OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

THe goblins are also "mostly evil"

People keep saying this, and yet, the Giant has been very and repeatedly explicit about how he views that kind of prescriptive alignment to an entire race. (Really, I could have linked every post of his in that thread.)

[ziproot]

I was going to say that the goblinoids outnumber the humans, but do they?

EDIT:

People keep saying this, and yet, the Giant has been very and repeatedly explicit about how he views that kind of prescriptive alignment to an entire race. (Really, I could have linked every post of his in that thread.)

Why not link it to your signature?

[Ruck]

Why not link it to your signature?

Eh, I keep signatures turned off, so I don't really much think to link things I wouldn't see if I was viewing someone else's post.

(Also, if I was going to put anything in my signature, it would probably be this.)

[Ganbatte]

People keep saying this, and yet, the Giant has been very and repeatedly explicit about how he views that kind of prescriptive alignment to an entire race. (Really, I could have linked every post of his in that thread.)

"When the man with a bunch of forum quotes meets the man with a single strip link, the man with a bunch of forum quotes is a dead man"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html

Jokes aside, that's why people keep saying that.

[Aquillion]

"When the man with a bunch of forum quotes meets the man with a single strip link, the man with a bunch of forum quotes is a dead man"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html

Jokes aside, that's why people keep saying that.

I think that that's from very early on when OOTS was more about making jokes about D&D than telling a coherent long-term story. It's meant to be mocking the idea of an Always Chaotic Evil race, not establishing that that's how it works in the OOTS-verse.

[Rrmcklin]

Even if we do assume they're "mostly evil" that still wouldn't mean the injustices aren't real. And it would do nothing to change the fact that "even if you're not evil, most of your race is, so there's nothing wrong with preemptively killing you" any less abhorrent. Seriously, V's character arc is almost defined by rejecting these notions, so I'm honestly not seeing how this is still an argument.

Honestly, I'm still confused how some people are still reading this comic. It's one thing to not agree with a writer on everything, but it just seems like such pretty fundamental disagreements on the points he's very clearly making would impact your enjoyment. I certainly don't keep reading things once I've come to the conclusion that the work supports beliefs I vehemently disagree with/find objectionable.

[Ruck]

I think that that's from very early on when OOTS was more about making jokes about D&D than telling a coherent long-term story. It's meant to be mocking the idea of an Always Chaotic Evil race, not establishing that that's how it works in the OOTS-verse.

I mean, yeah-- that strip is before #100, the point at which the Giant has said he started forming and telling the actual long-term story of OOTS.

But aside, if that strip (and if interpreting it to mean "In OOTS goblins are Usually Neutral Evil so it's fine that they suffer unjustly") outweighs the actual story being told and everything in the strip since, let alone what The Giant actually says about the story he is trying to tell, then...

Honestly, I'm still confused how some people are still reading this comic. It's one thing to not agree with a writer on everything, but it just seems like such pretty fundamental disagreements on the points he's very clearly making would impact your enjoyment. I certainly don't keep reading things once I've come to the conclusion that the work supports beliefs I vehemently disagree with/find objectionable.

...I agree, and I don't mean that in a "anyone who doesn't like the strip should leave" way. I mean that that kind of interpretation, or the insistence that the rules as written are 100% applicable to the story regardless of what is written in the story, seems like they still want a story that strictly adheres to D&D rules and reflects how an actual campaign would be played, and OOTS hasn't been that for a long time.

[Ganbatte]

I think that that's from very early on when OOTS was more about making jokes about D&D than telling a coherent long-term story. It's meant to be mocking the idea of an Always Chaotic Evil race, not establishing that that's how it works in the OOTS-verse.

Oh totally, but it's why people keep mentioning that. They do have a reason for it.

[ziproot]

"When the man with a bunch of forum quotes meets the man with a single strip link, the man with a bunch of forum quotes is a dead man"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html

Jokes aside, that's why people keep saying that.

Oh shoot, I did not notice that.

EDIT: Though according to RAW, "usually neutral evil" simply means a majority of goblins are neutral evil. That could be anywhere between 50%+1 and 100%-1 (as 100% would be always neutral evil). There's a big difference between "about half of goblins are evil" and "almost all goblins are evil".

EDIT 2: Upon further examination, 100%-1 would count as always neutral evil. "Usually neutral evil" ends at the point where the exceptions are "unique or rare". I think an example would be a deva, who is always good due to literally being made out of pure Good.

[danielxcutter]

Classifications are weird. Half-fiends don’t have the Evil subtype, yet are Always Evil. Meanwhile Cambions, which are like 5/8 fiend, are only Usually Evil. And yes, Cambions have the Evil subtype.

[Good Coyote]

By RAW,

Gnomes are Usually Neutral Good.
Elves (other than Drow) are Usually Chaotic Good or Usually Neutral, dependent on subtype.
Dwarves (other than Deep, Derro, Duergar) are Often (not Usually) Lawful Good.*
Halflings are Usually Neutral.

All the typical PC races have some tag of "these people are at least as or more likely to be non-evil than your average coin toss."

....except humans. Maybe they really are Goblins Plus. (Or is that Goblins Lite...)

* "Often Lawful Good" is the other side of usually lawful good, it means about 40-50% Lawful Good, versus the 50-60% of usually. So if you assume that the rest of the dwarves are evenly split between other alignments, then they're still more likely to not be Evil.

But it occurs to me that it's quite possible for a race to be both Often Lawful Good and Usually Chaotic Evil if they tended almost exclusively to extremes. Alignment is weird.

[Jason]

Even if we do assume they're "mostly evil" that still wouldn't mean the injustices aren't real.

But are they injustices?
What if the truth is that right at the creation of the world the goblins had just as much good land and resources as any other species, and they were totally onboard with Fenris' plan to dominate the world by force. So they marched out their armies against humans, elves, and dwarves...and lost fair and square. Fenris threw up his paws and abandoned the goblins to go play with other monsters, and the demihuman nations vowed never to let the goblins become a threat again, so they took their good land by force and forced them into marginal areas where they could never generate the numbers to become a threat again, but refrained from wiping them out completely because their gods tell them genocide is bad. But the demihuman nations continue to keep the goblins in the badlands of the world because the goblins continue to prove that given the chance they will become a threat again by raiding demihumans whenever they have the opportunity.

The ultimate cause of the goblin's current marginal existence in this case would then be: A) Fenris, who pushed them hard to conquer the world, and B) the goblins themselves for going along with his evil plan and refusing to give up raiding the demihumans. Their current state would in that case be a result of justice, not injustice.
Prove you cannot be trusted to play nice with your neighbors and you only have yourself to blame when they refuse to trust you.

[Emberlily]

Something that this thread is bringing to light is that as many good examples of goblinoid life we see in the book material, the online comic itself probably does need some more examples. It's hard for me to see how it is with just the online material because I tend to reread from the books, but a lot of people who don't have them take a look at what the online comic shows and seem to draw vastly different conclusions from what is clearly his intent when you take all material into consideration, and that's probably a sign.

[georgie_leech]

But are they injustices?
What if the truth is that right at the creation of the world the goblins had just as much good land and resources as any other species, and they were totally onboard with Fenris' plan to dominate the world by force. So they marched out their armies against humans, elves, and dwarves...and lost fair and square. Fenris threw up his paws and abandoned the goblins to go play with other monsters, and the demihuman nations vowed never to let the goblins become a threat again, so they took their good land by force and forced them into marginal areas where they could never generate the numbers to become a threat again, but refrained from wiping them out completely because their gods tell them genocide is bad. But the demihuman nations continue to keep the goblins in the badlands of the world because the goblins continue to prove that given the chance they will become a threat again by raiding demihumans whenever they have the opportunity.

The ultimate cause of the goblin's current marginal existence in this case would then be: A) Fenris, who pushed them hard to conquer the world, and B) the goblins themselves for going along with his evil plan and refusing to give up raiding the demihumans. Their current state would in that case be a result of justice, not injustice.
Prove you cannot be trusted to play nice with your neighbors and you only have yourself to blame when they refuse to trust you.

Frankly, I think the odds of the comic taking the route of "Your ancestors lost a war and therefor deserve all this stuff you and Durkon and all the other good characters are referring to as injustice" can be best described as "zero."

[Rrmcklin]

Something that this thread is bringing to light is that as many good examples of goblinoid life we see in the book material, the online comic itself probably does need some more examples. It's hard for me to see how it is with just the online material because I tend to reread from the books, but a lot of people who don't have them take a look at what the online comic shows and seem to draw vastly different conclusions from what is clearly his intent when you take all material into consideration, and that's probably a sign.

This strikes me as pretty valid criticism/observation. As opposed to just going "the author isn't actually saying what he's made clear he's saying" that seems to crop up with this topic (and others, as well).

[Nomen]

Assuming Thor is telling the truth to the best of his ability my take away is that Durken is mostly right about this being something mortals have to work out between themselves.
The goblins were not created for the explicit purpose of benefiting the good gods by dying.
I actually still think that goblins were still screwed over by their creator. Now its more that R stratagies might work out for a species but it still generally sucks for most if not all the members of the species.
The sad thing is there god might have been right but it still sucks for goblins.
Now I do sort of wonder if the world could be more win win and less winners and losers or not, but 1/3 of the gods are evil so its not even just a matter of sorting out how to make a nicer ecosystem.
I also wonder if there are some details left out which would make the it was on purpose belief carry water.
That being said the good gods should proberly explicitly say that slaughtering a goblin village is morally no different than slaughtering a human village. And while Thor can't offer any help beyond his verbal support without taking a vote, if he wants something from the goblins he can ask his followers to be extra nice to the goblins who aren't trying to kill them

[Emberlily]

This strikes me as pretty valid criticism/observation. As opposed to just going "the author isn't actually saying what he's made clear he's saying" that seems to crop up with this topic (and others, as well).

The impression I get (though I may be wrong!) is the Giant is working on this from his end as time goes on. While there's not much room in the main story to get many glimpses of that sort of thing, we are still seeing a bit with the bugbears (IIRC Oona mentions that the bugbears are stuck at the pole bc the dwarves drove them away from the northern mountains, right?), and How The Paladin Got His Scar is basically

Spoiler

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90 pages built entirely around the fact that hobgoblin lives are worth just as much as human lives, and that evil found in individuals or groups of hobgoblins/humans doesn't those worths at all.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the "good kids rebelling against Usually Evil goblin culture" joke is one that wouldn't remain in place if revisions to old comic storylines ever happened.

Edit: I'm very tired and I forgot what I had meant to actually say. The north pole bugbears seem to be just hunting and protecting the lands they have left rather than being raiders or enslavers.

[Jason]

Frankly, I think the odds of the comic taking the route of "Your ancestors lost a war and therefor deserve all this stuff you and Durkon and all the other good characters are referring to as injustice" can be best described as "zero."

Perhaps, but you think that based on guesses on what you think the author is going to do and where you would like to see the story go, not based on evidence from the comic that disproves this possibility. As far as I can tell nothing has appeared in the comic that would rule out my example being the real truth.

We have an outright denial that the goblins were created just to be XP fodder (at least, not any more than any other humanoid was), and Thor has admitted that currently goblins have generally poorer land and resources, but no one has confirmed or denied that the goblins got only poor land to begin with, or why if they did they have been unable to improve their lot thousands of years later.

[georgie_leech]

Perhaps, but you think that based on guesses on what you think the author is going to do and where you would like to see the story go, not based on evidence from the comic that disproves this possibility. As far as I can tell nothing has appeared in the comic that would rule out my example being the real truth.

We have an outright denial that the goblins were created just to be XP fodder (at least, not any more than any other humanoid was), and Thor has admitted that currently goblins have generally poorer land and resources, but no one has confirmed or denied that the goblins got only poor land to begin with, or why if they did they have been unable to improve their lot thousands of years later.

Tell you what, I'll concede "Your ancestors lost a war and therefor deserve all this stuff you and Durkon and all the other good characters are referring to as injustice" as a possible direction for the story if you can find a single example in the comic of this point of view, wherein it is treated as morally good to mistreat someone based on someone else entirely being less virtuous. Go ahead, I'll wait.

[dancrilis]

I dunno; given the behavior of Gin-Jun in How the Paladin Got His Carand the Sapphire Guard we see in Start of Darkness, it sure does seem like quite a few of them want to kill goblins first and their quest is merely an excuse.

I have a different view of this then other people.

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In SOD the Sapphire Guard thought that 'the goblins' were a threat to the world so they killed them like vermin - and some of them fell.
This caused the Sapphire Guard to engage in some soul searching (and research into the actual problem) and they realised that a) goblins are people and b) the crimson mantle itself was the target.

Older members of the guard still struggled with the realisation that goblins were people and so viewed them as the lowest of people (to do otherwise would likely have forced them to look in the mirror and as Belkar might say they couldn't handle that kind of hardcore intense introspection) but even Gin-Jun indicated he would avoid killing non-combatants and did acknowledge that not all goblins were inherently evil.

Essentially my take is that in SOD the paladins were 'wipe them out all of them - this is a fun trip' where in HTPGHS the paladins were 'it is a dirty job but someone has to do it - but lets make an attempt to at least keep it somewhat focused and clean'.

But I seem to be alone in that.

[danielxcutter]

Spoiler: GDGU

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Gin-Jun pretty much was just making excuses. I don't think there would have been a Guard after O-Chul joined if all of the paladins were like that but it's still clear that more than a few probably shouldn't still be paladins by RAW.

[Ruck]

I have a different view of this then other people.

Spoiler

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In SOD the Sapphire Guard thought that 'the goblins' were a threat to the world so they killed them like vermin - and some of them fell.
This caused the Sapphire Guard to engage in some soul searching (and research into the actual problem) and they realised that a) goblins are people and b) the crimson mantle itself was the target.

Older members of the guard still struggled with the realisation that goblins were people and so viewed them as the lowest of people (to do otherwise would likely have forced them to look in the mirror and as Belkar might say they couldn't handle that kind of hardcore intense introspection) but even Gin-Jun indicated he would avoid killing non-combatants and did acknowledge that not all goblins were inherently evil.

Essentially my take is that in SOD the paladins were 'wipe them out all of them - this is a fun trip' where in HTPGHS the paladins were 'it is a dirty job but someone has to do it - but lets make an attempt to at least keep it somewhat focused and clean'.

But I seem to be alone in that.

Spoiler: HTPGHS

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Yeah, I don't know how you get that for Gin-Jun-- the reluctance of the other paladins to continue once it became clear the Crimson Mantle was not in the hobgoblin village is a point to that, but Gin-Jun was their highest-ranking member and wanted to invade the village even after that became clear. I would be surprised if it was the first time he was that insistent on doing more violence than the situation warranted, and I would be surprised if it was the first time he insisted the Guard needlessly slaughter goblinoids.

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: HTPGHS

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Yeah, I don't know how you get that for Gin-Jun-- the reluctance of the other paladins to continue once it became clear the Crimson Mantle was not in the hobgoblin village is a point to that, but Gin-Jun was their highest-ranking member and wanted to invade the village even after that became clear. I would be surprised if it was the first time he was that insistent on doing more violence than the situation warranted, and I would be surprised if it was the first time he insisted the Guard needlessly slaughter goblinoids.

Spoiler: HTPGHS

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From Gin-Jun's prespective it never became clear it wasn't there - in fact from his prespective it had to be there as believed he had eliminated all other reasonable options.
He was wrong of course - and irrational, but I got the impression that his irrationality was driven by trying to make up for losing the Mantle in his youth.
Had he attacked the Hobgoblin capital and failed to find the Mantle I am not sure if it would have broken him or not as he realised he had no idea where it was and had exausted all his options of finding it.

Compared to the gleeful child murdering Paladin's of SOD I see him as a step up (others disagree), I see the rest of those with him (with the exception of the guy who killed Pangtok) as another step up, and then O-Chul/Hinjo/Lien as another step up (maybe more then one step up).

[Jason]

Tell you what, I'll concede "Your ancestors lost a war and therefor deserve all this stuff you and Durkon and all the other good characters are referring to as injustice" as a possible direction for the story if you can find a single example in the comic of this point of view, wherein it is treated as morally good to mistreat someone based on someone else entirely being less virtuous. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Would you accept the author's commentary in War and XPs where Rich says that what happened to Azure City was, in part at least, justified payback because of the bad actions of the Sapphire Guard, even though it's pretty clear that almost no one in Azure City knew the Sapphire Guard even existed, let alone that they were occasionally exterminating goblin villages?

[Riftwolf]

Fenris: my turn? Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears.
Tyr: You're adding three races in one turn?
Fenris: I've streamlined the creation process.
Thor: Oh me, dare I as-
Fenris: now each goblinoid uses the non-elite array, they can't take Profession or Craft at 1st level, and because Goblins are medium they don't have a strength penalty or dex bonus to calculate!
Odin: *sigh* do you promise to answer their prayers this time?
Fenris: Finished!
Rooster: My turn? Plot-defined prophecies!

[danielxcutter]

Spoiler: HTPGHS

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From Gin-Jun's prespective it never became clear it wasn't there - in fact from his prespective it had to be there as believed he had eliminated all other reasonable options.
He was wrong of course - and irrational, but I got the impression that his irrationality was driven by trying to make up for losing the Mantle in his youth.
Had he attacked the Hobgoblin capital and failed to find the Mantle I am not sure if it would have broken him or not as he realised he had no idea where it was and had exausted all his options of finding it.

Compared to the gleeful child murdering Paladin's of SOD I see him as a step up (others disagree), I see the rest of those with him (with the exception of the guy who killed Pangtok) as another step up, and then O-Chul/Hinjo/Lien as another step up (maybe more then one step up).

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It’s not a big step up to be honest. I’d say that’s less about any positive qualities and more about the SoD paladins’ actions being atrocious.

You don’t actually dispute that Redcloak’s village being slaughtered like that was a bad thing, right? I honestly haven’t been keeping close track of the past few discussions like this so I’m not quite sure.

Would you accept the author's commentary in War and XPs where Rich says that what happened to Azure City was, in part at least, justified payback because of the bad actions of the Sapphire Guard, even though it's pretty clear that almost no one in Azure City knew the Sapphire Guard even existed, let alone that they were occasionally exterminating goblin villages?

Didn’t he say somewhere else that by “karma” he meant “consequences” and not “justice”?

I’m going to need a Summon Banana IX for that, I don’t have any of the books.

[Jason]

Didn’t he say somewhere else that by “karma” he meant “consequences” and not “justice”?

I’m going to need a Summon Banana IX for that, I don’t have any of the books.

I will have to go re-read it myself.
In any case, part of my example was that the evil the ancestors of the goblins willingly participated in only justifies the past treatment of the goblins by the demihuman nations as a threat. The current goblins may be justly viewed as a threat by the current demihuman and human nations because of the current bad behavior of the goblins - raiding human settlements, the awful treatment of humans by the hobgoblins in Azure City/Gobbotopia, and the goblins' support for the plan of their evil god to unleash the Snarl, which threatens the very existence of the world.

Edit: If you really are a threat to others then others are justified in treating you as a threat, regardless of whether you have sympathetic reasons for having become a threat to others.

[Patterned_Pike]

Should he have told all his worshipers "you're not allowed to fight against the Goblins" once Fenris abandoned them? I'm sure that no Goblin would ever go after a Thor worshiper if Thor did that. (Yes, that's sarcasm)

So, no hand waving: what is it that Thor was supposed to do, that you find it unconscionable that he didn't do?

What Thor (and every other "good" God) could and should have done is tell their followers explicitly "Goblinoids are entitled, both individually and as a group, to the rights you extend to any humanoid or demihuman. Defend yourself if they're trying to fight you, hold them accountable if they break your laws in your territory, go to war with their nations under formal declaration if the need arises, but do not treat them as monsters to be hunted."

[danielxcutter]

What Thor (and every other "good" God) could and should have done is tell their followers explicitly "Goblinoids are entitled, both individually and as a group, to the rights you extend to any humanoid or demihuman. Defend yourself if they're trying to fight you, hold them accountable if they break your laws in your territory, go to war with their nations under formal declaration if the need arises, but do not treat them as monsters to be hunted."

I’m not sure if that’d have been guaranteed considering how hard it was for him to convince Durkon and Minrah that trees aren’t evil, but he should have tried yes.

[Emberlily]

The current goblins may be justly viewed as a threat by the current demihuman and human nations because of the current bad behavior of the goblins - raiding human settlements, the awful treatment of humans by the hobgoblins in Azure City/Gobbotopia, and the goblins' support for the plan of their evil god to unleash the Snarl, which threatens the very existence of the world.

First, do we have evidence that goblinoids not under the command of Xykon or Redcloak raid human settlements to any significant degree? I can't remember any, myself.

Second, the Plan isn't a good example because not only does almost no one know what the Plan is outside of goblinkind, almost no one *inside* goblinkind does, either. I think Redcloak, Jirix, and Oona might be the only three still alive who do.

The slavery in Gobbotopia is definitely an evil act done by goblinoids, but again I ask why people are so willing to say this condemns goblinkind when slavery done elsewhere doesn't condemn humans or lizardfolk. Or, to take in some stuff from generic D&D, why people don't tend to say "elves are a threat" bc of the actions of drow societies while people here do say that say "goblins are a threat" bc of the actions of hobgoblin socieities.