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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    I had the idea for a hobgoblin serving as ďmilitary advisorĒ to the ruler of a small principality, whose army is now winning a series of improbable victories against larger neighbors. For now the hobgoblin is advising from the shadows, but itís a question of whether he or the ruler betrays the other first.

    Iíd like the hobgoblin to be an experienced battlefield commander in his own right, but Iím not sure what class would fit. I donít want him to be a spellcaster, but Iím not sure what martial classes would be good for both front-line fighting and sinister manipulation.

    Iím open to suggestions from all official Paizo material, not just classes but feats and archetypes if they seem appropriate.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    Investigator. Good at combat, a ton of skill points, and the Empiricist archetype that lets him key all kinds of manipulative skills off intelligence (his primary).
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    Maybe add in Assassin/Master Spy, plus leadership for a network of spies and assassins? Maybe also ranger with favoured enemy whatever race the ruler is?
    Last edited by Particle_Man; 2021-04-21 at 03:51 PM.

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GreatDane's Avatar

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    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    Fine-tuning the request:

    • Experienced battlefield commander means you're probably looking for something with full BAB? Of course, there are plenty of partial-BAB classes that can handle themselves in a fight, but we have to narrow it down a little.
    • Sinister manipulation means points for those Charisma skills, plus maybe a few class features to support schmoozing or sneaking.

    Almost any build would benefit from 1 level in Rogue, for the extra skill points and access to all of their class skills.

    After that, I like Ranger for its full BAB and six skill points/level. Warblade and Swordsage from Tome of Battle are also prime candidates. Warblade has fewer skill points (4/level) but has Intelligence synergies for all the clever scheming. Swordsage has the six skill points/level and maneuvers that lend themselves to stealth, but it needs to lean on its maneuvers to make up for the 3/4 BAB.


    Edit: Missed that we're looking at Pathfinder. I still think Ranger holds up, but beyond core I don't have enough experience to make recommendations.
    Last edited by GreatDane; 2021-04-21 at 05:09 PM.
    Currently running: Shackled City!

    Characters I've played for more than three sessions:
    [3.5] Ephraim Therele (CG gray elf focused transmuter 4/Master Specialist 3/Loremaster 2)
    [3.5] Gandrin "Thunderfingers" Melifar (LG gnome illusionist 3/Master Specialist 3/Shadowcraft Mage 5)
    [PF] Reglay Pent (N human conjurer 15 + Archmage 2)

    Campaigns I've run: Mummy's Mask, Age of Worms, Red Hand of Doom, Kingmaker, Guardians, Rising Dawn

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    Vigilante maybe? Something like Imperial Agent to lead the Kingdom toward a particular enemy.

    Lots of social stuff, and you can go full BAB or more rogue-like. Well-known Expert social talent alone is probably enough to get the Military Adviser position.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

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    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    What about playing...a Vizier Mesmerist?

    I genuinely think this archetype is great, in terms of both flavor and power.

    Edit: I missed the "no spellcasting" clause, but I think an Occult caster might sidestep the "Hate stupid Elf magic" tendency hobgoblins have. They like Alchemy after all.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2021-04-21 at 07:07 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    If you want to emphasize "experienced military commander," then you could go with cavalier. The Order of the Cockatrice would probably be the best order to pick since it pretty much requires you to be greedy and self-serving. Archetypes will mostly come down to whether you want the hobgoblin to have a mount or not (or perhaps a small personal army if you choose Daring General).

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Midwest, not Middle East
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    Why betray the ruler? Will be harder to usurp control than leave a figure head in place, and if he can steer the ruler into the wars he wants anyway what is the benefit?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    Some good suggestions here, thanks.

    The build will be eighth level, and Iím thinking the final two levels will be Dandy ranger, which is an archetype that fits my social needs perfectly.

    For the first six levels, Iím torn between slayer and samurai. Comparing the two, the samurai seems to have a bit of an edge. The slayer has more skill points and a better selection of class skills, but the samuraiís resolve looks like a nice feature, and I like the free proficiency with katana and naginata.

    The only trouble is the mountóit doesnít really fit with my idea of the character, and most of the (very few) samurai archetypes donít trade the mount for anything Iím interested in. The Sword Saint is a possibility, but Iím not sure how a Sword Saint samurai stacks up against, say, a Vanguard slayer at sixth level.

    Any thoughts on how these two compare?

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    Have you considered a cavalier, they have some command-related class features, a moderate charisma focus and 4+int skills.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    Originally Posted by Thunder999
    Have you considered a cavalier, they have some command-related class features, a moderate charisma focus and 4+int skills.
    Samurai is a variant cavalier, and fits my concept a little better.

    Still not sure how Samurai 6 stacks up against Slayer 6, although Iím leaning samurai at this point.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

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    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Class & Archetypes for a Hobgoblin Vizier?

    In terms of battlefield command, a Vanguard Slayer is quite a bit better. Samurai aren't really made for team play as much as base Cavalier.

    One thing a Samurai has over a Cavalier or Slayer is the Ironbound Sword. It basically just turns you into a Fighter/Samurai gestalt character; you can have full progression class features from both classes.

    So you could be a Samurai (Ironbound Sword) 3/Fighter (Seasoned Commander) 5 and have your cake and eat it too. He's a Samurai with the Cavalier's Tactician ability, plus Inspire Courage and 4 skills/level on all of his levels.

    Toss on Sovereign Blade to yeet the Mount class feature and get a bit of a thematic bonus to saves against [Opposing Alignment of Choice].
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2021-04-23 at 07:04 PM.

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