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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    I haven't watched that show. What speed do the cargo ships have? Do they describe how the pirates operate? There are scenarios where, to fight pirates, you either need superior speed, or supply military escorts to the cargo ships, or employ Q-ships.
    Greater speed is employed by the Vulcans who have Warp 6 capable ships and escorts can be supplied by Star fleet without tying up the single most advanced ship humanity has created (which was created with the specific mission of exploration, given its ability to go farther faster than anything else in the fleet).

    Cargo ships typically operate at Warp 2 or so, which any Starfleet ship is also capable of, so escorts would not be an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    "Other people also have it bad" is not a good argument for the status quo. It's just an argument that more people need help.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And, again, Vulcans exist.
    Yeah, because humans and Vulcans in Enterprise famously get along really well and always help each other out where possible. Oh, wait, sorry, that must be some other series you're thinking of, because that's certainly not how things worked in the one I saw. And I still don't see why having the "explorer" ship not being the very first one launched makes any difference whatsoever to the basic premise of Enterprise the series, which boils down to "Humans head out into deep space for the first time".

    Let's put it this way: if I was a cargo ship captain making runs to Alpha Centauri and I heard that Starfleet's biggest, fastest and newest ship had been sent off on a fool's errand to the back end of nowhere while pirates were allowed free reign of the local trade routes, I certainly wouldn't think Starfleet's priorities were entirely straight...
    Last edited by factotum; 2021-04-22 at 01:42 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Let's put it this way: if I was a cargo ship captain making runs to Alpha Centauri and I heard that Starfleet's biggest, fastest and newest ship had been sent off on a fool's errand to the back end of nowhere while pirates were allowed free reign of the local trade routes, I certainly wouldn't think Starfleet's priorities were entirely straight...
    Quite likely. There's lots of people that don't want us to get off Earth until we have all the problems here sorted out either. Those merchant captains, however, are likely to live to see the developments of the fancy technology that Starfleet's fanciest new ship brings back when it goes out and discovers interesting new people and bizarre new stellar and planetary phenomena.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Greater speed is employed by the Vulcans who have Warp 6 capable ships and escorts can be supplied by Star fleet without tying up the single most advanced ship humanity has created (which was created with the specific mission of exploration, given its ability to go farther faster than anything else in the fleet).

    Cargo ships typically operate at Warp 2 or so, which any Starfleet ship is also capable of, so escorts would not be an issue.
    And with the Freedom-class of Warp 4 capable ships, which would make much more sense as patrol ships and caravan guards than the highly technical and expensive NX-class Warp 5 ships.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Yeah, because humans and Vulcans in Enterprise famously get along really well and always help each other out where possible. Oh, wait, sorry, that must be some other series you're thinking of, because that's certainly not how things worked in the one I saw.
    Indeed. As I've already said, Vulcans were adamantly against the humans exploring too far and too fast, so it would behoove the Vulcans' interests to help protect the humans' ships from pirates before the NX was built so as to make the humans desire to achieve higher warp sooner less important. And yet you don't complain about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Let's put it this way: if I was a cargo ship captain making runs to Alpha Centauri and I heard that Starfleet's biggest, fastest and newest ship had been sent off on a fool's errand to the back end of nowhere while pirates were allowed free reign of the local trade routes, I certainly wouldn't think Starfleet's priorities were entirely straight...
    Again, when you watch The Hunt for Red October, do you think it was foolish of the Soviets to not use the submarine to guard its merchant fleet?

    The NX is the pinnacle of human achievement at the time. The human's empire is not being threatened with extinction by pirates. The pirates are not totally disrupting interstellar trade on a massive scale. The pirates, to put it bluntly, are a petty threat. They aren't that important.

    Starfleet is, first and foremost, a fleet. They have other ships they can use (and likely do use when possible). Taking their newest, fastest, most powerful, most expensive ship with the most cutting edge technology and putting it on petty detail is silly. They might deal with the occasional pirate as it crosses their path, but dedicated hunters? That would be skewered priorities.

    ETA: Not to mention if you think the entire premise of the show is a fool's errand to start with, then it's hardly surprising that you disliked it, though I'd also wonder what you liked about any of the other shows.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-04-22 at 05:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    "Other people also have it bad" is not a good argument for the status quo. It's just an argument that more people need help.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Let's put it this way: if I was a cargo ship captain making runs to Alpha Centauri and I heard that Starfleet's biggest, fastest and newest ship had been sent off on a fool's errand to the back end of nowhere while pirates were allowed free reign of the local trade routes, I certainly wouldn't think Starfleet's priorities were entirely straight...
    Ironically enough, in the couple of episodes where we actually get to see cargo ships and their crew, and how they operate, it was sort of the opposite. They didn't like the idea of going faster than Warp 2. They saw it as a threat to their way of life (spending weeks and even months at a time en route between star systems). The show sort of played it off as if they were obsoletes, or quickly becoming that way, and were reluctant to embrace the future. Every time the Enterprise did try to help them, they had more of a 'we don't need help from no fancy Starfleet ships' attitude.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Originally Posted by JadedDM
    Ironically enough, in the couple of episodes where we actually get to see cargo ships and their crew, and how they operate, it was sort of the opposite. They didn't like the idea of going faster than Warp 2. They saw it as a threat to their way of life (spending weeks and even months at a time en route between star systems).
    This was about the only aspect of the show that I liked. I loved the idea of a separate culture of sublight traders.

    I haven't watched the show since it first aired, but as I recall, they could take years on a single run between stars. I remember one of the characters saying he spent second, third and fourth grades on one trip, which implies a couple of years at least. But that's an old memory, not sure how accurate it is.

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    It was actually from the pilot episode; Travis Mayweather said he spent the fourth, fifth and sixth grades on a trip to Trillius Prime.

    Travis was a terribly under utilized character in the show. His whole backstory is that he was literally born in space. His parents were space merchants and he by the time he graduated from Starfleet Academy, he had already clocked more time among the stars than most Starfleet captains of that time had.

    But the show never really spent a lot of time on him or on the idea of civilian cargo ships and their crews. That was really Enterprise's biggest sin, more than anything is, is all of the massive untapped potential that was just outright ignored, in my opinion. (And I say this as someone who likes Enterprise; I'd even consider it among my favorite of the series.)

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?

    Originally Posted by JadedDM
    It was actually from the pilot episode; Travis Mayweather said he spent the fourth, fifth and sixth grades on a trip to Trillius Prime.
    Thanks, at least I remembered there were three grades involved.

    I didn't watch much past the first few episodes, but I'm sorry to hear that they never delved into the deep-space merchant fleet. But not entirely surprised; that would have been a great opportunity for world-building, but it sounds like they blew right past it.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    It was actually from the pilot episode; Travis Mayweather said he spent the fourth, fifth and sixth grades on a trip to Trillius Prime.

    Travis was a terribly under utilized character in the show. His whole backstory is that he was literally born in space. His parents were space merchants and he by the time he graduated from Starfleet Academy, he had already clocked more time among the stars than most Starfleet captains of that time had.

    But the show never really spent a lot of time on him or on the idea of civilian cargo ships and their crews. That was really Enterprise's biggest sin, more than anything is, is all of the massive untapped potential that was just outright ignored, in my opinion. (And I say this as someone who likes Enterprise; I'd even consider it among my favorite of the series.)
    I wholly agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    "Other people also have it bad" is not a good argument for the status quo. It's just an argument that more people need help.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
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    This little scene always irks me. The list is just Archer and four people who, if Phillipa had not died a few months prior, are all currently serving in Starfleet. So in the hundred and so years after Archer there wasn't a single noteworthy captain? Also, they are all human. Just throw in a few random alien names, maybe put Shran on the list.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Again, when you watch The Hunt for Red October, do you think it was foolish of the Soviets to not use the submarine to guard its merchant fleet?
    You really love your reductio ad absurdum, don't you? You know very well that's not even a remotely comparable situation, because the Soviets have plenty of other vessels perfectly capable of performing that sort of protection duty. Nothing else in Starfleet comes close to the capabilities of the NX class, so the situation is not the same--it would be like using the Red October to explore the world if every other vessel in the Soviet navy was a nineteenth-century wooden hulled sailing ship.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    You really love your reductio ad absurdum, don't you?
    Hold the phone. Do you think that reductio ad absurdum is a fallacy?

    You know very well that's not even a remotely comparable situation, because the Soviets have plenty of other vessels perfectly capable of performing that sort of protection duty. Nothing else in Starfleet comes close to the capabilities of the NX class, so the situation is not the same
    The situation would not be the same if Starfleet had nothing else in the fleet capable of performing protection duty, not that Starfleet had nothing else in the fleet capable of doing what the NX class can do.

    --it would be like using the Red October to explore the world if every other vessel in the Soviet navy was a nineteenth-century wooden hulled sailing ship.
    Okay, so there is some merit to this part of the argument. Depending on how much of Starfleet's budget is going to the NX class development, perhaps it would be better spent* on making several of their existing ships just a bit better at anti-piracy.
    *minus my previous argument of them potentially going out into the galaxy and coming back with awesome new allies or tech.

    Of course, all of this is (IMO) after-the-fact justification to what the real situation is -- the space pirates are there because they serve the Doylist needs of an episode where there are space pirates, and they would exist no matter how many NX-class ships were patrolling the merchant lanes. There were raiders and pirates and colony-threatening aliens in TNG when the Federation was coded as something of a post-scarcity society.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hands_Of_Blue View Post
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    This little scene always irks me. The list is just Archer and four people who, if Phillipa had not died a few months prior, are all currently serving in Starfleet. So in the hundred and so years after Archer there wasn't a single noteworthy captain? Also, they are all human. Just throw in a few random alien names, maybe put Shran on the list.
    Perhaps this is only page one and we can't see the scroll bar. Perhaps, by sheer happenstance, the other several dozen decorated captains all have names that are alphabetically after P.

    It -is- a very silly computer graphic.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    You really love your reductio ad absurdum, don't you?
    Yes, it actually is one of my favorite debate tools. And it very much is analogous; Starfleet also had many other ships capable of protection duty, and just as Starfleet only had one NX, the Soviets only had one Caterpillar drive. Starfleet certainly had other ships that were capable of Warp 2, or even Warp 3.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    "Other people also have it bad" is not a good argument for the status quo. It's just an argument that more people need help.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Starfleet certainly had other ships that were capable of Warp 2, or even Warp 3.
    I thought it was canonical that Starfleet (or any other human organisation, for that matter) didn't have anything capable of exceeding warp 2 until the Warp 5 engine development finished?

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I thought it was canonical that Starfleet (or any other human organisation, for that matter) didn't have anything capable of exceeding warp 2 until the Warp 5 engine development finished?
    By the time of Enterprise, it was possible to upgrade cargo ships to have Warp 3 engines (which originally could, at best, do 1.8). Mayweather's family's ship (the Horizon) initially refused to upgrade, as they saw it as a threat to their way of life. They liked the long travel times. However, toward the end, when Mayweather's brother took over as captain, he basically agreed they would have no choice but to upgrade in order to stay competitive.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Getting Back Into Star Trek?

    Yes, but AFAIK that was a consequence of the Warp 5 engine development, so it could only happen *after* the NX class had been launched. Certainly dialogue in the early episodes of Enterprise talk about the "Warp 2 barrier" as being a hard limit no ship has been able to get past until the NX.

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