OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

[warmachine]

That was getting dangerously close to discussing real world economics and politics.

[dancrilis]

Think Durkon's side is stronger. Thor somewhat comes off a little like "well, we personally didn't do it ourselves, but we stood by and let the god who always did it do his thing per usual." It's not malice, but it's sort of like bystander syndrome.

Picking a fight with him over it at the time of creation is how you get snarls (if multiple pantheons are involved) or how you get infighting (if only a single pantheon is involved - which the good gods might not have won) - and after the world was set then the gods were out of it and the rest is the result of mortal choices (unless the goblins tried to worship gods and were rejected).

Same for how the land is created - Fenris created them somewhere (or else they were placed somewhere post creation) you can say he didn't put much thought into it but from Thor's version even he wasn't acting maliciously with them, and we don't even know that they did get bad land overall (although apparently worse then dwarven land) - the lower half of the Western continent doesn't seem like a resource rich place but the lizardfolk and the humans seem to have made it work.

[Fyraltari]

I agree with what Minrah thinks Thor said. She is precious and must be proctected.


And now I'm off to read the thread. I'm sure there aren't any big dicussions happening right now.

[Ginasius]

I love that Fenrir is wearing Gleipnir, the chain forged from:
The sound of a cat's footfall
The beard of a woman
The roots of a mountain
The sinews of a bear
The breath of a fish
and
The spittle of a bird.

Which makes sense since Tyr is missing a hand.

I assume you are referring to the white band on Fenri*'s hind leg. Thanks for the information. To my eyes it looked like nothing more than a bandage-like band.

[Ionathus]

Picking a fight with him over it at the time of creation is how you get snarls (if multiple pantheons are involved) or how you get infighting (if only a single pantheon is involved - which the good gods might not have won) - and after the world was set then the gods were out of it and the rest is the result of mortal choices (unless the goblins tried to worship gods and were rejected).

Same for how the land is created - Fenris created them somewhere (or else they were placed somewhere post creation) you can say he didn't put much thought into it but from Thor's version even he wasn't acting maliciously with them, and we don't even know that they did get bad land overall (although apparently worse then dwarven land) - the lower half of the Western continent doesn't seem like a resource rich place but the lizardfolk and the humans seem to have made it work.

I don't think anyone's saying Thor should have stopped Fenriʀ from making goblinoids -- I think they're saying Thor & the other Good gods could've ensured equal distribution of resources to everyone, or more actively sponsored them as deities, once goblinoids were created and then abandoned. He admits it himself at the top of the second page here: "We didn't really plan it that way on purpose...but I guess we didn't really prevent it either."

Also, the jury's really out on whether or not the southern half of the Western continent is actually "making it work" -- see how people are treated under Tarquin's regime, for instance.

[mjasghar]

If they can’t patch the world the possibility of snarl world being given to the goblins seems more likely.

[Dragonus45]

Picking a fight with him over it at the time of creation is how you get snarls (if multiple pantheons are involved) or how you get infighting (if only a single pantheon is involved - which the good gods might not have won) - and after the world was set then the gods were out of it and the rest is the result of mortal choices (unless the goblins tried to worship gods and were rejected).

Same for how the land is created - Fenris created them somewhere (or else they were placed somewhere post creation) you can say he didn't put much thought into it but from Thor's version even he wasn't acting maliciously with them, and we don't even know that they did get bad land overall (although apparently worse then dwarven land) - the lower half of the Western continent doesn't seem like a resource rich place but the lizardfolk and the humans seem to have made it work.

The Humans and Lizardfolk don't have Fenris' bad ideas of what should make a race "outcompete" though. They are going to have a high population with a high resource demand and a need to expansion to survive, then they wound up dropped into resource poor areas that would disproportionately affect them. Incidentally that situation also demand they get those resources most likely and easily through violence. For an evil god who wants to create a race that "outcompetes" as he put it it makes a scary amount of sense, for all that is is a very E Evil thing to do. Doesn't remotely justify the kind of genocide and violence Redcloak his plan deal in and adds even more suspicion to the Dark Ones "I was just a friendly good friend all along and then they stabbed me in the back" story though.

[Souju]

Very surprised that Redcloak is not essentially right on this. On the other hand, when the Dark One was raised the other gods attempted to convince him that everything was actually fair, and their arguments weren't very convincing. It's possible that Thor is kinda doing the same here, but the vibe I get from this comic is that Thor is being both truthful and accurate.

I dunno, I just think the less right Redcloak is about the goblinoid question, the less of a compelling villain he is. And I'm not sure that's for the best. But still, let's see how this goes - I doubt we've heard the last on this topic.

Here's how I see it: Redcloak and the Dark One aren't wrong, per se, they just misinterpreted the same information. Or rather, the Dark One took the same information Durkon just received and jumped to another conclusion (for the purposes of stats, the Dark One's wisdom and int probably aren't as high as durkon's).

The way he sees it: Goblins were made by the gods. Goblins are weaker and have a disadvantage against other races. The gods need strong souls to survive. Therefore, it makes sense to someone used to duplicity and trickery (to the point even paladins used duplicity and trickery one him) that goblins were designed as EXP fodder. Doesn't help that, as Thor said, they refuse to intervene directly to "correct" inequalities even if the inequality was an oversight made by a capricious god.
He also suffers from a problem of perspective: He is/was a goblin. He was raised by goblins, fought with goblins, and is worshiped by goblins. Even the other races he hangs with are goblinoid. He's going to be less inclined to see the "big picture" of creation because it doesn't really affect him or his worshipers. He's a pantheon of one representing a pretty singular group.
Meanwhile, remember the Godsmoot? How many races, both core and obscure, were present there? Both Thor and Odin are there talking to Durkon during Commune, and their high priestesses are a dwarf and a human respectively.
While it's pretty narrow towards "player races," the other pantheons having more diversity in terms of culture due to being made by gods who actually put thought into these things (Fenrir/Fenris seems less inclined to actually do that) means that the general perspectives are going to be wider. A human cleric of odin and a dwarven cleric of thor will have different perspectives beyond religion, but be connected by being within the same pantheon. They'll influence each other.

Dark One? Ain't got that. Redcloak's basically a super-clergy of one for a pantheon of one.

[Ionathus]

Dark One? Ain't got that.

This is a really good point. As Thor mentioned before (and Loki's planar emissaries learned firsthand), TDO is definitely isolated from the other gods & races. We've been shown how that prevents easy communication and conflict resolution, but I really hadn't thought through how it would make TDO himself more fixated on the goal and unwilling to compromise or hear other viewpoints.

[Morty]

Even if the gods didn't intentionally create goblin races as XP fodder, the "civilized" ones certainly don't seem to have many qualms against treating them as acceptable targets. The situation is still what it is. What was removed is the option of the gods just changing their minds about it and making it right.

[Ginasius]

I concurr with Thor that I don't think the goblin problem is that unique, not only from the fictional point of view of an OOTSverse god, but also from a metafictional point of view.

Most fictional universes and multiverses in which there is a gods/mortals dichotomy show mortals living in an essentially unfair, or at least seemingly unfair, world. The very fact that in those worlds there are some immortal and extremely powerful beings sharing the universe with a lot of other much less immortal and powerful beings looks unfair.

That does not endorse mortals to believe that the gods who made them are necessarily unjust or evil because of it. Especially if those gods are not as omnipotent as, for example, Eru Iluvatar was in Tolkien's fictional universe.

The gods could have created a universe that feeds on the suffering of lesser beings in a much more efficient and inescapable manner, in the style of Ursula K. LeGuin's story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas." The very fact that the OOTS goblins have gained the ability to rebel against this is a sign that the system is not purposefully unfair.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, put me in the “the gods didn’t literally make them to just be PC fodder but I don’t think it matters at this point” camp too. Durkon just talked back to his own god.

[Gift Jeraff]

However, this reading of goblinoid creation does bolster the possibility that maybe the Rat/Tiamat/Loki axis is, in fact, deliberately manipulating TDO.

Keep in mind Loki is compelled to constantly lie due to mortal beliefs, so the Dark One getting an inaccurate retelling of events wasn't necessarily part of some scheme between the other 3 evil gods. It's just in their nature to paint the good gods as in the wrong.

[Fyraltari]

So, I've got to point out that if the gods can't make big changes to creation once a world is created, then the Bet can't be called off.

So Fenris made the goblins, but they don't worship him any longer? Does Fenris have any opinions on this? Does it make him weaker?

Also, why do the goblins live outside the Northern Pantheon's demesne if a NP god created them?

Because they take turn determining specific aspects of all of the world, not just their spot.

Anyway, the natural order of things is the stronger eating the weaker

No, it's not. Humans are stronger than worms.

Minrah is having a Belkar moment.

Not enough bodily harm.

And yes obviously the solution to the Fenrir/Fenris problem is to write it as "Fenriʀ", with a kind of retroflex z transitioning into r.

I'm going to call him Fensir and you can't stop me.

It's also true that at least some of the gods hate goblins. Don't have the strip number memorized, but one of Thor's illustrative flashbacks has a god dismissively calling the Dark One "that goblin" in a context suggesting that him being a goblin makes negotiating with him beneath that god's dignity.

Here ya go. I find the implied identity of that god in relation to what we've just learned about the origins of goblins rather interesting, I've got to say.

Wow. The comic didn't shy away from moral dilemmas before, but this is larger than anything else.

Unequal starting conditions, repeated over multiple generations, leading to grave injustices. No evil plan behind it, just ignorance of the people in power. With no clear solution in sight. I'm kind of interested in seeing how this will be resolved.

If you haven't already (and can afford it), may I suggest purchasing Start of Darkness?

It seems to be roughly the standard

Does it? We know Dvalin didn't create the dwarves despite being their ethnic god, for example.
[QUOTE=TerrickTerran;25016672]I realize it amuses me that most of the Dwarves have the Scottish accent but Thor and Odin none at all.[/QUOTE
Why would they? I'm more surprized that Dvalin doesn't, myself.

the Dark Ones "I was just a friendly good friend all along and then they stabbed me in the back" story though.

I mean, Redcloak's story describes him as a warlord who marshalled the greatest military force ever before negotiating. It's less "I was just a friendly good friend all along" and more "Let's consider violence plan B."

[dancrilis]

I think they're saying Thor & the other Good gods could've ensured equal distribution of resources to everyone, or more actively sponsored them as deities, once goblinoids were created and then abandoned.

An equal distribution for everyone is difficult to quantify.

Take the Dwarf-Goblin potential conflict assume goblins outnumber dwarves, so if both races are given the same amount of food and metal the Dwarves end up well fed and heavily armoured and the goblins end up poorly fed and lightly armoured.

Ignoring that Fenris might have created dozens or hundreds of races while Thor was instilling honour into the dwarves, or while another Njord was creating a coastline - giving everyone equal resources might seriously benefit evil races who are more populace in the monster manual and also more likely to try and seize additional resources anyway.

[Dragonus45]

Even if the gods didn't intentionally create goblin races as XP fodder, the "civilized" ones certainly don't seem to have many qualms against treating them as acceptable targets. The situation is still what it is. What was removed is the option of the gods just changing their minds about it and making it right.

It really does change things though, without a divine mandate of slaughter on goblins as explicit tools for exp gain the situation with Azure City and the goblin nations next to it instead now looks like what all the rest of history looks like. Two nations and cultures next to each other who rather hate each other, with a long history of border conflict and wars, which is a very very different situation. That kind of thing can be much more easily solved, or it could be if Redcloack wasn't insistent in his belief that the only way to make things better is a grand plan to hold a gun to the gods heads.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Whoa, this is interesting. The "Is Thor morally justified" threads may well take their place alongside the ones about V or Miko. An intriguing exploration of racism with no clear way out.

On another note, it seems that Fenrir/s, as the Northern god of monsters, only created goblinoids. Tiamat probably created the kobolds and lizardfolk, though perhaps she's paid more attention to the kobolds. So is there a southern god of monsters? And if so, what might they have created?

[Gift Jeraff]

Whoa, this is interesting. The "Is Thor morally justified" threads may well take their place alongside the ones about V or Miko. An intriguing exploration of racism with no clear way out.

On another note, it seems that Fenrir/s, as the Northern god of monsters, only created goblinoids. Tiamat probably created the kobolds and lizardfolk, though perhaps she's paid more attention to the kobolds. So is there a southern god of monsters? And if so, what might they have created?

We saw a ratfolk or something at the Southern Godsmoot.

[georgie_leech]

No, it's not. Humans are stronger than worms.

I mean, we can and do eat worms. Not generally going out and eating them out of the ground says more about our feelings about sanitary conditions and our ability to be choosy, than it does about whether they work as food. I mean, just because we generally don't eat wizened dirty apples, doesn't mean we don't eat apples.

[danielxcutter]

Keep in mind Loki is compelled to constantly lie due to mortal beliefs, so the Dark One getting an inaccurate retelling of events wasn't necessarily part of some scheme between the other 3 evil gods. It's just in their nature to paint the good gods as in the wrong.

It seems in-character for Loki reframe the narrative just enough to get an ally against the other Good gods.

Guess that bit him in the ass, didn’t it?

So, I've got to point out that if the gods can't make big changes to creation once a world is created, then the Bet can't be called off.

Hel is a bitch, but getting stuck with it for millions of years if TDO joins up is a moderate “oof” moment.

It’s only moderate because she’d probably still be a NE edgy death goddess anyways, but still.

Because they take turn determining specific aspects of all of the world, not just their spot.

Remember how Monkey decided that this world would have ninjas with his turn? Yeah.

No, it's not. Humans are stronger than worms.

I’m pretty sure there’s an early bird joke in there somewhere.

Not enough bodily harm.

Heh.

I'm going to call him Fensir and you can't stop me.

Am I missing a reference?

Here ya go. I find the implied identity of that god in relation to what we've just learned about the origins of goblins rather interesting, I've got to say.

...Huh.

If you haven't already (and can afford it), may I suggest purchasing Start of Darkness?

Man, I should get around to that some day.

Does it? We know Dvalin didn't create the dwarves despite being their ethnic god, for example.

Not sure if he counts much as ethnic in the first place. An ethnic god, maybe. Dunno.

I realize it amuses me that most of the Dwarves have the Scottish accent but Thor and Odin none at all.

Why would they? I'm more surprized that Dvalin doesn't, myself.

I think Rich mentioned that Thor isn’t specifically a dwarf god, he’s just popular with them.

I mean, Redcloak's story describes him as a warlord who marshalled the greatest military force ever before negotiating. It's less "I was just a friendly good friend all along" and more "Let's consider violence plan B."

Yeah, it’s probably more nuanced than his narrative. Likely close enough for the basics to be the same, at least, and it’d probably have been better for many people if he hadn’t been assassinated then.

Incidentally, I wonder if goblinoid discrimination was always as much of a thing back then, or if the PC races used TDO’s campaign as an excuse to double down on that.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, we can and do eat worms. Not generally going out and eating them out of the ground says more about our feelings about sanitary conditions and our ability to be choosy, than it does about whether they work as food. I mean, just because we generally don't eat wizened dirty apples, doesn't mean we don't eat apples.

But worms often eat humans was my point.

[Windscion]

But worms often eat humans was my point.

Well, worms find us yummier than we do them. Can we all agree on that?

[georgie_leech]

But worms often eat humans was my point.

Generally when we're at or most physically infirm but point taken.

[Emberlily]

This comic has brought up some information on something I've been wondering since the reveal that there's been countless worlds made.

So goblins aren't in every world (Fenrir does it when it's fantasy-themed only), but they are in enough that green goblins being medium this time was notable. But what about, say, elves? There's evidence of worlds without elves entirely (snack food world), but are they usually involved in worlds, or only brought up in fantasy worlds like goblins are, or something else? I've wondered for a while if the elven gods mentioned to have been raised during this world are an anomaly or if we often get, say, elven gods who only stick around for a couple worlds before passing on.

And what about humans? This world seems to have humans be the most cosmopolitan and among the most populous species, but are humans a special species that shows up more than elves or goblins in general, or is it just this world that is vaguely human-centric? Most gods we see outside of the southern pantheon seem humanesque in shape, but that doesn't say much since gods' form is dictated by the belief of the world they're in.

[Fyraltari]

Hel is a bitch, but getting stuck with it for millions of years if TDO joins up is a moderate “oof” moment.

I, uh, was thinking about the dwarves stuck with her.

It’s only moderate because she’d probably still be a NE edgy death goddess anyways, but still.

I mean, Loki seems to think she's in serious danger of starving to death even if the world blows up.

Am I missing a reference?

Nah, I just think I'm funny. Specifically, I thought it'd be funny to react to the Fernris/r thing by picking a spelling that's just plain wrong and that while I'm at it I should do so by replacing the other r by an s.

[Syoban]

OH. So every time they start a new world, Fenris tries to ZERG RUSH it!

[Shale]

It really does change things though, without a divine mandate of slaughter on goblins as explicit tools for exp gain the situation with Azure City and the goblin nations next to it instead now looks like what all the rest of history looks like. Two nations and cultures next to each other who rather hate each other, with a long history of border conflict and wars, which is a very very different situation. That kind of thing can be much more easily solved, or it could be if Redcloack wasn't insistent in his belief that the only way to make things better is a grand plan to hold a gun to the gods heads.

But there is a divine mandate for Azurites to slaughter goblins, as seen by the fact that their paladins, who may only use lethal force in accordance with a divine mandate, slaughter goblins on the regular. The fact that it's merely a specific case of the general principle that the gods need the sentient races to be in constant conflict either with each other or potent non-sentient beings in order to generate XP doesn't matter to the goblins getting slaughtered. And while the gods haven't explicitly decreed that goblins aren't allowed to fight back, they created the world such that goblins would lack the tools to fight back.

[CountDVB]

What does it mean that he made the green ones medium? Are they supposed to be larger than other goblins now, because they look the same size?

Goblins are usually a Small creature while the Hobgoblins are Medium-sized. Though they actually remind me of the Verdan in that sense.

[MoiMagnus]

Whether or not oppression/injustice is intentional isn't particularly comforting from the viewpoint of the oppressed.

Intentionality is relevant if one want to attribute blame and punitive justice, which is only important to prevent similar situations from arising again in future worlds, if any.
(Fenrir is here a negligent parent for creating a sentient specie but not taking responsibilities as a creator, and the remaining of the gods failed to provide "child protective services" to the Goblinoids, when they didn't made things worse by the system they build)

But as for actually solving the current oppression problem, yeah, intentionality and "who is to blame?" is not relevant.

[danielxcutter]

This comic has brought up some information on something I've been wondering since the reveal that there's been countless worlds made.

So goblins aren't in every world (Fenrir does it when it's fantasy-themed only), but they are in enough that green goblins being medium this time was notable. But what about, say, elves? There's evidence of worlds without elves entirely (snack food world), but are they usually involved in worlds, or only brought up in fantasy worlds like goblins are, or something else? I've wondered for a while if the elven gods mentioned to have been raised during this world are an anomaly or if we often get, say, elven gods who only stick around for a couple worlds before passing on.

And what about humans? This world seems to have humans be the most cosmopolitan and among the most populous species, but are humans a special species that shows up more than elves or goblins in general, or is it just this world that is vaguely human-centric? Most gods we see outside of the southern pantheon seem humanesque in shape, but that doesn't say much since gods' form is dictated by the belief of the world they're in.

I mean they’ve been through like a gazillion worlds and Thor said that this one was kind of scraping the barrel when it came to originality. So yeah.

[QUOTE=Fyraltari;25016770]I, uh, was thinking about the dwarves stuck with her.

...Oh right. That’s a given for sure.

Honestly at this point everyone loses the Bet more or less. Jeez, Loki.

I mean, Loki seems to think she's in serious danger of starving to death even if the world blows up.

Considering that she almost faded away in this world I’d say she’s in danger already.

Nah, I just think I'm funny. Specifically, I thought it'd be funny to react to the Fernris/r thing by picking a spelling that's just plain wrong and that while I'm at it I should do so by replacing the other r by an s.

Ah.

OH. So every time they start a new world, Fenris tries to ZERG RUSH it!

That... seems to be literally the case, yes.

But there is a divine mandate for Azurites to slaughter goblins, as seen by the fact that their paladins, who may only use lethal force in accordance with a divine mandate, slaughter goblins on the regular. The fact that it's merely a specific case of the general principle that the gods need the sentient races to be in constant conflict either with each other or potent non-sentient beings in order to generate XP doesn't matter to the goblins getting slaughtered. And while the gods haven't explicitly decreed that goblins aren't allowed to fight back, they created the world such that goblins would lack the tools to fight back.

Didn’t Rich say something about some of the paladins who slaughtered Redcloak’s village did fall? Not that it really changes much, of course.