3/4ths BAB? (works for S'sage but not Monk?)

[Townopolis]

I'm wondering about 3/4ths BAB, specifically with regards to melee characters. I can understand how it works and doesn't on bards and rogues and the like, but what about main fighter types?

To start with, we have the monk. Infamous for his signature "flurry of misses" ability, with which our faux-far-east friend shadow boxes at the enemy. On the other hand, we have the swordsage, who has the exact same BAB as the monk, but manages to be an effective combatant. Next to him, we have our friend the psychic warrior, who is better than the full BAB fighter at hitting and killing things.

My question in it's simplest form is: Why does 3/4ths BAB work for swordsages, but not for monks?

Also, a follow up, is TWFing with 3/4ths BAB really viable, or does it only work when you're sneaking or have a nice full BAB (Assuming TWF is houseruled to be reasonable effective, but still incurs the -2 penalty to attack).

[Solo]

Short answer: Monks don't get enough compensation for their poor BAB.

[Ozymandias]

Because Swordsages get a variety of techniques and abilities that are useful in combat, and Monks get variety of techniques and abilities that are useful in wuxia movies.

[Behold_the_Void]

Slightly longer answer: Monks get a bunch of lackluster abilities that don't mesh well with each other at all. Swordsages get a bunch of awesome maneuvers that give it amazing versatility and general usefulness.

[AstralFire]

TWFing isn't worth it if you don't have full BAB, unless the class you're leveling in provides automatic benefits to it. If there's no such built-in synergy, you're usually wasting your feats, IMO.

The Swordsage gets away with 3/4s BAB since he gets free weapon focus and a host of tactical maneuvers and stances, many of which come with a bonus to hitting stuff. The monk does not, since the monk relies entirely on full round actions to flurry and fighting humanoid-type opponents of Large or smaller size to grapple/stun.

The games I DM which have mostly PC races as enemy encounters tend to be significantly better for a monk than the ones where you start fighting huge stuff.

[ocato]

Swordsages and Psychic Warriors get abilities that enhance their attacks. Monks are more reliant on throws, trips, and stuff where BaB is very important. Lacking some BaB when you manifest a bunch of abilities and hit the guy like a two-ton psychic doomtrain or use a bunch of stance/maneuver combinations to shuryuken sneak attack the guy into next week (a temporal realm, mind you, that is entirely composed of both hellfire and discomfort) is not a big deal.

[tyckspoon]

A Swordsage can count on his maneuvers to provide damage, so he doesn't have to worry about the fact that he can't hit very much with iterative attacks. He also doesn't have to worry about Power Attacking, so he can generally count on applying his full BAB to scoring a hit. 3/4 BAB isn't too bad if you're only trying to make one hit, and only trying to make one hit isn't bad if that one hit can really achieve something. The difference between the monk and the swordsage is that maneuvers allow the swordsage's one hit to be useful, and the monk's generally isn't.

[AstralFire]

shuryuken sneak attack the guy into next week (a temporal realm, mind you, that is entire composed of both hellfire and discomfort) is not a big deal.

I love this line. <3

[Quietus]

A Swordsage can count on his maneuvers to provide damage, so he doesn't have to worry about the fact that he can't hit very much with iterative attacks. He also doesn't have to worry about Power Attacking, so he can generally count on applying his full BAB to scoring a hit. 3/4 BAB isn't too bad if you're only trying to make one hit, and only trying to make one hit isn't bad if that one hit can really achieve something. The difference between the monk and the swordsage is that maneuvers allow the swordsage's one hit to be useful, and the monk's generally isn't.

Although, in the Monk's defense, as of level 11, they do get three attacks at their highest base (four, if hasted). Of course, they need to make a full attack to get these.

[Zincorium]

Because a swordsage isn't expected to grapple, disarm, and full attack like a monk is.

As a whole, maneuvers are going to be the best option at least 90% of the time, until the swordsage has run out or there are unique circumstances that require a specific action. Many maneuvers are skill based, and 3/4 BAB does not inhibit this.

Lastly, other than the total -5 to hit gradually accumulated by 20th level, the main disadvantage of low BAB for melee characters is that it limits power attack. This is bad for fighters and barbarians. It's not so bad for martial adepts, because generally a hit with a maneuver is better than a bit more damage and the chance of wasting it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Because Swordsages get a variety of techniques and abilities that are useful in combat, and Monks get variety of techniques and abilities that are useful in wuxia movies.

LOL

[Aquillion]

You forgot Psiwars in the OP. They're another good 3/4th BAB meleer (technically they're psionic, of course, but 99% of their psionic abilities just support them in combat.)

Mainly, yeah, Psiwars get things that can decently make up for the missing BAB... they get Psionic Lion's Charge to let them make more full attacks (and boost their damage when they do); they get mobility boosters they can use freely like Hustle and Personal Dimdoor (unlike the monk's 1/day abundant step), which they can use in combination with Psionic Lion's Charge for actual mobility; and they get several abilities that can raise their to-hit when they need to make up for the missing BAB, often usable as a swift action. Plus they get several fighter bonus feats.

One of the big problems with the monk isn't its low BAB but its reliance on fighting barehanded to use several key abilities, which keeps it from getting good benefits from Power Attack. For classes who don't get really good abilities like the Swordsage, Power Attack with multipliers for a two-handed weapon is the main source of melee damage... it's weaker with low BAB, but it's nearly useless without that two-handed weapon multipler. And monks don't get anything decent to replace it with.

[Rachel Lorelei]

To sum up, the swordsage is fine with 3/4s BAB while the monk isn't, because Swordsages rule, Monks drool.