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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    So don't do it poorly.
    But who will bell the cat?
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Which will attract dragons (who are attracted by wealth).
    I feel personally attacked.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-05-03 at 03:23 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #993
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I feel personally attacked.
    I think the best reason why dragons hoard wealth I saw was in the comic book Raghnarok. Raghnarok (a dragon child) goes to visit his grandmother and spots a human fleeing with a bag full of gold.
    Raghnarok: Nana, nana! I just saw a hman escape with your gold!
    Grandmother: I saw him, what, do you think I'm blind?
    R: And you're just going to leat him get away with it?
    G: It's just the one human, it's not worth the exercise. Besides, I've got plenty of gold left.
    R: But, think! Once the humans know you're just letting them take your gold, they'll come by dozens and -
    R: *Realization*
    *Cut to later as dozens of human mindlessly rush inside Grandmother's lair while chanting "gold" repeatedly*
    R: You did it on purpose! That was a lure!
    G: *Licking her lips, with a towel tied around her neck* Call it an investment.
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  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Exactly! The white guy is like “Oh, wait a second partner! I admit I knew it would happen, and I knew I would benefit from it, and I did nothing to stop it.”
    Panel 11, "We didn't really plan it that way on purpose...but I guess we didn't really prevent it, either."
    So Thor does not admit that he knew it would happen or that he knew he would benefit from it, only that he did nothing to stop it because it never crossed his mind.

    “But it’s just so pejorative for you to say I share in the responsibility. And let’s try keep the focus on what’s important here. What’s important is the rude way you phrased it. “
    Redcloak does not say that the gods share in the responsibility, he says it's entirely their fault because they did it on purpose, which again, they didn't do it on purpose and is the only thing Thor is defending. Not if he shares in the blame, but if it was an intentional move on his part against the goblins. Why blame him for something he didn't do (intentionally **** over goblins), and when it's perfectly fair to blame him for something he did do, that he doesn't even deny (**** over goblins through negligence)?

  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I think the best reason why dragons hoard wealth I saw was in the comic book Raghnarok. Raghnarok (a dragon child) goes to visit his grandmother and spots a human fleeing with a bag full of gold.
    Raghnarok: Nana, nana! I just saw a hman escape with your gold!
    Grandmother: I saw him, what, do you think I'm blind?
    R: And you're just going to leat him get away with it?
    G: It's just the one human, it's not worth the exercise. Besides, I've got plenty of gold left.
    R: But, think! Once the humans know you're just letting them take your gold, they'll come by dozens and -
    R: *Realization*
    *Cut to later as dozens of human mindlessly rush inside Grandmother's lair while chanting "gold" repeatedly*
    R: You did it on purpose! That was a lure!
    G: *Licking her lips, with a towel tied around her neck* Call it an investment.
    This idea occurs in "The hoard of the Gibbelins" by Lord Dunsany, the Gibbelins probably aren't dragons (they live together for one). There may be something earlier.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I feel personally attacked.
    1. Given that I mentioned blue, not silver, not getting this.
    2. It's canon. (Unless you never played D&D)
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  7. - Top - End - #997
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomReader View Post
    Panel 11, "We didn't really plan it that way on purpose...but I guess we didn't really prevent it, either."
    So Thor does not admit that he knew it would happen or that he knew he would benefit from it, only that he did nothing to stop it because it never crossed his mind.
    You are right. I’ve probably gone overboard here.

    Regardless, Thor doesn’t deny what Durkon says. Thor adds more nuance, and it’s clear that he views the situation as more negligence than malice.

    But at the end of the day, creating an ecosystem where everyone harvests xp really was the goal. And it didn’t bother any of the gods that the goblins found themselves in an undesirable niche in that ecosystem.

    I know if I found myself in the goblin slot of that ecosystem, and if I found out the ecosystem was essentially designed that way, I would be pissed.

    Probably not burn the world down and kill the gods pissed, but I’ve never had big goals.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-05-03 at 10:57 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    1. Given that I mentioned blue, not silver, not getting this.
    2. It's canon. (Unless you never played D&D)
    Yes, but I think I'm funny.
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  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    You are right. I’ve probably gone overboard here.

    Regardless, Thor doesn’t deny what Durkon says. Thor adds more nuance, and it’s clear that he views the situation as more negligence than malice.

    But at the end of the day, creating an ecosystem where everyone harvests xp really was the goal. And it didn’t bother any of the gods that the goblins found themselves in an undesirable niche in that ecosystem.

    I know if I found myself in the goblin slot of that ecosystem, and if I found out the ecosystem was essentially designed that way, I would be pissed.

    Probably not burn the world down and kill the gods pissed, but I’ve never had big goals.
    When the only reason you refrain from mass deicide is that it's too ambitious for your tastes.

    But yeah, I feel like Redcloak's main point still stands. The gods might not have created goblins with the explicit intention of turning them into XP bags, but by Thor's own admission they didn't do anything to prevent the formation of an ecosystem where a sapient race is treated as a resource by the rest.

  10. - Top - End - #1000
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, but I think I'm funny.
    Heh, I often crack a joke that amuses me, and my wife will give me the old
    "I am glad that you can crack yourself up, since I don't find that funny"
    thing.
    Aah, married bliss.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  11. - Top - End - #1001
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Heh, I often crack a joke that amuses me, and my wife will give me the old
    "I am glad that you can crack yourself up, since I don't find that funny"
    thing.
    Aah, married bliss.
    My wife and I have two simple rules, (1) if the other one's lips are moving, assume they are being snarky, (2) dark chocolate is always an appropriate gift for every occasion.

  12. - Top - End - #1002
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    (2) dark chocolate is always an appropriate gift for every occasion.
    This is a profound truth of life.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  13. - Top - End - #1003
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    This is a profound truth of life.
    What if the occasion is "too much dark chocolate"?
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  14. - Top - End - #1004
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    What if the occasion is "too much dark chocolate"?
    Clearly you should give it away until that's no longer an issue then
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    What if the occasion is "too much dark chocolate"?
    If you ever experience that problem, then I'll be happy to take the excess off your hands.

  16. - Top - End - #1006
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    Specifically they say "He's supposed to be jolly," and the assumption is that it refers to the halfling race because of how halflings are portrayed in other, non-oots media.

    I think it'd be interesting if they were originally designed to be a jolly wholesome race but, having free will, this did not in fact make them "a jolly race." Not that jolliness has much to do with good.
    "Awwwww, the jowwy widdle hawfwing wuvs his widdle cat! How cute!"

  17. - Top - End - #1007
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    "Awwwww, the jowwy widdle hawfwing wuvs his widdle cat! How cute!"
    That is a stronger indication that it's connected in some way to the halfling race.

    But, it might not be connected because it's true, and jolly still doesn't mean good.

    By RAW, halflings are Usually Neutral, but an evil character can have just as high spirits. Belkar isn't un-jolly because he does murder, he's un-jolly because he does murder because he's angry.
    Last edited by Good Coyote; 2021-05-04 at 08:35 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #1008
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    That is a stronger indication that it's connected in some way to the halfling race.

    But, it might not be connected because it's true, and jolly still doesn't mean good.

    By RAW, halflings are Usually Neutral, but an evil character can have just as high spirits. Belkar isn't un-jolly because he does murder, he's un-jolly because he does murder because he's angry.
    I can't see any reason why that guard would have referred to Belkar as "jolly" in connection with any observations of the latter. Sarcasm, perhaps, but for that to make sense, it would have to play against a normal expectation of being jolly.
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2021-05-04 at 09:49 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    I can't see any reason why that guard would have referred to Belkar as "jolly" in connection with any observations of the latter. Sarcasm, perhaps, but for that to make sense, it would have to play against a normal expectation of being jolly.
    I actually agree that it's more likely that it's to do with perceptions of the halfling race, since otherwise it's just coincidence that the guard happened to choose that particular word, which isn't common elsewhere. Also, I already agreed with the assumption that it was about all halflings.

    I said stronger indication because it is theoretically possible that it was a coincidence, since the guard is clearly doing a baby talk mocking of Belkar. He's not particularly cute based on observation either. (In this sense, anyway, he's apparently fairly charismatic.)

    It's not really important though because everything else I said was assuming it's true that there is a perception of halflings as jolly.

  20. - Top - End - #1010
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    Lightbulb Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    So, the crusade - or at least part of it - of the Little Bald Man With Red Cape is based on a false premise. Pretty interesting. I don't think that he will believe if someone tell him, of course, but maybe can shake his faith in The Dark One.

    "I have no feelings on viewing you. You are largely irrelevant."
    "Yeah, a lot of that early stuff doesn't hold up"
    "Yeah, Yeah. You're a very clever boy."
    "…My reasons are my own."

  21. - Top - End - #1011
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Dragon View Post
    So, the crusade - or at least part of it - of the Little Bald Man With Red Cape is based on a false premise. Pretty interesting. I don't think that he will believe if someone tell him, of course, but maybe can shake his faith in The Dark One.
    Pretty sure he'd just say that this only means the gods were oblivious/apathetic instead of malicious and that the goblinoids still have been shafted.

  22. - Top - End - #1012
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    Pretty sure he'd just say that this only means the gods were oblivious/apathetic instead of malicious and that the goblinoids still have been shafted.
    Yeah at this point, the reasons why are a bit of a moot point, people like something done about their injustices rather than people just sitting around being accurate about it. Sure its more accurate, but until you got a solution thats not going to help all that much.

    I doubt the whole "everyone's got to eat and its a whole ecosystem" will really get through to Redcloak either, as its sounds like a survival of the fittest kind of thing and he is Lawful Evil trying to extremist ends for a cause of equality. to him that would probably the very kind of thing that Xykon revels in and Redcloak likes to think of himself as not being like Xykon, no matter how untrue one may think it is.

    the thing that could give him pause though is the whole "we can't do widespread changes once the world's made" thing. because it makes his demands for the deities to give the goblins equality without destroying the world pretty much impossible. that or basically forces him into causing the world's destruction. though considering that he is going through this whole plan for one outcome or the other and just destroying the gates to force the gods to remake the world is easier to his perspective because it would mean to him that the Dark One gets have a say in the next world, he must be holding out some hope of the negotiations going through and divine change in this world being possible, or he wouldn't bother waiting for the heroes to destroy the gates he'd just sabotage or destroy them himself in ways that can't be traced back to him- heck, he wouldn't need Xykon for any of this if that was his goal, he'd just force all the gates destruction.

    but thats not what he is doing. all this time he has been holding out hope that negotiations ARE possible and that the deities CAN change things without destroying and remaking the world without any proof of that being possible over something more known and quantified. a very idealistic hope for someone like him. he and O-Chul have an entire conversation about how he bet the longshot and how its the heroes who keep destroying the gates to prevent him, when really lets think about this:
    -say Redcloak and Xykon succeeded at Lirian's Gate before any of this happened. what would've occurred? the gods would simply say "yeah we hear you, but we literally are unable to meet your demands, because we lock ourselves out of widespread changes once the world's done being created. its apart of the rules so we don't fiddle with it mid-world and potentially cause another snarl". Redcloak would realize its all for naught.......but we don't know what TDO's reaction would be.

    all of this is ignoring what TDO is actually intending to do with the Gate once he has one. We just assume he is telling the truth about the negotiation bit, but he is literally formed from the beliefs of like, war hatred and vengeance towards the Northern Gods from the corpses of a million goblins, and goblin culture emphasizes a lot of "do what I say and don't ask questions" mentality that Redcloak embodies both ways, both not question his leaders orders while giving orders that his underlings don't question not realizing that they either sacrifice them or have purposes that aren't always to their benefit.

    I have a simple theory, and that is: TDO doesn't intend to negotiate or bluff. He just intends to straight up murder the Northern Gods with the Snarl in revenge, figuring he can take over the entire pantheon to replace them with his quiddity and gain a bunch of belief from the former followers of the Northern Gods through fear. after all if a bunch of former northern god believers pray to TDO "Don't kill us" that counts as belief that could sustain him. nothing says he has to gain enough followers to get to the next world by making nice or only from goblins. after all, if he can use the snarl as a weapon of fear against the gods.....why not the mortals as well? that is a plan that is perfectly in keeping with a LE alignment, with his backstory and motivations. the whole negotiation part may just be a lie that was told to Redcloak and the goblins so that they would go along with this.

    but if the gods can't actually make any changes to the world once its done? that lie comes crumbling down and Redcloak might go to TDO to check in with him on that, because without that hope, the one Redcloak has been shooting for rather than just destroying the gates to force a world remaking with more equal goblins....well...he either realizes that he has been lied to or devotes himself to this all so that TDO can gain a bunch of followers through fear, oppress them with goblins at the top.

    its either that, or TDO berates Redcloak for abandoning Gobbotopia and thinks the Plan is stupid when they already got a good thing going with that. thats really the only two ways I can see this shaking out due to the "Don't screw this up" message. assuming Jirix isn't lying through his teeth and TDO said something about this that Redcloak really should've heard hundreds of pages ago.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I have a simple theory, and that is: TDO doesn't intend to negotiate or bluff. He just intends to straight up murder the Northern Gods with the Snarl in revenge, figuring he can take over the entire pantheon to replace them with his quiddity and gain a bunch of belief from the former followers of the Northern Gods through fear. after all if a bunch of former northern god believers pray to TDO "Don't kill us" that counts as belief that could sustain him. nothing says he has to gain enough followers to get to the next world by making nice or only from goblins. after all, if he can use the snarl as a weapon of fear against the gods.....why not the mortals as well? that is a plan that is perfectly in keeping with a LE alignment, with his backstory and motivations. the whole negotiation part may just be a lie that was told to Redcloak and the goblins so that they would go along with this.
    TDO doesn't have a special beef with the Northern Pantheon, he has an equal beef with all, so your suggestion might as well be "kill all other pantheons" with the Snarl.

  24. - Top - End - #1014
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I have a simple theory, and that is: TDO doesn't intend to negotiate or bluff. He just intends to straight up murder the Northern Gods with the Snarl in revenge, figuring he can take over the entire pantheon to replace them with his quiddity and gain a bunch of belief from the former followers of the Northern Gods through fear. after all if a bunch of former northern god believers pray to TDO "Don't kill us" that counts as belief that could sustain him. nothing says he has to gain enough followers to get to the next world by making nice or only from goblins. after all, if he can use the snarl as a weapon of fear against the gods.....why not the mortals as well? that is a plan that is perfectly in keeping with a LE alignment, with his backstory and motivations. the whole negotiation part may just be a lie that was told to Redcloak and the goblins so that they would go along with this.
    [Sighs.] And guess what? The author happens to disagree:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

    2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

    3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

    4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

    The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

    That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.
    Emphasis mine. Basically, you are suggesting that the Giant is lying and Big Purple is incredibly dumb. I don't really like either of those theories.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Emphasis mine. Basically, you are suggesting that the Giant is lying and Big Purple is incredibly dumb. I don't really like either of those theories.
    Is it lying if you're an author trying to preserve suspense for a work you haven't finished yet and so you don't tell your readers everything you know about the real plan?
    Or if you change your mind after you wrote something and the plot ends up going a different way than you first thought it would?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Is it lying if you're an author trying to preserve suspense for a work you haven't finished yet and so you don't tell your readers everything you know about the real plan?
    Or if you change your mind after you wrote something and the plot ends up going a different way than you first thought it would?
    Yes, if an author gives a detailed clarification on a subject which he knows to be incorrect, that's lying by definition. Also, explaining things like this does not preserve suspense (since the readers stop being on high alert).
    As for the other question, it would appear that the Giant has had a fairly clear picture of what the overarching plotline is going to look like for a long-long time, and I very strongly doubt that he would have changed his mind about something as important as this is during the course of the last two years just because "yeah, the explanation I gave makes all kinds of sense but if I throw it all out and it'll turn out the Dark One was simply retarded all along that will be such a TWEEEEST!"
    At any rate, theories that contradict the Word of the Giant have precious little weight as far as I am concerned, and unless you want to seriously debate whether Thor is the Snarl and Fruit Pie is the only being powerful to stop him in time and save the world or not, you shoulp perhaps care a bit more about the author's statements.

  27. - Top - End - #1017
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Is it lying if you're an author trying to preserve suspense for a work you haven't finished yet and so you don't tell your readers everything you know about the real plan?
    Or if you change your mind after you wrote something and the plot ends up going a different way than you first thought it would?
    When an author tries to preserve the suspense of their work they do so by being intentionally vague about it, not giving a detailed explanations about how it works and then later on have it work completely differently instead. Of course, an author could give an intentionally wrong explanation to throw people off, but that would be lying.

  28. - Top - End - #1018
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    When an author tries to preserve the suspense of their work they do so by being intentionally vague about it, not giving a detailed explanations about how it works and then later on have it work completely differently instead. Of course, an author could give an intentionally wrong explanation to throw people off, but that would be lying.
    See "vague prophecy that technically turns out true" vs "no, the guy was just lying despite everyone acting like it was the truth, including those who would suspect it might be false".
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
    -Squire Doodad

  29. - Top - End - #1019
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    [Sighs.] And guess what? The author happens to disagree:



    Emphasis mine. Basically, you are suggesting that the Giant is lying and Big Purple is incredibly dumb. I don't really like either of those theories.
    Wait what, there is no mystery? Aaaaaw, I thought it was unknown, I don't read his quotes. man. thats a bummer. Now I have to revise.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-05-13 at 03:11 PM.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  30. - Top - End - #1020
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ruck's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    I don't think it's unreasonable to think Rich would fudge the truth a bit to preserve spoilers or suspense, but I also don't think he's doing so here, for the reasons stated about what the Ritual actually does. The Dark One can't kill all the gods with it, he can only move the gate once to another plane-- and as some of you have said already, his grievance is with all of them, not just the Northern ones. It's probably a safe assumption that he knows what his own Ritual does, and thus the threat of using it to unleash the Snarl would be more effective than actually using it.

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