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2021-04-22, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-04-22, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Wow. The comic didn't shy away from moral dilemmas before, but this is larger than anything else.
Unequal starting conditions, repeated over multiple generations, leading to grave injustices. No evil plan behind it, just ignorance of the people in power. With no clear solution in sight. I'm kind of interested in seeing how this will be resolved.
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2021-04-22, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
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2021-04-22, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
It seems to be roughly the standard, although the more pantheonistic practices of the OOTS world muddy the waters a bit.
The presentation from the Dark One described them as a patch to the system made by the gods in an offhand way, the idea a specific god had a real plan in mind for them to succeeded rather then being convenient EXP farms is news. Important news. It shows that that the god most invested in them wound up being the god least invested in any of his projects, and probably led to their resource issues in the first place.Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.
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2021-04-22, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Eh, anyone who's played a modern game knows that publication is no longer the end of the matter, however firmly it once was*.
*And that still didn't stop, e.g., Tolkien from rewriting a whole chapter of The Hobbit years after original to fit with his Lord of the Rings retcons...
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2021-04-22, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-04-22, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Northern Ireland
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Also this likely closes the door on the Gods "patching" the world to address the grievance. Honestly that makes the possible solution more interesting. How do flawed mortals deal with a flawed world?
"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
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2021-04-22, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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- East Coast USA
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I love that Fenrir is wearing Gleipnir, the chain forged from:
The sound of a cat's footfall
The beard of a woman
The roots of a mountain
The sinews of a bear
The breath of a fish
and
The spittle of a bird.
Which makes sense since Tyr is missing a hand.
However, this reading of goblinoid creation does bolster the possibility that maybe the Rat/Tiamat/Loki axis is, in fact, deliberately manipulating TDO.
Also, Minrah continues to be awesome.
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2021-04-22, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Or: if evil gods don't really care if their worshipers prosper, but good gods do, the races created by good gods will, world after world, tend come out on top.
And if cooperation among sentient beings is more successful than every-creature-for-themselves, then good-tending cultures will be more successful than evil-tending cultures. In OOTS race and alignment are not coupled, so it's a matter of culture, not race - but the god that creates a people may have some influence on their culture.
It raises the question as to whether or not a god can change alignment. Because it seems that good ought to defeat evil more often than not, and you'd think that after a hundred million billion trillion worlds Fenri would get a clue.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
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2021-04-22, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Just because a god created them doesn't mean that they ever actually worshipped him - or that he began to deny them clerics etc.
To take this quote:
It might mean: The Goblin's worshipped Fenris, he turned from them, they had no one and then The Dark One showed up.
But it could also mean: Fenris got bored on the idea even before the world was settled on and so The Goblins never even knew to worship him and so never had any god.
If the first then the question becomes why didn't they try to worship other gods to maintain clerics, if the second then did the early goblins never think to worship a god seeing them as for other races or did they try and get rejected.
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2021-04-22, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-04-22, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Valencia, Spain
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2021-04-22, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2020
Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Could this be why the Dark One and Redcloak never speak to each other? If Redcloak called Fenris would he get an answer?
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2021-04-22, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I mean "the goblins" worshipping no one before the Dark One is a cultural answer, not necessarily a scientific one. Like if I said "the Greeks" discovered... oh, I don't know, pi. It's imprecise verging on inaccurate, but to an acceptable degree where yes, there's wiggle room and Egypt was pretty close with 3.16 well before Archimedes's eureka moment.
Like Rich wasn't necessarily saying "there has never been a Goblin cleric or worshipper of any god except The Dark One," any more than saying "Northerners do not worship the Twelve Southern Gods" would mean that no single Northerner has ever done so. It's a cultural answer, with the implied "culture is messy and there are exceptions" going along with it.Spoiler: Check Out my Writing!
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2021-04-22, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Who said anything about worship? I totally believe that Fenris started his twelve more projects before he even got to the "establish goblin religion" phase of things. Just because their god abandoned them early on doesn't change that they had one who gave them a very poorly thought out game plan "age fast and breed a lot" and then wandered off to go do something else when it came time to talk over where to plant all the various races and resources.
Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-04-22 at 08:53 AM.
Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.
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2021-04-22, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
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2021-04-22, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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2021-04-22, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Also I suspect individual goblins would have drifted to this or that deity, but the main community would have been left without one to rally around until the Dark One. I don't think Rich means no goblin ever worshiped anyone before him.
"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
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2021-04-22, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Knoxville Tennessee
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.
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2021-04-22, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Well, no not really. Goblins were created as monsters. This strip confirms that by both having Fenris make them and the line "[Fenris makes goblins] and then turns his attention to the more 'fun' monsters." Word of god (little g) confirming that yes, from the birth of their race goblins were monsters. And monsters do exist for the heroes to kill for xp.
It's a more complicated answer, but Redcloak and the Dark One's gripes agains the gods are accurate. They're true. They're just imprecise and missing context.Spoiler: Check Out my Writing!
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2021-04-22, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
And it’s nice to see they are absolutely 100% screwed over, and TDO is 100% absolutely positively correct even if wasn’t technically “deliberate”.
So now we’re done with the debate forever and ever. The goblins were intentionally designed as XP fodder. They got the worse lands because literally none of the gods cared about them. The gods gave them a short brutal life intentionally. Word of god. Done.
Ha ha ha ha. No, just kidding. We should argue.Last edited by Dion; 2021-04-22 at 09:03 AM.
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2021-04-22, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
So what's that about equity options?
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2021-04-22, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2021
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- TX
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
If you know any OOTS liveblogs or similar reactions that aren't dafukdidiwatch or mindareadsoots, please message me with them. I am starved of OOTS reaction content.
Also anyone analyzing it or using it as an example for something like thewebcomicsreview does sometimes. I just need more OOTS content.
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2021-04-22, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Everyone was created as a monster, we are all in the manual after all and we all give exp when stabbed. The gods as a whole turn out not to be a giant finger on the scales of goblin life actively working to keep them down. That matters a lot.
It's a pun as both an investment term, for if you want the chance to buy a stock but want a bit and don't want to be obligated to buy it, and presumably also uses equity as it tends to be juxtaposed with equality when talking about how to handle issues of race. Very creative.Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-04-22 at 09:04 AM.
Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.
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2021-04-22, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Star Wars, seafood, Lord of the Rings.
*
Think Durkon's side is stronger. Thor somewhat comes off a little like "well, we personally didn't do it ourselves, but we stood by and let the god who always did it do his thing per usual." It's not malice, but it's sort of like bystander syndrome.
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2021-04-22, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I don't know if that's true. For one thing, the goblins are still to some degree victims of injustice. It's simply an unintentional injustice rather than an intentional one. From a certain point of view, i.e. The Dark One or Redcloak, what the gods intended is academic and the injustice remains. Redcloak himself also remains the victim of personal injustice at the hands of the old Sapphire Guard, so even if his cosmic motivations prove less than true, his personal ones are still fresh in his mind (even though he has more than paid them back at this point).
On top of all this, there's always been plenty of evidence to suggest that The Dark One is an unreliable narrator who's not merely misunderstood. Right Eye certainly had no respect for him, seeing him as petty, spiteful, and willing his own people as nothing more than weapons in his war against the other gods.
But for all that, Durkon still seems unconvinced by even his beloved Thor's explanation, so you're probably right that the matter is far from closed, and we can't just give the gods a full pass on this.
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2021-04-22, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Spoiler: Check Out my Writing!
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I post short stories in the middle of every month, and if you want to follow my novels as they’re edited and written, you can join as a patron!
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2021-04-22, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Technically he is, since D&D never really defines "monsters". Shame he can't keep track of anything.
I wonder how much actually interfering they are generally even allowed to do? Especially since the recurrence of goblins as a concept probably means they are a pet project of his and the "this changes everything" line probably means they have tried to talk to him about it at some point and he was defending the choices.Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.
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2021-04-22, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I know it's a personal perception thing, but this revelation doesn't take away from Redcloak's story for me. I like how it adds the wrinkle that injustice can happen, even when nobody intentionally decides to screw the marginalized groups over. People look for moustache-twirling villains all the time, and that fixation can make you miss the "unintentional injustices" that happen out of the spotlight, just because nobody cares all that much about the wronged party.
Durkon taking Thor to task over this was pretty satisfying. Really appreciate how he said "that's not really a no."
Agreed, this is really getting into some deep ethics stuff. And what's more, is handling it quite well.
Worth noting that goblinoids are depicted as very cooperative groups, with rigid social structures and large settlements. Cooperation is not restricted to Good civilizations.
As for Evil always being the sub-optimal choice: Thor did mention last comic that there are worlds where being Evil has loads of advantages.
Oh, give it 5 seconds, I'm sure we'll think of something.
EDIT: Ninja -
I agree with this completely! Whether or not oppression/injustice is intentional isn't particularly comforting from the viewpoint of the oppressed.Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-04-22 at 09:16 AM. Reason: less topical language
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2021-04-22, 09:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I realize it amuses me that most of the Dwarves have the Scottish accent but Thor and Odin none at all.
Minister of sarcasm and pragmatism of the Grayview fanclub.
No, none of us were altering the unimutable laws of physics. That would be wrong.