition available to players. And folks build bladelocks with a single weapon in mind, but don’t forget that boon is essentially “with an action summon any weapon you want, and you’re proficient with it (and let’s be real you’re a Hexblade so you can attack with charisma with it too)”

You can absolutely play a warlock to be boring, but that’s not the fault of the class design. The options are there, you just need to take advantage of them to their fullest potential.

[Kane0]

So from what I understand - they have a very small number of spell slots, which is offset by them always casting their spells at their maximum possible level (up to 5th level spellslots). This leads me to my first issue though. Let's take a level 10 Warlock (because 10 is middle-of-the-road). A level 10 Warlock has two level 5 spellslots. Well, so does a wizard, and a bard, and every other (full) spellcaster. BUT of course, the Warlock regains those spellslots on a short rest, rather than a long one. Well, here's what I don't understand - does that.. matter?

-Scenario-

Warlock's flavor is absolutely incredible, I love the sound of the class. But isn't that flavor somewhat hampered by the mechanics? Heck, I think I'd be a little annoyed in the very first fight - casting one spell and then cantripping for the remainder of the fight. Doing that virtually every single fight sounds.. tiresome? It certainly doesn't feel, mechanically, what the class comes across as thematically.

Out of combat, I completely get it, the flavor (and even to some extent the mechanics, with the invocations) is incredible. Am I focusing on the combat too much? Is the Warlock's 'stick' their out of combat potential? Is that where all the fun is?

You're right, full slot casters have more raw oomph when it comes to casting. The warlock isn't a full slot caster. It's a wacky weird caster that progresses spell levels at the same pace. It gives up big number of slots in order to have invocations and other stuff.

The warlock is popular for a few reasons;
- It's a spellcaster that is different to the rest. It's the only short rest caster. It's the only scaling-slot caster. It's novel and different without being bad after the novelty wears off.
- It's a very simple spellcaster at its core. Spells known, relatively short list and a handful of slots of a single level cuts down on analysis paralysis and EB with invocation support is basic and very viable style even if you only ever cast Hex and Fireball. For people that want to step into playing more complicated characters but don't want to play a full caster this is a great introduction and midground.
- It's extremely customizable, the most in the game aside from maybe the Mystic and Artificer. Even compared to casters you have subclass AND pact plus spellcasting AND invocations. You can gish, you can heal, you can spam rituals and at-wills, you can summon, you can blast, you can control, you can buff/debuff, you can sneak, and you can mix and match a handful of these depending on your choices. Even your basic EB can be used to drag those towards you or push them away or slow them down.
- As you stated, the rich flavor

Judging by your post it appears you're looking at the Warlock from a Wizard's point of view. And that's fair, they aren't Wizards. They can cast plenty but they don't cast the same and often won't match up in terms of raw casting potential.
That said, It's worth noting that some specific spells can be cast at-will via invocation (detect magic, disguise self, speak with dead, etc) and that can make up for that lack of casting in some regards.
But they aren't entirely defined by their spellcasting alone like Wizards are.

[thoroughlyS]

Another thing to point out is that 10th level is probably the worst level for warlock. One level later, and they have three 5th-level slots per short rest. Honestly, in my opinion the main thing that makes their casting feel lackluster is how late they get the third slot. (I give it to them at 6th level at my tables.)

[Sigreid]

I'd say to me the most appealing thing about it is the way its spell slots work, while you do have less casting versatility than other caster classes, Because of the way your slots work and recharge there is far less internal debate over whether now, right now is the right time to spend that powerful 5th level slot. What I've observed over many years and several editions is that casters often horde their slots instead of using them when they should because they might need it more later. The warlock is a bit less vulnerable to that. Not immune to it, but less vunlerable.

It is also a solid starter caster letting you dip into a variety of spells without the list being two long and complex and without having to worry so much about the "oh darn, I'm out of spells" phenomenon.

[MustaKrakish]

Giving them spells was a very lazy move IMO. It should have been something like the 3.5 Warlock, but obviously improved. Spells are the band-aid for everything in 5e, and it just makes magic feels less special. It should have been invocations all the way, maybe even replacing invocations every long rest, and of course patron specific invocations. The class feels very half-baked, they all have the same mechanics and signature cantrip but the patrons are vastly different and it just doesn't work in my mind. I especially don't like the fact that an entity can give you powers that they themselves don't have. It's wierd.

[micahaphone]

In combat, think of them as archers, plinking away with good dpr. Repelling Blast can also be really fun. If it's a major fight, I'll use one slot to do some sort of offensive buff / CC, such as Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Greater Invisibility, etc. The second slot is held in reserve for safety, with stuff like Armor of Agathys or Dimension Door.
It's like you're an archer with some arcane skills. There's probably another name for something like that.

[LudicSavant]

Thanks so much for reading.

Great questions, Forechosen! Perhaps I can help out a bit.

Wizard

First fight - 5th level spellslot. 3rd level spellslot. 1st level spellslot.
Second fight - 4th level spellslot. 1st level spellslot. 3rd level spellslot.
[short rest]
Third Fight - 3rd. 1st. cantrips
Fourth Fight - 5th. 2nd. 1st.
[short rest]
Fifth Fight - 2nd. 4th. cantrips
Sixth Fight - 2nd. 4th. cantrips

Warlock

First fight - 5th level spellslot. cantrips.
Second Fight - 5th level spellslot. cantrips.
[short rest]
Third Fight - 5th level spellslot. cantrips.
Fourth Fight - 5th level spellslot. cantrips.
[short rest]
Fifth Fight - all cantrips
Sixth Fight - two 5th level spellslots. cantrips.

I think the oversight here is thinking that when you use up your spell slots, you're reduced to cantrips. You also have invocations and subclass features (some of which are worth as much as high level spells in their own right -- Hurl Through Hell is a straight up Legendary Resistance-piercing boss killer, for example).

In short...

It's just - if spells aren't their 'stick' then.. what is? The utility of Eldritch Invocations?

It's about everything as a whole. You don't "cast 2 spells then cantrip." You have 2 spells, cantrips, invocations, and subclass features.

And this is considering the Warlocks best adventuring day. I know in our playgroup we rarely, if ever have that many fights in a day.

That may describe your playgroup, but remember that the DMG doesn't describe 6 encounters / 2 short rests as a maximum, but as an average.

1. Granted, Eldritch Blast is a beast of a spell. But - it is only one spell. I can't argue with its power, but it must get boring using it as often as you're expected to?

You do not need Eldritch Blast to make a Warlock perform up to snuff. Hexbows are a prime counterexample, able to sling arrows with all the vigor of a Sharpshooter Battle Master and still throw in spell versatility on top of that.

But what Eldritch Blasters and Hexbows have in common is that invocations give you access to good options that don't eat your spell slots. It's the invocations that make an Agonizing, Repelling blaster. This doesn't mean that "Spells aren't their schtick, invocations are." It means that they supplement your spells, kind of taking on the role of those lower level slots the Wizard uses to flesh out their day. So, for example, while you might not have level 1 spell slots, you might have Silent Image at-will.

Out of combat, I completely get it, the flavor (and even to some extent the mechanics, with the invocations) is incredible.

It's not just that either. Warlocks have access to 'the one hour ritual.' That is, casting a long duration spell like Hex, then using a Short Rest to get the slot back, and then still having access to the spell. This is useful not only for setting up a Hex or the like when you brush your teeth in the morning, but it's also useful for solving problems when you're not under a lot of time pressure (as may be the case in some non-combat situations).

[MoiMagnus]

First, I will preface by saying that Mystic Arcanum are quite sad, and one of the multiple reasons why you might want to multiclass out of this class for Tier 3 and 4.
[One of the houserule at our table is that (1) Mystic Arcanum are actual spell slots per long rest, so you can upcast to them and (2) Mystic Arcanum are actual spell known, so when you learn additional spell known you can also take spells of level 6+.]

As such, it's probably better to talk about Tier 1 and 2, because that's IMO the tiers where the class actually works.
+ Warlocks fight like a half-caster, not as a full caster. Compared to the Paladin, you trade a lot of smaller spell slots in exchange for few high spell slots. Your turns are often cantrips (or weapon attacks for Hexblade)? Go talk to the fighter about that.
+ Out of combat is very interesting, assuming the GM is lenient enough about short rests. You are the only character which is willing to burn their high level spell slots to solve "minor concerns" without second thoughts, as you will get them back before the actual combat encounters of the day.

[LudicSavant]

I don’t agree about Mystic Arcanums being so weak that you necessarily wanna multiclass out as soon as you hit tier 3 — high level spells are no joke, with or without the restrictions of Mystic Arcanum. There are also some strong high level features to be had, like Hurl Through Hell.

Summon Fiend is like a whole extra martial character with three PC-level attacks for an hour. Forcecage is the kind of spell that can instantly define an encounter, while Crown of Stars is worth around 14 SP of Quickens from a level 17 sorcerer... when you get it at 13. Foresight just gives you a huge basically-all-day buff. What exactly are you jumping out for that makes these things look bad? It's not like you're going to get better high level spell access by jumping out at tier 3.

The primary restriction of Mystic Arcanum is that you are always casting the same spell in the same slot -- essentially, it's like one of those class features that reads "do X 1/day." This mostly means that you have to be careful to pick spells that are sufficiently versatile that you'll want to cast them basically every day for your Arcanum slots.

[Contrast]

In the first scenario, the Warlock uses both of his spellslots and does a metric tonne of damage - and then is consigned to casting cantrips for the rest of the fight.

Out of interest, how long are your fights typically? In my experience most combats in 5E are between 3 and 5 rounds so 'the rest of the fight' in this scenario is probably only a round or two.

I think you may be slightly over-estimating the utility of extra spell slots in a fight in terms of variety at least. Our wizard casts a concentration spell and is then probably casting defensive spells, randomly slinging out Fireball/some other direct damage or conserving spell slots for Counterspell.

My experience playing a warlock as well was that it was a lot easier decision to unload my spell slots. As a normal caster I'm always worried about trying to preserve my big spells for the day in case there's some big challenge ahead. As a warlock I was much more comfortable just blatting my spells out without too much concern (or for roleplay stuff) as I'm not potentially screwing myself for the whole day.

That all said, there's nothing wrong if the way warlocks play doesn't sound appeal to you - it doesn't necessarily mean you're missing something, you may just have a preference for a different style of play. Spamming EB sound boring? Don't play a warlock (or a martial!). I will say I never really got monks until I tried playing one for a couple of sessions though so if you're ever doing a one shot, give it a spin!

[Forechosen]

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys. Apologies for such a late response, I had to get some sleep - I'll try and reply to most people though! If I don't reply to anybody specifically, it's not because I haven't read the post!

Fighter use sword.
Ranger use bow
Warlock use EB

Mmm, this is what I'm getting from some of these responses. Perhaps comparing them to a full caster was a mistake, and they're more of an extremely reflavored marshal class - with many added 'abilities/spells' - which does actually make them a really very interesting 'marshal class'. I hadn't looked at them this way before, I think I was too hung up on comparing them to full casters.

I played a high level Fey Chainlock lately and was never bored. Spells were just kind of a thing I did from time to time.

That's interesting, as a Fey Chainlock was actually what I was considering before I wrote this post. It is good to read you were never bored.

If youÂ’re doing it right, Eldritch Blast isnÂ’t a single decision.

First, you can target as many enemies as you have bolts. So do you focus all on one, or split them up hoping to efficiently finish off some low health enemies?

Also, you have potentially a variety of repositioning options. With Repelling Blast alone, thatÂ’s a 10 foot push on each bolt. Grasp or Lance offer more options. Rearranging the battlefield at will makes the class very tactically rewarding.

ItÂ’s not the same as Firebolt spam. ItÂ’s more engaging even than SharpshooterÂ’s decision tree, because ultimately that has some pretty clear answers. At-will forced movement allows you to engage with the terrain in a way few classes can match, not to mention any ongoing effects from your own or your teamÂ’s spells.

Again, I'd never thought of this aspect of Eldritch Blast at all. That is considerably more interesting, mechanically than 'I attack with my longsword'. I'd always considered the Eldritch Blast invocations as just 'bonuses' rather than looking at the actual implications they'd have on the entire battlefield tactics.

I'd say to me the most appealing thing about it is the way its spell slots work, while you do have less casting versatility than other caster classes, Because of the way your slots work and recharge there is far less internal debate over whether now, right now is the right time to spend that powerful 5th level slot. What I've observed over many years and several editions is that casters often horde their slots instead of using them when they should because they might need it more later. The warlock is a bit less vulnerable to that. Not immune to it, but less vulnerable.

It is also a solid starter caster letting you dip into a variety of spells without the list being two long and complex and without having to worry so much about the "oh darn, I'm out of spells" phenomenon.

I completely understand this, although I would say that hording spells or not does typically come with experience in the game. I know after a few years of playing now I'm a lot better with 'spell usage' than I was when I first started playing. But you're right, recharging on a short rest does 'free you up' a little bit. I suppose I was worried more about their per-fight casting, as comparing them to full casters, they'd only ever use one or two spells and then cantripping for the remainder of the fight.

But, I do realise now there is a lot more to it than that - what with the invocations and the subclass abilities, you do have more options 'per-fight' than I was initially thinking.

Out of interest, how long are your fights typically? In my experience most combats in 5E are between 3 and 5 rounds so 'the rest of the fight' in this scenario is probably only a round or two.

Maybe this is where the problem is. Our playgroup tends to have much fewer fights per day, but ones that go on longer. In fact, if a fight is appearing to be over too swiftly and easily, our DM will often throw in extra baddies 'coming round the corner' or whatever just to up the ante. It's really hard to give an average though.. as it does vary considerably. But we do enjoy very difficult, edge of your seat fights. I'd say perhaps we have on average two to three fights per day, and of course some fights are shorter than others, but 5+ rounds wouldn't be unusual at all.

So it was from this frame that I was thinking ''sheesh, the first round I cast a spell - that's cool, now what am I going to be doing for the next four or more rounds?''

I'm beginning to think it's a mixture, Warlocks have more going for them than I originally thought, but that also perhaps they're not best suited to our playgroups style of play? At least, if you're looking at them through a 'spellcaster' perspective. I can completely, completely see how they're a massively interesting 'marshal' class. If that makes sense!?

[Merudo]

Hey everyone,
So, quite frankly, I just don't get warlocks.

I expressed a very similar sentiment close to 3 years ago when I first started learning D&D.

Even now, I think Warlocks are in most campaigns the worst of the full spell casters after 5th level. The lack of flexibility on how they allocate their spell slots is just too great an impediment to their strengths.

I'm also unimpressed by Eldritch Blast's damage. Optimized martials have much better DPR than EB, and some full spellcasters also get access to damage that rival EB (Arcana & Death Cleric, Bladesinger Wizard, Sorlock, etc). Eldritch Blaster can have some utility with Repelling Blast / Lance of Lethargy, but that depends heavily on party composition.

It is my belief that the main draw of the Warlock is not its mechanical benefits, but rather it's theme and fluff.

[diplomancer]

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys. Apologies for such a late response, I had to get some sleep - I'll try and reply to most people though! If I don't reply to anybody specifically, it's not because I haven't read the post!



Mmm, this is what I'm getting from some of these responses. Perhaps comparing them to a full caster was a mistake, and they're more of an extremely reflavored marshal class - with many added 'abilities/spells' - which does actually make them a really very interesting 'marshal class'. I hadn't looked at them this way before, I think I was too hung up on comparing them to full casters.



That's interesting, as a Fey Chainlock was actually what I was considering before I wrote this post. It is good to read you were never bored.



Again, I'd never thought of this aspect of Eldritch Blast at all. That is considerably more interesting, mechanically than 'I attack with my longsword'. I'd always considered the Eldritch Blast invocations as just 'bonuses' rather than looking at the actual implications they'd have on the entire battlefield tactics.



I completely understand this, although I would say that hording spells or not does typically come with experience in the game. I know after a few years of playing now I'm a lot better with 'spell usage' than I was when I first started playing. But you're right, recharging on a short rest does 'free you up' a little bit. I suppose I was worried more about their per-fight casting, as comparing them to full casters, they'd only ever use one or two spells and then cantripping for the remainder of the fight.

But, I do realise now there is a lot more to it than that - what with the invocations and the subclass abilities, you do have more options 'per-fight' than I was initially thinking.



Maybe this is where the problem is. Our playgroup tends to have much fewer fights per day, but ones that go on longer. In fact, if a fight is appearing to be over too swiftly and easily, our DM will often throw in extra baddies 'coming round the corner' or whatever just to up the ante. It's really hard to give an average though.. as it does vary considerably. But we do enjoy very difficult, edge of your seat fights. I'd say perhaps we have on average two to three fights per day, and of course some fights are shorter than others, but 5+ rounds wouldn't be unusual at all.

So it was from this frame that I was thinking ''sheesh, the first round I cast a spell - that's cool, now what am I going to be doing for the next four or more rounds?''

I'm beginning to think it's a mixture, Warlocks have more going for them than I originally thought, but that also perhaps they're not best suited to our playgroups style of play? At least, if you're looking at them through a 'spellcaster' perspective. I can completely, completely see how they're a massively interesting 'marshal' class. If that makes sense!?

Yeah, it'a definitely your group playstyle that's not good for Warlocks; long (and few) battles can be pretty rough on any class that's not a fullcaster, specially in higher tiers.

With approximately 6 fights per day of 3-4 rounds each with two SRs, being able to cast one "big gun" spell every battle and supplementing the rest with your improved cantrips puts you pretty much on par with the other casters.

And, as others have mentioned, as long as your DM does not gimp Short Rests by artificially limiting the number you can take between Long Rests, Warlocks really shine on "slow, almost downtime" days. No sane spellcaster is going to use their highest level slot to deal with a relatively unimportant situation if there's any chance of needing it later during the day; but on a slow day where taking a Short Rest is trivial (say, during a long distance travel on a ship), Warlock can easily do that without thinking twice.

[Forechosen]

I expressed a very similar sentiment close to 3 years ago when I first started learning D&D.

Even now, I think Warlocks are in most campaigns the worst of the full spell casters after 5th level. The lack of flexibility on how they allocate their spell slots is just too great an impediment to their strengths.

I'm also unimpressed by Eldritch Blast's damage. Optimized martials have much better DPR than EB, and some full spellcasters also get access to damage that rival EB (Arcana & Death Cleric, Bladesinger Wizard, Sorlock, etc). Eldritch Blaster can have some utility with Repelling Blast / Lance of Lethargy, but that depends heavily on party composition.

It is my belief that the main draw of the Warlock is not its mechanical benefits, but rather it's theme and fluff.

I'm just reading through that thread now.. although it's quite a long thread! It's interesting seeing the different view points though.

Yeah, it'a definitely your group playstyle that's not good for Warlocks; long (and few) battles can be pretty rough on any class that's not a fullcaster, specially in higher tiers.

With approximately 6 fights per day of 3-4 rounds each with two SRs, being able to cast one "big gun" spell every battle and supplementing the rest with your improved cantrips puts you pretty much on par with the other casters.

And, as others have mentioned, as long as your DM does not gimp Short Rests by artificially limiting the number you can take between Long Rests, Warlocks really shine on "slow, almost downtime" days. No sane spellcaster is going to use their highest level slot to deal with a relatively unimportant situation if there's any chance of needing it later during the day; but on a slow day where taking a Short Rest is trivial (say, during a long distance travel on a ship), Warlock can easily do that without thinking twice.

Yeah I can definitely see our playgroup style being a problem in this respect. Although having said that, we only have one full caster in the party at the moment (a druid) - and none of our party feels gimped, or that we're lagging behind the druid. But, we aren't at higher tiers yet - we've only just got to level nine. (The party is a Rogue, a Blood Hunter, a Druid and a Paladin). Perhaps it's because we do a lot of out of combat stuff, so the Druid is using a fair few spellslots for other things than combat - so she's not entering each combat with a zillion free spellslots.

Why do you say it gets worse at higher tiers? Is it because the fullcaster can essentially use all their spellslots over the course of a small number of long fights? Whilst the other classes are doing the 'same-ish thing' (attacking round after round) in the same situation?

Maybe I should talk to my DM about our style, I'm sure she'd be open to changing it. It's just we do really enjoy it, and it feels natural to us. It would be weird changing it up.

[follacchioso]

I've been playing a few warlocks for exactly the same reasons: it seemed such a weak class to me, that I had to try it and figure it out by playing.

Now it is one of my favourite classes. Yes, the spell slot economy is very difficult, but I've learned to save the spell slots for the very important occasions. I usually multi class into bard or sorcerer to add some extra lv1 slots for Bless or other utility spells; but pure warlocks would also work well.

I'm also unimpressed by Eldritch Blast's damage. Optimized martials have much better DPR than EB, and some full spellcasters also get access to damage that rival EB (Arcana & Death Cleric, Bladesinger Wizard, Sorlock, etc). Eldritch Blaster can have some utility with Repelling Blast / Lance of Lethargy, but that depends heavily on party composition.

Remember that Agonizing Blast allows to add the CHA modifier to each of the Eldritch Blast rays. At 11th level, it can be 3d10+15 if you the same target, with more chances to crit. With Hex, this becomes 3d10+15+3d6; or you could spend the slot to summon an undead skeleton archer, and get another 2d4+6 (or 4d4+14 if you use a 4th level slot). Arcana Cleric can add the Wis modifier to any cantrips they know, but Firebolt and all the options they have only hit with one single ray, so at most you will do 3d10+5. I know it doesn't seem impressive, but it sums up on the long run, and it is very reliable.

[Merudo]

Remember that Agonizing Blast allows to add the CHA modifier to each of the Eldritch Blast rays. At 11th level, it can be 3d10+15 if you the same target, with more chances to crit.

Most campaign ends at or below level 11, and at that point spellcasters don't use cantrips, really.

At level 10, the Warlock will do 2d10 + 10 (~21), with an additional 2d6 (~7) when using hex.

A level 10, an Arcana Cleric with a rapier with Green-Flame-Blade and 16 dex & wis, would do 1d8 + 3 + 2d8 + 3 (~19.5). They can pair this up with spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians almost every fight at this level.

At level 10, a Bladesinger Wizard with 20 int and 16 dex using Toll the Dead and a light crossbow would do 2d12 + 1d8 + 3 (~20.5).

At level 10, a Death Cleric twinning a Toll the Dead can do 4d10 (~22).

[Forechosen]

I've been playing a few warlocks for exactly the same reasons: it seemed such a weak class to me, that I had to try it and figure it out by playing.

Now it is one of my favourite classes. Yes, the spell slot economy is very difficult, but I've learned to save the spell slots for the very important occasions. I usually multi class into bard or sorcerer to add some extra lv1 slots for Bless or other utility spells; but pure warlocks would also work well.


Remember that Agonizing Blast allows to add the CHA modifier to each of the Eldritch Blast rays. At 11th level, it can be 3d10+15 if you the same target, with more chances to crit. With Hex, this becomes 3d10+15+3d6; or you could spend the slot to summon an undead skeleton archer, and get another 2d4+6 (or 4d4+14 if you use a 4th level slot). Arcana Cleric can add the Wis modifier to any cantrips they know, but Firebolt and all the options they have only hit with one single ray, so at most you will do 3d10+5. I know it doesn't seem impressive, but it sums up on the long run, and it is very reliable.

May I ask, how come they're one of your favourite classes now? What is it about playing one that has changed your mind?

And lastly, do you think you'd enjoy it any less (or more!) with our playgroup's style of play? With our fewer, yet longer fights per day?

[Selion]

1. Granted, Eldritch Blast is a beast of a spell. But - it is only one spell. I can't argue with its power, but it must get boring using it as often as you're expected to?
2. That's kind of my point, other casters get three (instead of four) level 5 spellslots. But they also get a huge number of other spellslots, in what sort of feels like 'in exchange' for Eldritch Blast. Not to mention, they also get the ability to upcast their spells up to level 9 (eventually).
3. Other casters get more 6-9 level spells, only two more, but still.
4 + 5. Again, granted, the utility is incredible. But it's not as if other casters don't have utility. Other classes don't have utility for free but again, is that aspect that much of a bonus?

I suppose if other spellcasters had a few less spellslots, I could see Warlock shining more. Or if Warlocks had a few more. But as it is, they seem to give up so much in exchange for.. Eldritch Blast, and free utility?

Not every class has the same amount of variety, and warlock surely are in the upper side.
You can change your two per round spells every combat if you want, after all even 1st level spells are upcast automatically, and you have a vast amount of class abilities in the form of invocations.
Bards and wizards have more choices, sure, but definitely i don't see warlock as a boring class.

[OldTrees1]

1) Outside of Spellcasting / Pact Magic, Warlock gets more real features than other full casters and those features come from lists of options (Invocations, 2 subclass systems).

2) Warlock was created in 3E as an At-Will full caster. 5E is not a good adaptation of that concept but recharging on a short rest means that any of your spells is only 1 hour away. So if you dislike Vancian casting, Warlocks are the least bad form of Vancian casting. Although this design breaks down at higher levels due to Mystic Arcanum being a return to Vancian.

Warlocks might be better considered as something between a full caster and a half caster. They can get the high level spells on schedule and cast them the most times per day (consider spells cast out of combat). They get several real features. However in combat they use Eldritch Blast which is like an Archer Fighter except it does 1d10+1d6+Cha damage per hit and does a free 10ft knockback (Hex is an 8h long concentration spell that will last through multiple short rests).

Imagine a Wizard casting Fly 6 times per day at 5th level.

[follacchioso]

May I ask, how come they're one of your favourite classes now? What is it about playing one that has changed your mind?

And lastly, do you think you'd enjoy it any less (or more!) with our playgroup's style of play? With our fewer, yet longer fights per day?

One thing I like is the RP flavour. They are different from Wizards, who were fortunate enough to get an education; and less flamboyant than sorcerers, who gained their power without effort, and use it to burn things. Warlocks are people who made a pact with a powerful creature; sometimes for good causes, and sometimes for evil plans. I like that part of RP, even if it doesn't come up often during a game session, I like playing the part of the normal person who needs to go through great lengths to achieve their objectives.

In terms of game, you have very few options, not only in terms of spells slots but also in terms of spells known, and you need to play wisely in order to get the best of it. You have one key, which is always the same small set of spells, and you need to find a way to fit in all the situations you encounter. Wizards have many keys, so they have many ways to solve a situation, but sometimes too many options is too much and you never end up exploring the full possibilities provided by a specific spell or ability. Sorcerers are similar to Warlock in that they know very few spells; but most of their repertoire is destructive Spells, and they can only afford a small numbers of utilities. Bards are great, they are my other favourite class, but they do not really have any offensive spell and they are focused towards social interactions with other humanoids.

My favourite pact is the Chain, as having an invisible familiar who can spy anywhere else on the plane is great for RP. One of my characters is an old witch lady, who is considered crazy by all the other party members and other NPCs, and constantly mumbles to herself; sometimes, however, in her ramblings she describes things that she could not possibly have seen before, like a dangerous encounter on the road ahead, or the structure of the cave that the party is about to explore. She believes the familiar is her lost niece (which nobody else can see, as it is invisible most of the time), and she thinks the other party members are her lost sons and nephews. You could not do that so well with a Wizard or a Sorcerer, or a Bard.

[diplomancer]

Levels 9 and 10 are, indeed, the worst levels for a Warlock, when they substantially fall behind other full casters, assuming two short rests a day. Level 10, in particular, is painful, "regular" full casters get the equivalent of 64 spell points, while Warlocks get 42; even if they had 3 warlock spell slots, they'd still be behind, but barely noticeable (63 spell points).

So, though I do believe designers "dropped the ball" on that (warlocks should get thier third slot at least by 10th, maybe by 9th), still, it's only two levels out of 20; for that matter, in tier 4, they are consistently ahead of all casters (except Wizards, but then it gets impossible to make those comparisons once Wizards get infinite 1st and 2nd level slots for 2 particular spells).

Most campaign ends at or below level 11, and at that point spellcasters don't use cantrips, really.

At level 10, the Warlock will do 2d10 + 10 (~21), with an additional 2d6 (~7) when using hex.

A level 10, an Arcana Cleric with a rapier with Green-Flame-Blade and 16 dex & wis, would do 1d8 + 3 + 2d8 + 3 (~19.5). They can pair this up with spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians almost every fight at this level.

At level 10, a Bladesinger Wizard with 20 int and 16 dex using Toll the Dead and a light crossbow would do 2d12 + 1d8 + 3 (~20.5).

At level 10, a Death Cleric twinning a Toll the Dead can do 4d10 (~22).

You are not factoring the to-hit chance on those calculations, nor the fact that the Arcana Cleric is in melee, or the fact that twinned damage is pretty much always worse than single target damage, or the fact that it will not be that simple to twin Toll the Dead (you need two enemies within 5' of each other, there will be MANY turns where that won't happen), or even the fact that Death Clerics are not a PC class.

You mentioned that "Arcana Clerics can pair this up with spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians almost every fight at this level"; well, Warlocks go one better, they can have one powerful summon pretty much every fight at this level, to add to their already superior DPR.

[Forechosen]

1) Outside of Spellcasting / Pact Magic, Warlock gets more real features than other full casters and those features come from lists of options (Invocations, 2 subclass systems).

2) Warlock was created in 3E as an At-Will full caster. 5E is not a good adaptation of that concept but recharging on a short rest means that any of your spells is only 1 hour away. So if you dislike Vancian casting, Warlocks are the least bad form of Vancian casting. Although this design breaks down at higher levels due to Mystic Arcanum being a return to Vancian.

Warlocks might be better considered as something between a full caster and a half caster. They can get the high level spells on schedule and cast them the most times per day (consider spells cast out of combat). They get several real features. However in combat they use Eldritch Blast which is like an Archer Fighter except it does 1d10+1d6+Cha damage per hit and does a free 10ft knockback (Hex is an 8h long concentration spell that will last through multiple short rests).

Imagine a Wizard casting Fly 6 times per day at 5th level.

Ah I never played 3.5e - the only experience I had before 5e was the Baldur's Gate + Icewind Dale PC games (which don't include the Warlock). I've never heard the word 'Vancian' before, I take it it means 'traditional spellcasting'? Where did that term come from?

It is definitely the 'in combat' aspect that worried me with Warlocks, as out of combat I can absolutely see they'd be amazingly good fun. And it's not even the damage potential, as Eldritch Blast is so good - rather the monotony of using it so much. Especially as our group tends to have fewer, yet longer fights during each adventuring day than a typical playgroup. Although, imagining the Warlock as no different than a martial character 'with some added spells and options' does make the whole class seem a lot more appealing.

It's funny you've mentioned Fly, as the character I'm considering is going to be a Fairy from the new UA, regardless of which class I end up picking!

One thing I like is the RP flavour. They are different from Wizards, who were fortunate enough to get an education; and less flamboyant than sorcerers, who gained their power without effort, and use it to burn things. Warlocks are people who made a pact with a powerful creature; sometimes for good causes, and sometimes for evil plans. I like that part of RP, even if it doesn't come up often during a game session, I like playing the part of the normal person who needs to go through great lengths to achieve their objectives.

In terms of game, you have very few options, not only in terms of spells slots but also in terms of spells known, and you need to play wisely in order to get the best of it. You have one key, which is always the same small set of spells, and you need to find a way to fit in all the situations you encounter. Wizards have many keys, so they have many ways to solve a situation, but sometimes too many options is too much and you never end up exploring the full possibilities provided by a specific spell or ability. Sorcerers are similar to Warlock in that they know very few spells; but most of their repertoire is destructive Spells, and they can only afford a small numbers of utilities. Bards are great, they are my other favourite class, but they do not really have any offensive spell and they are focused towards social interactions with other humanoids.

My favourite pact is the Chain, as having an invisible familiar who can spy anywhere else on the plane is great for RP. One of my characters is an old witch lady, who is considered crazy by all the other party members and other NPCs, and constantly mumbles to herself; sometimes, however, in her ramblings she describes things that she could not possibly have seen before, like a dangerous encounter on the road ahead, or the structure of the cave that the party is about to explore. She believes the familiar is her lost niece (which nobody else can see, as it is invisible most of the time), and she thinks the other party members are her lost sons and nephews. You could not do that so well with a Wizard or a Sorcerer, or a Bard.

Ah see yeah I completely get the RP and flavor side of things. As I said just above, it was really the combat situations that bothered me. As you've stated, regardless of the amount of options you can choose from - you're not left with that many options you can actually use. Especially if you're choosing passive invocations (such as Devil's Sight).

I've got to say I am starting to see the Warlock as more of a massively reflavored martial, with lots of added (and interesting!) bonuses - rather than a spellcaster in the typical sense. At least, I do believe comparing them to other full spellcasters seems like it was a bit of a mistake. It's also funny you mentioned Bard, as that was the other class I was considering for this character.

Lastly, your character sounds amazing, I'm already getting a picture in my head

[freakybeak]

It's a different playstyle to your regular full caster. Your goal in most fights should be to cast one or two fight winning spells (usually the first one being a concentration spell of some sort ie. hypnotic pattern, shadow of moil, a summoning spell etc) and then supplement that with VERY competitive damage per round using little to no resources (be it hexblade melee attacking or eldricht blasting).

Because of that, the spell selection is usually fairly straight forward compared to other casters. The less obvious result of this is that apart from your 4-5 go to combat spells you are actually free to take on some relatively situational or niche spells because your in-combat choices are usually accounted for. It's also a lot easier to use some of those utility spells in unique ways knowing you get them back on a short rest. Accidentally get separated from the party's equipment and can't easily get back to it? No problem, dimension door in and out to grab it and have your party get started on lunch so you can get your spell slots back!

Tasha's Genie patron also adds a lot to the table through the synergy with pact of the chain. Allowing you to rest once per day during travel time inside a small object which can be carried by a potentially invisible familiar is no joke! I'd wager that in most parties that probably doubles the amount of short rests you get in a day...