OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Keltest]

Woo, new comic!

Although, in 999, it seemed you called the god of monsters Fenrir rather than Fenris. I assume theyre intended to be the same?

[Skull the Troll]

New comic is up.

Love this! I am really seein g the giants quote about Fantasy being useful for how it reflects upon the real world. This may be the best explanation I've seen for privilege.

[Neoriceisgood]

I love Minrah, she's great.

[RMS Oceanic]

Huh, I never interrogated how much I took the Goblin version of events at face value. It's nice to see another perspective on the thing. Not to mention a divine mea culpa.

[MoonCat]

Publishing to stop fiddling hits very hard on today, the deadline of my thesis.

[Shale]

Judging from how that discussion went, I think Durkon might need to bring along a couple of Ibram X. Kendi books the next time he Communes...

[SlashDash]

That last line was hysterical :D

Interesting, I didn't expect Durkon to get a confirmation of the story so quickly.
I wonder what his next move will be. Honestly I expected some third party to be a mediator.

[Ivrytwr]

A shout-out from Thor, yeah Minrah!
Thanks Giant!

[UtahBrian]

What does it mean that he made the green ones medium? Are they supposed to be larger than other goblins now, because they look the same size?

[The Giant]

Woo, new comic!

Although, in 999, it seemed you called the god of monsters Fenrir rather than Fenris. I assume theyre intended to be the same?

Yes, historically they've both been used in various translations/contexts. I didn't go back to check which one I had previously picked. Maybe I'll fix it but it's not really wrong per se.

[Alaris]

What does it mean that he made the green ones medium? Are they supposed to be larger than other goblins now, because they look the same size?

Green Goblins in DND 3.5 (which this is somewhat based on) are usually Small-Sized.

It has been pointed out a number of times on the board here, so I imagine this is Rich poking fun at it.

[Schroeswald]

What does it mean that he made the green ones medium? Are they supposed to be larger than other goblins now, because they look the same size?

In D&D green goblins are small sized, but in OOTS to make them more of a threat the Giant drew them the same size as humans and elves (aka, medium), just a little joke about one of the changes from traditional d&d

[dancrilis]

Nice to see the debate answered in the comic - so word of a god is that goblins were not delibrately screwed over (wonder what this means on the whole no gods before the Dark One element).

What does it mean that he made the green ones medium? Are they supposed to be larger than other goblins now, because they look the same size?

They are normally small in DnD.

[Shining Wrath]

So Fenris made the goblins, but they don't worship him any longer? Does Fenris have any opinions on this? Does it make him weaker?

Also, why do the goblins live outside the Northern Pantheon's demesne if a NP god created them?

Anyway, the natural order of things is the stronger eating the weaker, and the entire OOTS universe is built upon that principle. Even vegans are preying upon defenseless plants, and so on. If the entire principle is unavoidable, then the lot of the goblins is more Fenris' design fault than it is of the good gods or the "good" races. I doubt very much Redcloak will buy that argument.

So - what can Durkon say to Redcloak that is persuasive based upon this conversation with Thor? Not much.

Minrah is having a Belkar moment.

[RMS Oceanic]

What does it mean that he made the green ones medium? Are they supposed to be larger than other goblins now, because they look the same size?

In official 3.5, green goblins are small sized. Fenris/r has houseruled this.

[Zhorn]

Very much enjoyed the meta humour here.
Loving the work as always, Giant.
Huge fan

[Shining Wrath]

Yes, historically they've both been used in various translations/contexts. I didn't go back to check which one I had previously picked. Maybe I'll fix it but it's not really wrong per se.

Clearly, the right answer is Fenri. He's Fenri the 8th after 7 previous monster-gods didn't get enough worship.

[Dragonus45]

Huh, who could have guessed that the Dark Ones interpretation of event as presented to Redcloak was inaccurate...

Sarcasm aside this goes way past that, to the point I now have to wonder if the Dark One knows how wrong he is or if this is just him manipulating his clergy.

[Pampukin]

Holy social commentary (pun intended) I had not expect Durkon to be the one complaining about an injust system, our bearded boy has grown so much.

[hroþila]

Very surprised that Redcloak is not essentially right on this. On the other hand, when the Dark One was raised the other gods attempted to convince him that everything was actually fair, and their arguments weren't very convincing. It's possible that Thor is kinda doing the same here, but the vibe I get from this comic is that Thor is being both truthful and accurate.

I dunno, I just think the less right Redcloak is about the goblinoid question, the less of a compelling villain he is. And I'm not sure that's for the best. But still, let's see how this goes - I doubt we've heard the last on this topic.

[Xihirli]

In D&D goblins are generally Small, but Redcloak and the other goblins are taller than Durkon, even though Dwarves are generally Medium sized. This panel was poking fun at the fact that the strip doesn't quite follow D&D rules. Or at least not the more well known versions.

Spoiler: Size Categories

Show

Tiny
Small
Medium
Large
Huge
Gargantuan

A question I have is regarding the creation of goblins, the "turn order," and what we know about the Quiddities. If only one god (Fenris) is responsible for creating the goblins, are they one-color beings? Or is the process of "taking turns" more complicated than that, and Fenris got to design and make the model of goblins but the other gods had to put power into them to make them "real"?

[Dragonus45]

Nice to see the debate answered in the comic - so word of a god is that goblins were not delibrately screwed over (wonder what this means on the whole no gods before the Dark One element).

It means the statement is flat wrong, they did have a god before the Dark One, he just got bored of them and left them hanging.

[Keltest]

Yes, historically they've both been used in various translations/contexts. I didn't go back to check which one I had previously picked. Maybe I'll fix it but it's not really wrong per se.

I like Fenris better personally. But i also like the idea that in-universe they also just genuinely cant remember his name.

[hroþila]

It means the statement is flat wrong, they did have a god before the Dark One, he just got bored of them and left them hanging.

No, it means a god created them, which we already knew even though we didn't know it was Fenriʀ. It doesn't mean the goblinoids ever worshipped him.

And yes obviously the solution to the Fenrir/Fenris problem is to write it as "Fenriʀ", with a kind of retroflex z transitioning into r.

[RMS Oceanic]

It means the statement is flat wrong, they did have a god before the Dark One, he just got bored of them and left them hanging.

Not necessarily? I don't think every personal creation of a god is set to worshiping them by default. Also it sounds like they've made fantasy goblins before.

[Shining Wrath]

In D&D goblins are generally Small, but Redcloak and the other goblins are taller than Durkon, even though Dwarves are generally Medium sized. This panel was poking fun at the fact that the strip doesn't quite follow D&D rules. Or at least not the more well known versions.

Spoiler: Size Categories

Show

Tiny
Small
Medium
Large
Huge
Gargantuan

A question I have is regarding the creation of goblins, the "turn order," and what we know about the Quiddities. If only one god (Fenris) is responsible for creating the goblins, are they one-color beings? Or is the process of "taking turns" more complicated than that, and Fenris got to design and make the model of goblins but the other gods had to put power into them to make them "real"?

Those are the 5e size categories. 3.5 has more, as you might expect - 9.

[EDIT]: On the quiddities - I think gods have quiddity, mortals do not. The world has 3 quiddities because there are only 3 pantheons left. But dwarves are not yellow quiddity because Thor made them, any more than the goblins are yellow because Fenri made them

[Shale]

Very surprised that Redcloak is not essentially right on this. On the other hand, when the Dark One was raised the other gods attempted to convince him that everything was actually fair, and their arguments weren't very convincing. It's possible that Thor is kinda doing the same here, but the vibe I get from this comic is that Thor is being both truthful and accurate.

I dunno, I just think the less right Redcloak is about the goblinoid question, the less of a compelling villain he is. And I'm not sure that's for the best. But still, let's see how this goes - I doubt we've heard the last on this topic.

I don't think Thor being truthful about the gods' motives/methods makes Redcloak wrong in any way that really matters. Whether or not they specifically created goblinoids as fodder races, the pantheons still made a universe whose fundamental laws provide material incentives for sapient beings to kill each other, and didn't see structural inequities as a problem worth balancing for. Somebody was almost assuredly going to get the short end of that stick, and whoever it was would have a valid grievance against the gods who set it up so that would happen, even if they left the exact outcome up to chance.

[Xihirli]

Very surprised that Redcloak is not essentially right on this. On the other hand, when the Dark One was raised the other gods attempted to convince him that everything was actually fair, and their arguments weren't very convincing. It's possible that Thor is kinda doing the same here, but the vibe I get from this comic is that Thor is being both truthful and accurate.

I dunno, I just think the less right Redcloak is about the goblinoid question, the less of a compelling villain he is. And I'm not sure that's for the best. But still, let's see how this goes - I doubt we've heard the last on this topic.

I can see this. It's still true that the goblins were thrown into a disadvantageous position by the twin factors of being created with access to fewer resources and then not receiving the same guidance and help as the other races of their intelligence level.

And it's true that Goblins were created explicitly as monsters, as Fenris is the god of monsters. And as part of the mechanics of this world, monsters do exist for heroes to kill and gain xp. That's accurate.

It's also true that at least some of the gods hate goblins. Don't have the strip number memorized, but one of Thor's illustrative flashbacks has a god dismissively calling the Dark One "that goblin" in a context suggesting that him being a goblin makes negotiating with him beneath that god's dignity.

Redcloak believes

• The goblins were created as monsters
• Monsters exist as xp farms for the "heroes"
• The gods have a bias against goblins
• All of these are contributing factors to the goblins' state as less fortunate in general than other humanoids.

And all of those, as we've just learned, are correct.

[Robots]

Update!

Ooooh, very interesting. I don't have much to say, but I'm excited for what's going to come next. Very intriguing.