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    Default Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Meant to be more than a bit crack-headed, and not at all a fair commentary on who Elan is now as a person (let alone meant as ammo for the Evil/Good Character Wars). Just my idle bemusement, wondering if they were cast from the same archetype.

    Waaaaay back when, a friend and fellow Les Miserables fan pointed out to me: Cosette is actually the root cause of most of the misery in the story (despite generally being innocent of any agency therein, and written as universally lovable). She gets a happy ending... but she's pretty much the only one, as you might have guessed from the title.
    Spoiler: Spoilers for Les Miserables, if anyone is curious.
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    Apologies to anyone who's only familiar with either the book or the musical. Below is kindofa confusing mix of both.
    • Her conception is the reason Fantine's story boils down to "🎶 I had a dream my life would be, so different from this hell I live in"
    • Fantine's fate leads to Valjean being exposed as an ex-convict by the extremely-LN Inspector Javert. He gets a grossly-unjust death sentence, which is "graciously" commuted to life in a brutal prison.
    • Valjean had become the mayor and benefactor for an entire region. The factory he built is shuttered and the region suffers. (Badly enough to catch the govt's attention, but certainly not enough for them to consider the cause.)
    • Valjean miraculously escapes and rescues Cosette from the Thenardiers. This sets up Thenardier to expose him to Javert a decade later, but Valjean narrowly escapes.
    • Marius falls in love with her on sight, and his life starts going off the rails.
    • This breaks the heart of Eponine, the beloved "angel with a dirty face" character. She's long known Marius will never love a gutter-dweller like her, but held out hope anyway.
    • Thenardier and his gang plan to rob and kill Valjean and Cosette, while Marius and Cosette are in the garden besotted with each other and unaware. Eponine, knowing Marius will blame her, forces the gang to leave but will now likely starve in the gutter as a result.
    • Afraid Javert is about to recapture him, Valjean plans to take Cosette to England for safety (not knowing about Marius). Cosette tells Marius, but hides Marius' existence from Valjean. In despair, Marius goes to the barricade to get killed and nearly succeeds. Despite Cosette's efforts Valjean finds out about Marius and rescues him, with both almost dying in the process. Eponine does get killed protecting Marius.
    • Valjean exposes his past as a convict to Marius, and the not-quite-as-LN-as-Javert-but-close Marius decides to shut him out of Cosette's life. Cosette complies, and by the time Marius realizes he was a fool Valjean is all but dead from despair. The only consolation is that he gets to see Cosette before dying.


    I happened to remember that convo, and it occurred to me you could make a similar list for Elan.
    Spoiler: collapsed for space
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    • The harms that resulted from Elan blowing up Dorukan's gate are still playing out. Charitably you could say "He was curious and didn't think it would hurt", uncharitably you could say "He blew up a dungeon full of sentients for lulz."
    • He almost gets the party killed rescuing him, because he doesn't think about what will happen if he sticks around in the bandit camp to make out with the hot sorceress (despite being able to escape).
    • In the Azure City battle Elan stands around waiting for arrows to hit him, and Roy takes three arrows in the butt to pull him under cover. This makes Roy use his last healing potion, which might have been enough to keep him alive if he drank it during the fall from Xykon's dragon then rolled low on damage.
    • Therkla, just Therkla. She's actually what reminded me of Eponine.
    • And so on, but I guess I don't want to make another long list after all. (^_^)°

    Cosette and Elan are guaranteed a happy ending (panel 9), but it often seems to be at the expense and/or through the sacrifices of others. (Despite a complete lack of malevolent intent.)
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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    MWaaaaay back when, a friend and fellow Les Miserables fan pointed out to me: Cosette is actually the root cause of most of the misery in the story
    Yeah, I don't buy that.

    Spoiler: Spoilers for Les Mis
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    For starters, Valjean is exposed because a different man is arrested for his crimes. Valjean struggles whether he should speak out (and be condemned) or stay silent (and be damned as the other man gets his sentence). Cosette doesn't come into that.

    Oh, and several other people in Les Mis get a happy ending, including Thénardier and Marius. And, argubably, Valjean... because he is redeemed and that's the whole point of the story.


    Likewise, you can't claim that Elan is the root cause of most of the misery, unless you've forgotten about the Familicide spell, or somebody distracting Soon when he was about to kill Xykon, or Tarquin deciding to run an evil empire for sh*ts and giggles, or
    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    Lirian deciding to let Xykon and Redcloak live


    Looks like we've got plenty of misery around that Elan (and Cosette) had nothing to do with. Besides, the Oracle didn't say that nobody but Elan will get a happy ending: it's pretty obvious that Elan's happy ending will include Haley; and it seems likely (speculation speculation) that Roy and Durkon will get one with Celia and Kudzu, respectively.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2021-04-21 at 09:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    As I said, meant to be more than a bit crack-headed. My apologies for giving the impression that it was meant as commentary on anyone's worth as a person, Good/Evil, and whatnot.

    Not to mention failing to realize, how is anyone supposed to parse that someone hopes to be taken seriously when they say they're not trying to be taken seriously? That's not far afield of the Epimenides Paradox. XD
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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    I'm not sure the comparison holds up, but even if it did, I don't really think Cosette caused any events in Les Mis, except maybe her romance with Marius.

    Sure, she was heavily involved in the plot, but Fantine, Valjean, Javert, Thenardier, Marius, and Eponine all did the things they did because of their own personalities and character. Eponine is a perfect example: you said she was heartbroken by Marius's pursuit of Cosette, but that she'd already realized this long ago and was setting herself up for disappointment. If that's the case, can you really say Cosette caused that? Or did Eponine cause it, and Cosette just happened to be involved?

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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Well Elan grew up in an inn so it checks out.
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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I'm not sure the comparison holds up, but even if it did, I don't really think Cosette caused any events in Les Mis, except maybe her romance with Marius.

    Sure, she was heavily involved in the plot, but Fantine, Valjean, Javert, Thenardier, Marius, and Eponine all did the things they did because of their own personalities and character. Eponine is a perfect example: you said she was heartbroken by Marius's pursuit of Cosette, but that she'd already realized this long ago and was setting herself up for disappointment. If that's the case, can you really say Cosette caused that? Or did Eponine cause it, and Cosette just happened to be involved?
    If it helps add context, she hated Cosette on principle -- but even for her, it was at least half-joking to pull outlandish reasons to blame Cosette out of her bum. ("Yeah, Cosette really puts the mis[ery] in Les Mis".)

    Somehow, some of our character denunciations reminded me of that. (^_^)°


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Well Elan grew up in an inn so it checks out.
    Ha ha, nice! (^_~)b

    And had a sibling figure abusing him just because.
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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    This is a maybe bit of an aside, but IMO the Javert=LN description does him a great disservice.

    Spoiler
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    As best I remember the musical, his core, deeply held belief is that the Law is Good. His extreme devotion to the Law is not because he thinks the world needs to be orderly... it's because he's devoted to Good, and believes the Law is Good.

    Javert's character arc is practically a Paladin stereotype: the narrative forces him to come to realization that Law and Good can conflict with each other... and he can't deal with it.

    Javert's role in the plot is through being extremely L on the structure axis his alignment -- but I think it's inaccurate to take that to mean he's N on the moral axis.

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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    This is a maybe bit of an aside, but IMO the Javert=LN description does him a great disservice.

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    As best I remember the musical, his core, deeply held belief is that the Law is Good. His extreme devotion to the Law is not because he thinks the world needs to be orderly... it's because he's devoted to Good, and believes the Law is Good.

    Javert's character arc is practically a Paladin stereotype: the narrative forces him to come to realization that Law and Good can conflict with each other... and he can't deal with it.

    Javert's role in the plot is through being extremely L on the structure axis his alignment -- but I think it's inaccurate to take that to mean he's N on the moral axis.
    Spoiler: The musical does a pretty good job of capturing Hugo's spirit in the book... but because of time constraints, it leaves a lot up in the air that Hugo nails down. I have to stand by my description, if Victor Hugo is the authority.
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    In one sense, we sort of agree that Javert is not Lawful Neutral -- I think a better description would be Lawful Extreme, or Lawful Moot. Until the very end he doesn't even consider what Hugo calls "the true conscience", only Law as the "false".

    Good and Evil don't enter into it, except inasmuch as I think we agree that Javert defines Law as Good. But Hugo lays out that when you do so, you're excluding any true consideration of Good and Evil.

    Law can and does coincide with Good. But it also can and does coincide with Evil, as Tarquin proves. Convincing yourself that your actions are Good because they're Lawful, doesn't make them actually Good... plenty of historical figures whose names we speak with horror did the same.

    The code he lived by was in fragments in his hand. He was confronted by scruples that were utterly strange to him. He could no longer live by his lifelong principles; he had entered a strange new worlld of humanity, mercy, gratitude and justice other than that of the law. He contemplated with horror the rising of a new sun -- an owl required to see with eagle's eyes. He was forced to admit that kindness existed...
    He was forced to admit that infallibility is not always infallible, that there may be error in dogma, that society is not perfect, that a flaw in the unalterable is possible, that judges are men and even the law may do wrong. What was happening to Javert resembled the de-railing of a train -- the straight line of the soul broken by the presence of God. God, the inwardness of man, the true conscience as opposed to the false...
    So then -- and in the extremity of his anguish everything that might have corrected this impression was lost, and society and humankind assumed a hideous aspect -- then the settled verdict, the force of law, official wisdom, legal infallibility, all dogma on which social stability reposed, all was chaos; and he, Javert, the guardian of these things, was in utter disarray. Was this state of things to be borne? It was not.
    If Law is not by definition Good, and one can commit great Evil in the service of Law (as he is starting to realize he has done, not just Good), he would rather die than accept the "chaos" in which anything matters other than Law.

    About Javert's jubilation at having the power to kill Fantine and destroy Valjean in the name of "justice" grown monstrous, Hugo says:
    Yet in this outrageous St. Michael there was a greatness that could not be gainsaid. He was terrible, but he was not ignoble. Integrity, sincerity, honesty, conviction, the sense of duty, these are qualities which, being misguided, may become hideous, but they still retain their greatness; amid the hideousness, the nobility proper to the human conscience still persists. They are virtues subject to a single vice, that of error. The merciless but honest rejoicing of a fanatic performing an atrocious act still has a melancholy claim to our respect. Without knowing it, Javert in his awful happiness was deserving of pity, like every ignorant man who triumphs. Nothing could have been more poignant or more heartrending than that countenance on which was inscribed all the evil in what was good.

    Hugo is very careful not to portray Javert as driven by Evil. But he certainly doesn't portray Javert's actions as driven by Good, either. Just driven by fanatical dedication to Law.
    His mental attitude was compounded of two very simple principles, admirable in themselves but which, by carrying to extremes, he made almost evil -- respect for authority and hatred of revolt against it.

    I wonder, if Hugo had played D&D, would he have defined Javert as Lawful Tragic? Or maybe Lawful Hubris? In the section the first quote is taken from, he describes Javert as being obedient to his superior the Prefect of police or else he would resign... but now that he's conscious of his higher superior (God/conscience), "how does one resign from God?"
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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Hugo is very careful not to portray Javert as driven by Evil. But he certainly doesn't portray Javert's actions as driven by Good, either. Just driven by fanatical dedication to Law.
    So that makes him... Lawful Neutral! That's what the term means
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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?
    Now that's an example of Betteridge's law if I've ever seen one.
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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Spoiler: The musical does a pretty good job of capturing Hugo's spirit in the book... but because of time constraints, it leaves a lot up in the air that Hugo nails down. I have to stand by my description, if Victor Hugo is the authority.
    Show

    In one sense, we sort of agree that Javert is not Lawful Neutral -- I think a better description would be Lawful Extreme, or Lawful Moot. Until the very end he doesn't even consider what Hugo calls "the true conscience", only Law as the "false".

    Good and Evil don't enter into it, except inasmuch as I think we agree that Javert defines Law as Good. But Hugo lays out that when you do so, you're excluding any true consideration of Good and Evil.

    Law can and does coincide with Good. But it also can and does coincide with Evil, as Tarquin proves. Convincing yourself that your actions are Good because they're Lawful, doesn't make them actually Good... plenty of historical figures whose names we speak with horror did the same.

    If Law is not by definition Good, and one can commit great Evil in the service of Law (as he is starting to realize he has done, not just Good), he would rather die than accept the "chaos" in which anything matters other than Law.

    About Javert's jubilation at having the power to kill Fantine and destroy Valjean in the name of "justice" grown monstrous, Hugo says:

    Hugo is very careful not to portray Javert as driven by Evil. But he certainly doesn't portray Javert's actions as driven by Good, either. Just driven by fanatical dedication to Law.

    I wonder, if Hugo had played D&D, would he have defined Javert as Lawful Tragic? Or maybe Lawful Hubris? In the section the first quote is taken from, he describes Javert as being obedient to his superior the Prefect of police or else he would resign... but now that he's conscious of his higher superior (God/conscience), "how does one resign from God?"
    Wow, not to diss on a very accomplished writer or anything, but I don't personally like Hugo's writing style at all. He just writes sentence after sentence saying the same thing over and over, even when he's succinctly and evocatively said it already! I've always regretted never reading the book but now I'm not sure I'd be able to stomach 700+ pages of that prose style.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-04-22 at 09:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Wow, not to diss on a very accomplished writer or anything, but I don't personally like Hugo's writing style at all. He just writes sentence after sentence saying the same thing over and over, even when he's succinctly and evocatively said it already! I've always regretted never reading the book but now I'm not sure I'd be able to stomach 700+ pages of that prose style.
    Old times' standards. In general, novels from the 18th and 19th centuries tends to come across as very verbose (exceptions exist, of course), as does a lot of stuff from the early 20th century, because that was the standard of the time.

    I personally like it, but I'm a very verbose person myself.

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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    Old times' standards. In general, novels from the 18th and 19th centuries tends to come across as very verbose (exceptions exist, of course), as does a lot of stuff from the early 20th century, because that was the standard of the time.

    I personally like it, but I'm a very verbose person myself.
    Additionally, there were economic factors that pushed novels towards longer and longer lengths - serialization meant that writers got paid by installment, and so they had an incentive to stretch out the story as long as they could. And of course, some readers would pick up a magazine and find a story when it was on, say, Chapter 20, so adding in some redundancies helped new readers to figure out what was going on and jump in without having to find the issue where the very first chapter was published.

    Long novels made sense from a consumer’s point of view, too. People liked getting longer books because it led them to feel that they were getting more for their shilling, franc, etc. Buying books could take up a significant portion of a literate layman’s discretionary income, and reading them took up a significant portion of his (or her) time, so buying a longer book meant better value for his or her money and time, since not all of the costs of producing a book increased proportionately with page count.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2021-04-22 at 11:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Additionally, there were economic factors that pushed novels towards longer and longer lengths - serialization meant that writers got paid by installment, and so they had an incentive to stretch out the story as long as they could. And of course, some readers would pick up a magazine and find a story when it was on, say, Chapter 20, so adding in some redundancies helped new readers to figure out what was going on and jump in without having to find the issue where the very first chapter was published.

    Long novels made sense from a consumer’s point of view, too. People liked getting longer books because it led them to feel that they were getting more for their shilling, franc, etc. Buying books could take up a significant portion of a literate layman’s discretionary income, and reading them took up a significant portion of his (or her) time, so buying a longer book meant better value for his or her money and time, since not all of the costs of producing a book increased proportionately with page count.
    Also, they didn't have TV driving everyone's attention spans off of a cliff. (^_~)
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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Additionally, there were economic factors that pushed novels towards longer and longer lengths - serialization meant that writers got paid by installment, and so they had an incentive to stretch out the story as long as they could. And of course, some readers would pick up a magazine and find a story when it was on, say, Chapter 20, so adding in some redundancies helped new readers to figure out what was going on and jump in without having to find the issue where the very first chapter was published.

    Long novels made sense from a consumer’s point of view, too. People liked getting longer books because it led them to feel that they were getting more for their shilling, franc, etc. Buying books could take up a significant portion of a literate layman’s discretionary income, and reading them took up a significant portion of his (or her) time, so buying a longer book meant better value for his or her money and time, since not all of the costs of producing a book increased proportionately with page count.
    If I recall correctly Victor Hugo is the runner-up for "longest sentence in French literature" because of that.

    Meanwhile he's also co-holder of the title of "shortest telegraphic exchange" along with his publisher.

    The exchange was about the early sells of Les Misérables and was as follow.

    Hugo: ?
    Publisher: !


    So I guess the moral of the story is "don't underestimate the influence of money on somebody's writing style."
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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Also, they didn't have TV driving everyone's attention spans off of a cliff. (^_~)
    If TV is to blame for prose fiction learning to get to the point, then I would like to shout TV's praises from the highest of mountaintops please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    If I recall correctly Victor Hugo is the runner-up for "longest sentence in French literature" because of that.

    Meanwhile he's also co-holder of the title of "shortest telegraphic exchange" along with his publisher.

    The exchange was about the early sells of Les Misérables and was as follow.

    Hugo: ?
    Publisher: !
    That's an absolutely fantastic exchange!

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    Default Re: Was Elan actually Cosette from Les Miserables in a previous life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    If I recall correctly Victor Hugo is the runner-up for "longest sentence in French literature" because of that.

    Meanwhile he's also co-holder of the title of "shortest telegraphic exchange" along with his publisher.

    The exchange was about the early sells of Les Misérables and was as follow.

    Hugo: ?
    Publisher: !


    So I guess the moral of the story is "don't underestimate the influence of money on somebody's writing style."
    My favorite translator (Norman Denny) had this to say in the preface, in which he characterized "extravagance" as being both the book's greatest flaw and strength: "[Hugo] was wholly unrestrained and unsparing of his readers. He had everything to say and more than everything; he was incapable of leaving anything out. The book is loaded down with digressions, passages of moralizing rhetoric and pedagogic disquisitions."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    If TV is to blame for prose fiction learning to get to the point, then I would like to shout TV's praises from the highest of mountaintops please.
    For my part, I'm a subscriber to horseshoe theory: Extremes are almost invariably harmful, and the mirror opposite of a harmful extreme is rarely a good thing.
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