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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    I think the main difference between the Dark One to every other ascendant, is that the goblinoids as a species weren't sponsored by any pantheon. all that belief they have still has the same power as every other race sure, but unlike elves or dwarves it wasn't also tied to a pre-existing pantheon. For example the ascendant dwarven king was probably a worshipper of Thor, and that impacted the quiddity he had cause all his dwarven worshippers believed he was related to that pantheon and thus he was sponsored by them. On the other hand not only was the Dark One not worshipping any gods, he was at the very least believed to have directly opposed them and proposed a new option for goblinoids.

    It was that belief on the Dark One being an alternative to all other gods that gave him an unique quiddity, because just as Loki is a liar cause everyone believes he's a liar, the Dark One has a different quiddity than the other gods cause all goblinoids believe he is inherently different.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    I mean, yes, those things are true, but they're also not new revelations. You're not stating or bringing up anything new.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2021-04-20 at 09:25 PM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Was that ever explicitedly said in the comic? In my defense it's been like a year lol I was pretty sure Thor said he didn't knew why TDO was special

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    I don't think it's entirely explicit, but it can be reasonably inferred. Thor says the Dark One "somehow" tapped into purple quiddity, but he also mentions that the Dark One ascended to godhood "without sponsorship by any one of the existing pantheons." I think it's been the general working assumption that the reasons you stated-- that the goblins themselves had no patron deity or pantheon before him-- are the reasons he wasn't sponsored and did it on his own, and that doing it on his own is why he has a unique quiddity.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2021-04-21 at 01:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Wouldn't that be replicable, though? Create a world with a group or species that's pre-disposed to creating their own god, grant them prosperity and leave them to their own devices, and let them sort it out. If it doesn't work for one world, then try again the next one. That at least suggests Thor isn't sure why it happened, since he's not expecting to be able to recreate it.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    The "somehow" is pretty explicit that Thor doesn't understand the mecanics of the Dark One getting his own divine essence. It's obvious that him.being raised to godhood by an unaligned people is part of it but nothing guarantees that's the only factor. And therefore, despite some Northern gods being willing to wait for a more amicable god to appear, nothing guarantees this will happen.

    Maybe his hatred of the other pantheons was essential to the process, maybe there are only five potential quiddities and once they're tapped into they can't be accessed by somebody else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Think about how the belief and mythology would have worked
    If they had worshipped him as an enemy of a specific pantheon he would effectively have become a part of that pantheon because that would have made belief in him part of belief in that pantheon.
    Partly because goblinoids are spread around the world they have a common culture etc that goes across pantheon areas - as opposed to dwarves having a main home in the North and elves in the west.
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    What is interesting about Dark One is, purple is not only his quiddity, it's also his skin color. So, he was different from other goblins since beginning
    and there is something weird and unusual about him.

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    d6 Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Simple solution red and blue make purple. Those two colors agreed what goblinoid races should be.
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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor View Post
    Simple solution red and blue make purple. Those two colors agreed what goblinoid races should be.
    The gods have auras of a particular color bexause they are constantly emitting magical particles at a certain wavelength in a way akin to Hawking's radiations. For the Dark One's aura to be the result of two colors mixed together, he'd have to be made of two divine essences rather than of a whole new one, undermining Thor's whole gambit.

    Also adding blue and red lights together doesn't make purple, it makes pink.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor View Post
    Simple solution red and blue make purple. Those two colors agreed what goblinoid races should be.
    A.) The colors are just how mortals perceive quiddity not actual colors that necessarily abide by color theory.
    2.) Even if they do, we don't know if they would work on additive color theory (all the colors make white, eg light) or subtractive color theory (all the colors make black, eg paint).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    "Other people also have it bad" is not a good argument for the status quo. It's just an argument that more people need help.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A.) The colors are just how mortals perceive quiddity not actual colors that necessarily abide by color theory.
    2.) Even if they do, we don't know if they would work on additive color theory (all the colors make white, eg light) or subtractive color theory (all the colors make black, eg paint).
    That's not actually true (though that's very close). Read Thor's words carefully. The colours are how the mortals perceive a stream of particles (this is exactly how colours work in real life). The wavelength of these particles (and therefore the actual colour perceived) is dependent of the god's essence, just like the colour of a heated gaz is dependent on the atomic make-up of that gaz.

    Therefore it seems like the gods' auras should obey colour theory (in fact the strip is called "Advanced color theory"), specifically additive colour theory since the gods are emitting rather than reflecting light.
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    Mage avatar by smutmulch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    My suspicion is that the god colours work like light - but not in relation to mixing to produce an effect - instead in that the violet (which can be easily viewed as purple for general usage such as how Thor was explaining to Durkon) is its own light colour rather then a mixture of red and blue - had Thor used violet instead of purple I suspect the idea of him being mixed colours would not be considered as frequently.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2021-04-21 at 11:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quiddity is based around the Munsell colour system, where purple is a principal hue (alongside green, blue, yellow and red). That's a fact.

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    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That's not actually true (though that's very close). Read Thor's words carefully. The colours are how the mortals perceive a stream of particles (this is exactly how colours work in real life).
    Thats close to how colors work in real life - particles at a specific wavelength. However, with light the particles are photons, and with the godly essences, the particles are most decidedly not photons, as Thor states in that same link.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    "Other people also have it bad" is not a good argument for the status quo. It's just an argument that more people need help.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Thats close to how colors work in real life - particles at a specific wavelength. However, with light the particles are photons, and with the godly essences, the particles are most decidedly not photons, as Thor states in that same link.
    Yes but the mortals perceive them like photons so, since "colour" is a creation of mortal brains, the fact that they aren't actually photons isn't really relevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  17. - Top - End - #17
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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That's a fact.
    Eh? who said so?

    There are six primary colours, three subtractive and three addative, they are red, green and blue (subtractive) and yellow, cyan and magenta (addative), these all depend on human physiology. In nature there are no colours, just a totally variable spectrum of light that goes from high energy gamma radiation to very long wavelength radio waves.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yes but the mortals perceive them like photons so, since "colour" is a creation of mortal brains, the fact that they aren't actually photons isn't really relevant.
    Unless interactions like mixing aren't perceived like photons, in which case it's exceedingly relevant. And Thor never said anything about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    "Other people also have it bad" is not a good argument for the status quo. It's just an argument that more people need help.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Unless interactions like mixing aren't perceived like photons, in which case it's exceedingly relevant. And Thor never said anything about that.
    But at that point that's brain stuff not particle stuff. I mean neither colour theories have to do with particle interacting just how the brain reacts to receiving several different signals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Eh? who said so?
    That's A FACT! Deal with it!

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    Wouldn't that be replicable, though? Create a world with a group or species that's pre-disposed to creating their own god, grant them prosperity and leave them to their own devices, and let them sort it out. If it doesn't work for one world, then try again the next one. That at least suggests Thor isn't sure why it happened, since he's not expecting to be able to recreate it.
    Now that is a very intriguing idea. I would guess it can't happen because the gods would be too jealous and petty of creating another god that could be a threat to themselves.

    The gods need a certain amount of worshippers to sustain themselves - but they could set aside a "test group" specifically to try to get them to create their own gods. Maybe obliquely influence events in the group's history to try to encourage the worship and apotheosis of a single figure.


    Crazy tinfoil speculation: What if it's already happened? What if the goblinoids and the Dark One are precisely the results of just such an experiment?


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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
    Crazy tinfoil speculation: What if it's already happened? What if the goblinoids and the Dark One are precisely the results of just such an experiment?
    Doesn't go too well with Thor and other gods not realizing significance of Dark One's new quiddity immediately.

    Anyway, I'm inclined to think that should this world fail, the gods may very well focus their next worldbuilding in this direction.
    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor View Post
    Simple solution red and blue make purple. Those two colors agreed what goblinoid races should be.
    If secondary colors had to be the result of mixing primary colors, that would mean that the Eastern or Northern Pantheon was the product of two others. If we accept that that isn't the case (even if only in the form of briefly setting aside crackpot theories for the sake of argument), then there's no reason to suppose that such a thing is in play in the case of the Dark One, whose aura color doesn't really require any more justification than anyone else's. (And even if it did, "It's the fully-saturated color most distinct from those already in use" is a perfectly good reason?)

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    My suspicion is that the god colours work like light - but not in relation to mixing to produce an effect - instead in that the violet (which can be easily viewed as purple for general usage such as how Thor was explaining to Durkon) is its own light colour rather then a mixture of red and blue - had Thor used violet instead of purple I suspect the idea of him being mixed colours would not be considered as frequently.
    Another member of Thor's pantheon calls it "violet", which is probably the more accurate descriptor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Also adding blue and red lights together doesn't make purple, it makes pink.
    Eh, a purple is a darker shade of the same hue, but a pink is lighter and redder. I'd call it more of a pink than a purple, but neither word fits super well. This color gets called "magenta" but it's not really that either.

    And if you want to get pedantic about color names, RGB "blue" is indigo. Blue complements orange, not yellow. And the Southern Gods do have blue auras, not indigo or cyan. We're not even working strictly with primary and secondary colors here; some of them are tertiary. Dear gods. But cyan and "magenta" are visually similar to green and red, so red-yellow-green-blue-violet is the set to work with if you want five colors that are all clearly distinct from each other to someone with normal color vision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yes but the mortals perceive them like photons so, since "colour" is a creation of mortal brains, the fact that they aren't actually photons isn't really relevant.
    Thor didn't mention "photons" at all. There's no contradiction in mortals perceiving one divine aura as red light and another as blue light but not perceiving a mixture of the two the same way that they perceive a mixture of red and blue light. Maybe a mixture of those two auras is just perceived as a mixture of red and blue rather than purple.

    So it comes down to how literally to interpret Thor's words. Before dumbing things down -- and thus, probably giving a technically accurate explanation -- he describes his aura as "What your eyes are seeing as the color yellow", suggesting that it's only the sense organs that are directly affected and data from them is thus presumably still interpreted normally, meaning no psychedelic non-purple red-blue. Aw, man...

    But dwarven color vision could very well operate on entirely different principles than human color vision. You can't prove that it doesn't!
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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I think it's been the general working assumption that the reasons you stated-- that the goblins themselves had no patron deity or pantheon before him-- are the reasons he wasn't sponsored and did it on his own, and that doing it on his own is why he has a unique quiddity.
    And as an authorial reference to the movie The Color Purple, perhaps. (And perhaps not).

    Of course, I'd really like to see what the indigo quiddity pantheon is all about ... but maybe that's the big reveal in the middle of this book!
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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    Wouldn't that be replicable, though? Create a world with a group or species that's pre-disposed to creating their own god, grant them prosperity and leave them to their own devices, and let them sort it out. If it doesn't work for one world, then try again the next one. That at least suggests Thor isn't sure why it happened, since he's not expecting to be able to recreate it.
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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    What is interesting about Dark One is, purple is not only his quiddity, it's also his skin color. So, he was different from other goblins since beginning
    and there is something weird and unusual about him.
    Gods are also shaped by the belief of their worshippers (see Thor's comment about using to be ginger). I figure that the Dark One not looking like any one specific goblin subrace is because he's worshipped by them all and rather than being constantly pulled between goblin and hobgoblin and bugbear, he looks like all of them and none of them at the same time.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Quiddity is based around the Munsell colour system, where purple is a principal hue (alongside green, blue, yellow and red). That's a fact.
    I went and looked into it; it might not be FOR SURE, but it lines up really well with the Quiddities we've seen. I'm headcanoning this for the time being.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    Gods are also shaped by the belief of their worshippers (see Thor's comment about using to be ginger). I figure that the Dark One not looking like any one specific goblin subrace is because he's worshipped by them all and rather than being constantly pulled between goblin and hobgoblin and bugbear, he looks like all of them and none of them at the same time.
    He was still purple before he became a god though.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    He was still purple before he became a god though.
    I don't own the prequel books. Are those scenes of him as a mortal actual flashbacks or an illustrated retelling by Redcloak or another goblin? If it's the latter, obviously they'd describe the Dark One as purple skinned because that's part of their belief.

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    Default Re: Why the Dark One has a unique quiddity

    I don't have the books close to dormitory, but I rememver it being in crayons.

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