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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    He was the one I kind of questioned. He copies them but does he understand them*? I know I have seen some panels where he mentions that he doesn't even know what the various moves are called and I believe that caused an issue because he doesn't know that some moves are the counter to other moves. For him it's "that kick I saw Iron Fist use" or "that move Cap used to throw me out a window". Obviously he's a very highly capable combatant, but it just feels a little off (to me) putting him on a list of martial artists since he arguably might not be one. He doesn't really train, right? He just copies what he sees. It seems like if you say a certain band is the best in the world and the second best band is a cover band that doesn't have any original material. To me, anyway.

    *But does that matter?
    Due to a combination of his own natural talent for mimicry and a Serum created but never used by Nazi Germany's Super Soldier Program, Taskmaster can instinctively analyze any movements he sees clearly, in-person on in recorded footage, and instantly know not only how to imitate it but also how to counter it.

    ne he has absobserved enough of a person's movements, he can predict their behavior on instinct.

    How much is enough varies from person to person, however.

    Once he sees enough of you in action, he doesn't just know how to perfectly imitate your moves, he knows how to beat you and probably has a move in his arsenal that works as a counter even if he doesn't know what exactly it's called.

    Of course, he also periodically forgets everything that ins't immediately relevant or necessary for combat or survival so theoretically if you can drag the fight out long enough he'll forget why you're fighting and wander off.

    Finesse has the exact same powers and weakness(she might be his daughter) though the memory problem hasn't become an issue yet last I heard.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    New teaser trailer:

    If Simu Liu doesnt have a copious amount of sneak attack, I will be sorely disappointed.
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    "Other people also have it bad" is not a good argument for the status quo. It's just an argument that more people need help.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    RE: Gallowglass, Cikomyr2
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    So, just to be clear, the problem is that he is a white outsider who is better than the locals and not that he is an outsider who is better than the locals?

    You guys know you are endorsing treating characters that are doing the same things differently based on their race, right?

    You guys might want to seriously reconsider some things.
    Not really. The entire point of something being Problematic is the cultural context of the thing. It's not outright bigotry, it's problematic. It walks a fine line between a history of outright bigotry of old stories and old tropes of white European cultural supremacy and modern storytelling sensibilities.

    Now, the criticism is not aimed a the quality of the execution of walking the fine line; but at the intent. The creators of the show decided to go the Mighty Whitey Story route, and no matter the amount of rationalisation or built-it justification, they still decided to go the Mighty Whitey Route to appeal to certain cultural sensibilities that are best left to die off.
    Last edited by Cikomyr2; 2021-04-19 at 08:03 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Due to a combination of his own natural talent for mimicry and a Serum created but never used by Nazi Germany's Super Soldier Program, Taskmaster can instinctively analyze any movements he sees clearly, in-person on in recorded footage, and instantly know not only how to imitate it but also how to counter it.

    ne he has absobserved enough of a person's movements, he can predict their behavior on instinct.
    Yeah I've read the story of how he got his powers. Good story, mildly tragic with the whole memory thing and his wife essentially being his handler with Fury. I guess I didn't pick up that he also picks up how to counter the moves and predict behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Not really. The entire point of something being Problematic is the cultural context of the thing. It's not outright bigotry, it's problematic. It walks a fine line between a history of outright bigotry of old stories and old tropes of white European cultural supremacy and modern storytelling sensibilities.
    The entire point of something being "problematic" is for people to attack it for vague and nebulous reasons. It's a nonsense phrase like "let's unpack this". Speaking of...
    Now, the criticism is not aimed a the quality of the execution of walking the fine line; but at the intent. The creators of the show decided to go the Mighty Whitey Story route, and no matter the amount of rationalisation or built-it justification, they still decided to go the Mighty Whitey Route to appeal to certain cultural sensibilities that are best left to die off.
    Let's unpack this. On the one hand you say: "the criticism is not aimed a the quality of the execution of walking the fine line; but at the intent", and then immediately say: "no matter the amount of rationalisation or built-it justification". So which is it? You want to judge based on intent, not execution, then say that no intent would be acceptable. So you really don't want to judge on intent. The intent is, hopefully, to make a reasonably faithful adaptation, which will mean making Danny Rand white. Let's all go storm the walls on social media because Marvel had the gall to not change a character's race in an adaptation.

    And to bring this back around to my point, you have no problem with a character engaging in what you would no doubt call cultural appropriation so long as they aren't white. Either cultural appropriation is wrong or it's not. You're doing a whole lot of mental gymnastics to ultimately say "it's okay if they aren't white" while trying to not make it seem like you are totally fine with different standards based on race. Even your choice of words betrays your feelings. "Mighty Whitey"? Talk about problematic.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    There is literally nothing in the world to which the phrase "either this is, or it isn't" actually applies. It's the Spherical Cow that engineers joke about - context is always, always important.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Ranking in terms of pure martial arts skill, not including super powers or chi manipulation, the top fifteen, to my knowledge, is.

    Shang-Chi.
    Hercules.
    Iron Fist.
    Fat Cobra.
    Sun Wukong.
    Wolverine.
    Stick.
    Taskmaster.
    Black Panther.
    Captain America.
    Daredevil.
    The Kingpin.
    Echo.
    Spider-Man.
    Finesse
    Also meant to ask, where's Karnak?

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    Also meant to ask, where's Karnak?
    Karnak would only place if "instinctively knows how to break things" counted as martial arts.

    In terms of pure skill, he's one of the thousands of people who is good but doesn't place in the top 15 worldwide.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Guys humans relations are not a problem to be solved like it some form of game.

    It is not a game.

    Instead is about being kind to each other not cruel, also other things such as to not be hypocritical in a specific way where you treat other people as ends instead of people / subjects, to not be a snob, to not betray one another, and to have so much hatred of human kind which is a different form of otherizing each other. [yes these 5 things are more or less a list from some philosopher who has written about this stuff.]

    -----

    Sometimes art should not be made if doing so reinforces negative things, yet there is a tension here for I am of the opinion art should be made in general, it is just you need to be mindful when you make art for part of making excellent art is literally context.

    If your brushstroke does not help choose a different type of brush or paint a different thing, we humans and we as a society have the ability to create the world a new with our new actions we are not just imprisoned by what came before.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Guys humans relations are not a problem to be solved like it some form of game.

    It is not a game.

    Instead is about being kind to each other not cruel, also other things such as to not be hypocritical in a specific way where you treat other people as ends instead of people / subjects, to not be a snob, to not betray one another, and to have so much hatred of human kind which is a different form of otherizing each other. [yes these 5 things are more or less a list from some philosopher who has written about this stuff.]
    I just want to say before I respond to the rest that I applaud your efforts Ramza00. For myself, I just get tired of the mental gymnastics of people trying to hold illogical positions, especially when it is the same root position as the one they claim to fight. I sometimes go too far in responding. As much as I complain offline about the absurdity of things like the Twitterverse and people who engage in it to get their dopamine hits, I very likely do the same thing on a lesser scale in some of my responses.
    Sometimes art should not be made if doing so reinforces negative things, yet there is a tension here for I am of the opinion art should be made in general, it is just you need to be mindful when you make art for part of making excellent art is literally context.
    While I agree that it would be better if people didn't create art that enforced negative things, the issue will always come down to who gets to decide what that means. For that reason, among others, I oppose censorship. I also oppose trying to change and destroy the past based on the whims of the present.

    Along a long enough time line, context ceases to matter. Eventually anyone who really cared is long dead and all you have is the work itself and maybe some anecdotes about it's history that could help you win on Jeopardy one day.
    If your brushstroke does not help choose a different type of brush or paint a different thing, we humans and we as a society have the ability to create the world a new with our new actions we are not just imprisoned by what came before.
    Not being trapped by the past, what a wonderful world that would be. (Being serious, that's not sarcasm).

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    Not being trapped by the past, what a wonderful world that would be. (Being serious, that's not sarcasm).
    The answer to Hauntology*, the answer to "trace" that is so horrible we are haunted by it, is merely to act and draw a different picture. Only presence can deal with absence, yet absence will always be with us even when we are present.

    Also the other answer to Hauntology is "Kill James Bond!" *

    *Someone will get the reference but it is a segue.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    As already commented I'm all for more martial arts epics in the world. As a huge fan of the original 'Master of Kung FU' I hope we do get plenty of over-the-top pulp fiction spy shennagans with M.I.6 (the inclusion of Razor fist gives me hope for that)

    Shang-Chi.
    Hercules.
    Iron Fist.
    Fat Cobra.
    Sun Wukong.
    Wolverine.
    Stick.
    Taskmaster.
    Black Panther.
    Captain America.
    Daredevil.
    The Kingpin.
    Echo.
    Spider-Man.
    Finesse
    What about the other Immortal weapons and the rest of the Chaste ?
    All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    Let's just agree that Iron Fist was a bad show, and any debates around whether or not its problematic elements — legitimate or not — are moot.

    I only brought it up for the purpose of casting Shang-chi in a positive light.
    I'm on board with this. It was....just boring. And the main character was kind of obnoxious.

    This looks at least a good bit more fun. I know pretty much nothing about the comics behind it, but the trailer at least made it look like an enjoyable romp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    Marvel created Iron Fist as a white blonde man who gets thrown into the Asian centric world of K'un L'un and becomes the great white savior, beating out all his Asian competitors, turning them into bad guys. Why? Because Danny Rand (our white blonde hero) is special.
    Literally every culture to ever exist tells these stories. Chap goes out, sees all kinds of strange and wondrous things, learns from them, melding the new with the old, has heroic adventures, and returns changed. It's sort of the hero's journey.

    Sure, there are some stories that are told terribly, but the basic framework is just that. What matters is what you hang on it.

    Naw, Iron Fist sucked because it revolved around a guy who was whiny despite having life pretty good, all things considered, and not nearly enough actual action/not very good action. It's like how they used to mess up the Hulk pre-Avengers. Nobody wants to go to a movie titled the Hulk to watch a dude angst about not being the Hulk. We want him to turn green and smash things. That's the whole point, get to it. If you're doing a martial arts show, throw the crazy martial arts at us.

    Here's hopin' this attempt doesn't hold back on that.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not a Last Samurai situation where the White Guy shows up and just takes over and is inexplicably good at being Asian.
    Wanted to respond to this. In Japan, The Last Samurai was seen as a story where a white guy realises that Japanese ways are superior to his own - no one seemed to think it was a positive depiction of white people, if anything many seemed to think it was too harsh on them (arguing that real samurai didn't deserve that level of respect). The biggest race-related topic was that all the Japanese characters were portrayed by Japanese actors (rather than Chinese/Korean/American ones) and they were given significant input on the script, which is still very rare in Hollywood and lead it to be seen as one of the least racist films Hollywood had ever produced. Granted, it helps that Japanese audiences understood that "Samurai" can be plural, and that Tom Cruise is supposed to be the perspective character rather than the title character.

    Likewise, I know Chinese people who are really frustrated at the "inscrutable Oriental" stereotype, where only people who look Asian are capable of learning kung fu. Especially since this directly harms all the traditions that are dying out and won't survive unless they can find fresh blood.

    "Mighty Whitey" is something that's more likely to annoy white people, or people who grew up in majority-white places. Asian-Americans want representation in their own country's media, because it affects them directly. Someone watching that media who was born and raised in Korea etc. doesn't really have a stake in that, and may even prefer a white character to a "Korean" who talks in an American accent and dresses in Chinese clothing.

    tl;dr - Be very careful about assuming what people in other cultures find offensive. Remember that Japan hated Avatar: The Last Airbender and loved the live-action Ghost in the Shell movie.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2021-04-20 at 01:29 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    I think part of the reason for them doing Shang-Chi, who in the comics is a decent C-List character, is because the netflix take on Iron Fist flopped so hard. Shang-Chi is a bit of an apology, the Martial Arts Epic that Iron Fist should have been, with a character who is less inherently problematic.
    All of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Not really.

    You say that Iron Fist is problematic becuase he has a problematic origin.

    But in the many years since then, his origin story hs been revised into something much less problematic. Modern Iron Fist stories are as I've described.

    Likewise, Luke Cage's origin was problematic. He was a Blaxsplotation character, a white man's stereotype of what a young African American would consider a "real" man. But since then he's been reimagined as a character with much more depth and complexity.
    The false equivalency stems from the fact that one of these concepts is much more readily redeemable than the other. You can hand Luke Cage (or T'Challa for that matter) to black creators, and give them a decent platform for giving voice to the black experience and issues that 1960s/70s Stan Lee was in a poor position to properly articulate himself. And this is exactly what Marvel (both main MCU and Netflix) did. You cannot do the same by handing Danny Rand to an Asian one, thus Danny is best sidelined in favor of a different character - like Shang Chi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Side note, I wonder if Trevor is going to show up in a cameo?
    Given the short film "All Hail The King" (bonus on the Dark World bluray, but you can find it online with a quick google) it's a definite possibility. In that movie, an agent of the Ten Rings breaks Trevor out of prison to deliver him to the real Mandarin personally. No doubt we'll find out how Aldrich Killian found out about their organization to steal its moniker for his own plan in IM3.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-04-20 at 12:27 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    Wanted to respond to this. In Japan, The Last Samurai was seen as a story where a white guy realises that Japanese ways are superior to his own - no one seemed to think it was a positive depiction of white people, if anything many seemed to think it was too harsh on them (arguing that real samurai didn't deserve that level of respect). The biggest race-related topic was that all the Japanese characters were portrayed by Japanese actors (rather than Chinese/Korean/American ones) and they were given significant input on the script, which is still very rare in Hollywood and lead it to be seen as one of the least racist films Hollywood had ever produced. Granted, it helps that Japanese audiences understood that "Samurai" can be plural, and that Tom Cruise is supposed to be the perspective character rather than the title character.

    tl;dr - Be very careful about assuming what people in other cultures find offensive. Remember that Japan hated Avatar: The Last Airbender and loved the live-action Ghost in the Shell movie.
    So I am going to respond to this, but understand I am about to demonstrate it is complicated and we need to remember it is complicated for doing this from vulnerability allows us to be more generous.

    I have not seen The Last Samurai, but I have heard other people have opinions about it and whether they are comfortable with it. But if I understand correctly it affirms a “trace” at the start of the movie, only to contradict the “trace” throughout the movie and thus inverting the values of the original “trace.”

    The white protagonist character, is “shorthand” for we should emphasize from his perspective and see another persons culture from his eyes. This in turn affirms his culture as valid and a form of “just.” Only to subvert that later on in the movie.

    ——————

    My point here is that subversion, satire, and a couple other different techniques whose names I am forgetting... they need a firm image, an image created by previous cultural products, aka traces and shorthands, in order to be successful as a starting point. It is the raw clay you are then subverting and telling a different story. But in the process you are telling two stories, A and not A. You are reaffirming both of them in the mind of the viewer / reader with your text. You are not telling story C, a different story, you are prioritizing A and not A.

    Thus the language “least racist films Hollywood had ever produced” is not very helpful for reality does not work that way, it is confounding you where you are thinking you are doing something but you are still recreating the situation.

    There is a good Ursula K Le Guin quote about this from one of her stories.

    To oppose something is to maintain it.
    They say here “all roads lead to Mishnory.” To be sure, if you turn your back on Mishnory and walk away from it, you are still on the Mishnory road. To oppose vulgarity is inevitably to be vulgar. You must go somewhere else; you must have another goal; then you walk a different road.
    Chapter 11 “Soliloquies in Mishnory” (p. 151)
    To be an atheist is to maintain God. His existence or his nonexistence, it amounts to much the same, on the plane of proof. Thus proof is a word not often used among the Handdarata, who have chosen not to treat God as a fact, subject either to proof or to belief: and they have broken the circle, and go free.
    To learn which questions are unanswerable, and not to answer them: this skill is most needful in times of stress and darkness.
    Chapter 11 “Soliloquies in Mishnory” (p. 151)
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-04-20 at 01:19 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Re: The 10 Rings
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    I don't know much about The Mandarin in comics, except that he's some sort of Yellow-Peril coded mad scientist wizard who fights Iron Man.

    In the MCU, The 10 Rings was the group that initially kidnapped Tony Stark. Later, in Iron Man 3, AIM was using them as a scapegoat, with Trevor Slatterly playing "The Mandarin" to take credit for attacks.
    In "All Hail the King", he got kidnapped by what as implied to be agents of the REAL Mandarin.

    All this adds up to a giant pile of nothing as far as the nature of the villain or his followers in this film. All we know is that he exists, has followers, and has been operating for some time, none of which is especially revealing insights.


    We know that at some point some of his followers apparently had the idea to kidnap Tony Stark and force him to build them weapons, but that whole operation was pretty inept, so I kind of doubt that they will associate that with him directly.
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Re: The 10 Rings
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    We know that at some point some of his followers apparently had the idea to kidnap Tony Stark and force him to build them weapons, but that whole operation was pretty inept, so I kind of doubt that they will associate that with him directly.
    Wasn’t there a comment in one of the Iron Man movies that the Ten Ring cells didn’t interact with each other much? So there is precedent for them to be acting independently.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Wasn’t there a comment in one of the Iron Man movies that the Ten Ring cells didn’t interact with each other much? So there is precedent for them to be acting independently.
    Maybe? I don't know. I doubt the makers of this film are going to feel themselves at all constrained by what was shown in Iron Man.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Maybe? I don't know. I doubt the makers of this film are going to feel themselves at all constrained by what was shown in Iron Man.
    I feel we are going to get lots of changes with Iron Man 1, 3, and the MCU short All Hail the King, plus probably other things I am forgetting. For example the 10 rings in the Iron Man movies and Shang Chi have different symbols / glyphs. Those were Mongolian symbols almost 10 years ago, now they are using China symbols, except not modern China script. They are specifically using Seal Script which is over 2000 years old and there are like 5 different main families with Seal, Clerical, Cursive, Running and Regular Script (also known as Standard Script)

    Likewise I expect lots of changes from the comics. The mandarin is barely used anymore with only like 2 story arcs since the movies and even then he is a rare villain compared to other mainstream comics. Furthermore they are blending at least 2 other comic characters with him based off the trailer, and also they are updating images and aesthetics.

    I have not read this but I think they are going to use a 2015 Secret Wars / Battleworld miniseries called “ Master of Kung Fu “ vol 2 and since this is Secret Wars it is an alternate universe / recreated reality and to my understanding this 2015 miniseries has alternate lore for the Clan of the 10 rings.

    —————

    Lore always changes, and if we zoom out we see this, and it is especially going to change with the comics and the MCU.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-04-20 at 03:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I feel we are going to get lots of changes with Iron Man 1, 3, and the MCU short All Hail the King, plus probably other things I am forgetting. For example the 10 rings in the Iron Man movies and Shang Chi have different symbols / glyphs. Those were Mongolian symbols almost 10 years ago, now they are using China symbols, except not modern China script. They are specifically using Seal Script which is over 2000 years old and there are like 5 different main families with Seal, Clerical, Cursive, Running and Regular Script (also known as Standard Script)

    Likewise I expect lots of changes from the comics. The mandarin is barely used anymore with only like 2 story arcs since the movies and even then he is a rare villain compared to other mainstream comics. Furthermore they are blending at least 2 other comic characters with him based off the trailer, and also they are updating images and aesthetics.

    I have not read this but I think they are going to use a 2015 Secret Wars / Battleworld miniseries called “ Master of Kung Fu “ vol 2 and since this is Secret Wars it is an alternate universe / recreated reality and to my understanding this 2015 miniseries has alternate lore for the Clan of the 10 rings.

    —————

    Lore always changes, and if we zoom out we see this, and it is especially going to change with the comics and the MCU.
    Organisations can change a lot over 10 years.

    Especially these 10 years.

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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
    Wasn’t there a comment in one of the Iron Man movies that the Ten Ring cells didn’t interact with each other much?
    I don't recall hearing a comment along those lines. As best as I can recall, the Ten Rings was only mentioned once by name, by Stark's fellow captive in the first movie.

    That said, it might well have been mentioned in Iron Man 3, since I've never been able to force myself to watch that one again.

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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Plenty of terrorist groups (and for that matter, non-terrorist groups) have named themselves after very old, semi-fabled organizations before, especially ones that are not generally known to still exist. The idea that a group of people was calling themselves The Ten Rings while the real Ten Rings was staying quiet and secret doesn't really need much nudging, nor does the idea that The Mandarian was named after a similar figure that the bad guy of IM3 thought didn't exist any more.
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    There is a rumor that this movie, or at least part of it, will be taking place during the Blip. This could also help to explain why the real Mandarin was laying low in IM3 and what caused him to become more prominent now. Time will tell if that ends up being the case.

    As for the Ten Rings, their logo was indeed present in both IM1 and IM3. but most likely co-opted by a lesser organization rather than being even a legitimate independent cell.

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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Honestly, the part about shang chi that bugs me isnt an objection about the choice, but more the slight cringe that marvel was clearly looking for a more diverse lineup of characters to work with, and someone who is c list, MAYBE b list, was the best they could come up with for an asian headliner. Meaning there just werent any major characters in the marvel lineup they could use without rewriting an existing character. (Hey, did you know that hercules was actually japanese?! Tune in next week!) But seriously though, we all have seen the outrage any time marvel casts a character as another race. Honestly I LIKED michael clark duncan as kingpin. That dude was physically built for the role, and did a good job of being the kingpin, but even so, it was a little jarring to see the big beefy white dude replaced by a big beefy black guy, no matter how awesome. Of course, im honestly fond of most of the casting in that film even if the film itself was kinda meh.

    Digression aside, yeah, kinda sucks they had to go so deep into the depths of marvels lineup to find a main character. But thats what happens when 90% of your biggest properties were created in the 50s/60s or whatever. Nobody really wanted to taste the rainbow and stuck with what worked for the time. White dudes with minorities in subordinate roles (heya pie face! Hal says hello!) I GUESS we can have a woman, maybe two, in main-ish roles, but mostly wives and girlfriends only. /nod Also, keep the fridge handy so we can motivate the real heroes.
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Honestly, the part about shang chi that bugs me isnt an objection about the choice, but more the slight cringe that marvel was clearly looking for a more diverse lineup of characters to work with, and someone who is c list, MAYBE b list, was the best they could come up with for an asian headliner. Meaning there just werent any major characters in the marvel lineup they could use without rewriting an existing character. (Hey, did you know that hercules was actually japanese?! Tune in next week!) But seriously though, we all have seen the outrage any time marvel casts a character as another race. Honestly I LIKED michael clark duncan as kingpin. That dude was physically built for the role, and did a good job of being the kingpin, but even so, it was a little jarring to see the big beefy white dude replaced by a big beefy black guy, no matter how awesome. Of course, im honestly fond of most of the casting in that film even if the film itself was kinda meh.

    Digression aside, yeah, kinda sucks they had to go so deep into the depths of marvels lineup to find a main character. But thats what happens when 90% of your biggest properties were created in the 50s/60s or whatever. Nobody really wanted to taste the rainbow and stuck with what worked for the time. White dudes with minorities in subordinate roles (heya pie face! Hal says hello!) I GUESS we can have a woman, maybe two, in main-ish roles, but mostly wives and girlfriends only. /nod Also, keep the fridge handy so we can motivate the real heroes.
    I mean, they could have instead established the Asian super heroes groups.
    Jubilee is an X-Men so can't have her yet.

    There is Excalibur, she can dissect (and reassemble) stuff after being attacked by a Skrull weapon. They made her religion part of her but not overt (she is Muslim doesn't preach about it in comics).

    Cybermancer is a cybernetics genius. Her suit is similar to Iron Man in that it can fly, but she is good at hacking. Unlike Iron Man, she is part of Suit.

    Komodo is similar to The Lizard from Spiderman (she worked with Connors), but they can change her origin. She can transform into a lizard-like creature with an accelerated healing factor and razor-sharp claws. Unlike Connors who has no control over The Lizard, Kusuma has full control and uses her mutation to become a superhero.
    When she isn't transformed, she is wheelchaired bound due to losing legs in a Street racing car crash.

    Silhouette is Cambodia makin their own super soldier, but with magic. During the Vietnam war, a cult in Cambodia decided to use selective breeding and powerful energy source called the "Well of All Things" to create a race of superior humans. After she and her twin brother were born her mother hide them in an orphanage in Chinatown. The two discovered their latent powers as teenagers. She developed the ability to teleport through what's called the "Darkforce dimension" into and out of shadows. She also has enhanced speed, strength, agility, and a type of enhanced sensory perception.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Honestly, the part about shang chi that bugs me isnt an objection about the choice, but more the slight cringe that marvel was clearly looking for a more diverse lineup of characters to work with, and someone who is c list, MAYBE b list, was the best they could come up with for an asian headliner. Meaning there just werent any major characters in the marvel lineup they could use without rewriting an existing character. (Hey, did you know that hercules was actually japanese?! Tune in next week!) But seriously though, we all have seen the outrage any time marvel casts a character as another race. Honestly I LIKED michael clark duncan as kingpin. That dude was physically built for the role, and did a good job of being the kingpin, but even so, it was a little jarring to see the big beefy white dude replaced by a big beefy black guy, no matter how awesome. Of course, im honestly fond of most of the casting in that film even if the film itself was kinda meh.

    Digression aside, yeah, kinda sucks they had to go so deep into the depths of marvels lineup to find a main character. But thats what happens when 90% of your biggest properties were created in the 50s/60s or whatever. Nobody really wanted to taste the rainbow and stuck with what worked for the time. White dudes with minorities in subordinate roles (heya pie face! Hal says hello!) I GUESS we can have a woman, maybe two, in main-ish roles, but mostly wives and girlfriends only. /nod Also, keep the fridge handy so we can motivate the real heroes.
    I guess I don't see Shang-Chi as being any lower list than Guardians of the Galaxy.

    Shang-Chi is, certainly, being chosen because of his ethnicity, but he's also being chosen for the same reason as the Guardians were. He represents a concept that lends itself well to being a movie property. A complex self-contained backstory, a powerset that translates well to a visual media. A genre to be infused the same way they infused superhero into space-opera and superhero into military-fiction and superhero into Spy fiction.

    I think it works.

    Honestly, a lot of the a-list properties have already been used or they are so closely related to the ones used they would just be copies of what has come before.

    Fantastic Four and the X-men are only now available and they both have a luggage trail behind them to deal with.
    Daredevil, Luke Cage, iron Fist, Ghost Rider, Jessica Jones and Punisher were all done on the small screen and have a luggage trail behind them to deal with.
    A -list Avengers are already out there.

    At this point, I think they are wise just picking good creators and letting them chose from the properties available.

    Personally, I feel like we are about to fall off a cliff. I'm not terribly excited about Shang Chi or the Eternals. The trailer for Shang-Chi looked good to me until the silly comedic bus at the end which makes it look like Ant-Man. But, I'm fairly certain I'm wrong and that Marvel will prove me wrong.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    I mean, most of Marvel's East Asian characters are tied intrinsically to other characters.

    Jubilee, Armor, Sunfire, and Kwannon are intrinsically tied to the X-Men. Kwannon in particular is forever tied to Betsy Braddock due to the whole "put in each other's bodies and then spliced with each other's DNA and mutant powers so we can't easily be put right" thing that took decades to resolve.

    Silk is intrinsically tied to Spider-Man... And the movies have already established that Cindy Moon doesn't have powers.

    Amadeus Cho is tied to Hercules and The Hulk.

    And the New Agents of Atlas who aren't Amadeus, Cindy, or Shang-Chi are all very recently introduced characters who I doubt that most people have heard of, and if they were doing an Agents of Atlas Movie I imagine that they'd prefer to use the classic team and go full pulp action hero with it rather than a team of South Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, and assorted Asian Americans fighting a corrupt businessman who is trying to create a pan-Asian portal city and form his own sovereign nation out of cities stolen from other countries.

    The immortal weapons are all tied to closely to Iron Fist.

    It's pretty much just Shang-Chi. Everyone else is either even more obscure or would require too much work to set up.
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Originally Posted by Starbuck_II
    I mean, they could have instead established the Asian super heroes groups.
    Originally Posted by Rater202
    I mean, most of Marvel's East Asian characters are tied intrinsically to other characters.
    No one remembers Xian Coy Manh? Founding member of the New Mutants?

    A movie about her assembling a team of superheroes during the Blip is something I’d pay money to see.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    No one remembers Xian Coy Manh? Founding member of the New Mutants?

    A movie about her assembling a team of superheroes during the Blip is something I’d pay money to see.
    You know, you just made me go back and read the marvel.fandom.com/wiki on her. And boy... was she badly treated over her life as a marvel character.

    I also find it hilarious how much they love mutants who kill/absorb their twin into themselves. Monet, Charles Xavier, Karma... its a thing.

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    Default Re: Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

    I mean, n Xavier's case that wasn't really his twin.

    Cassandra Nova is a Mumandrai, an evil parasitic alien spirit, that latches onto someone to become their exact equal and opposite.

    She simply copied Xavier's genetic makeup and used it to create a body for herself to better oppose him.

    And I don't think you can really judge someone for something they did on instinct before they were even born.

    Baby Xavier, his powers active prenatally due to his mother's exposure to radiation, sensed Cassandra Nova's malevolent intent and instictly acted to destroy the source of malevolence. It wasn't even a conscious thought, and he's hardly the first person who instinctivly murdered their twin in the womb.
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