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Thread: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
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2021-04-22, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
Greater speed is employed by the Vulcans who have Warp 6 capable ships and escorts can be supplied by Star fleet without tying up the single most advanced ship humanity has created (which was created with the specific mission of exploration, given its ability to go farther faster than anything else in the fleet).
Cargo ships typically operate at Warp 2 or so, which any Starfleet ship is also capable of, so escorts would not be an issue.Last edited by Peelee; 2021-04-22 at 06:27 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-04-22, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
Yeah, because humans and Vulcans in Enterprise famously get along really well and always help each other out where possible. Oh, wait, sorry, that must be some other series you're thinking of, because that's certainly not how things worked in the one I saw. And I still don't see why having the "explorer" ship not being the very first one launched makes any difference whatsoever to the basic premise of Enterprise the series, which boils down to "Humans head out into deep space for the first time".
Let's put it this way: if I was a cargo ship captain making runs to Alpha Centauri and I heard that Starfleet's biggest, fastest and newest ship had been sent off on a fool's errand to the back end of nowhere while pirates were allowed free reign of the local trade routes, I certainly wouldn't think Starfleet's priorities were entirely straight...Last edited by factotum; 2021-04-22 at 01:42 PM.
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2021-04-22, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
Quite likely. There's lots of people that don't want us to get off Earth until we have all the problems here sorted out either. Those merchant captains, however, are likely to live to see the developments of the fancy technology that Starfleet's fanciest new ship brings back when it goes out and discovers interesting new people and bizarre new stellar and planetary phenomena.
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2021-04-22, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-22, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
Indeed. As I've already said, Vulcans were adamantly against the humans exploring too far and too fast, so it would behoove the Vulcans' interests to help protect the humans' ships from pirates before the NX was built so as to make the humans desire to achieve higher warp sooner less important. And yet you don't complain about that.
Again, when you watch The Hunt for Red October, do you think it was foolish of the Soviets to not use the submarine to guard its merchant fleet?
The NX is the pinnacle of human achievement at the time. The human's empire is not being threatened with extinction by pirates. The pirates are not totally disrupting interstellar trade on a massive scale. The pirates, to put it bluntly, are a petty threat. They aren't that important.
Starfleet is, first and foremost, a fleet. They have other ships they can use (and likely do use when possible). Taking their newest, fastest, most powerful, most expensive ship with the most cutting edge technology and putting it on petty detail is silly. They might deal with the occasional pirate as it crosses their path, but dedicated hunters? That would be skewered priorities.
ETA: Not to mention if you think the entire premise of the show is a fool's errand to start with, then it's hardly surprising that you disliked it, though I'd also wonder what you liked about any of the other shows.Last edited by Peelee; 2021-04-22 at 05:26 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-04-22, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
Ironically enough, in the couple of episodes where we actually get to see cargo ships and their crew, and how they operate, it was sort of the opposite. They didn't like the idea of going faster than Warp 2. They saw it as a threat to their way of life (spending weeks and even months at a time en route between star systems). The show sort of played it off as if they were obsoletes, or quickly becoming that way, and were reluctant to embrace the future. Every time the Enterprise did try to help them, they had more of a 'we don't need help from no fancy Starfleet ships' attitude.
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2021-04-22, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
Originally Posted by JadedDM
Ironically enough, in the couple of episodes where we actually get to see cargo ships and their crew, and how they operate, it was sort of the opposite. They didn't like the idea of going faster than Warp 2. They saw it as a threat to their way of life (spending weeks and even months at a time en route between star systems).
I haven't watched the show since it first aired, but as I recall, they could take years on a single run between stars. I remember one of the characters saying he spent second, third and fourth grades on one trip, which implies a couple of years at least. But that's an old memory, not sure how accurate it is.
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2021-04-22, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
It was actually from the pilot episode; Travis Mayweather said he spent the fourth, fifth and sixth grades on a trip to Trillius Prime.
Travis was a terribly under utilized character in the show. His whole backstory is that he was literally born in space. His parents were space merchants and he by the time he graduated from Starfleet Academy, he had already clocked more time among the stars than most Starfleet captains of that time had.
But the show never really spent a lot of time on him or on the idea of civilian cargo ships and their crews. That was really Enterprise's biggest sin, more than anything is, is all of the massive untapped potential that was just outright ignored, in my opinion. (And I say this as someone who likes Enterprise; I'd even consider it among my favorite of the series.)
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2021-04-22, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
Originally Posted by JadedDM
It was actually from the pilot episode; Travis Mayweather said he spent the fourth, fifth and sixth grades on a trip to Trillius Prime.
I didn't watch much past the first few episodes, but I'm sorry to hear that they never delved into the deep-space merchant fleet. But not entirely surprised; that would have been a great opportunity for world-building, but it sounds like they blew right past it.
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2021-04-22, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-23, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
SpoilerThis little scene always irks me. The list is just Archer and four people who, if Phillipa had not died a few months prior, are all currently serving in Starfleet. So in the hundred and so years after Archer there wasn't a single noteworthy captain? Also, they are all human. Just throw in a few random alien names, maybe put Shran on the list.Two by two, hands of blue.
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2021-04-23, 01:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
You really love your reductio ad absurdum, don't you? You know very well that's not even a remotely comparable situation, because the Soviets have plenty of other vessels perfectly capable of performing that sort of protection duty. Nothing else in Starfleet comes close to the capabilities of the NX class, so the situation is not the same--it would be like using the Red October to explore the world if every other vessel in the Soviet navy was a nineteenth-century wooden hulled sailing ship.
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2021-04-23, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
Hold the phone. Do you think that reductio ad absurdum is a fallacy?
You know very well that's not even a remotely comparable situation, because the Soviets have plenty of other vessels perfectly capable of performing that sort of protection duty. Nothing else in Starfleet comes close to the capabilities of the NX class, so the situation is not the same
--it would be like using the Red October to explore the world if every other vessel in the Soviet navy was a nineteenth-century wooden hulled sailing ship.
*minus my previous argument of them potentially going out into the galaxy and coming back with awesome new allies or tech.
Of course, all of this is (IMO) after-the-fact justification to what the real situation is -- the space pirates are there because they serve the Doylist needs of an episode where there are space pirates, and they would exist no matter how many NX-class ships were patrolling the merchant lanes. There were raiders and pirates and colony-threatening aliens in TNG when the Federation was coded as something of a post-scarcity society.
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2021-04-23, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-23, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
Yes, it actually is one of my favorite debate tools. And it very much is analogous; Starfleet also had many other ships capable of protection duty, and just as Starfleet only had one NX, the Soviets only had one Caterpillar drive. Starfleet certainly had other ships that were capable of Warp 2, or even Warp 3.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-04-23, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-23, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
By the time of Enterprise, it was possible to upgrade cargo ships to have Warp 3 engines (which originally could, at best, do 1.8). Mayweather's family's ship (the Horizon) initially refused to upgrade, as they saw it as a threat to their way of life. They liked the long travel times. However, toward the end, when Mayweather's brother took over as captain, he basically agreed they would have no choice but to upgrade in order to stay competitive.
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2021-04-24, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?
Yes, but AFAIK that was a consequence of the Warp 5 engine development, so it could only happen *after* the NX class had been launched. Certainly dialogue in the early episodes of Enterprise talk about the "Warp 2 barrier" as being a hard limit no ship has been able to get past until the NX.