Shang Chi and the Very Long Subtitle About Obscure Marvel Lore

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Regardless, the bigger problem with the Netflix Iron Fist, from my understanding, was that it just kind of Sucked. Netflix Marvel never really made the Hand work as compelling antagonists, the actor they cast to play Danny Rand didn't have a martial arts background, and a lot of the storyline was dedicated to a boring corporate politics subplot. The result was just kind of a standard Superhero Show, but the protagonist's fist glowed before he punched people real hard, and that focused too much on "Does Danny Rand get to waltz back to New York and inherit a corporate Empire" vs Iron Fist stuff.
Which, considering the character of Iron Fist was created specifically due to the boom of interest in Martial Arts movies in the 70s, was a big miss.

My big problems with season 1 were that far, far too much of the plot hinges on Danny wanting to do something stupid and everyone goes along with it because he’s the Immortal Iron Fist the heir to Rand Enterprises the main character. Also until Coleen shows up (and Claire but she’s kind of shared with everybody) there are exactly 0 likable characters in the story. Danny as mentioned is an idiot, the Meechums are all corrupt and/or murderous to some extent...and until the Hand shows up that’s the entire named cast. There’s no one to cheer for.

Whereas in season 2, Danny has wised up a bit and Ward is now sympathetic, so it’s easier to care what happens to these people.

[Rynjin]

Also, Danny is a pretty crummy White Savior in the show given that he seems to have gotten everyone in K'un L'ung killed by being an entitled white jerk.

Yeah...the show kept trying to draw "shocking events" from the comics without any of the required setup. Though I never liked the comic that was drawn from anyway, so...

[BRC]

But that's kind of the underlying implication, right? You're saying that making Kun-Lun racist is just an attempt to invalidate complaints about Iron Fist being racist, but doesn't that mean the only alternative is making Kun-Lun an absolute utopia?

What does that say about the rest of humanity that only Kun-Lun got it right?

I feel like you're missing the issue people have with Iron Fist and the White Savior narrative.

It's not that Kun-Lun isn't a utopia, or that Danny Rand isn't portrayed as struggling.

Heck, I'd argue that there is nothing inherently problematic in Iron Fist's backstory.

Except that it's part of a pattern. The "White Person shows up in a nonwhite culture, masters the things that Culture Values, and becomes it's Hero" is a trope with a long history. On it's own, it's not inherently bad, since it's a story about an individual, but it's been repeated enough times that it leads to this theme of "A White Person, given the chance, will inherently outperform Nonwhite people at whatever they do", which, again, isn't pushed by any individual story so much as it's constructed by this repeated theme showing up again and again.

What's the problem with the Mandarin? I'm going to assume it's not the simple reason that he is Chinese and a villain. Hopefully it's not because he's a martial artist because you have someone in this thread arguing that making a white guy a super martial artist is wrong for some reason. Alien rings? Not sure what the problem with them would be? His wardrobe? So he dresses like he's the Emperor of China? They say dress for the job you want not the one you have. Is it that he is a "mad scientist"? Asians can't be?
.

Once again, this comes down to the history of Orientalism and Orientalist tropes, which the Comics version of The Mandarin is very much an embodiment of.

"A Cruel Chinese Martial Artist who looks like something out of a history textbook" isn't a problem on it's own, except that media at the time was FULL of such characters, usually being foiled by dashing white heroes. It was a stereotype, one that played into anti-asian racism and depictions of Asians as cruel, backwards, and strange. It played into pre-existing prejudices that people had.

That said, since the problems with The Mandarin are in his depiction, rather than any individual element, it's pretty easy to clean those up. He can be an evil mad-scientist wizard martial artist crimelord without issue, they just need to shy away from racist tropes and stereotypes.

[Rater202]

In my opinion, false.

Look if you made Danny Rand Asian-American, you preserve the fish-out-of-water story when he crashes in the mountains and is taken in by K'un L'un. As a rich american kid, he would still be thrown into a world he didn't understand and forced to embrace it. The difference is, the cultural appropriation component gets changed into a return-to-your-roots storyline where Danny has to discover his cultural roots rather than come in and save the primitive culture. That would be the way to rewire the narrative to "fix" the problems. Again - In my opinion - Everything I'm saying is just my opinion.

The Rich guy vs Not Rich guy relationship with Luke Cage is preserved. You -do- lose some of the White vs. Black punch in it, I agree with that. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. Just means its different.

She's the thing. A great deal of stories that deal with Danny's relationship with Kun'un is that he was treated like crap becuase he was an obvious outsider.

Kun'Lun is populated by people who look eAst Asian. So Danny can't be East Asian or anything that looks East Asian. He has to be an obvious outsider.

And Kun'Lun woulnd't be an Asian American's roots. There are preciouss few Kunluninans that don't live in Kun'Lun so even if Danny was Asian he still wouldn't be Kunlunian.

That would be like having a Chinese person who spent their whole life living in America learning to be Asian after they got stranded in rural Japan. It's arguably more racist.

You can judge Iron Fist by how he was written in the 70s all you want, but modern takes on Iron First depict his origin story as an outsider trying and failing to earn his place in a culture that won't accept him no matter what, then suddenly coming back to the culture he was born into to find that he's in a position of privilege.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

@Palanan - Pretty much agree. So far I see:

1. Kabuki villain from Big Her Six returns.

2. Story does look like a mish-mash of Mortal Kombat and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon but with a dash also of Ninja Assassin and DC's League of Shadows.

3. CGI is not that great looking for what was shown. In the what I presume is a historical back-flash scene it looks like Mulan (and not that much better).

4. High wire acrobatics with the lady in the green cloths are just head scratching of what their going for.

In this the trailer does not present much excitement to see this. Perhaps if another trailer drops my opinion might change but this is just meh so far. Dollar flick or something to see on cable.

[Giggling Ghast]

I feel like you're missing the issue people have with Iron Fist and the White Savior narrative.

More that I'm glossing over it to make another point: the implication that a foreign culture must be depicted as perfect in order to avoid racist implications is in and of itself kind of a problematic trope.

I won't deny that the White Saviour thing isn't racist, but this whole game of trying to avoid being racist kind of loops around to being racist again, sort of like the Greendale Human Being.

[Gallowglass]

She's the thing. A great deal of stories that deal with Danny's relationship with Kun'un is that he was treated like crap becuase he was an obvious outsider.

Danny is an outsider because he wasn't born there. He crashlanded in to mountains and was taken in. His race doesn't matter for that.

Kun'Lun is populated by people who look eAst Asian. So Danny can't be East Asian or anything that looks East Asian. He has to be an obvious outsider.

And Kun'Lun woulnd't be an Asian American's roots. There are preciouss few Kunluninans that don't live in Kun'Lun so even if Danny was Asian he still wouldn't be Kunlunian.

That would be like having a Chinese person who spent their whole life living in America learning to be Asian after they got stranded in rural Japan. It's arguably more racist.

You don't get to have it both ways. Either K'un L'un is populated by people who look east asian so anyone who looks east asian wouldn't be enough of an outsider OR anyone who isn't K'un L'unian is an outsider.

As K'un L'un isn't a real place, just a pastiche of East Asian stereotypes of a mystical shangri-la, there is no K'un L'unian culture, I disagree with your "more racist" statement.

You can judge Iron Fist by how he was written in the 70s all you want, but modern takes on Iron First depict his origin story as an outsider trying and failing to earn his place in a culture that won't accept him no matter what, then suddenly coming back to the culture he was born into to find that he's in a position of privilege.

That isn't modern. That's the 70s you are talking about.

If you want to bring in "modern" iron fist, then Danny isn't an outsider at all as his Father and... is it grandfather? were both Iron fists before him, he's as k'un l'unian as anyone. One might say More. He's come from a long line of Great White Saviors.

[Cikomyr2]

She's the thing. A great deal of stories that deal with Danny's relationship with Kun'un is that he was treated like crap becuase he was an obvious outsider.

Kun'Lun is populated by people who look eAst Asian. So Danny can't be East Asian or anything that looks East Asian. He has to be an obvious outsider.

And Kun'Lun woulnd't be an Asian American's roots. There are preciouss few Kunluninans that don't live in Kun'Lun so even if Danny was Asian he still wouldn't be Kunlunian.

That would be like having a Chinese person who spent their whole life living in America learning to be Asian after they got stranded in rural Japan. It's arguably more racist.

You can judge Iron Fist by how he was written in the 70s all you want, but modern takes on Iron First depict his origin story as an outsider trying and failing to earn his place in a culture that won't accept him no matter what, then suddenly coming back to the culture he was born into to find that he's in a position of privilege.

Then make him black. You can still have the whole "treated like an outsider", but you get around the Mighty European Ubermench Is Better Than The Locals At Their Own Culture.

[Rater202]

You don't get to have it both ways. Either K'un L'un is populated by people who look east asian so anyone who looks east asian wouldn't be enough of an outsider OR anyone who isn't K'un L'unian is an outsider.

I'm not trying to have it both ways.

Danny.. does not look like a Kun'Lunian.

Danny does not look like anything that could be confused for a Kun'Lunian.

And the Kun'Lunians judged him for this.

He would not have anywhere near as big a problem as he did if he looked like everyone else. If people didn't peg him as an outsider on sight and judge him as an outsider no matter how long he'd been there.

You can do a South Asian(Indian of Pakistani) Danny. You can do a black Danny, a pacific Islander Danny, an Australian aboriginal, an Amerindian, Latin American, or Southamerican

But you can't do East-Asian Danny. It undermines a major part of his backstory.

[SunsetWaraxe]

So, anyway, Shang-Chi looks pretty rad.

[Gallowglass]

I'm not trying to have it both ways.

Danny.. does not look like a Kun'Lunian.

Danny does not look like anything that could be confused for a Kun'Lunian.

And the Kun'Lunians judged him for this.

He would not have anywhere near as big a problem as he did if he looked like everyone else. If people didn't peg him as an outsider on sight and judge him as an outsider no matter how long he'd been there.

You can do a South Asian(Indian of Pakistani) Danny. You can do a black Danny, a pacific Islander Danny, an Australian aboriginal, an Amerindian, Latin American, or Southamerican

But you can't do East-Asian Danny. It undermines a major part of his backstory.

Yes. You are.

You JUST said that K'un L'unians are different than Chinese or Japanese. That they are an insular people living in a secret hidden city-state. That ANYONE not born there is an outsider.

they would show the exact same judgement on Danny if he was Chinese, Japanese or any other brand of Asian or Asian American. Because he ISN'T K'un L'unian.

The xenophobia is because he doesn't belong there. It works just as well if he was Asian American as if he was White.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

So, anyway, Shang-Chi looks pretty rad.

I’m kind of curious if he got Blipped or not. Might be why his supervillain dad is so insistent on having his son and presumed heir back at his side?

[Rater202]

Yes. You are.

You JUST said that K'un L'unians are different than Chinese or Japanese. That they are an insular people living in a secret hidden city-state. That ANYONE not born there is an outsider.

they would show the exact same judgement on Danny if he was Chinese, Japanese or any other brand of Asian or Asian American. Because he ISN'T K'un L'unian.

The xenophobia is because he doesn't belong there. It works just as well if he was Asian American as if he was White.

The xenophobia is becuase he obviously doesn't belong there.

If you dropped an African American in an South African town that hated Americans, people woulnd't immediately know that he's American until he said something and noticed that he had an American accent. Anyone he passed silently on the road woulnd't care.

An East-Asian Danny would be able to "Pass" so the average random person on the street wouldn't judge him poorly by default.

The fact that an Asian American Danny would have no roots in Kun'Lun is a separate argument referring to changing it from an "outsider learns to succeed in a place where outsiders are not welcome" to "change it to someone finding his roots."

Making two different arguments is not the same as trying to have it both ways.

[Gallowglass]

The xenophobia is becuase he obviously doesn't belong there.

If you dropped an African American in an South African town that hated Americans, people woulnd't immediately know that he's American until he said something and noticed that he had an American accent. Anyone he passed silently on the road woulnd't care.

An East-Asian Danny would be able to "Pass" so the average random person on the street wouldn't judge him poorly by default.

The fact that an Asian American Danny would have no roots in Kun'Lun is a separate argument referring to changing it from an "outsider learns to succeed in a place where outsiders are not welcome" to "change it to someone finding his roots."

Making two different arguments is not the same as trying to have it both ways.

To the small, insular citystate of K'un L'un anyone not born there would obviously not belong there. Regardless of the particular slant of their eyes.

Look, when I was 10 I moved from a small midwestern town to a different small midwestern town of about 2000 people. Lived there until I moved to college 8 years later. When i left, I was still "the new family". Everyone in the whole damn town looked exactly like me.


As for his "roots" as I stated. In the "modern" Iron Fist that you keep talking about while not actually talking about, his roots are firmly in K'un L'un. So if you wanted to include that in a theoretical movie/show then having his Asian American roots BE k'un l'unian if you think its important. still fixes the issues.

[Rynjin]

That isn't modern. That's the 70s you are talking about.

If you want to bring in "modern" iron fist, then Danny isn't an outsider at all as his Father and... is it grandfather? were both Iron fists before him, he's as k'un l'unian as anyone. One might say More. He's come from a long line of Great White Saviors.

This is where things get a bit weird, because it we're going with that line (I'm not sure how much of Immortal Iron Fist has been retconned at this point) it's ambiguous as to whether Wendell is a "white savior" at all. He certainly never became the Iron Fist, and it's ambiguous as to whether he actually won the fight with the soon-to-be Steel Serpent at all; Yu-Ti called the fight early, for mysterious reasons.

Orson Randall, Wendell's ADOPTIVE father was the first non-K'un L'unian Iron Fist for sure though. He's been mentioned (unless I'm misremembering) as recently as the currently ongoing series, so that's still in canon.

Of course, he is also unambiguously the world's ****tiest Iron Fist; in canon, no less, so hardly a savior either. He was very clearly made as a deconstruction of the trope (crashing on an airship in the 30's) and went on to muck around as a superhero briefly, get traumatized during WWI, and then shirk his responsibilities due to a combination of PTSD, depression, and opium addiction.

Assuming we ignore The Living Weapon (which all the rest of the canon has, it seems), Danny would then still have been stranded as a sort of coincidental echo of Orson, and then yes went on to become Iron Fist on his own merits. In either case, his heritage would not be treated as a benefit, but a black mark...and was never mentioned to him anyway.

This is also the same story that gives us plenty of looks at the other, traditionally Asian Iron Fists before Danny, who indirectly teach him a lot about the power he supposedly wields. Due to his nature as an outsider, he had no idea what the Iron Fist power was really capable of, and showed far less proficiency with it than other users, further debunking the idea that he's some kind of master-beyond-masters compared to other K'un L'unians.

[Kitten Champion]

I've heard this described as "Marvel does Enter the Dragon" which is all I needed or wanted out of a Shang-Chi movie.

Looking at the trailer that does basically appear to be what's going on here, just with more characterization offered for Simu Liu's Shang-Chi character since he isn't actually Bruce Lee.

[Rater202]

Anyway, who wants to plumb my ever-increasing encyclopedic knowledge of Marvel Comics Lore for facts about Shang-Chi and guess which ones make it into the movie?

Like the fact that he's canonically a better martial artist than Sun Wukong? I give 2 to 1 odds that that won't make it into the movie.

[Rynjin]

Anyway, who wants to plumb my ever-increasing encyclopedic knowledge of Marvel Comics Lore for facts about Shang-Chi and guess which ones make it into the movie?

Like the fact that he's canonically a better martial artist than Sun Wukong? I give 2 to 1 odds that that won't make it into the movie.

Isn't the whole point of Shang Chi that he's a canonically better martial artist than literally everyone in the extended Marvel universe? It might not make it into the story directly, but I would hope he truly is the Master of Kung Fu.

[JadedDM]

More that I'm glossing over it to make another point: the implication that a foreign culture must be depicted as perfect in order to avoid racist implications is in and of itself kind of a problematic trope.

Nobody is saying K'un L'un must be perfect, though. You're attacking a straw man.

[Gallowglass]

Isn't the whole point of Shang Chi that he's a canonically better martial artist than literally everyone in the extended Marvel universe? It might not make it into the story directly, but I would hope he truly is the Master of Kung Fu.

Looking forward to Shang Chi vs Karate Kid from Legion of Superheroes.

In all seriousness, though, i was enjoying the trailer until the silly bus crash at the end with the wise-cracking driver. I feel about that the same way I do about the equally "funny" bits from the black widow trailer. I wish they would stop making every movie Ant Man now.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Looked up the actress and yep! Same actress that played Sisu. Now I am going to see a fluffy blue dragon every time she appears on screen.

[Rater202]

Isn't the whole point of Shang Chi that he's a canonically better martial artist than literally everyone in the extended Marvel universe? It might not make it into the story directly, but I would hope he truly is the Master of Kung Fu.

Yes. tha't s his thing.

Ranking in terms of pure martial arts skill, not including super powers or chi manipulation, the top fifteen, to my knowledge, is.

Shang-Chi.
Hercules.
Iron Fist.
Fat Cobra.
Sun Wukong.
Wolverine.
Stick.
Taskmaster.
Black Panther.
Captain America.
Daredevil.
The Kingpin.
Echo.
Spider-Man.
Finesse

And one of those might be bumped off in favor of Cresent, who is a ten-year-old Taekwando prodigy whose skill is good enough that she's allowed to fight crime instead of merely sending her Ghost Bear that also knows Taekwando to fight, but I don't know where she ranks in comparison to others.

Also, for the sake of completeness, most of those people have powers or augmentations that allow them to acquire martial arts skill more quickly or retain it with less practice than a normal person. There are people with more training or experience than some of those people who aren't on the list because their harder work didn't translate to more skill.

[Rynjin]

Hercules at number 2, really? That's interesting. I know very little about Marvel Hercules except he was briefly a member of the bigger expansion of the Heroes for Hire (the one with the Black Knight, and the original Human Torch as the financer).

[Gallowglass]

Yes. tha't s his thing.

Ranking in terms of pure martial arts skill, not including super powers or chi manipulation, the top fifteen, to my knowledge, is.

Shang-Chi.
Hercules.
Iron Fist.
Fat Cobra.
Sun Wukong.
Wolverine.
Stick.
Taskmaster.
Black Panther.
Captain America.
Daredevil.
The Kingpin.
Echo.
Spider-Man.
Finesse

And one of those might be bumped off in favor of Cresent, who is a ten-year-old Taekwando prodigy whose skill is good enough that she's allowed to fight crime instead of merely sending her Ghost Bear that also knows Taekwando to fight, but I don't know where she ranks in comparison to others.

Also, for the sake of completeness, most of those people have powers or augmentations that allow them to acquire martial arts skill more quickly or retain it with less practice than a normal person. There are people with more training or experience than some of those people who aren't on the list because their harder work didn't translate to more skill.

That list is as silly as the "smartest people in the marvel universe list". I particularly enjoy the silliness of Hercules being up there.

I'm guessing it came from Greg Pak, who wrote the Incredible Hercules series. And was responsible for the "smartest people" list as well?

it was nice of him to put at least two women on there, even if they are so far down the list. No Black Widow, No mockingbird, No Mantis, No Moondragon, No Psylocke, No Lady Bullseye, No Elektra, No Gorgon? No Wong? No Karnak? Hmmm.... seems suspect to me. I'm pretty sure we could come up with a list of 15 people not on that list that would win in a tournament against the 15 that are.

I mean, except Shang Chi. He's obviously the best.

[Tyrant]

RE: Gallowglass, Cikomyr2

Spoiler

Show

The fact that the writers basically tried to show "but look! Danny is experiencing reverse racism!

There's only racism. Reverse racism is a nothing statement.

Danny being White is not essential to the character. He absolutely could've been played by an Asian guy, a black guy, a brown guy, any race of guy in the series and it would've worked fine. And helped to erase the inherent cultural appropriation, great white hero issues inherent in the property.

So if Danny Rand were black, which you say is fine, how is that not still cultural appropriation?

Then make him black. You can still have the whole "treated like an outsider", but you get around the Mighty European Ubermench Is Better Than The Locals At Their Own Culture.

So, just to be clear, the problem is that he is a white outsider who is better than the locals and not that he is an outsider who is better than the locals?

You guys know you are endorsing treating characters that are doing the same things differently based on their race, right?

You guys might want to seriously reconsider some things.

That said, since the problems with The Mandarin are in his depiction, rather than any individual element, it's pretty easy to clean those up. He can be an evil mad-scientist wizard martial artist crimelord without issue, they just need to shy away from racist tropes and stereotypes.

First, let me say that I appreciate that you seem to be answering in good faith. So if the Mandarin can be an evil mad-scientist-wizard**-martial artist-crimelord, what exactly are you saying is the issue? Is it literally only his wardrobe? I genuinely feel like Mandarin is just being lumped in here due to proximity and nothing with the actual character.

** Just in case this is in reference to the rings, they are alien technology, not magic. And not in a Thor Technology=magic kind of way. They were found in an alien ship and, unless I am mistaken, the Mandarin also studied the ship and the rest of it's technology.

Although they tackled basically the same issue in Doctor Strange by recasting The Ancient One, and trying hard to deflavor his sorcerous tradition away from the orientalist stereotypes from the comic into a distinctly international society of sorcerers, and Strange just happens to find them in Thailand.

I hope you don't think they recast the Ancient One or moved them from Tibet for any kind of noble reason.

[Rater202]

Hercules at number 2, really? That's interesting. I know very little about Marvel Hercules except he was briefly a member of the bigger expansion of the Heroes for Hire (the one with the Black Knight, and the original Human Torch as the financer).

As the Olympian God of Strength, Sports, and Athleticism, Hercules is the best or almost the best at everything even remotely athletic.

Shang-Chi beats him out by Breadth of skill, rather than depth: Hercules spent most of his life since becoming a full-fledged God on Olympus and very rarely venturing out into the mortal world, so the vast majority of his experience is with ancient Greek and Roman martial traditions.

Shang-Chi meanwhile knows at least a little bit of literally everything.

Bruce Lee said he feared the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times more than the man who practiced a thousand kicks once each. Shang-Chi is the man who practiced a thousand kicks a thousand times each.

[SunsetWaraxe]

I’m kind of curious if he got Blipped or not. Might be why his supervillain dad is so insistent on having his son and presumed heir back at his side?

Oooo, good idea! That would ground the story in the post-blip universe while also making it understandable why Shang-Chi's father is all about making the son join the father.

Hercules.

Wait, really? #2? Hercules?

Taskmaster.

My boi!!!! Love Task Master. I hope he is treated well in the MCU

[Rater202]

I'm guessing it came from Greg Pak, who wrote the Incredible Hercules series. And was responsible for the "smartest people" list as well?

No, actually.

Or, if it is it would be a hell of a coincidence.

That was based on my own research into various characters. Notably, everyone whose been said to be "one of the greatest martial artists in the world" is on that last.

If we were doing "who would win in a fight" then Elektra and the Black Widow would definitely be on the list, but I didn't include them becuase they're primarily assassins. They pick and choose from different disciplines and use them to craft a fighting style that is adapted for quick and efficient killing.

Deadpool is omitted from the list for the same reason.

As opposed to say, Captain America, the person on the list who most closely analogs to Natasha due to both being super-soldiers with similar power sets, who has actually mastered multiple complete disciplines.

Echo would probably be number one... But that's mostly becuase she's currently the host of the Phoenix Force. Jason Aaron's Avengers is freaking weird.

Otherwise Hercules, just becuase his raw strength can outmatch the skill of even Shang Chi.

Spider-Man wouldn't even be on the list. He's mastered exactly one form of Kung Fu, with help, in part becuase of his superhuman reflexes.

As is, Echoi and Finesse are on the list becuase of their abilities to copy the the skills of other martial artists on sight. Taskmaster is higher up on the list than them becuase he's copied a hell of a lot more.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Bruce Lee said he feared the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times more than the man who practiced a thousand kicks once each. Shang-Chi is the man who practiced a thousand kicks a thousand times each.

I have a sudden desire to go introduce him to Fa-Nuit-Hen.

[Tyrant]

Taskmaster is higher up on the list than them becuase he's copied a hell of a lot more.

He was the one I kind of questioned. He copies them but does he understand them*? I know I have seen some panels where he mentions that he doesn't even know what the various moves are called and I believe that caused an issue because he doesn't know that some moves are the counter to other moves. For him it's "that kick I saw Iron Fist use" or "that move Cap used to throw me out a window". Obviously he's a very highly capable combatant, but it just feels a little off (to me) putting him on a list of martial artists since he arguably might not be one. He doesn't really train, right? He just copies what he sees. It seems like if you say a certain band is the best in the world and the second best band is a cover band that doesn't have any original material. To me, anyway.

*But does that matter?