OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

[Ganbatte]

Make no mistake: like Redcloak, the goblins and hobgoblins here are a force for evil. Perhaps they were mistreated in the past but that doesn't excuse, justify, or mitigate anything they do now. Maybe the entirety of their species aren't evil and they are not be mindless monsters who are evil incarnate, but if they are like Redcloak or take after him in any way, they are past all reason and have to be treated as such. Force is the only language most of them understand. Just look at what happened when Redcloak was approached for a simple parley. Durkon attempted to reason with him and he nearly died.

This is actually interesting, I didn't consider the goblin's actions when they captured Azure City.
Not just Redcloak's, but literally every other goblin there seemed completely on board with all sorts of tortures and sick games played on humans.
Not even one of them objected or showed any empathy or sympaty towards the prisoners, even if they were -once- enemies.

And I don't think that if the reverse happened the humans would've acted the same way, never batting an eye when faced with cruelty.

They might actually be just an evil race, perfectly fit to be fodder.

[dancrilis]

I think you're assuming a lot about the math here.

The math wasn't really meant to be correct more it was used as an example of what I was thinking - a different one would be someone has two kids and gives them both X of the local currency, one kid marries young and has 20 kids the other marries late and has 2.
Assuming equal investment of the money, parently distribution of resources at an equal level etc the then one set of grandkids end up 10 times better off then the others based on this.

Even if Thor had moved to have equality of resources between Dwarves and Goblins at the start the goblins would still end up poorer individually over time and I doubt that 'hey instead of being 5 times worse off then a Dwarf you can be 2 time worse off then a Dwarf - and in a couple of centuries it will be back to 5 times' is a real selling point for Redcloak even if it could be redressed now.

Effectively if I was in the position of Thor at the start of the world and I took an interest in goblins I might have done the following.
---------------------------
Thor(to the dwarves): And that is how an honour system works and why you should have one to avoid Hel, phew who is next - ah the Goblins got messed over by Fenris I can help with that.

Thor(to the goblins): Look this is going to sound harsh but if you don't get your act together sharpish you are in a lot of trouble, effectively you breed quick and die quick which will make getting resources difficult and if you get to have to high a population before you can handle it you will face starvation and need to raid others which will turn people against you and cause you lots of societal problems.
But don't worry I have a plan that will sort you out - you lack resources and have a high population but if you put your high population to work you can come out well, you will have a lot of INT 18 and WIS 18 individuals who can learn science and engineering these skills (and other) will allow you to get more from less focus on agriculture, fishing, roads etc - if you master those things and exalt development and innovation you can likely outcompete anyone.
Now let me give you a firm run down of how such a society can function without turning into a dystopia.
---------------------------

Something like that only delivered with godlike wisdom, intelligence and charisma.

But the problem is that ship has sailed - Thor is not in a position to offer that assistance and the modern goblins would likely not listen to him even if he was (it is not what Redcloak wants to hear anyway).

Currently in practical terms for dealing with the issues facing goblins they have likely been solved or are in the process of being solved - Gobbotopia having claimed land and began trading achieved much of what Redcloak wants, finding isolated tribes of goblins (like Oona's) and trading with them helps goblins all over the world.

There doesn't seem to be any current problem that the Goblins have that they need Thor's help to solve (which leads me to think that Redcloak just needs to be made to see that and perhaps The Dark One needs to be put aside for him to have a change of seeing that).

[Deepbluediver]

Justice is a high bar. Not everyone is capable of it, either physically or mentally/emotionally, and that's not an indictment of their character. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it.

And what exactly IS justice? If you do wrong should you be punished for it, even if you had a bad background? At what point do you stop letting a person's (or race's) past be an excuse for their actions?
If they keep biting the hand that's trying to help, how long do should you keep attempting before it starts to hurt you and yours?

They might actually be just an evil race, perfectly fit to be fodder.

Personally I don't like to believe that there's a genetic component to morality in the Stickyverse. If the majority of goblins are evil, it's cultural. That being said, while every individual creature can ultimately choose their own outcome, if a culture is bad and has a destructive influence on it's members, then in order to convince people to be good, or to work for the greater good, then you just might have to burn their culture to the ground and replace it with something else. Of course at what point you decide to go down that path is an incredibly dicey ethical quandary, littered with so many "well intentioned" traps that it would take an incredible person to be able to navigate it successfully.

[Good Coyote]

This is actually interesting, I didn't consider the goblin's actions when they captured Azure City.
Not just Redcloak's, but literally every other goblin there seemed completely on board with all sorts of tortures and sick games played on humans.
Not even one of them objected or showed any empathy or sympaty towards the prisoners, even if they were -once- enemies.

And I don't think that if the reverse happened the humans would've acted the same way, never batting an eye when faced with cruelty.

They might actually be just an evil race, perfectly fit to be fodder.

The slave drivers of Tyrinaria behaved quite similarly. Time to kill all humans. With blackjack! And cooking!


In seriousness, hundreds of goblinoids were killed and zombified on the way, for "discipline," which would include anyone who objected to the conquest on moral grounds and couldn't keep their head down about it. Hundreds might not sound like a lot compared to the full horde (especially since not all of those discipline problems would be related to ethical concerns), but it's more goblins than we actually saw participating in torture and slavedriving afterwards.

But also, maybe I just have a dimmer view of humans, as I think it beyond plausible for that many humans to behave in such a way. Even though not O-chul, Hinjo, etc, probably.

[Fyraltari]

One I hope we get to see a conversation between The Dark One and Ferrero.

I'm usually pretty good at keeping up with the twists of argumentation, but I must confess I did not spot the moment when "Redcloak's lack of moral justification" became relevant to events that occurred at the beginning of the world, and "continued lack of events to address it" in the time since. He's not the ur-goblin.

Of course he is, don't be silly. All goblins are the same individual constantly time-travelling which is how he accrued the necessary XP to reach godhood. All dead goblins we see are just faking it.

[ziproot]

This is actually interesting, I didn't consider the goblin's actions when they captured Azure City.
Not just Redcloak's, but literally every other goblin there seemed completely on board with all sorts of tortures and sick games played on humans.
Not even one of them objected or showed any empathy or sympathy towards the prisoners, even if they were -once- enemies.

And I don't think that if the reverse happened the humans would've acted the same way, never batting an eye when faced with cruelty.

They might actually be just an evil race, perfectly fit to be fodder.

IIRC, there was a goblin who sided with the resistance but was killed.

[Schroeswald]

You don't buy your comic books in bookstores? Wild.

I probably overstated my point a ‘lil bit there, watchmen is commonly found in the little comics sections bookstores have separate from the fine art books, but when Watchmen was originally released in its serialized format it went to the dedicated comic shops of America, next to the Batmans and the Crisis of Infinite Earthses, and the comics soon to be drawn by Rob Liefeld and the official Wonder Woman figurines precisely sculpted for maximum sexiness.

[Ganbatte]

Personally I don't like to believe that there's a genetic component to morality in the Stickyverse.

Well they do have a strictly defined alignment system.

[Deepbluediver]

IIRC, there was a goblin who sided with the resistance but was killed.

Did he actually change sides though, or was he just trying to infiltrate them so he could betray them later?
I'm honestly asking here- I vaguely recall that scene only being about 1 page long, and not really exploring the issue in detail.

Well they do have a strictly defined alignment system.

Yeah, but that's so they can judge you when you die. It has nothing to do, AFAIK, with the influences on a creature while they are growing up and maturing*. Unless maybe you are raised by Paladins, I guess.

*for sentient humanoids I mean; I have no idea what goes on with dragons or other races with a racial-alignment component

[Dion]

...they are past all reason and have to be treated as such. Force is the only language most of them understand...

I don’t think we’re reading the same comic?

[Fyraltari]

They might actually be just an evil race, perfectly fit to be fodder.

I am impressed by how much you missed the point the comic is trying to convey.

That's like someone finishing Les Misérables and complaining that Valjean died a free man rather than completing his sentence.

[Jason]

I am impressed by how much you missed the point the comic is trying to convey.

That's like someone finishing Les Misérables and complaining that Valjean died a free man rather than completing his sentence.

I wouldn't call it THE point the comic is trying to convey, but one of the points. The goblinoids are generally evil, yes, but it's pretty clear that lot of this is cultural, not inherent to goblin nature. We have seen goblins who are willing to live alongside other races in peace. Mostly outside the online comic.

[Ganbatte]

Yeah, but that's so they can judge you when you die. It has nothing to do, AFAIK, with the influences on a creature while they are growing up and maturing*. Unless maybe you are raised by Paladins, I guess.

Okay but it's a representation of their standing in life.
Lawful, neutral, Evil, good etc etc, it shows the kind of person they are, even before death.

I wouldn't call it THE point the comic is trying to convey, but one of the points. The goblinoids are generally evil, yes, but it's pretty clear that lot of this is cultural, not inherent to goblin nature. We have seen goblins who are willing to live alongside other races in peace. Mostly outside the online comic.

Pretty much this.
I suppose Firaltari only tunnelvisioned that line and skipped everything else I was theoryzing (not claiming) in that post.

[Good Coyote]

Okay but it's a representation of their standing in life.
Lawful, neutral, Evil, good etc etc, it shows the kind of person they are, even before death.

I'm not sure why this suggests it's genetic (which is what the post said that you replied to, bringing up the strictness of the alignment system).

iirc, small children get defaulted in to their mother's afterlife, but only because they can't have their own alignment when so young. (Which they could have, if it was genetic, and since their father might have a different alignment, it wouldn't always be the same as their mother.)


I also don't see where you mentioned culture in your previous post? The final line didn't seem contradicted anywhere else to me.

[danielxcutter]

Hasn't Rich made his opinion extremely clear about a lot of these things? On the forum mostly, but still?

[Ionathus]

I'm usually pretty good at keeping up with the twists of argumentation, but I must confess I did not spot the moment when "Redcloak's lack of moral justification" became relevant to events that occurred at the beginning of the world, and "continued lack of events to address it" in the time since. He's not the ur-goblin.

He is the Ur-goblin if you start at "Redcloak is wrong" and derive backwards, cramming every new piece of info into that constructed assumption.

I don't think anybody in the current discussion is doing that, but I've seen it a lot further back in the thread, and in countless others.

They might actually be just an evil race, perfectly fit to be fodder.

Given that the author is on record explicitly stating that he's against labelling an entire race evil, or even putting alignment in monster statblocks, you're going to have a hard time justifying that argument.

Even if Thor had moved to have equality of resources between Dwarves and Goblins at the start the goblins would still end up poorer individually over time and I doubt that 'hey instead of being 5 times worse off then a Dwarf you can be 2 time worse off then a Dwarf - and in a couple of centuries it will be back to 5 times' is a real selling point for Redcloak even if it could be redressed now.

I might've been unclear on the 2x vs 5x thing, sorry. What I'm trying to say is that maybe the goblins were never meant to compete 1:1 with dwarves - say their higher breeding rate means that, for every 1 dwarf, there are 3 goblins. So, hypothetically, let's say each goblin is 1/3 as strong as a dwarf, so they need 3 to match a dwarf's combat abilities (we will not be talking about action economy today; please assume this is baked into the calculation already ).

Redcloak, Durkon, and Thor are all saying that, even with that 1/3 adjustment, the goblins still are at a disadvantage due to other factors. Each axe is less than 1/3 the quality of a dwarf's axe. Each meal is less than 1/3 the nourishment of a dwarf's meal. Even though the goblins have a numbers advantage, it doesn't completely make up that difference, and so they lose even in a "balanced" fight.

Currently in practical terms for dealing with the issues facing goblins they have likely been solved or are in the process of being solved - Gobbotopia having claimed land and began trading achieved much of what Redcloak wants, finding isolated tribes of goblins (like Oona's) and trading with them helps goblins all over the world.

There doesn't seem to be any current problem that the Goblins have that they need Thor's help to solve (which leads me to think that Redcloak just needs to be made to see that and perhaps The Dark One needs to be put aside for him to have a change of seeing that).

Agreed. Or at least, the solving is in process. This last comic has done a good job of answering (to me, at least) whether or not the goblinoids were actually in need of better resources to have a solid footing. Maybe they still need Thor's help in the sense of "please tell all your followers to treat us like they would treat other humanoids. Judge us all on our own merits, or an individual community's behavior, not the color of our skin." That seems to be what Redcloak was getting at earlier with the "crusade bait" comment: until the nations recognize goblinoids as real people with actual thoughts and feelings, their position is tenuous at best.

Did he actually change sides though, or was he just trying to infiltrate them so he could betray them later?
I'm honestly asking here- I vaguely recall that scene only being about 1 page long, and not really exploring the issue in detail.

It felt like the point of that scene, to me, was that he never had a chance to prove himself one way or the other. The point was that the elven commander saw a goblin, and killed him, saying "the only good goblin is a dead goblin."

You might be thinking of the hobgoblin spy, who was polymorphed as a human to infiltrate the Resistance. Which is ironic, given that they killed noncombatant hobgoblins outright but immediately accepted any "civilized" humanoid without a second thought, even though Tsukiko was a "civilized humanoid" and she betrayed them for the goblinoids anyway.

[Ganbatte]

I'm not sure why this suggests it's genetic (which is what the post said that you replied to, bringing up the strictness of the alignment system).

iirc, small children get defaulted in to their mother's afterlife, but only because they can't have their own alignment when so young. (Which they could have, if it was genetic, and since their father might have a different alignment, it wouldn't always be the same as their mother.)

I never said it's genetic, I was just correcting we do have an "element" that shows evil and goodness in no uncertain terms.

[Good Coyote]

I never said it's genetic, I was just correcting we do have an "element" that shows evil and goodness in no uncertain terms.

I see. It was confusing to me because "Personally I don't like to believe that there's a genetic component to morality in the Stickyverse." very specifically refers to genetic components to morality, and not the existence of morality or the certainty of morality. So it doesnt seem there was anything to correct, to me. Thank you for explaining.

[Fyraltari]

I wouldn't call it THE point the comic is trying to convey, but one of the points.

"The single point" maybe not. But the idea that labelling an entire people as evil is just plain wrong is a core message of this book.

Pretty much this.
I suppose Firaltari only tunnelvisioned that line and skipped everything else I was theoryzing (not claiming) in that post.

Fyraltari.

I didn't adress the rest of your post because there is nothing to adress in there. It's baseless speculation used to get to a conclusion that the comic refutes.

[Ganbatte]

Given that the author is on record explicitly stating that he's against labelling an entire race evil, or even putting alignment in monster statblocks, you're going to have a hard time justifying that argument.

I consider the evidence shown in the comic way more solid than any author's intentions stated outside of it, so I don't think I'm gonna have a hard time at all.
Note that I'm not necessarily putting forth that argument, I'm making a theory based on what the strips have shown so far with humans and other races able to put forth feelings of empathy that seemed non-existant in the goblins of Azure City.

[Fyraltari]

By the same token, the comics portray halflings as an evil race.

[Emberlily]

I consider the evidence shown in the comic way more solid than any author's intentions stated outside of it, so I don't think I'm gonna have a hard time at all.
Note that I'm not necessarily putting forth that argument, I'm making a theory based on what the strips have shown so far with humans and other races able to put forth feelings of empathy that seemed non-existant in the goblins of Azure City.

We saw by and large heartless elves in Azure City. We saw by and large heartless humans in Greysky City and Bleedingham. Are you willing to use the same brush to paint humans and elves as you do goblins, then?

We've seen openly non-evil goblins and hobgoblins elsewhere in the comic, just as we've seen openly non-evil elves and humans elsewhere in the comic.

[ziproot]

I consider the evidence shown in the comic way more solid than any author's intentions stated outside of it, so I don't think I'm gonna have a hard time at all.
Note that I'm not necessarily putting forth that argument, I'm making a theory based on what the strips have shown so far with humans and other races able to put forth feelings of empathy that seemed non-existant in the goblins of Azure City.

As I pointed out, some of the goblins did show empathy. More so than the elven general, who operates under the motto "a good goblin is a dead goblin". Speaking of which, have we ever seen any "Good" elves? Possible candidates that I remember are V's mentor, members of the Elven resistance (excluding the general), and Inkyrius.

[Keltest]

By the same token, the comics portray halflings as an evil race.

The comic, to the extent that it portrays halfings at all, calls them a "jolly" race in fact. Belkar is explicitly an exception, while Redcloak is not only the norm, but actively enforcing his views on goblin society to the best of his ability.

[Fyraltari]

As I pointed out, some of the goblins did show empathy. More so than the elven general, who operates under the motto "a good goblin is a dead goblin". Speaking of which, have we ever seen any "Good" elves? Possible candidates that I remember are V's mentor, members of the Elven resistance (excluding the general), and Inkyrius.

*Sad Veldrina noises*
Edit: She's the reason I went with halflings rather than elves.

[Ganbatte]

I didn't adress the rest of your post because there is nothing to adress in there. It's baseless speculation used to get to a conclusion that the comic refutes.

{Scrubbed}

[arimareiji]

IIRC, there was a goblin who sided with the resistance but was killed.

(snark)
See? That proves there are conditions under which goblins can be good, even the commander of Team Peregrine (?) agrees.
(/snark)

More seriously, I'm with Good Coyote. A lot of what gets pointed out as proof that goblins are irredeemably evil, has also been seen in abundance in humans, but I don't recall anyone seriously making the argument that humans are irredeemably evil. (Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, I'd be curious to see examples if they exist.)

[danielxcutter]

The comic, to the extent that it portrays halfings at all, calls them a "jolly" race in fact. Belkar is explicitly an exception, while Redcloak is not only the norm, but actively enforcing his views on goblin society to the best of his ability.

I think there were two halflings in the Greysky Thieves' Guild(including Hank), plus y'know Serini. That's about it, I think, but I could be wrong. I think there was another when Roy was climbing Mount Celestia but I don't remember.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Giving the goblins less fertile land than the humans and other civilized races (however you choose to define the term) isn't really a disadvantage, although I can see why it might superficially be seen as one.

But nobody said they got less fertile land, specifically; they said they didn't get any of the good land and you're assuming they don't know how to judge that properly.

Yes, you are right that it's a complex judgement, but I still don't see a lot of signs that goblin lands are different-but-equal. Redcloak implies a lack of mineral resources compared to dwarves.

When O'chul visits goblin lands, he is almost immediately attacked by a (CR9) roc. We might suppose Rich picked that monster for the pun, but O'Chul also explicitly explained beforehand that goblins were not the highest threat in the area. It's also indicated that the goblins do a lot of hunting and gathering, which is actually just more pleasant than farming, but requires canvasing the country side in small groups that have no hope of fighting off creatures 27 times as strong as you.

Or to put it simply, the toughest warrior races in fantasy games usually come from the toughest lands.

That's because those with the potential to become strong must realize the potential or die and those without potential are dead. Really, the dying all the time aspect is probably considered to outweigh all the advantages.

Does this mean one side is morally superior to the other?

I would argue that there's no situation where anyone should really care about the answer to that question. Did the azurites do evil and can they stop? Did the goblins do evil and can they stop? What caused the azurites and the goblins to act evilly and what can external actors do about it? Can the good gods learn to think certain things through better?

There are plenty of evil gods whose followers have done quite well for themselves, including followers of Loki, many of the gods on the Western continent (said followers live in a desert on top of that), and probably some others that I missed.

Define "doing well for themselves". Greysky seems like a @^*%-hole. The west is depicted as offering dystopias and banana republics for winners, and chattel slavery and death for losers. Going back to your video game example (from a latter post), being part of a competitive faction in an RTS isn't nothing, but strategic objectives are not happiness. For example in Warcraft III an undead commander may kill an acolyte because they need to a corpse; it's a solid strategic advantage that corpse can be so useful, but I won't want to be an acolyte.

For comparison the elves' privilege isn't that they're winning an RTS style life, it's that they're not living an RTS style life.

If goblins are the victim

Again, victimhood isn't singular, and it's not exclusive of being the perpetrator in another situation. Crimes do not cancel each other out until one party is left with a remainder of unjustified crime on their scales.

.... even if they were [victims], that doesn't excuse bad behavior on their part.

I agree 100%. But I would point out that (1) This must be applied to all sides. Being victims of goblin raids doesn't excuse Azurites' racism. Being victims of circumstance doesn't excuse the good gods from neglecting to consider things educated mortals should know. (2) Even when their are no excuses, there are still explanations, and if you want to understand/fix a problem, you need all of the explanations.

I'm also not buying the "gods treat people like crops and this is bad" bit. If your food went to heaven and enjoyed itself for all eternity after living a virtuous life, that would seem to be a very good deal for the food.

Just nitpicking here, even though I agree with your actual point. The OotS afterlife is finite, as you eventually "merge into the plane", or something.

[Fyraltari]

The comic, to the extent that it portrays halfings at all, calls them a "jolly" race in fact. Belkar is explicitly an exception, while Redcloak is not only the norm, but actively enforcing his views on goblin society to the best of his ability.

Hank and the High Priest of Loki don't strike me as particularly jolly.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

What could I say that the comic and the forum haven't said a thousand times since you've joined? These discussions keep happening and nobody seem to change their mind. I don't always have the courage to go and fill the Danaids' barrel.